f13.net

...and shoot seventeen of their own fans (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article4240396.ece).

On the upside, I think we definitely have to count this as a French military victory.  After several centuries, it looks like they're back on a roll.  Unless a German in the audience ran out and beat crap out of them in response.

:uhrr:

I guess this is a case of people being so sure of what they are doing that they stop thinking about it, and get sloppy.

Honestly that seems more than sloppy. The guy loaded live rounds he had left over from an earlier training exercise, I don't know for sure but I'd guess French rules aren't that much more lax than British army regulations and you're meant to turn over all rounds when you leave a training area. There doesn't seem to be any reason he even had them besides either being too lazy to take them out of his kit and then not noticing they were still there when he packed the other mags or being so stupidly cocky that he figured he simply wouldn't possibly load them.

If he didn't do it on purpose it was criminal negligence, though I guess maybe you meant sloppy as a bit of an understatement. Still the whole thing is  :uhrr: and  :ye_gods:

They should've color coded the mags Die Hard 2-style.

I thought it was standard to use different colour magazines and a modified tip.

Also, it seems odd he was able to off so many people before noticing there was an issue.

Edit...

Yeah sloppy was an understatement. What I meant is that having done a routine so many times you stop thinking about it; it's inexcusable but I can understand how it could happen. I doubt the guy even looks at what he was loading into his weapon, because he had done it so many times before it was just automatic. Why he had the live rounds is the real issue here, that's highly questionable. In the British Army taking live rounds away from an exercise is a criminal offense, and all soldiers leaving a range have to make a declaration to an officer that they have no ammuntion on their person. There's also amnesties for rounds found later (bottom of pouches and kit, it happens). To take a fully loaded magazine of live rounds seems very suspicious.

Minor point too, if the exercise objective was to shoot and kill the single soldier acting as a terrorist; he really failed by shooting so many of the hostages and missing the target.

This guy is supposedly a veteran and highly trained.  I don't know how he could hit 17 people, including children, 'accidentally'.

He's verteran French military?

I'd like to laugh at that, but the only reason I'm even attempting levity is because of how sad this is.

Meh, the French are always getting involved in little things here and there.  They talk a lot of crap about the US putting their nose in, but the French are only barely in second place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deployments_of_the_French_military

What I don't understand is how he could have just swapped to a magazine of blank rounds that easily. Does the FAMAS not use a blank firing adapter? If it does, then he would've had to take the BFA off in order for any of his rounds to leave the barrel.

Because having a few thousand troops in Kosovo as part of a NATO peacekeeping force or running anti-piracy operations off the Somali coast is exactly the same thing as 'putting their nose in' like the US is doing in the Middle East.

Y'know, I was thinking about this last night - along Oban's lines -  and one of the things that hit me was the complete LACK of gun respect demonstrated.  The few times I've ever been around guns the #1 rule has ALWAYS been "treat every gun as if it is loaded."  the #2 rule has always been "never, EVER point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot."

Yeah, yeah, military exercise.  Also: a civilian demonstration, so the actual pointing of weapons shouldn't be allowed.  Even with blanks, you get deaths.  See: Brandon Lee.

It just seems a casual disregard to gun safety in general to wave the weapons around and rip off 'blank' rounds at anyone.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

Even red names are dickheads on F13!   :awesome_for_real:

Someone needs to do some reading and stop with the arrogant opinion that America is the only player in other people's sandboxes. If anything, we learned to do it by watching the French (and the British... and, well, the list is very long).

EDIT: Me thinks this thread should be in Politics.

Also, by "sandboxes", I don't necessarily mean the Middle East. Africa, Southeast Asia... hell, just about the whole world has someone else playing in their sandbox.

Well, I suppose the immediate thought that came to mind was Napoleon Bonaparte.

Then say what you mean rather than some fucked up generalisation about the 'French putting their noses in' and stop with the conflating if you don't want to get called on it.

And Brogarn, fuck you. I didn't say the US was the only country playing in other people's sandboxes, I'm just pointing out the the idiocy of Murgos' statement where he apparently has trouble reconciling French opposition to the illegal US military actions in the Middle East with their involvement in NATO/UN peacekeeping missions around the world.

Hay guyz those crazy imperialists the Irish are also deployed abroad! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Army#Current_Deployments)

Hey, here's a thought.  Why don't you pay attention to the context of the conversation?

Fucking troll.

edit just to be explicit:

I never said any such thing.  You made that up.

I pointed out that the french have forces deployed around the world and hence the word 'VETERAN' was appropriate.  As you said, I made a general comment about the French being annoyed at US interfering, I never made any correlation to scale or any particular act or even correctness of allegation. The French do have a long history of butting in where they deem fit with or without UN backing and they do have troops deployed around the globe, get over yourself.

?

(http://www.clisham.com-a.googlepages.com/Jean-ClaudeVanDamme3z.jpg)

What? Your comment on French overseas involvement was a complete non-sequitur. What 'context' am I supposed to pay attention to? Before that everyone was talking about how a veteran soldier could mistake a live magazine for a blank one. And yet I'm trolling...

Exactly what you said:


If that doesn't translate to  "Well the French only play a small, insignificant and well behaved part in world politics while those damn Americans are putting their noses in other people's business where it doesn't belong" then what, exactly, does it translate to?

Actually, they are in a lot of places, current French Military Deployments:

(http://www.clisham.com-a.googlepages.com/Picture2.png)

Hve to say Iain is right on this one: Murgos tried to make an absolutely hilariously bad attempt at tu quoque (which I actually thought was a troll at first), Iain called him on it (albeit inwhat was, frankly, too cliched an anti-American tone for comfort).  What's to say?  Except that the French would be intervening in a similarly active and self-interested manner if they hadn't had Algeria and Dien Bien Phu.

The list of French military deployments Murgos linked to would only support the stated theory if you know sweet fuck all about current IR and the backstory behind each.

Edit: Oops.. Murgos vilified, Brogarn vindicated

Endie? Go back and read through the thread while slowly identifying name to post. It'll help your post make far more sense.

EDIT: I'll be specific: I didn't link to anything.

Fucking Scots.

Well, they're also opening up bases in the middle east now. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekinreview/27sciolino.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/Q/Qaddafi,%20Muammar%20El-)

Also, I can't believe I'm contributing to this cluster fuck.

I keep thinking this thread is in Politics......or even Denned.

Ah yep, I meant Murgos, of course.   Post corrected.

Remember that most of the French forces in Africa and South America are from the Foreign Legion. I'm fairly certain that the ones in South America are just there to guard the EU's space program crap. A launch site or something. Not sure why they are in Africa, but I know the Legion has been there for quite some time. Like their whole existence.

Well, he certainly killed the idea that men get better looking as they get older, didn't he. 

ha ha ha.

17 people, and not one death.

Crazy former marine in a clock tower = 16

French paratrooper = 0

Nope.  I said what I said which is that French troops get plenty of experience around the world even though they look down their noses when the US does it, UN, NATO or any other condition.  I said dick all about Iraq or international politics due to Iraq.  They rest is just Iain (and now you) making up what you want because it soothes your soul or something.

FUCK YOU ALL FOR BRINGING POLITICS OUT FROM THE FERMENTED SEMEN COVERED HELL HOLE!

Apparently it has a lever that serves the same purpose, by choking off most of the barrel in front of the action.  Fire live rounds with that in place, and the action would explode.  So this guy was either really stupid, or really crazy.  Seems unlikely you'd switch from one mode to another so often that you'd have reloading back to live down to a reflex you wouldn't notice.  But then, the FAMAS is the only NATO weapon i've heard of that does that, maybe they do enough "warning burst" scenarios when deployed that it really would become reflex.

FAMAS G2 actually looks like a pretty nice gun.  Is there anyone in NATO besides us still not using a bullpup design?

(http://picasaweb.google.com/mahrinskel/CoolPics/photo#5218295279646076258)

--Dave

And one of them was a 3 year old boy shot once through the heart and again in the arm. Seriously, what sort of assault rifle can't kill a toddler with multiple hits, one of them being through the heart?

That aside, thank goodness no one was killed. And it shouldn't matter how often you participate in something like this. You should be triple checking every bullet in every clip out of paranoia of Murphy's Law if nothing else.

The German H&K assault rifles are of the more traditional design and are widely used in various armies. E.g. Norway just selected the HK416 (essentially an improved version of the US M4) as their standard assault rifle.

Canada still uses some sort of rifle that very much resembles the M16 visual style of rifle.

That HK416 is supposed to be a great improvement over the M4. I think the one biggest improvement that could be made is that we switch from direct gas to a pistol driven design for our service rifle.

Also, I was in Djibouti training with the Foreign Legion and I can vouch for the FAMAS being crap. And their boots. Actually, all their kit was garbage.

I guess it's just me liking bullpups, then.  Got to fire a Steyr AUG once and fell in love, the handling of a carbine without giving up the muzzle velocity.

--Dave

I have never fired a bullpup, but I have always hated the look of them. FUGLY.

We use the C8 Assault Rifle. Couldn't tell you what the difference is, but apparently it works well for us. Y'know, when we use it.

(http://www.cybershooters.org/dgca/images/M4/C8A1.JPG)

It's an M4 clone, also made by Colt.  I expect any differences are trivial.  The one you picture there has an M203 grenade launcher mounted (or some extremely close equivalent).
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/M4A1_ACOG.jpg)

--Dave

To Wikipedia! : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C8_Rifle

Heh, he's not French, he's Belgian. ;)

(http://www.clisham.com-a.googlepages.com/1182195189_6305259429.01.lzzzzzzz.jpg)