f13.net

Back in the late 90s

new golden age

Most of them will be console abortions.

Console RPGs often have great stories. Sadly, it seems that PC RPGs spend too much time on the graphics engine or making virtual giant sandboxes to play in. The game experience suffers.

Oh, and there will really never be another Golden Age until something is as good as Planescape: Torment, am i rite?

Oh, Rasix, don't you know anything? Knights of the Old Republic was hated by critics and players alike, and I'm sure the sequel as well as Jade Empire (designed by the same team) will suXXor just as hard.

If that isn't sarcasm, it really should be.

Consoles have a great place in the world of RPGs.

 It's a pretty sad statement when recycled anime save-the-world-from-the-bloated-robot-demon plots are the best in the genre.

or making virtual giant sandboxes to play in. The game experience suffers.

And yes, many console RPGs have been rocking, not neccessarily because they're on consoles (which have both good and bad games), and not neccessarily because they are RPGs on a console (there have been bad console RPGs), but because a much higher portion of PC games are goddamn clones (and therefore I often turn to consoles for innovation).

I'll put aside the entire Final Fantasy series and we are still left with Alundra, Shenmue, Chrono Trigger & Cross, Earthbound, Vandal Hearts, Skies of Arcadia, Super Mario RPG, Parasite Eve.  I won't say they have better stories than the PC games you listed, but apart from System Shock 2 and Fallout, the console RPG's consistently engage me more than any RPG's on the PC.  Personal taste does play a big role, I admit.

God forbid there be some incredibly useable input device like the Phantom mouse/keyboard combo that works for a console as well as that input works for a PC, because some of the more traditional PC-only flavor games like FPS and RTS may only make the transition to console-first or exclusive.

http://www.lik-sang.com/news.php?artc=3495

an idoit

Here's one example that makes everything you've said 110% gobblegook: Planetscape: Torment.

Planescape aside

but not ever actually played them.

I'd take the storylines in Chrono-foo or the modern Final Fantasy incarnations over the recycled PC stuff any day.

I'm not going to let a game that came out in 199freaking9 be the saving grace of PC RPGs.

You missed Zelda, heretic.

I have to say this. My biggest issue with your typical console RPG is the combat system. I am so tired of the Square-Enix turn-based combat. Random encounter turn-based combat. Things like Fable, Zelda, and KOTR/Jade Empire appeal to me much more. I do like most console stories even if they are a bit heavy on the angst. (And alot repetitive.)

On PC I love RPGs, especially the old Bioware/Black Isle ones.

Speaking of, does anyone have any good suggestions on old RPGs that can still be played?

RPGs I own or are currently on my system:
Baldur's Gate: The whole damn thing
Morrowind
Fallout 1&2
Septerra Core
Arx Fatalis
Gothic 1&2
Darklands
Planescape: Torment

I never got the Icewind Dales games because I heard they were light on the RPG and more big munchkin combat generators.

[Sir, there is a serious RPG omission above:  Vampire the Masquerade.  Outside of Fallout, one of my favorite games :)

Septerra Core was a goddamned waste of money.

I have to say this. My biggest issue with your typical console RPG is the combat system. I am so tired of the Square-Enix turn-based combat. Random encounter turn-based combat. Things like Fable, Zelda, and KOTR/Jade Empire appeal to me much more.

Septerra Core was a goddamned waste of money.

I'm still pissed Beyond Good and Evil didn't sell more copies. I want a sequel dammit! Same with Gladius for the XBOX a game I find highly enjoyable in Coop mode with my friends.

Agreed. That was one of the worst RPGs I've ever played.  God, I think I got about half way through before I thought to myself, "this game just isn't going to get better".   The combat was so so horrible.

Kotor was definately approaching ridiculously boring combat. I'll play through a turnbased if the story intrigues me (i.e. what I'm playing now, Persona: Nocturne). But, the Star Wars Universe? No, and No. Overrated, oversold, no longer original.

This thread got me to install BG again. I've finished it twice before, though BG2 always gets me to with the amount of..dungron hacking in chapter 2.  Mabye I'll finish the series this time.

Oh! We say this now months after I stated here that KotOR was boring, smelly old ass with cliche story and mind-numbing combat. Sure, flame Soukyan now and jump on his bandwagon later when the smoke clears. ;)

Quite honestly, I never enjoyed the Baldur's Gate series of games (blasphemy, I know... I'll burn in hell I'm sure *yawn*)

If you can't stagger in drunk and belligerent, don't stagger in at all

Morrowind was near perfection for me.  It just had one major sticking point that dragged the whole game down:

I read so many good things about KOTOR. I bought it for XBox when it dropped to $20. I popped it in XBox to load it up, and started to read the manuel. I did not like the combat system that was shown me.

I read so many good things about KOTOR.  I bought it for XBox when it dropped to $20.  I popped it in XBox to load it up, and started to read the manuel.  I did not like the combat system that was shown me.  Before even letting the opening movie finish, I ejected it.  Ended up giving it to a friend.

It was a newbie lesson learned to not assume the combat system.  What can I say, I was high from Morrowind still.

I didn't like Morrowind's combat (stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, I wonder how much health this guy has left, stab, stab).

I liked KotOR's system, fast and fluid and you could pause it to give out order queues. It's one of the better non-twitch systems I've seen.

 Other than that, the storylines in the Fallouts and the Black Isle spawn are pretty much of the 'kill the foozle, get the shiny, repeat, kill the archmage, yay' variety.

it's almost painful

Sweet lord it's been so long since I played it I completely forgot you didn't have the health bar on enemies. That was horrific. That and cliff racers still haunt my nightmares.

1) Walk up to where a big bad fight is about to happen.
2) Quicksave.
3) Begin fight.
4) Failed saving throw!  Party wiped out.  Quickload
5) Repeat steps 3-4 until battle is successful.
6) Progress plotline.

.  Of course, the original storyline scenario that comes bundled with the game sucks.    However, the first expansion kicked so much ass that when I finished it a few times through I still had enough inertia to go back and complete the original storyline.

Is there one where I can sell shit to people for a decent price instead of whatever the bastard shopowners keep in their mattress? Hocking my finds was one of the most annoying things I dealt with outside of normal combat.

and will soon start a "premium modules" service where they sell modules made by the Bioware team online (sort of like how Guild Wars will be doing things).

[
Didn't they already try this with Witch's Wake (good mod, good plot) and it petered out after one episode?

I can only think of one or two major battles that went that way. Most battles went fairly easy for me. Probably had to do with my party mix or something.

Surely you're not talking about Shadows of Urentide? That expansion sucked. Hard.

Maybe your party was better decked out than mine, but that was how it happened to me during any major confontation.

I guess it's a matter of opinion.

I bought Hoardes of the Underdark.  Once of these days I plan to make the time to play it, but I was disappointed to discover it didn't have multiplayer support.   There's work arounds but those are PITAs.

Wow, that's unprecendented.  You could have at least tried ONE battle to see what you thought.  I've never heard of someone tossing a game b/c of the way the manual made it sound.  I would have wagered most gamers don't even read the things anyway b/c learning by doing is much more appeal than learning by reading.

What can I say, I am familiar enough with the combat system to know I don't what to even waste a moment of my time.  I don't like dicks in my ass, so I know not to even bother with the latest version of dick-in-ass.  It was a mistake on my part that got me to the point of purchase.

I am refering to the turn based aspects, party aspects, and exchanged damage.

What else do I need to do to get it to painful?

maybe console games have more memoriable charecters?

They totally do.  Have I told you about my Cloud Strife lunchbox?

Console RPGs vary quite a bit, but truly there are a lot of Final fantasy-Esque ones out there.

Then you run into gems like Wizardry: Tales Of The Forgotten Land (http://www.gametab.com/ps2/wizardry.tale.of.the.forsaken.land/2625/) or Disgaea - Hour Of Darkness (http://www.gametab.com/ps2/disgaea.hour.of.darkness/1664/) (which you might argue is more of a strategy game) that show that there's more to console RPGs than Final Fantasy imitation.   Heck, even Squaresoft themselves (now known as Square-Enix) came up with some interesting deviations from the standard Final Fantasy-esque game mechanic, such as The Secret Of Mana/Sword Of Mana (http://www.gametab.com/gba/sword.of.mana/2152/), Kingdom Hearts, and Parasite Eve.

They totally do.  Have I told you about my Cloud Strife lunchbox?

As for party and exchanged damage...umm..so you're saying you don't like RPG combat?

Console RPGs more frequently lock you into a character, tho.  You typically have relatively little control over the class or abilities of your characters, especially the main character.  The game is the story of that character, which the game company came up with.  In PC RPGs, you typically have more control (imho), and the game is the story of your character, whom YOU came up with.

I just don't like watching the characters in front of me play.  This is often a linear path, with hard numbers.  Combat is usually a trading of blows, and required damage.  Roll-Playing, as Shannow said(*points to sig*). .

I enjoy living a life as the character, making decisions as I think the character would do.  Player skill plays a role, but numbers run in the background.  Roleplaying, imo.  Imagination and non-linear gameplay often are seen.  It adheres by the rule "never force the player to take damage."  Examples of this would be Morrowind, UO, and Darkfall(though UO is somewhat a mix, with spells/arrows that will always hit) .

I just don't like watching the characters in front of me play.  This is often a linear path, with hard numbers.  Combat is usually a trading of blows, and required damage.  Roll-Playing, as Shannow said(*points to sig*).  Stats are more important then player skill and the imagination that the player brings to the table. This makes up a large part of the RPG market, but not all of it.  Examples would be EQ, AO, and Final Fantasy.

Combat is usually a trading of blows, and required damage.

Ok, so in a console or PC RPG game that you would like, how would combat be handle if you choose to pursue it?  If you dont like stats and character skill being the primary determinants of combat are you saying you want a player skill/twich based combat model?

Just looking for clarification b/c as others have said, the combat system in KoToR was actually a pretty good meld of real time and turn based and flexibile in terms of how much of each you wanted.  But, being what I would consider a typical RPG, your effectiveness was largerly dependant of your character's abilities and to a lesser extent your decisions to pick the right ability use at the right time.  And that "typical RPG" includes most p&p rpg games too.

Combat is one of the major gameplay elements that's being completely revamped in Oblivion. Some of the most interesting feedback the team got from Morrowind players concerned the nature of combat. PC gamers are used to Western RPG conventions, most of which are derived from Dungeons & Dragons -- conventions that include behind-the scenes die rolls to determine success or failure. Those conventions aren't nearly as common on consoles, especially in first-person perspective games such as Morrowind. Howard described it this way: "It's amazing how many people played Morrowind and said (to us), 'Why is my character missing when he swings? The enemy is right there!,' or 'Why did that guy see me? I thought I was hiding.'"

"We've realized how much combat people really do in a game like this and made it more of a priority to get it right," Howard continued. The Oblivion team actually developed three entirely new combat systems and did extensive testing on them all before settling on the one that will be in the final game. The basic idea of Oblivion combat is to impart the 'kinetic energy feeling' of guys bashing each other with swords. The game will have a number of special moves available and blocking is actively under player control, not automatic. As a result, timing moves, shielding yourself, and responding to the enemy becomes a key strategy in fighting. The team also didn't shy away from the gore either. It isn't over the top or gratuitous, but it does fall in line with the design philosophy of trying to make the game as realistic as possible. Basically, when you really smack someone with a sword, you expect a certain level of blood to come spewing out, so the team is trying to fulfill those expectations.

Action gamers, on the other hand, won't necessarily have an unfair advantage. As Howard himself pointed out, the combat system in every Elder Scrolls game has walked a fine line between RPG and action. They've all been first-person and players always controlled their sword arm in real time, but in prior games, the die rolls added an extra layer of randomness between the player and the world. While the combat system of Oblivion tries to remove those layers, RPG players can breathe easy knowing that their beloved stats haven't gone anywhere. This difference this time is that the player's stats determine what they can do, and how effective those things are, but they're now in full control of the "when." Blocking a blow is manual, for instance, but the effectiveness of that block is determined by your character's block skill -- things like how much damage the block absorbs, how much fatigues it causes and so forth. Striking an enemy with a sword is no longer random, but the amount of damage caused is a function of strength and weapon skill.

As opposed to combat which is knitting a quilt and baking muffins. Why do you play crpgs again? Do you live under a bridge?

Todd Howard, Producer of Oblivion(sequel to Morrowind), pretty much nailed it perfect, imo.



Ah, so more twitch less character.  Gotcha.

No offense to Oblivion dev, but that really won't change the gripes from non stat heads all that much.  Now instead of saying "why am I missing with my sword he's right there?" it will be "why isn't this thing dying? I've hit him with my sword 10 times in a row!" from getting low damage numbers or weapon immunities that are hidden.  Or, "why am I still taking damage, I successfully blocked!".

Xilren

I rather enjoy BG & BGII combat too. Going up against other magic users is fun as you figure out the best counterspell combinations to blow through their protections.

Ah, so more twitch less character. Gotcha.

No offense to Oblivion dev, but that really won't change the gripes from non stat heads all that much. Now instead of saying "why am I missing with my sword he's right there?" it will be "why isn't this thing dying? I've hit him with my sword 10 times in a row!" from getting low damage numbers or weapon immunities that are hidden. Or, "why am I still taking damage, I successfully blocked!".

Different player skillsets are used (button timing vs Min/Maxing) but still an RPG.

Yes

When your characters does the exact same swing animation to the exact same hit location over and over, and some miss and some don't, that's kind of irritating. If the misses are rendered as the target blocking or dodging out of the way, that tends to go over better.

I don't think the problem is so much random hit/miss outcomes as it is the rendering of it.  I'm guessing most people would be comfortable with letting character skill determine individual hit results, as long as it made sense visually.  When your characters does the exact same swing animation to the exact same hit location over and over, and some miss and some don't, that's kind of irritating.  If the misses are rendered as the target blocking or dodging out of the way, that tends to go over better.

I don't think the problem is so much random hit/miss outcomes as it is the rendering of it.  I'm guessing most people would be comfortable with letting character skill determine individual hit results, as long as it made sense visually.  When your characters does the exact same swing animation to the exact same hit location over and over, and some miss and some don't, that's kind of irritating.  If the misses are rendered as the target blocking or dodging out of the way, that tends to go over better.

Yes

Ok. I understand. My big problem with games that lean more towards player skill is twofold...

Personally, i wanted the animations to somehow reflect why the attack did/didn't succeed.  Did they fail their attack skill?  Did it bounce off of my armour?  Did I block?  Did i dodge?  Ideally i would want a seperate animation/sound effect for each case.

There are some very early pnp systems that had this build into the gules.  So no special fiddling was needed.  Its a shame that computer rpgs still lag behind in this regard.

Good times, good times.
To delve into uber-geekdom for a moment, my PnP roleplaying group actually did this for a while.  We'd stack the AC bonuses in a particular order, so you can see which effect contributed to the miss.  If the hit would miss an AC10, it was just a complete miss. . sword hit the wall.  If the armor was the factor, it bounced off a breastplate.  If shield, ..  If dex, .. If magical ring, .. etc.  Made for much more interesting combat narrative, but was pretty tedious.  Computers are ideal for handling this.

This makes me want to write a text-based RPG that does take this stuff into account. Maybe a simple gladiatorial game based on the d20 ruleset to make it easier.

I had actually done something like that a while back.  The difficulty was putting together interesting text so that the fight flowed.

Still I don't enjoy console RPGs even that I don't  mind twitch factor in RPGs. For me playing with console controllers is like trying to play FPS by using chopsticks to move mouse and press keys.