f13.net

I finally passed an irritation threshold on the bus the other day, and decided that I've had enough of listening to spoiled, excitable, bitchy pre-teens yelling into their cell phones in public.  This coincided nicely with the receipt of a small scholarship, so I decided to do the responsible thing and invest in an mp3 player.  I have no love for Apple, and the Zune 2 seems to be just as nice as the iPod Classic: both have an 80 GB version (more than enough for me) selling at $250, and the Zune will play the few hundred wma files that are scattered among the mp3s.  Is there any reason not to opt for the Zune over the iPod?  Has anyone played around with both?  Are there other players I should be thinking about?  I've never owned one before, so I'm pretty clueless.

I guess no one will steal your zune....

I don't know anything about Zunes.  At all.

That said, by far the best feature of my iPod (which I admittedly only picked up in the last couple months) is iTunes and the slick interface it has with the iPod.

The iTunes store and the iPod interface is what basically made me pick up an 80 gig classic earlier this month.    Though funnily enough, I try to buy most songs off of Amazon (no DRM and tends to be slightly cheaper than iTunes).

I've never gotten more use out a computer product than mp3 players. And there aren't many ways to screw them up. Bonus. Pretty simple devices. I use ipods, which are just all around great products, and by virtue of them basically being the "defacto mp3 brand", they have the best infrastructure for music stores, etc.. But get what the fuck ever you want, I say. There were some weird drm quirks (quirkier than the usual drm shit) with the Zune awhile back, but I don't if they've stripped those out or not. I'm sure they're fine as basic mp3 players at least. Same goes for anyone else.

The Zune didn't even come out in Europe. So I can give you zero feedback on that.

The ipods are good products, though. And contrary to their computer counterparts reasonably priced as well.

I've had two iPods (2nd Gen Nano & 4th Gen Classic) and I'm currently using a 1st Gen Zune.  The players themselves are both quite good and I find it comes down to preference on that front.

Everything outside of the player though makes it so my next player is going to be another iPod (well, Zune's on-device playlist implementation is pretty poor, but that's minor).  The Zune software itself is a complete POS compared to iTunes (which wasn't all that great in the first place), mainly because:

* It is slow.
* Playlist interface / management is a joke.  I miss smart playlists something fierce, even WMP lets you generate playlists from ratings.  More basic though, you can't sort by field in the playlist screen (although you can in the collection screen :uhrr:).
* No love for a Audioscrobbler plug-in, and the only current workaround relies on Zune Social (which is slightly more reliable than a crack addict).
* It randomly decides that songs do not exist and removes them from my collection.
* WTF is this 3-tiered ratiing system (Like/Neutral/Don't Like)?  More so, why are "Don't Likes" placed before Neutrals when sorting by Rating?  I would like my five stars back, thanks.

Weird. Didn't know all of that. I thought the Zune's management features were integrated with WMP in the same way that the iPod's is with iTunes.

Zune is what would happen if Microsoft designed the iPod. Their form of "sharing" is pure middlemanagement thinking... I found the player itself ok though.

I've tried a bunch of MP3 players, and nothing comes close to the total system that is iPod/iTunes. I do like Amazon's DRM-free stuff, but man has Unbox screwed up my computer. I'm not touching that noise again. I'd rather just go buy a DVD from the bargain bin and rip it to my Touch (and yes, I keep the receipts for all those MPAA spies out there...)

Further, the iTunes rental system is just too good. I don't even bother with Netflix anymore. No slight on them, I think their service is great. But I catch up with all my movies on planes (Touch) and trains (laptop I can plug in). So having anything but digital data is a chore. I've probably rented upwards of 20 movies on iTunes, though you definitely want to time it right and not accidentally start playing it. You get 30 days to view it, but only 24 hours after you actually start playing the movie to finish it.

Prior to my Touch, I was using a Nano. Fine for Music and Podcasts, not so much for movies. I still don't get people who can watch Lord of the Rings or Armageddon even on a iPod Video. Heck, I find them barely watchable on the Touch.

Which is the one reason I still have my PSP  :grin:

I don't watch movies on mine (80 gig classic). I'd like to take advantage of portable video, but yeah, the screen's pretty weak. I put music videos on there for kicks, but don't watch those either. It's just that I have a fuckton of music, so I need the space. I could almost get by with a 32g Touch, but I'd rather wait. By the time my Sprint contract konks out, I'm sure there'll be 80-100 gig iPhones anyways.

Man, I was really hoping for some Zune love - keep my anti-Apple prejudice going.  But it sounds like the iPod's a better option.  Thanks for the feedback.

The disadvantage to the ipod is that Apple doesn't have any sort of subscription service. If you own (or posses) loads of music and it's all ripped, then probably the ipod is a better choice. I have an Rhapsody Ibiza and pay $15 a month for access to the entire Rhapsody catalog, which for me is simply beyond any sort of user interface stuff that the ipod can offer.

I have a 1st gen Zune and I dig it. For a simple mp3 player I'd say go with it.

That's my one regret with the Touch, that I at least didn't splurge for the 16gb. I don't have a lot of music, really not all that into what I don't occasioanally get interested in from the radio. But Podcasts and movies eat up space something fierce. Damned flash drives are still too new for the price drops I need though.

I personally am waiting for Sprint to pick up some future version of the iPhone so I can move to that. Except for the lack of an iPhone, I have had no problems with Sprint and have little by headaches about AT&T.

I'm leery of the vertical lock-in that's going on with the iPod, but it's not like Microsoft as the other choice is going to be spearheading interoperability and open access.

The Touch is a very slick little PDA if you already have a phone.  The WiFi access will only get more useful as WiFi gets more ubiquitous.  My wife has one and it's in range of a WiFi signal about 90% of the time, so it may as well be on the cell network, except she didn't have to pay for a phone.

I'm actually getting kinda frustrated with wi-fi in general. It's pretty much everywhere I go, but 90% of those places want to charge me to access it. If it wasn't that my company reimburses me for all these usages, I'd have already gotten a broadband card for my laptop.

I'm probably way wrong here, but I feel like ubiquitous wi-fi is going to get supplanted by broadband cards and the carrier networks simply because of the end-user hassle of each wifi node microtransing people to death. Sorry, I'm just not in an airport or Starbucks long enough to justify a 24-hour access fee (if I had to pay for it). And I sure as heck am not going to pay a monthly fee to Boingo* or T-Mobile until I spend at least a year going places 95% of which they cover (which they're all far south of atm, even with the ability to use a roaming account).

Wi-fi seems like it is technically better. But the "winner" is going to be the one with the best end user experience, which for how things "win" in the U.S. is generally determined by the one who delivers the LCD experience.

* And now they're forcing people to use some stupid ever-present login app too. Please make it more annoying for me... thanks!

I'm looking more at single-login citywide wifi, which we've been slowly shambling towards for years.  Hopping from cafe to cafe isn't worth the headache. 

That said, depending on your lifestyle you may not even need access between current hotspots.  I'm either at home or at work, both of which offer a wifi network, about 90% of my waking life.  If I didn't get a Treo with a data plan subsidized by my employer, I doubt the other 10% would be worth the cost of a wireless plan.  I think the only time I'd really miss it is Google Maps when I'm lost.  Which means I should probably just get a GPS.

Make me wealthier. Buy an iPod.

I read that the iPhone is tied up with AT&T for 6 years (since 2006). Which puts waiting for Sprint to have it out of the picture.

Yea, been wondering about actually. Do we know how tight that level of exclusivity is? Like, is it all iPhones with any tech?

I ask because I can't believe that Apple would actually tie themselves up so closely with the not-best network. They had to see what everyone else knew was coming: the inevitable knockoffs from the LGs and Nokias of the world. Sure those may be inferior user experiences, but the average user is buying it for opportunity, not actual usability. And meanwhile they're doing so by extending another two years contracts with bigger companies are (arguably) better networks with (arguably) better reach.

I feel like we could be witnessing again an analogy to Windows bringing to the masses what Apple codified for a few. I'd like to hope not though.

Please?

Again? What? Where have you been? That's been their MO since Day fucking 1.

A lot of buyers of 'prestige phones' buy them for the cachet. They have to have an iPhone and not one of the knockoffs because it isn't an iPhone. It's only recently been released here in Ireland (just this month in fact). 02 are the only network carryign it and they're charging through the nose for the handset and offering with 'exclusive' (and deeply unattractive (http://www.o2online.ie/wps/wcm/connect/O2/Home/Shop/Phones/iPhone/Buy+16GB+iPhone/)) monthly plans. If you're an O2 customer already you can't even upgrade to one, you have to start a new tariff and pay full price for the handset, no matter what. Yet people are still barging down the doors to get one.

That's not happening with the n95 and other equivalent phones.

I like my iPhone. It serves as iPod (audio and video), portable web browser, ebook reader, email, camera, and PDA too. It fits in my pocket.

With a few changes it could be nirvana, but as is, it beats the alternative(s) of carrying about multiple devices…

I'm still somewhat shocked Apple had to sign up with AT&T for five years. I grok that AT&T wanted a guarantee that the tech investment on their end would be recouped, but five years? That seems extreme for helping with the visual voicemail tech. Maybe Apple didn't think that the iPhone would be as popular as it has turned out to be. Although if the amount of money that AT&T is paying Apple is true, being tied to them is totally worth it.

My wife and I have had an assortment of iPods over the years and we've been happy. They are solid bits of kit that have handled a lot of abuse. I like the look of the Zune, but the software side looks to be seriously lacking.

Currently I'm using an iPhone and I really :heart: the damn thing. I didn't expect to be particularly enamored with it (it was a gift), but it has turned out to be hugely useful. I suspect most of the features that I find indispensable are in every other smartphone, but the level of polish makes it really a joy to use. The whole div zoom thing makes web reading more pleasant than a normal computer browser in a lot of ways. There are definitely some issues, but I like it well enough that I'm planning to upgrade to the new version as soon as it comes out.

That's my dream. One Device To Rule Them All. But I'd probably still keep my PSP... Why have one movie player when you can have two?

IainC, I agree. It was the same in the U.S. However, the vast majority of anything successful is rarely restricted to just the prestige crowd. Eventually amortization alone and then manufacturing efficiencies (and then use of common components in other devices) can bring prices down. However, that only applies to devices where the cost of entry is just the price of the device.

I've been wondering about AT&T's lock on Apple because that is probably the biggest restriction to greater adoption than anything else (in addition to the Flash drive). They could give away the device, but you still can't win a lot of converts locked into competing contracts and/or disinterested in the AT&T network.

@schild: yes.

I don't go for any of the hard drive MP3 players, prefer the solid reliability of RAM.  But as far as the Zune vs. iPod thing, it really boils down to personal preference in the end.  I'm disinclined to buy DRM-locked stuff, so rather than use any of the pay for download sites I just rip my CDs to MP3s and toss them on my computer.  For that, either player will work just dandy. 

I'm not cool with Apple making the latest-generation iPods encrypt their music database to make them incompatible with third-party music managers, that reeks of corporate shittyness. 

Microsoft's wifi music sharing thing is too restricted to be a useful feature, and I'm not sure whether they ever made it possible to just download your music straight from the net into the Zune.

The games that come with iPods are neat little time-wasters, good for amusement when lacking anything more robust.

I hear that Microsoft is trying to get Zunes working with downloadable multiplayer games off of XBL; if that actually works it would really improve my opinion of the Zune.

When Microsoft updated the Zunes to version 2, they gave free updates to all of the original Zunes to add features.  When Apple updated the iPod line, they didn't give anyone shit.

If you're rough on your electronics, the metal bodies of the iPod nanos will probably be better for you than Zune plastic.

What kind of free stuff would you expect in a software update then? They probably couldn't offer any of the touch/iphone specific software on another ipod even if they wanted to. Unless you mean something else?

What he probably means is ipod touch users having to pay for the added features in 1.1.4 if they bought that ipod touch before a certain date.

Which pissed me off to no end as well. Not enough to not buy an iphone, though. Still, I didn't buy the Macbook as planned for a private "Fuck you".

Ah, I didn't know about that. Yeah, that's lame.

One very cool feature of the Zune is that you can use XNA Studio (which itself is free) to write games for it. Admittedly, this feature is not something that will appeal to the masses, but it's the only reason I can think of to buy a Zune over the competitors.

Does anyone know if they've fixed WiFi yet?

I think it's pretty good betting that the Zune 3 will have improved 3D graphics acceleration and fixed WiFi. That could be quite a nice product - a PSP and iPod Touch rolled into one. If they do that, I might just buy one myself.

I bought the 60GB iPod a while back and since I ripped all my CDs and then stored all of my music on a read-only network drive where iTunes can do nothing to them, I have had zero problems.  iTunes is just a drag and drop utility for the music player and a playlist writer.  I don't have any idea what else it does that sends people into rages though (besides trying to get me to install Safari via Apple's update utility).  My personal favorite for ease of use was Dell's original MP3 player but they discontinued that several years back.

Well, for example, the new-gen iPods have new UIs with the cover flow, as well as an assortment of games and the ability to install additional games from iTunes.  The previous-gen iPods don't, and they never bothered to update them to have those features.

When Microsoft put out new Zunes, they simultaneously released software updates to give the old Zunes the same features, everything except the larger drive capacity, of course.

Yes, you can sync via WiFi.  They added it when they released the Zune 2 (and launched Zune Social and a new version of the software).  It worked just fine the couple of times I tried it.

I guess to me, "fixed" meant more than syncing. It meant being able to access the internet without restrictions like on the iPod Touch.

The new gen ipods... As in, the "touch"? I imagine that they have cover flow because they are simply better capable of supporting it. Not only for the screen and touch screen scrolling, but the cpu and shit is probably better. I know that coverflow can be a hog even on relatively recent macs, after using it for awhile. It's slow.

There are games that can't run on the touch either. It goes both ways. They're probably much different platforms from each other compared to the different Zune models.

Yeah, I can hear that.

But with what input, the power of my mind?  Just putting in a WPA key via a Zune on-screen keyboard would make me put kittens in a microwave.

On the iPhone/iPod Touch, it just a simple password entry that is remembered.  And once you connect, it will auto-connect from then on, which isn't always desirable. Especially if you didn't want to connect to that WAP in the first place — a local Starbucks always connects now, and I don't want to pay (though if I can dredge it up, I believe I received a year free of T-mobile from OLPC purchase)…

Nope.  Got mine recently, it's not a Touch, it has cover flow.

Damn. That's bullshit then.

They're a hardware company. I expect no less.

One thing I will say about the Touch that I don't like is the thing I miss most from my Nano: thumbwheel. You don't know frustration until you're trying to go back in a Podcast a mere minute or so while driving. I'm still surprised nobody in jailbreak land has created an onscreen thumbwheel.

Hehe Ipod or Zune............Neither.

16 gig San Disk Sansa, which is easily integrated/controlled by my rhapsody client. Unlimited content constantly changable for one low monthly subscription and the only hasle from DRM is that you have to connect the player to a rhapsody client once per week or so.

That and a "low monthly subscription" sound like more than a hassle to me.  I've got several thousand mp3 files on my hard drive already, and 300 CDs or so; no need for a downloading service.

Plus, 16GB?  Way too little.  I know there are a lot of cheap, low capacity players out there, but they're not for me.

The Zune still isn't available for retail in Canada (though it's supposed to be on sale "Spring 2008", whatever that means), so I can't do any hands-on comparison shopping yet.  Lame.

Another question: is it worth paying the $80 or whatever it is for the extended warranty?

They need to fix this. It's annoying, especially on longer podcasts.

I usually look at it this way: if it was to break, would I have been glad to have spent the $80 to have it covered?  The only time I didn't buy the extended warrany on an expensive electronic device was when it broke.  I had to spend $400 x2 to get the other half's laptop repaired twice and it would have been covered had I bought the extra $150 warranty.  If it is a cheap enough item, $80 vs. $250 is what it comes down to really.

The Apple replacement thing is totally worth it. Mine has survived past it in all cases, but a friend of mine is a gadget killer and has received fantastic service. I can think of two occasions where his iPod died during class in the morning, and he came back after lunch with a brand new player. With the iPods it seems like they pretty much just hand you a new player if it seems dead. Plus if your battery craps out it covers a new battery, which makes it worthwhile.

I'm necroing this post because I need a new MP3 player for the walk to work. I used to have a mini,  but the fucking battery died for the second time to which Apple said "Wait, you didn't buy second warranty? In Soviet Apple warranty fucks YOU."

Has Apple improved the battery life? I just need music. I don't need all this Wi-Fi bullshit or fancy sliding touch crap. I want music into my ears when I hit 1 button.

Note: Don't try to sell me on iTunes. I hate iTunes ever since it broke my mini for a week.

I used these guys to replace my silver mini's battery:

http://www.irepair.ca/

Very fast service and the new battery, knock on wood, lasts quite a bit longer than the original.

Interesting. Don't know if I want to revive the ugly thing. I might grab the Creative Zen 4GB for $99 at Best Buy. Music, Video and FM tuner for $99? That's a steal.

GF's been happy with creative zen, and I've been very happy with SanDisk players. The sound quality on the SanDisk player I have, which is a budget one, is notably better than my iPhone's sound quality, using the same sony in-hear 'noise reduction' buds.

Since this has been resurrected, I may as well follow up.  I got tired of waiting for the Zune to be released in Canada (it's going to arrive on June 13, apparently), and took your collective advice to heart: got the 80GB iPod, and I have zero regrets.  Hopefully I'll be saying the same thing a few years from now.

Metal beats plastic.

I bought a 16gig zen which I use with the Rhapsody to go "rental" service. I could not be happier. Prior to that I went through an Ibiza and Sansa View. (I love Amazon's return policy btw.)

I'll agree to this, but there's something to be said about a product that can work fine one day and the next, after a full recharge, shut off after 1 song is played. I can drop it a hundred times, but the fucking thing still won't play more than 1 song.

I would have irepair look at your ipod before you throw it out.  Worst case scenario, you pay for the repairs/battery, decide you still want a new mp3 player and you sell the mini on craigslist/ebay/to-me.

Relevant necro ... Y2K-style bug made all 30Gb Zunes fail on New Year's Eve. Can't handle leap years, fix was to switch them off until January 1.

Report: http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/12/31/all-zune-30s-crapping-out/
For programmers: http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/12/31/zune-bug-explained-in-detail/

Facepalm, but that's Microsoft.

To be fair, the RTCs for almost all SoCs I've ever worked with have been impressively braindamaged.  It's not uncommon to run into some really nasty and really hard to reproduce bugs related to the obnoxious critters. 

 :drill:

Is that a no more iTunes DRM  :drill:?  'Cause it should be if it isn't.

iTunes is a pile of indefensible shit. It's awful. Every fucking bit of it.

At least on Windows.

As for players, get something else. Get a Sansa, Cowon, Zune, whatever.

It's the same UI on the Mac.