f13.net

The question is this: what are the most effective ways to make ISK?  Both individually and as a corp.

Is ratting really a viable option once someone is flying ships that cost over 100 million?  What about mining?  How does one go about profiting from manufacturing?  Is there a profitable option in empire aside from suicide ganking or market manipulation?

As a corp, how do we make cash besides simply hiking up the tax rate?  I've heard mention of moon mining, but are there other ways beside that?

Rich friends, tell us how you've made your fortunes.

Discuss.

You're gonna get at least two replys saying to suicide gank.  :pedobear:

That's fine, this is intended to be a general information thread so that we can all evaluate ways to make money.  And to refer newbies to in the future.  So an explanation of suicide ganking would be nice.

I made my money doing three things:

• Mineral trade: Set up buy orders for high-end minerals (Zydrine, Megacyte, Nocxium) at systems on the edge og empire. A couple of time a month, bring the load to a hub to sell. Profits are typically around 15%, but turnaround can be long.
• Manufacturing: You have to find a niche, and you have to get Production Efficiency 5.  Do not try to sell cruisers in Jita, the margins are sometimes negative (!). Battleships can have better margins, and you can make good money if you have a high volume. I went for high-margin, low-volume at a system on the edge of the Empire in a pipe to 0.0, where rich but lazy people would pay a premium to avoid jumping an extra 15 systems to buy a ship.
• Invention: Usually smart to start with modules and not ships, and you need a fair amount of skills and quite a bit of money to invest with to do it properly (I used about half a billion to get started I think). A research POS helps since you will be doing a lot of blueprint copying.

The above are methods that basically require you to have some starting capital, and then log on for 15 minutes twice a day to make good money, and they also require you to do your research to figure out what pays. When they do, you can easily make 10-20 million a day. This may not sound like that much, but this is steady income - and 20 mill/day is 600 mill a month. It's actually hard to blow up ships worth that much every month.

I've done trading -- fleecing mission runners, mostly. Find something that sells for a decent amount (100k+, but you can do it for even 50k) that doesn't have a region wide buy-order on it. Set up one for something like 10% of the value, at most. 5% is just as good. Leave it up for three months, collect it all at the end, sell for profit. :)

I mostly just kept tabs on the 50k to 250k drops off of whatever mission hub I was at, and covered it at 10% or less for the region. It's a bitch to collect it all, but I think I spent about 30 million and sold it for ten times that.

Research is another method -- it's very passive. Just hit up your R&D agents once a month to turn RP's into datacores, throw them up on the market, and profit. It takes some skill investment (one of the needed skillbooks -- the one to have more than one research project running -- is something like 40 million), but it's completely passive income.

I think with my RP rate, I'm runing about 2 million a day worth of RP points. I'm grinding towards another high-quality agent, and can have up to two more going -- so eventually it'll be up to 5 or so million a day. That's pretty much a HAC a month in totally passive income.

Mission running and salvaging is another path. Run the mission, collect the loot, salvage the wrecks. I tend to collect everything in the 50k to 200k range in a bin, put anything over 200k on the market directly, and melt the rest. About once a month I place large sell orders of minerals (reprocessed loot), and some salvage (others I keep for rigs I want). When I'm done at a particular mission hub for good (moving agents) I put everything in the misc bin up on the market. Big sell orders are the way to go. :)

But never, ever, EVER sell anything directly. Always check the market details -- fleecing mission runners (offering you 10% of the price, for instance) is common, and if there's a low enough supply and a big enough number of people with buy orders out, they can seriously screw up. (I've seen modules worth 500k -- and they got snapped up in days when I put them up for sale) with an "average" price of 5k because apparently everyone was just selling them directly to the buy orders.

I had a nice response full of details and sensitive info but then I realized that this isn't the secure forum.

So, all I will say is Yes.   :drill:

We can at least say that there are rats in even fairly bad 0.0 space worth 500k-1m per rat. Also, the cost of losing a 100 million battleship may be closer to 20-30 million because of insurance. So, if you kill 40 rats, that pays for losing the ship.

My net loss on a Domi after refitting, when I'm not using faction gear, is roughly 20 million.  That's about 4-5 hours of ratting tops with decent skills and having a system to yourself (which can happen often out here).

If I start planning to do some R&D for cash, should I be picking a field based on anything other than the price datacores sell for and the research points per day of the agents I can access?

Are some datacores quicker to make, or do any of the research skills give any advantages to space flight?

If you're not planning to use your datacores for invention then I recommend mechanical engineering. It's a ubiquitous datacore, nearly everyone needs them.

Chances are, however, that you will have a hard time finding more than one or two lvl 4 R&D agents in a given corp in the same research field. At least that was my experience. So unless you plan on mission running your butt off for four different corps to get sufficient standings, you will need to diversify your datacore research.

One thing that will increase your RP production, aside from agent standing, is having complimentary skills. Each agent has three or four research skills. Regardless of what you are using that agent to research, the more skills you have in common, and the higher the lvl of those skills, the more RP you will get per day.

That I've never heard of. Is it documented anywhere? I was under the impression that RP's were pretty straightforward. Agent Effective Quality (standings, social skills, etc) and your ranking in the skill being researched being the whole kit and caboodle.

Same here morat, I havn't heard anything at all about getting more RPs in X skill by training other completely unrelated skills.

Also, money trickles in at first, it does start to pour after awhile, wait til you get an officer spawn and are instantly 350m-2b richer.

I've started splitting my time -- I rat in 0.0 when I'm playing often, or wanting to PvP. When I'm going to be busy or have irregular hours, I JC back out and mission -- because my PvE clone is my head full of implant one.

Speaking of -- question: I jump cloned into Promethia. In that clone, I was PvPing and got killed, and woke up in my medical clone in Promethia. (I'm smart -- I move my medical clone). When I jump clone out of Promethia back to empire, does the body I was occuping in Promethia count as a jump clone? Can I jump BACK into promethia, or do I need to buy a new jump clone?

Yes.

Anything you jump out of always becomes a jump clone.


Though I have never died, so this is all 'as I understand it'.

I've never seen it documented, but a former alliance mate heavy into invention told me about it, I experimented, and confirmed it for myself. It's easy enough to try yourself. Post your results here.

Yes, you can leave a jump clone anywhere just by jump-cloning away, you will leave behind a jumpable clone (with any implants you were wearing).  Don't jump to a jump clone in the same station to get back into your implants, they won't be there.

--Dave

The formula I've used (found here (http://www.eve-production.org/invention/advanced.html)):


Always worked for me.

Another question before a sink the skill points into research skills.

Am I right in understanding that once I set an R&D agent off on his merry way, he just keeps on generating points until I return?

There's none of this 'must return every 3 hours to give him a prod' crap like you get with the skill training system?

Right -- but if you're in the area, he'll occasionally send messages saying "Oh noes! Our research has hit a snag! You need to see me!". Ignore that. The research continues, it's just basically an offer for a daily "To a job for me and get double RP for the day" thing.

Since mine are so far from where I rat and mission, I only tend to get those when I actually dock at their station to trade points for cores.

Correct, they just keep going and going and going and...well you get the idea.

*edit* Doh, beaten by <20 seconds.

Whenever I go to pick up datacores, I bring along 8100 trit since that's almost always what my particular agent wants for the R&D mission. That's basically a free datacore for me.

What is the difference between the +1 research jobs from the Laboratory Operation skill, and +1 research agents from Research Project Management?

Does Lab operation mean I can run more than one research job per agent? Or do they both, in effect, limit the number of agents?

Extra agents means you can be accumulating research points for datacores from more than one agent at a time. Extra research jobs means you can be researching several BPOs and be running some invention jobs all at the same time.

They're two entirely different skills.

I've played for years and have only ever seen/killed one officer; he was crappy too, didn't drop any X's modified Whatever  :heartbreak:.  Still made a good few hundred mill though - like you'd expect off a decent faction spawn.

I got back from holiday last night and logged in to change a skill on my GF main. He was in space, so I warped to a belt to see if I would get lucky.  No: a hauler spawn, and I am never going to bother moving 6m trit.  I kill it anyway, since I have a few minutes to spare and i've not shot at anything for almost ten days, and look at the wrecks to see if there is any megacyte or other easily-moved high value stuff.  There is not, but there is a named ice harvester upgrade which seems to be worth nine figures, judging by the contracts out for it...

Ohhhhhh really? I think I got one of those somewhere, if it is the same one.

9 figures huh? Whodathunkit!

There are a few different ones, so prices will vary.  I think this one is harvester cycle time.

Since someone mentioned hauling, I noticed I am not that far away from freighters, how much is Advanced Spaceship Command ?

45 million in empire.

Speaking only for myself, I've made far more through trading than anything else.  I don't do it all the time, but when I want to dedicate myself to trading for a spell I can make some pretty impressive coin.

For a corp it's moon mining.  Hands down.  You guys would call me a liar if I told you the amounts my son generates for his corp.

If he has a good moon or two, sure.  Crappy moons = like trying to make money by doing L1 missions for a Q -19 agent in lowsec.

I really didn't think I had to spell out that good moons are good and crap moons are crap.

I'm probably going to train Lab Operation and Research so I can then train Project Management and multiply up my datacore income in the nearish future.

I gather there is some other nonsense activity these skills allow me to perform that involves blueprints and other complicated jiggery-pokery but which in no way includes pew-pew.


As much as I fear and distrust any activities that don't centre around pew-pew, I'm wondering if there is anything useful and/or profitable I could be doing with these skills that doesn't involve too much effort or travel?

Most of guides I can find just want to tell me how to produce datacores.

Datacore farming is the easiest income I know of. Unfortunately, it looks like everyone knows about this now and the price of datacores is on a long term slide.

Yeah I have to admit I regret the 4m and 11m (!) SP's I have in Science on my 2 mains now. It's several months since I even bothered going to collect my datacores, the prices are just so low now.

Also, it's not entirely passive. You do have to go and physically collect the damn things and if you've got 10 research agents spread over 2 characters that's a lot of travelling. I think if I do a full round of all of mine and then back to Jita it's over 100 jumps, and the datacores are 1m3 each so if you leave it a few months you need a hauler so it's VERY unwise to AFK it.

I think I'll probably forget about mine until I either run totally out of money or there's a sudden price-hike in core prices for some reason (lots of new T2 ships maybe).

The price of *everything* is on the slide, I don't know wtf is going on but around The Forge datacores, salvage junk, minerals, (basically everything traded in volume) are all showing big drops month on month.

For all the worries about inflation, there is actually a massive money flow out of the economy right now.  Some because of massive infrastructure investment in 0.0, but most of it is probably people buying NPC market items and salvaging them for the low-end minerals.  So with less money chasing more goods, everything not tied to the low-end minerals market is deflating.

--Dave

Doesn't your money not really lose any buying power if everything (including what you're buying) is on the slide?

Actually, it gains in buying power against the items that are sliding.  However, your ability to buy things are are not sliding is reduced.  This includes all T1 ships, as much of their expense is in the low-end minerals which are not falling.  POS bits and outpost components are only available from the NPC market and are therefore fixed.

Another contributing factor is the breakdown of the embryonic capital investment markets after the dissolution of ISS.  If you're one of the people with shit-tons of money, there's no good way for you to spread it around (besides buying super-caps and funding outposts, which just takes it out of the system).

--Dave

Here's my take. Most isk-making strategies seem to focus on maximizing isk/day or maximizing the profit margin. My precious resource, though, is game time, so my strategies all revolve around maximizing isk/hour spent making isk. If I spent 20 minutes doing something and it makes me 100M in a month without additional effort, it's a winner.

1. 0.0 exploration content with friends. Real plexes are out of my available 0.0, but when we scraped together three or four folks including covops, this compared favorably with high-end ratting systems which we didn't have access to.
2. Datacores, though these are getting less and less good.
3. Region wide buy orders at ~80% of hub price, then resell the stuff wherever it was sold to you (no hauling). Someone always eventually buys it, but this can tie up a lot of orders.
4. Scan for item exchanges or auctions with buyouts which are a bit low, pounce, and resell. Works better isk/hour-wise the more liquid isk you have.
5. Buy stuff in 0.0, resell at twice the price or more. It's going to take a while for me to extract all the money I've sunk into this, but I rarely have to modify my sell orders.

Any other ideas on maximizing isk/hour spent making it?

What do people around here reckon is par profit for ratting in Providence? I seem to collect 10M per hour in bounties, then probably half as much again in salavage sales (principally Armor Plates, Capacitor Consoles, and Logic Controllers), I also hang on to N-type/modulated hardeners/lasers, but nomally it doesn't seem like there is any non-salvage loot really worth worrying about?

You make more isk/hour not looting anyway. The problem is that you have to get a nice chain of BS spawns going, once you get that you make good isk but it can take quite a long time setting it up.
I make more money doing l4's (not looting them either) if you take the lp sales into account.

If you can spare the time while killing other ships, check the BS for meta 4 neuts, lasers, armor plates and smart bombs.  The give you the best return for cargo space.

You know my answer to this ;)

Hmm...let me guess, mining?  Na, that can't be it.

Suicide ganking takes a lot of game time. Every time I sit down and say, "Ok, I'm gonna wait until a phat hauler shows up," I get impatient and wander off.

Mining takes the most game time of all? I count being logged in and afk as game time. I'm only happy if I'm making isk while I'm away, or if I'm making a ridiculous amount of isk while I'm at the computer.

But very few other professions can net as much isk/hour active. I have made enough where I'll never have to worry about isk, ever again (unless i start flying faction fitted machariels with snake sets, but im not an idiot).  Now I just do it to hoard. I also hand out a lot of cash to my friends.

Also, the key is you can do other things while scanning. Half the time I'm on f13 while my windowed mode scanner sits there until something pops up. It takes patience though, you are right. Some days you will get 100 million in 15 minutes. Other days it can take hours. It is WAYYY more chill than having to rat and watch local, or running missions. You are basically fishing. When you get a bite, mostly they are shit. But every so often you score a billion+. I just like that I can be lazy and do it...walk away, play with the kids, come back...scan for a minute while im fuckin around on myspace or reading emails. Oh look, a hauler on my overview... SCAN...nope, he's got shit.

Eve - the best game you have running in the background while you do other stuff!  :awesome_for_real:

This is all very true, but how do you get past the "I've ganked so many people I'm KOS in all empire" problem?

Wait a month and kill rights expire.

Sure, half of eve might hate me but they can't do shit about it anyways.

Use your untold billions to pay people to rat for you  :drill:

See, it stimulates the economy!

What kind of lazy, rich bastard would do something like that!!?!?!?!? :)


Anyways, sec status isn't a problem...and moves back to the Money Thread question. If I weren't a ganker, I'd be ratting in Venal in a Domi. Great rats, little need for ammo, plenty of open decent systems to make money in. The problem is getting there with a BS, so instead just buy one up there. Then use your noob alt to scout you to stations when you need to go.