f13.net

Woah looks like they were keeping some pretty pudgy rabbits under their hats. This is a pretty serious change to their stated plans along a path that I think from most of the gripes I have heard a good direction for the game.

Many of you likely will not care one way or another but it is a pretty big shift in stance for them and makes for an interesting read.




Since character individualization in EverQuest II has been a hot topic following the lifting of the NDA, we thought it would be a good idea to share our plan for the all-new features that are going live in the next few weeks to give a greater sense of uniqueness to players. We’ll be releasing more details each day, beginning with the character traits list tomorrow afternoon.

First, let’s talk about what’s changing from its current state.

We’re releasing the final class spells and arts lists. These move away from the standard archetype spells and arts we’ve been using for balance testing and give players access to their class-specific spell selections. The spells and arts you’ll see in the next few updates include new effects, class-specific strengths and flavor, and final names.

These spell changes are taking place across the board and will greatly refine class differences from what they are today. We’ve completed the balancing necessary to give a solid role to each class and now we’re excited to release the new spell and art lists.

To illustrate how these changes work, we'll use the Mage -> Sorcerer -> Wizard progression as an example.

Unlike how it was in the previous spell lists, once you turn level 10 you stop being just a mage. As you choose your path and complete your quest, from that point forward you are a sorcerer. There are no new mage spells after level 10. Each class will be branch off into entirely class-specific spells.

Once you turn level 20 and choose the path of a wizard, you are no longer a sorcerer. As before, there are no new sorcerer spells after level 20. You will be gaining wizard subclass spells from there forward.

In other words, there is no longer any such thing as a "level 44 mage spell," because a high-level wizard should never think of himself or herself as a level 44 mage in EverQuest II.

You will still be able to do a number of the same things to keep being useful in your key roles, but with unique and interesting differences that are suitable to each of the classes and subclasses that branch out from the common base.

For example, all priests will continue to receive instant heals, but other heal types will be restricted based on class. Only shamans will get wards, only druids will get regens, and only clerics will get reactive heals.

Classes will also receive a greater assortment of unique spells and arts. These are additional abilities that will likely be purchased off vendors. For example, illusionists will be able to cast racial illusions.

Full spell and art lists for each class will be released in the next few days.

Next, we’d like to outline some brand new features going live in the coming days and weeks. These systems add a tremendous amount of customization to each character and should help you create the unique persona you'll want to play in EverQuest II.

New Feature - Training Specialized Abilities

As you develop your character, you’ll be able to specialize in major aspects of your profession. About every ten levels, you can choose to focus on one of your core abilities and receive advanced training to improve it.
For example, a priest could train and receive either a stronger heal, a more potent buff, or a higher-damage nuke. This ability would be of much greater potency than the typical granted spell and may be upgraded even more through adventuring.
Each profession gets similar choices that play to their strengths – fighters may choose between offensive and defensive enhancements, or mages may focus on improving a damage spell, a pet, or a stun spell as appropriate to their profession.
New Feature - Character Traits

Character traits allow you to choose an aspect of your character and improve upon it. Traits are independent of your character’s race or profession, and all characters have access to the full list.
By the time they’ve reached level 50, every character will gain access to seven traits that help tailor their character to their preferred play style.
For example, a given character might choose to become Clever, thereby increasing their intelligence. Another character might choose to become Nimble, thereby increasing their base agility.
Traits can improve your character in a variety of areas, such as increasing your statistics, giving more health or power, improving your health or power regeneration speed, and making your more resistant to magic, disease, or different types of melee damage.
Traits are generally permanent effects that continuously improve your character during play. Once you’ve selected a trait, you’ll enjoy its benefits permanently.
New Feature - Racial Traditions

As players learn the background and lore of their chosen race, they begin to unlock certain bonuses. This starts with race-specific titles and leads to a choice of racial abilities.
By the time they’ve reached level 50, every character will gain access to four racial traditions to help tailor their character to their preferred play style and distinguish themselves from other members of their race.
For instance, an iksar could choose from enhanced health regeneration, increased power regeneration, or increased armor class. A ratonga may learn to forage for food or improve his ability to dodge blows. Erudites may learn to summon a magical wisp, guard themselves with a magic-resistant shield, or improve their alchemist crafting abilities.
Racial traditions take many forms, but are generally activated abilities that can be used on demand to greatly improve your character for a short period of time.
Some traditions give bonuses similar to traits, but with much more powerful effects.
Full racial tradition lists will be released for every race in the next few days.
New Feature - Enemy Mastery

During your adventuring career, you’ll be able to learn about the creatures and monsters you’re fighting and use that knowledge to your advantage.
Every few levels, players may choose from a selection of enemies and undertake a quest to learn how to exploit their weaknesses. The successful completion of this quest results in an enhanced attack against that type of enemy.
By the time they’ve reached level 50, every character will gain access to six enemy masteries to help tailor their character to their preferred play style.
Summary

These new kinds of choices allow for greater individualization without creating major imbalances between subclasses. One dwarf templar can have different stats and abilities than another dwarf templar while retaining the core abilities that they need to be successful in their key roles. Approximately every two levels players will receive an additional choice that allows another degree of individualization.

We plan to have the first round of these features showing up in next week's scheduled update (week of 10/25/04) with additional features arriving the week after. We look forward to hearing what you think of these upcoming changes.

Message Edited by Moorgard on 10-19-2004 07:50 PM

Those changes are pretty significant.
They sound pretty cool, too.  
Sometimes listening to the raving, mouthbreathing forum posters is a good thing?

Except that now you need to be much more careful about race and ability selection if you want to min/max properly.  You may pick the "wrong" race and specializations for that Guardian you were hoping to play, and gimp yourself in the long run.


I'll be amazed if SOE can implement and debug all these changes in the remaining month(s) they have before release.

Sony has never announced an actual release date as far as I know. It may all be a cat and mouse game just to fuck Blizzard. You know what? I would crack up if they just didn't release until like a month after them. If they play their cards right, I do believe a 12 gun salute may be due to the victor.

Oh, and I like these changes. I may start a new character just to see how they function.

Cynical translation: Our Archetype system sucks so we're going back to EQ-style classes but it's too late to change all the Archetype and Class quests so we're only fixing it for Subclasses.



Player characters in EQII are even more cookie-cutter than in EQ so we're putting in a Band-Aid EQ-style AA system until we can figure out what the hell we're doing with this game.



Yes we know you were told a billion times this wasn't going to happen (it's even in our FAQ), but you know what? You were right our races suck big time. Sorry about that.

It's nice to see SOE respond to the concerns. We'll never know whether this was a response to the negative reviews of the game play of late, or if this was truly their intention all along and they've just been sitting on it until we test more core stuff. Normally it wouldn't matter. Whatever's good for the player and yadda yadda. But, I really do wonder how much that'll effect what has been tested for months. How will a nearly revamped spell and skill system for all players be adequately tested in the next four weeks? I don't know. Maybe the changes are more subtle that than. But I can't help but reference the DAoC Theurgist that was invented three weeks prior to launch. Untested, overpowered, concerning.

However, that is irrelevant, because I two major issues with what I see here. I really need to see the spell lists to know if my suspicions are valid, but here's my concern:

They are not providing more abilities per class. They're reducing them. They're doing so by removing the relevance of your previously achieved Tiers. No more Wizards using relevant Sorcerer and Mage spells is how I read this:



Secondly, they still seemed focused on arbitrary specialization, if this statement means anything:


"Only"?

It's nice to see things like Training Specializations and Character Traits. Those will result in some diversity. Unfortunately, they've used "once they reach 50" enough to drive home the point that a class hasn't become fully realized until the late 40s.

That's a long way off for a casual player, many months at least, and only if they don't get bored with their first three characters.

Not everyone's going to have the patience for that. They also don't need to anymore.


Heh. I would love to see SOE not launch this until late Winter. They could get those bored with WoW well before Guild Wars gives them a free alternative. Alas, the allure of box sales may be too strong to resist. Even if half of them never get opened, they've still got the cash to pay the bills.

Particularly from those suckers who can't cancel their pre-orders because they've been "partially shipped" (the hook being the Pre-order kits which most have long since lost I'm sure, so can't return ;) )

I am impressed.  

On the other hand - I think Trippy did a good job of editorializing these changes.

Now...

If they could only improve the appearances of these goddamn avatars.  The dwarf is pathetic.  None of the postures appear natural - the movement kinetics really seem to suck (edit - spoiled by CoH again).

If they give the option of turning hood / helmet graphics off on your character - it might just save part of their useless character creation system as it currently stands which is entirely about head nuances.

I am jaded about this - but I do plan to give EQII a genuine effort when it is available.

Lol, Trippy!   Did you bug the SOE conference room or something?

"At just this moment it had been announced that Oceania was not after all at war with Eurasia. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Eurasia was an ally."

Good-looking changes, compared with the crap with a token ribbon that was paraded around before, but implementation is going to be a different kettle of fish.

Looks like some good stuff.  I agree with Trippy's cynical evaluation of things, but hey at least SOE realized they were problems and is attempting to fix them.   I worry, like Darniaq, if they can actually get all this done in a reasonable timeframe.  

No way in hell it'll be balanced, though, since they still plan on shipping sometime in 2004.  (Yes, no date has been announced, but that's the cry from each and every community rep when the question is posed, or someone on the 'public' boards says no way it'll ship.  "It WILL ship in 2004.")

It's a GOOD thing they're giving race customizations, IMO.  That was one of the fun parts of EQ.  My Half-Elf druid played differently (at low levels, before you hit all the Equipment that 'levels out' the races.) from a Wood Elf or Halfling because I had different stats and a much smaller mana pool.  It was a challenge and more fun, IMO, because I WAS different from other druids in a small but significant to me way.

The creature mastery thing, though.  Isn't that at least partially in game already?  You've got those tomes that give you special attacks vs monster types. So would this be extra damage on top of those or a different attack button, giving you 2 attacks against some creature types.

I figured it was the same thing, and they were "officially" announcing it now. Or at the least they changed the tomes into this system. But I can't see why 2 stacking effects would be needed.

Perhaps it's actually a limiter. Aren't you currently able to do as many of the "creature mastery" quests as your tedium tolerance allows?

This is more like what I was talking about, though not as intensive as I'd like.  I will certainly enjoy developing my character more with this in place.  At least I the character I will certainly gimp (as usual) will be of my own making and not just some off the rack, pre-manufactured oops-barbarian clerics-don't-work-right sort of gimp.

I guess they finally realised  that people are quite capable of destroying their own characters with their own choices, and we really don't need their help.  I, myself, am an expert in doing this.

I guess everybody here enjoyed the ridiculous imbalancing of classes in EQ1 because all this additional specialization stuff is just going to lead to "flavor of the month" skills/spells/classes. Next, players will want "respecs" for each of those and SOE will respond by making a quest (doable by 24 level 50s) to earn a single respec, or something like that. I guess I'm being far more cynical than the rest of you, but I just have this sinking feeling that a lot of replays of the EQ1 problems could crop up under those systems.

I am glad that they are making the effort to make some better variety. However, this will also mean that more specialization (i.e. Wizard no longer gets Mage spells at high levels) will lead to a greater need to group. Less self sufficience. Not that grouping is a bad thing, but at higher levels, you will find that grouping will probably become a complete necessity.

Oh wow they are doing this, devs put down their foot in the other direction on the beta boards.  This will make me play the game again (as soon as the implement this), good thing I just ordered that extra gb of ram (I find that the longer EQ2 runs, the more sluggish the game becomes).

Most of the class imbalance problems when I was playing only applied to the raiding game and that was because one, Verant never anticipated more than a single group attacking a mob and two they never anticipated stats/damage to inflat so much through the various expansions. This led to class problems like DoTs and debuffs not stacking, not being able to keep pets under control, CH being the uber heal, and Warriors being the only ones that could tank the uber uber mobs cause of Defensive. In the regular "killing blues" single group exp grind, I felt the classes were balanced about as well as you could hope for in a game of that complexity. Yes there were class issues even in the single group game but every class had problems so even the worst classes were not that far below the others.


They *probably* won't make the same mistakes as they did in EQ, but given what they've done with EQII it's likely they'll make a bunch of new ones.


I've only just started testing EQII but already I feel that this "anyone can solo to the highest levels" is a crock of baloney. Yes you probably could do that but that would mean camping a very very limited set of mobs over and over and over again until you could fight them in your sleep. I've mostly been playing a Scout so far and exploring around with Sneak I can see, at least at the low levels, how much content is simply unavailable to the solo players. There have been patch messages about new content for soloers so maybe that's changing but so far I've been seriously underwhelmed by the solable content.

As for the comment about this leading to less spell abilities I do not believe so. Currently at level 18 as a summoner I am using the second iteration of my newbie dd. In the current system I will be using rehashed versions of that same spell from level 1 to 50 as my main nuke.

With the new system they likely would replace the former upgrades to a mage specific nuke which to be honest I expect to do just about the same damage. I expect alot of the powers they currently have will be tweaked and modified a bit to keep the current good balance and then build on the differences from there.

I expect the at least 1 new power per level to stand under their new system and very likely more spells than that.

One thing that is really making people happy especially the necros with this is previously as a conjuror or a necro every time you got your next tank pet upgrade you were back to the stone roach again. So instead of looking more powerful you would on an increased level look like a newbie again.

They are revamping it so that the higher pets instead of just looking like the newbie one all have their own graphics which was one of my biggest pet peves as a summoner.

We shall have to see how this pans out but given all the comments I have seen on various boards I believe this is really a step in the right direction for them.


kaid

I have a question; instead of getting one new power a level, why couldn't we got something equivalent to one spell slot?  Then we could pick a spell out of the (I can't think of anything) big book o' spells, and it would take up the slot.  You could only pick some spells based on level, and if you went past that level you couldn't pick that spell anymore.  Someone else could probaly think of something more creative, but what you basically get out of this system are characters of sub-classes with unique spell lists.  Then, with their new training system, you could train some of your spells and have a truley unique character.

Customization ++, Balance --.  

GROUP LOOKING FOR 7xDEF SPEC IKSAR GUARDIAN WITH 4xAC RACE FOCUS, PST

I actually like it.  I think a bit of controversy and imbalance is a worthwhile price to pay for a bit of diversity.  But it needs some sort of re-specialization mechanic to prevent perma-gimpage.  And I never thought that EQ1's balance problems were limited to raids, a number of classes had serious grouping balance problems at various points in EQ1 (warriors v pal/sk in Kunark/Velious and then again in PoP, clerics v druids forever, wizards v rogues in Velious/Luclin, etc)

As for release dates, if I was SoE I would not release EQ2 until WoW had been out for 6 months.  By then, a lot of people will be getting tired of it.  Releasing a month or two after WoW, when people are still enthralled by the shiney but have not yet consumed every inch of content 6 times over, would be about the worst thing they can do.

Once again, I may be overly cynical here, but can you say "same spell, different name"? I'm sure there may be some unique spells that come from this, but as in EQ1, most spells are just upgraded versions of the previous with a neater name. This won't change just because you no longer will be getting mage spells. You'll be getting a "mage" DD (direct damage) with a Wizard spell naming convention. Again, there will be spells that will vary to make the classes "unique", but I don't expect that all the spells for each sub-class will be made into a hugely varietal series.

1 new power per level sounds about right. I don't want to get my hopes up. ;)

Hopefully, I'll have a chance to start testing the game by this weekend, so I can better gauge where I think they're going, but my years of experience in EQ and DAoC (of which this system of theirs is a hybrid combination) have given me a lot of information to draw upon about how this can be handled and the most likely way that they will handle it. I really should try to have more faith in their development team, but it's an SOE thing. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than terribly disappointed.

It's nice to see that they have some new pet models in place though. Some times simple little things can make a big difference in the game.

All I can say about this is that with as SLOW as experience comes solo up to level 11, most of these "character individualization" options would never be seen by me in game. I can't stand the fact that I can't really distinguish myself from other members of my same beginning archetype until level 20. It just seems like an eternity full of boring combat and mediocre questing.

Maybe it's changed since I played last Thursday.

Exactly why a lot of people bitched about the "level to 5 before you can spec" BS of DAoC. Luckily the first 5 levels of DAoC go by quickly. Even so, I still detest the whole "base class" and then specialize crap. They could just do all the sub-sub-classes and add in the other specialization systems that were mentioned and that would provide a huge amount of variety for players. But once again, the level to 20 to become truly unique is a factor of the extend subscription mentality. It's also a factor of the developers thinking that players need that much time to learn how to play a class. Once again, I can play a cleric from day 1 very well by virtue of the fact that I am an intelligent person and a decent gamer. Sure, it'll take me a while to refine my skills at a particular class, but why not let my own skills dictate how long it takes me to get good instead of imposing an artificial level barrier on how good I'm allowed to get? The answer: For Jack McAllthumbs who complains that it's unfair that another player might be more skilled than he is.

Leveling speed to 11 really depends on what you are doing. Frankly I got off the island dinged to 8 then got level 10 about 3 hours later just getting quests in the ghettos and doing the run around stuff. I didn't even start really fighting on the main land until 10 as I dinged so fast it wasn't even necessary.

If you are just straight mob hunting then yes xp will likely feel slow. As a newbie doing the ghetto quests is great for gear/cash/xp and will shoot you up to your class quest in no time at all.


kaid

I don't think I'll mind the waiting for level 20 the first few times through. I think it becomes tedious to people once they've "been there, done that". I hope to be so busy doing quests and enjoying the world that I won't notice the leveling up to 20 before it happens.

You don't get it. I WAS questing to 11. Most of the time, the only mob hunting I did was because of a quest. It was still too slow. Part of it, as I've said in my "First Impressions" thread, is that I'm on a severely underpowered machine.

Sure, I CAN do the quests and I did do them. Other than the linked quests, and even those quests, no quest I took made me sit up and go "That's pretty cool."

I am a questor as well. I'll only Grind if I'm near the end of a level (and can grind it out in under 20 minutes). I have a very low threshold for bullshit Treadmills these days, mostly because I can be a fan of the genre and have non-treadmilly options within. The quests are great, but nothing groundbreaking, nothing we haven't seen before, and nothing we don't get in WoW.

EQ2 is too slow in the early levels. Being fully realized later is fine, but we're not talking CoH level 20 "fully realized" here. We're talking two to three months of effort on one character, after you've gone through a few other characters to decide which one you want to take to full realization. This in a system without sidekicking, with almost no power leveling, with almost irrelevant twinking (since everything you can get scales to your level, more so with Moorgard's new comments), and with no respeccing.

This is fine. Some will like it. Most won't though, particularly those who've played WoW and see how differently that handles it. You can choose where to specialize, if you want to broaden, each class has more options within it than even EQlive has, and most are useful.

It's nice they're talking about how characters can later be broadened. I just hope they don't expect a lot of gamers to care.

Unfortunately, SOE has set themselves up for unmanageable expectations. EQ2, like SWG, will not possibly sell as many, nor gain as many subscriptions, as they expect. So no matter how they slice it, it will "under perform". Which sucks. If they were smart, they'd expect to sell 300k in boxes, which pays about half the development budget, and maybe expect to plateau at 150k subscriptions, which after maintenaince fees kick in, probably means the game is paid off in six months to a year.

Absolutely - well put.

Darniaq - We have different views perhaps of EQ2.  IMO EQ2 never really was intended to expand the EQ franchize, as its alarming similiarities to EQ1 recently corroborated:  it's purpose is to stem the hemorrhage of users from EQ1 that will inevitably occur.

This is not about increasing market share - but defending it.  If they were serious about increasing market share - they would have made a game quite unlike EQ1...

Either the people who are saying they're happy about these new changes are being sarcastic, or they're extremely naive. I'm pretty sure no one here is naive, so I'm just hoping some of you are being your usual sarcastic selves.

I'm surprised how many have let their guard down so quick due to these announcements. General rule of thumb: If the game is a piece of shit now, then there's a very high chance it's going to remain that way. Forever.

No need to mention AO or AC2 either. They still suck.

Besides, even if they do implement this stuff (broken or unbroken), isn't it a bit unprofessional to keep a major portion of your archetype system a secret?...Considering it's fucking Beta TEST. The only way it's excusable is if they don't plan on releasing until at least next year.

They can keep it a secret if they want, but not four weeks before launch. Some folks believe they've had this planned all along. Others think they're responding to the negative advertising and to the daily threads about the sameness.

It doesn't really matter why they're doing this as much as they do it before Launch with enough time to test it, and that it doesn't break the game. I have visions of the DAoC Theurgist here, which was entirely redesigned and patched in three weeks before launch. You can imagine the results. And that was just one class.

We'll see. It could flop or the next four weeks could turn around the 'meh' rampant in the review. I'm perversely fascinated by this whole thing. Not sure why, except maybe to relate to those watching SWG in June 2003 :)

Here's the first change:  Advancement Path: Traits (http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general&message.id=224400)



Here's hoping they remember to implement a respec.
Here's knowing they won't bother.

Personally, I'd rather just leave these options unchosen until much higher level when you know exactly how they affect your character.  And how to avoid gimpage.

Wow, stat and resist buffs, my beating heart. Although as far as I know stats in EQ2, in order to keep a gnome berserker viable, are largely meaningless. Still, give them credit, this whole thing has certainly given them a breathing space from the bad PR of their initial offering.

I'm underwhelmed by the whole system. I fear those changes won't save it.

My Level 12 Shaman (yes, I'll level him up till I can see Everfrost, go there and leave the game and never look back actually) tossing around Clerical Divine Nukes is an insult to the roleplayer in me. "Civilized Races" Shaman are an insult to the roleplayer in me. My Shaman Healing Runes which do exactly the same thing as the Druid Regeneration Spells and die Cleric Heals are an insult to the individualist in me.

What they did is make four classes. Every Subclass is interchangeable with every other, the roughly feel the same way, they roughly play the same way. Then they tried to distinguish them by making them customizable. As seen with EQ1 AA-Points the best traits will be quickly found out and picked by most people. So you still have roughly the same templates at high level, and whats worse other templates will be shunned by high level groups. Its the way the MMorpg Players mind works.

So you don't have the distinguished differences from EQ1 but still the same problems. Brilliant move.

Not to mention developer time taken away from other concerns on the eve of the games release. They won't delay it, they're too proud / stupid to resist the urge to compete with WoW.

Wait, this is a statement about change from the people who gave you "SWG will have a combat respec any day now"? Why not simply yawn loudly in their general direction until they actually implement something instead of just talking about it?

You hit the nail on the head.

More info

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general&message.id=224400&no_redir=true

(http://www.game-research.com/grafik/artikler/Gauntlet.jpg)
Please insert some coins, Elf needs food!

Elf shouts, "Elf score 3260 LFG, need wizard, valkyrie, warrior WITH COINS!"

MMO Gauntlet would pwn.

I actually have some faith that they will have some sort of respec option.  There really was only one way you could mess up your character in any way in EQ, and that was picking your spell specialization school.  They allowed you to respec that.  The super-anal might say that race selection for shamans and shadowknights mattered too because they could case and could pick ogre, who are immune to frontal stuns and bash interrupt rolls, but that is pretty minor.

So every fighter takes Brawny and every scout takes Nimble. However, stats are supposedly not important in EQ2 so what's the point?



Whatever category covers slow spells will the the one to take. Choosing this at level 14 is like picking a girl randomly out of the yearbook and promising to marry her in 10 years. You have no fucking idea what the choice will really mean until it is too late.



When HP=0 you die. More HPs will always be the best choice for any class remotely melee and Calm is like flowing thought in EQlive. A regen trait is never going to save your life, just lessen downtime.

Count me totally underwhelmed by those choices. Woooo, I can pick traits that others can probably eventually make up for with items, being that we KNOW EQ2 will be an item-centric game.

How... refreshing.

EDIT: Oh fuck, how much more ASS-KISSING SYCOPHANTS can the EQ2 Whineplay boards have? That thread was like two hours of watching complete drooling retards stumble up to the throne of Moorgard for a little rim job action.

After reading those traits I had to look at the title to make sure I hadn't stumbled into a shadowbane thread by mistake.   Yeah real original soe.   Does stats mean one iota of difference in this eq game, they sure didn't in the previous one (not noticable anyway).

This is my only real major problem with EQ2: the fact that it does absolutely nothing to address mistakes.

I accepted that in EQlive because the game was old and designed by sadists. But five years later, with every game at least paying lip-service to respeccing and most either including it or designing around the need, SOE remains the hold-out.

I will not role a second Warlock because I fucked up the first one. The optimum goal is to not design a game in which characters can be gimped of course. But if the lack of creativity results in a dev falling into that trap, at least allow the players to untrain.

I am underwhelmed by these changes as well. I am happy that a player can start these AAXP-like things way early in their life though.

However, I will reserve judgement on the entirety of the class system change/intention until everything is revealed. If I like it, then my decision to go with EQ2 will depend on these being implemented and tested before launch. I won't bother with the game otherwise.

What mistake? EQ1 has over 400,000 subscribers who love the "phat lewt to maximize your stats and resists" game. To them, that's a winning and profitable formula.

The mistaken belief they can offer the same linear one-way game a second time around and expect it to sell as good as the first one.

We've had this conversation before :)

They can, they aren't mistaken at all. It may not be as phenomenally breakout as the first in terms of subscriptions, but it'll cost 50% more per month.

So, I'm torn.

I generally had more fun with the gameplay in WoW.  I like WoW's quest system much better than EQII's, and EQII's massive bugs and design problems in beta lately have made me very wary.  If they give it another 3-6 months of testing, then maybe; but if they try to rush a Christmas release, it's going to be some deep hurting.

So why not WoW?  Because it seems like I'd burn through WoW's content much faster, hit the level cap and then have nothing to do but PvP, which doesn't interest me.  With EQ2, there are numerous other avenues to explore if I get tired of grinding through combat levels.  Plus, I know SOE can at least add content on a regular basis... I can't be sure the same is true for Blizzard.

Bruce

Play WoW until you hit that burnout and cancel. Then pick up EQ2 and start playing. That should give you a good 3 to 6 months into their release and they should have some of the (potential) problems fixed from (an early) release.

Hehe, sorry I can't help it, but it's kinda funny seeing the WW2Online guy say that PvP doesn't interest him...  But yeah, your assessment sounds about right.  Strangely, I somehow converted my wife into a PvP fiend.  I cancelled DAOC after getting bored to tears, and here she is still playing her Battleground wizard, while I read a book.  So I'm thinking she and I should enjoy the whole WoW PvP battleground concept, once it's implemented.

Just out of curiousity, Bruce, what is it that EQ2 has other than grinding that you would do? Even with all the quests, the only thing I could see doing is wandering around looking at stuff.

Ratonga, kerran, iksar, froglocks... Sorry. I had to go there.

The one time I try to be serious, you gotta make me piss myself laughing.

You might just be onto something there, Souk...

Screw that, pick up Halo and Half Life 2 on the same day (days before WoW and EQ2). Play those til you get bored. Pick up the new Metal Gear Solid and Splinter Cell til you get bored. Then get Guild Wars.

This recipe = success.

I think I need a shower now.

This is pretty much my plan at this point.

Halo, MGS, SC = thumbsticks. I don't do console shooters.

Half-life 2? I'll wait for the reviews while I'm playing the new Vampire game. I'm one of the half dozen people who enjoyed the original.

WoW and EQ2 are both somewhat the same in this regard. However, both are improved versions of a five year old established formula (sure it's older, but most know it by EQ and not from which it was derived). There's an allure there to at least give it a shot.

Because both are the same though, he (and I, and some others) are trying to decide which to dump time into first. It's not an easy decision because of the similarities. They're both going to sell well, there's a compulsion to be in at least one of them.

Even if it is just about the production values at first.

PvP in a PvP-centric game interests me.  I enjoyed parts of WW2 Online, and I loved M:tGO until their insane pricing scheme came along.  I was a big Manalink player back in the day.  But I don't want it in my MMORPG.

The relatively modest success of PvP MMOGs like WW2OL, PlanetSide, ShadowBane, and PvP-servers in other MMOGs, along with their combined headaches, should be ample evidence to give one pause in embracing such an idea again.

Bruce

I liked Rasix's answer better than this one, but...

1. Quest-hunting.  There's lots of little quests hidden all over the place.  I'm a completeist -- I want to do EVERYTHING, and have them all in my quest list.  So I can always do easy quests just to say, "I've done that!"  There will also be a lot of stuff involving being the first to discovery a new loot item, and getting your name in lights in the EQ2 database.

2. Books.  Lots of books to read, and book quests to follow to boot.

3. Crafting.  Okay, some of this is a grind too, but it's a different sort of grind and far more interesting than the carpal-tunnel-inducing SWG type of crafting.

4. Exploration.  Actually, this is another one of my major gripes -- there should be outdoor maps, ala WoW.  But in any case, eventually I'll run around just to see, for example, all three entrances to BlackBurrow.

Bruce

I said this many months ago. The generic->specific class stuff is a terrible idea, it's the ultimate in being able to gimp your character. You have no idea how your guy will play till you hit the most specific class, then oops, you hit him.

See, now this is something every game should have for us EKA types. I just wish that exploration in most MMOGs gets you dead often enough to make it about as fun as taking a blunt instrument to your genitalia. I would love to see XPs for this type of thing- even a cartographer skill or crafting line.

Gee thanks, Ras.  I now have a serious case of the hiccups.

EQ2 does actually give you experience for going to places you haven't been before. Very positive thing. The lack of outdoor maps is infuriating. I'm spoiled by CoH. I don't need to have the whole zone mapped, just reveal the parts I've already seen. And for Pete's sake, mark NPC's I've already talked to who gave me the quest I just completed for them.

One thing EQ2 will not be on release, at least for the early levels, is content-deficient. There are asstons of quests.

Haemish,

I am honestly not trying to de-rail anything here, but I think when the looking glass is pointed back at the release of COH, we will see it was truly the first tier second generation of the MMORPG universe.  Reason I point to that little sentence of yours is that it fits many things that COH has provided, from speed of travel, unique character buiding, fast combat, and the backend enchancement customization metagame.

Okay.. now for EQ2.  I am actually of the boat that no maping till you get a skill that will allow you to do so, at least in a fantasy based setting.  In COH it works because anyone should be able to pick up a bloody road map.  Hell, you can get state ones for free...  Though I do agree that EQ2 should have some feature to map if none is present.

Bruce,

Are their libraries or something full of lore?  Last bloody game that I remember just having books lying about was UO...

The lack of outdoor maps is a bit odd after playing games like COH but honestly its not a big deal. Once you go out and explore a bit the world is really well done with lots of nice land marks to use to navigate. They also give quests for some of the bigger zones that has you find these navigation points and rewards you pretty well for doing so.


Frankly part of me is glad that there is no radar and no automap in outdoor areas. It does lend a bit more spice to navigation and finding these things. WoW handles this pretty well though and I really would not mind a WoW like outdoor map.

kaid

Stream-of-consciousness warning!

What about having an exploration skill (akin to crafting) where people would explore and a map would be generated as they entered new areas.  Once enough of the land mass had been explored to create a map, the player would gain some boost in skill (perhaps map accuracy, addition of landmarks, etc.).  Then players with this skill could then sell the maps (as some tangible trade item) to other players as a method of making money.  A non-explorer buying said maps of varying quality would simply add them to a map-type book that they could refer to while travelling.

You create a skill that some people would enjoy and create a player driven economy at the same time.

Master Image Designer     ...has mastered the Image Designer profession

Sometimes peen waving is just indecency.

While a fine idea, and one proposed a few times on the beta forums, the reality is that the same people who'd enjoy using it are already parsing logs through mapping software to get the same result.

No game has done a good ingame mapping tool. Most haven't even tried. Either you're exposing a fog of war or you're using something that barely adheres to the vaguest interpretation of "tool", like the p.o.s. mapmaker released with EQlive Legacy of Ykesha.

It's certainly possible. Every day I tweak the code in the Shockwave-based mapper I've built. It's nothing. Anyone who's even walked by a book on Visual Basic can bang one out. This would be a joke for pros, take them maybe an hour start to finish.

But I guess they figure very few people are going to bother using it, so why bother spending resources on it?

It just means that, yet again, a big honkin' game doesn't provide all of the information a player wants within it.


I can see that. Still the same core concept, but the game play is different enough, and the thing is polished as heck. By the time City of Villains comes out, and how much more feature complete it becomes by then, I think CoH has some true chance at some big numbers.

Exact opposite, here.  I'll pick up HL2 review unseen (a physical copy, thanks much, and fuck you, Steam), but after how disappointed I was by the first Vampire game I'll wait for the reviews.  Still, looks like they addressed a lot of the suck in the first game.

Actually, there were libraries in a few of the cities of EQ1. You could go there and read books that were in the library.

The library introduced into EQ as part of the planes of power expansion has a number of lore books for sale (no drop and cheap from memory) some of which give clues to in-game quests. The problem being that EQ lore has been largely stagnant since the original launch. There's just not much to say.

There was a thread about a lore library in WoW on the beta boards, the developers like the idea but didn't think it would see much useage and didn't have the time pre-release. Not that I expect them to actually include such things post-release.

In EQ2, there are books that you can find sometimes that contain lore, that are quest-related.  In the cities, you can purchase books, read the lore, and they'll have a quest associated with the book that you can complete.  When you've completed one, you get a book furniture item you can place in your house for everyone to read.

I know WoW has books as well, and you can read them and have a librarian copy them, but I don't know if they ever give quests.

Bruce

I once spent an entire evening  reading the walls in The Neverhood. (http://www.eliram.com/thoughts/neverhood_chronicles.html)

Advancement Path: Tactics (http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general&message.id=225500)


Seems like this feature is already in the game.  But I guess now you can only pick a few racial enemies instead of being able to master all of them in time.  That's too bad - I was looking foward to earning mastery for each monster type on my own.  Boo.

Yeah, that's strange, are they removing the current LORE quests???

Bruce

It's a little different in that Priests and Scouts get abilities that affect the enemy in some way rather than doing straight damage like they do now.

*groan*

Wow, tactics is just... that's even more bland and boring than the Traits. I think I just had a reverse erection.

As for the mapping options, I'd much prefer if they gave characters who wanted it a map-making skill, allowing them to sell the maps, etc. THAT would fit the roleplaying aspect sorely lacking in most MMOG's to a tee. I don't think it matters whether or not someone like Darniaq can do one on their own, or if the fan site community will make their own maps. Let them. As it is right now, the fan sites like Allakhazam's and EQMaps will be vitally needed. It isn't like the lack of a map or automapping feature in EQ1 stopped anyone from using maps. I used them all the time, printed off the web; in some instances, especially when leading a raid, they were vital. With zones as big as they've chosen to make, those maps will be a feature that is much needed and most will use them. I'm not sure how this could be a hard feature to implement, but given the lack of it, it must be pretty difficult for the current team to do. Again, I'm not asking for radar or even information the character wouldn't have; I just want to be able to get back to where I was without stumbling around for an hour.

AO did maps quite well. You had a map skill and you had to purchase maps for areas. When you purchased a map, the level of your map skill determined how much information the map displayed. They could even do something like WoW and still have players purchase maps. Have a player buy a map for an area and have the general outline. Then as a player travels around the zone, areas of the map become uncovered and show landmarks, etc. that the player finds. This is very easy to do and I'm surprised that they haven't done it. It would be a nice feature and above are just two easy and intuitive ways that they could implement it.

SOE sold a book of EQ1 maps, which did little more thant cause the guy who did EQatlas to quit in disgust. It's vaguely possible they might be planning to do the same with EQ2, disallowing in game mapping to make it more commercially viable. It certainly fits in with their, "... and for another 99 cents" revenue model.

Ugh.  Yeah, sorry about that, completely unintentional punnage.

Sort of correct. How much info is displayed depends on what "upgrades" (with skill requirements) you install: directional arrow (25), machines (50), people (80), monsters (130) and side... hell, noone bother with that.

One strange thing about the AO maps is that each side (clan, omni, neutral) has a set of starting maps they load in one go as early as level 1. These can include some maps that, if purchased separately, have high skill requirements. Sounds strange, but it's reasonable that people of the given side needs those maps early on.

Also, they haven't been updated as the game has progressed (e.g. the Tir city map does not show the new bridge on the west side, nor the new teleporter locations - it still shows one teleporter on top of the basic store).

But all in all, AO has the best map system in the games I've tried.

This all sounds vaguely like the champions/gurps system of advantages.  However i'd prefer it if these were all available at character creation.  And we should be able to take a DISadvantage, in order to gain an additional advantage.

I looked at the posted examples of racial abilities.  Neat stuff to be sure - but the project management issues here is already becoming case material for an MBA program.

The Barbarian can track, the Elf can boost his power, and the dwarf can... summon ale.

These guys in panic mode.  It's rather ironic of the posted examples of racial abilities - they did not mention Ogre or Troll.

They don't want to be to obvious about their 180 degree turn here - does anyone recall SOE saying that the Ogre resistance to frontal stun or the Troll regeneration of EQ would never be in EQ2?  Hard not to introduce those changes now considering the racial abilities (dwarf aside lol) now described for other classes.

Again I support the changes.  But it's panicked and rushed and I am idly amused.

Yup, and it's still in their race FAQ (http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=8&no_redir=true), hence my snide comment earlier.

Admittedly, they only posted 1 ability for a few races, when each race supposedly has 10 to choose from.  The samples seem to run the gamut from RP-use-only to mildly useful in combat to fairly useful.  Really, did you expect anything else from a sample?

I think this, to a certain extent, defeats the point of getting rid of the race distinctions... they seemed so intent on that for EQ2, and now they're going back to the EQ1 method, with added grind.

What I wanna know is, why, if members of my race have the inherent ability to hide, do I not have it from level 1, but instead have to wait till I'm high enough level, and then choose it?  Racial benefits chould be active when you choose your race, not some long time later.  This kinda junk is turning me off to the game, really...  Tho WoW's silly update scheme isn't encouraging me to play that, either.  Guess I'll keep paying Cryptic for CoH.

--
Alkiera

Now, a couple things of note....
1) Stats do not matter at all in this game. 1 stam = 2hps. 1 int = 1 mana. Stat gear is usually fairly small. So, giving a class the ability to gain +5 int or stam or whatever is a red herring aimed to fool people. Its doing nothing in practice, though it looks like a change. So, thats not fooling me. (unless they alter the stat formulas).

2) The ability to train in specialized area is a red herring. There is no difference between this and upgrading your spells/powers to a higher level. This isnt fooling me either. It sounds like a change, but all it is adding more efficient abilities to every class, the pace of combat already is too easy and fast. This is nothing.

3) Racial traditions sound good. They were discussing these not long ago and had decided not to implement anything that might shake up balance. So, that either means A) theyve changed their mind or B) the racial traditions are so minute in nature (i.e. Iksar regen/Ac bonus) that they do not significantly matter. Juries out on this one, could be good.

4) Enemy mastery is not new. This has been in the game. Basically, you get a quest to learn about a monster type (skeles for example). You then have to fetch 10 or so lore rare item drops off skeles. Upon completion, you get a "title" and a new power that is usable against skeletons only and does bane damage. While this is pretty neat and an example of a fun little side quest, its not new. No idea why they stuck this in here.

SUMMARY

Im skeptical on the majority of fronts because outside of racial bonuses, this stuff doesnt really appear to be significant., no matter how they try to spin in it.