f13.net

More and more I read posts from people in a situation much like mine. Hardcore gaming friends leave you in the dust. Always making new characters because you can't decide which class you want to be. Only have 6-10 hours a week to play (or less!). End up playing solo since it takes too long to find a decent group. Have kids and a wife and other things to do that are more "important". Often have real life interrupt gaming time and you need to log out right away.

Why isn't there an MMORPG guild out there dedicated to these people? People that do other things besides sit in front of a game 8 hours a night. Is it just not going to work? I would think if you could get 100 (or more) people together like this, people that level slowly, it would be a perfect way to get a group together for the 30 minutes you have to play. Everyone would understand the situation.

Or perhaps the small amount of gametime people in this guild would play means that you would log in to the game and nobody else would be on.

In the past I tried to get into large guilds figuring there would always be someone around my level. It seems that is not the case as the guilds all level away from me and focus on other high-level things. Perhaps I've just been unlucky.

Anyone else in my situation have some ideas that would work better?

I've personally been trying to get a "game night" group together for the past couple years. 6-8 people who can meet on a given night during the week (the day can vary based on schedules) for like 2 hours to do a fun MMOG adventure thing. I found some people who tried this with me, but the other players didn't actually have the same schedule I do. They actually were powergamers who were trying to be nice to me. Problem was they ended up liking their once a week characters so much that they would play them other days of the week and ended up leveling out of range. And then they wanted me to wait with my main and help them level up a new alt to play along with me once a week. I didn't. Not out of selfishness, but because they would just end up leveling those past me as well once they attained my level. I don't mind helping people, but this group was meant to be a once a week deal and everyone was at the same level and we could adventure and not rehash the same old shit just to PL someone. Damn, that sounds whiny as all hell, but that's what happened. So yeah, I've tried that at least, but never a full-fledged guild as you suggest.

I tried to make my guild in EQ into that type of guild.

Unless you know the folks in RL, it doesn't work. There is always someone who can't level slowly, or who wants all the uber stuff but without having to deal with the uber-asshole mentality. Half the guild will be patient "it's the journey" type of people, and half will be the "it's the goal" type of people. The latter half tend to resent the former half because they aren't always around to help out on shit like raids. The former half tends to resent the latter half because they have all the good shit. Trying to put in rules to make sure each side gets their fair share at the loot just ends up with the leader, which was me, doing nothing but coming up with ever more arcane rules to make sure everyone got a chance to do everything. You end up trying so hard to make everyone else happy that you are miserable.

Of course, it could be that levels are socially-divisive and loot-centric gameplay makes even the most level-headed person into a whoring cockmunch.

What I've seen that works well for casuals is to join whatever guild arises from your community.  So, the next time a bunch of f13er's jump into a game, come along and join in if you're interested.

See, there's a lot of problems I see with a casually oriented guild and have experienced somewhat in both DAoC and SWG.

1.  Casuals lack commitment/contribution.  When I log into a game and I've got maybe 2 hours max; that's my time.  The most I'll contribute is idle chatter, some help if it's convienent and maybe a group every once in a while.

2.  Apathy and attrition strike faster.  Casual players care less about their games.  They quit easier. They lose interest easier.  What results is a guild that no one really gives a crap about and that has no forward momentum at all.  

3.  Hard to find anyone on.  1-2 hours a night with different habbits and time zones makes it feel like a graveyard at times.  

4.  Lack of good groups, needed classes.  Chalk this up to #3 and poor game design.

A casually oriented guild I just don't see surviving unless it's part of something greater.  Since you don't really share a burning passion for the game(s) you're playing, there needs to be a different social glue holding you together.  Otherwise it'll just become a message board where you're lucky to get 1 post a day.

Guilds coming from communties tend to have a decent mix of casual/hardcore.  Seemingly more former than the later.  The members are usually pretty easy going, helpful, mature, and not so raving psychotic about the game.  Plus, the guild eventually becomes it's own entity feeding off the game and becomes less reliant on the community that spawned it and in turn tends to give back to the community.

Just avoid having Bloodcat in your guild. At all costs. You'll want to strangle him by day 3.  (sorry, inside joke)

Edit: Off topic, but I might put something together for WoW if it's needed.  Not sure how my other friends would react to this, but it might be nice to have something incase people are wondering what to do.

I will be playing World of Warcraft, Horde, I am going to play an orc thief.  Non-PVP server.  I have several RL friends joining.  Happy to have anyone from the community join, and would be more than happy to take one night a week to set time aside to play with a bunch of F13'rs.

I'll be horde/non-pvp also.  So, at least we should pick the same server.  :) Most likely playing a troll shaman (setting up a 3 shaman trio with 2 of my friends).

Hmm, yeah I can see there might be some problems. Do you put in levelling restrictions, a sort of Logan's Run ruleset? Anyone that reaches a level 5 higher than the next highest gets kicked out? Restrict it to certain days/hours like the "game night" idea?

I, too, have had my friends that play ALL THE TIME offer to start a second character to play whenever I'm on, but that has never worked. It's either "Oh sorry I am in the middle of this awesome quest right now, but I'll be done in 5 or 6 hours." or else they really like the new character and start to play them past my character's level. And then I've had the powerlevel offerings. Truth be told, I don't *want* to rush through the game in order to catch up to them. I really enjoy the game at my pace, I just get a little tired of playing by myself all the time.

Some may suggest playing a single player game, but that is not the same thing. I enjoy the persistant world and character development of the MMORPGs, not to mention the constant updating of content, quests, etc.

A "game night" would just about be perfect for me as well. A regularly scheduled night of 2 hours of gaming. Easy for me to block away 2 hours a week without interruption. Finding 6 or 8 people I like to game with that want to do this may not be so easy. If only it could be like when I used to get together once a week to play D&D with my friends, but of course back then I was single and we often played all night long anyway.

Edit: I'll also be playing WoW, prefer Horde non-pvp. Currently have a level 14 Undead Rogue and it has been a pleasure to play during the beta.

there was a waterthread community guild in FFXI when it released.  it worked out great.  good mix of power gamers and ultra-casual.  part of the fun of having a good mixed guild is that when power gamers make their 2nd and 3rd characters, there are lower level (casual) players that they can play with too.  

again, it was a great community-oriented guild and i'm hoping a lot of those people will get back together for WoW & EQ2.

You know.. Bat Country just sounds good for a Horde guild... what you think?

I think I'll wait for Guild Wars. You're welcome to use the name and represent, y0.

It actually fits pretty well.   I'm sure we'll gel something together a bit easier come 1 week before release.  Then it'll clearer who all's going to play and who's not.  If my two friends bail on me, I'll be somewhat reluctant to play.



Nope, you can't really do that.  The thing is with a casual player you can't shoehorn them into a schedule.  You've pretty much got to leave everyone up to their own devices and hope somehow you get something out of it.

Agreed, that is what normally chases me out of a guild. Rules, restrictions, schedules, etc.

Only rule I usually put forth with a casual guild is "no stupid names".  Generally this is to try and keep the maturity level high.  In a fantasy themed game, I don't like folks obliterating my immersion by naming themselves "EatMorChiken" or "Heywood Jablowme".

I have a pretty dedicated guild on the Horde/PVP. We will be playing the same at retail. A few people from here have joined. If any one is interested, send me a PM, and I can give you more info.

We are a friendly, PVP/PVE oriented, with just touch of RP (Not required). No stupid names, no idiots, have fun and such. We have a nice spread of casual to hardcore people, so there is usually a group of most level ranges going.

I'm definitely up for something like this. Does it have to be WoW or EQ2, though?

/agree. Everquest 1 or Everquest 1. You can play either, as long as it's Everquest 1.

EQ1 would be an extremely poor choice. Any content that has not been obsoleted needs 50-70 dedicated people to progress. And there's virtually no non-raiding progression in the game. But heck, it should be entertaining seeing how far you get.

Yeah, the last EQ guild we had didn't really seem to work.

Casual friendly goes a long way, but we'd also need to have some sort of organized time for us all to meet, otherwise we'll run into the CoH problem we had.

Casual guilds work in economic sims like Eve and ATITD because they're replete with opportunities for players to be off doing their own thing but feeding into a greater good. SWG and UO is the same.

Games with strict level requirements get tricky. They force casual players to think non casually. They either know eachother in real life, or someone's getting left behind. Even in a Sidekick+ game.

I prefer a casual sub-guild form from a larger more focused guild. The casual players will come and go, but there's generally some focused guild members kicking around who are interested in playing an alt, or helping you out.

Power/Casual guilds will work fine in either WoW or EQ2. They do require out-of-game coordination, as all guilds do. But casual players don't need to be part of that to benefit from it. As long as the casual knows their place in the "grand scheme of things" of course.

Like, if they want their Epic, they're going to need to spend many nights helping others getting their's before them. That can work. Helping people gets returned favored and what-not. But casuals are sometimes closet wannabe powergamers who get annoyed by this. To their detriment.

Anyway short answer: casual guilds by themselves generally do not work well in levels-based adventuring games. But there are options.

Jesus, you totally missed what I was saying.

Let's recap:



WoW or EQ2. Same core level grinding item-centric catassing.



You see what I did there? I replaced WoW and EQ2 with Everquest 1 and Everquest 1.

Kind of like, you can have any drink you want - as long as it's Olde English.

...sigh...why do I bother?

Because you care too much.

Anyhow, I know casual/community guilds really don't work well in level based games.  But, it's as good place as any to chat, find groups at times, and provide a temporary stop for the powergamers that will eventually join good guilds.

It also allows you to have a website/forum where you can bitch and chat about all aspects of the game without annoying people that just don't care.

This is something I've been looking for, for several years also.  A once-a-week kinda commitment  that everyone agrees to - a gaming night like Soukyan refers to.  Unfortunately, like Haemish says, its very tough to get that going outside of people you know in RL.  I'm trying to do that with some old friends from the UK in DAoC - level up from newbies once a week and hit the BGs - the first day it worked well - I have NO clue if we'll be able to keep it going - timezone differences suck and RL plans pre-empt.  I can but hope!

Darniaq is right about economic MMOG/portions of MMOGs in terms of casual commitments - you can feel like you're helping the guild without HAVING to be on at the same time as others.  However, for me at least, this just isn't enough to keep me going for a long-term period - I need adventure, with friends!

Every few months when someone mentions EQ1, I get the shivers to go back - my last visit there ended the usual way though - with nobody to play with.  I think EQ1 would work very well for a casual gaming-night kinda thing - with the level curve it would take a WHILE to get to the high-level raiding content so in that time you would hopefully make plenty of contacts to be able to take part in this.  Now, if I can only rope another 5 people in to come do this!  Not likely...

Actually, I had more luck getting people I met online to meet once per week than I did with my real life friends. Neither ended up lasting very long, but the group with the online folks lasted a couple months and was a damn good time all around. So, it can be done. It just takes a certain maturity level combined with a small time commitment and the willingness to do it. Personally, I didn't see how it was any different than when I used to get together once a week to play D&D (with the exception that D&D last for many hours on end). Perhaps I'm just different, but I meet once a week with several other musicians to practice our music for a couple hours so I suppose it's just a matter of discipline that allows that to carry over into a weekly gaming group for me.

Oddly enough, the only thing holding me back from a "ME TOO" post is that I'm not sure I'd be able to commit even to a casual 2-3 hr a week thing.

Man, what a sad state I've reached.

Soukyan - you're absolutely right - the d&d/music practice analogy is perfect in terms of this.  It does take a certain amount of discipline and planning, as well as being able to say to your family 'I have plans at X time on Y night so I'm not available for anything else' - ironically that can be more difficult to do when you're sitting on the computer at home than actually going OUT somewhere - theres a perception that since you're at HOME you aren't doing anything you can't just drop at any moment to go do a chore or run an errand, or just sit down and watch TV with the family.  I guess thats where the analogy can diverge a little.

I'm lucky right now with my aforementioned little group with my UK friends - since I don't get to hang out with them very often anymore I get a bit more leeway in terms of a scheduled group!

I'd certainly like to at least try and do something like this with people I didn't know IRL though - I get on well with a bunch of you in this community and it'd be a blast I think - at least an interesting experiment - certainly cheaper than trying to start a D&D group/Wargaming group - I think I can stretch to 12.95 or so a month to try out a different game as opposed to the initial investment of cards/rulebooks/figurines...

I'm in a casual guild for City of Heroes. Thanks to the sk/exemplar system it is chugging along just fine. I'm not going to play another level based MMO unless they implement similiar mechanics - otherwise the disencentive to play with people who have lives external to your MMO is to great.

No thanks. So for me, not just no, but fuck no to EQ2 and WoW.

I like the idea. A set in stone 'guild night' once a week flies in the face of the whole concept of casual, however.

I don't think it does, at least not for me. Having one set day a week, would actually free up some other days that I would normally waste logging in to see if anyone is playing. I might actually be online less!

The best you can do for this is set the date and hope people show up.  For example, I was involved in a very casual EQ guild for a long time called event dates or even set times for people to get together on a random the Champions of Cabilis. This was an all iksar guild that had no real membership requirements beyond the obvious one.  They'd try to set basis.  It was usually a complete failure although sometimes it worked and with usually unintentionally funny results.

Unlike a raid guild with attendance or die policies, most casuals guilds tend to get very low participation on any sort of set thing.  Of course, this is better than not even trying, and it does get people to make the effort.

I agree with Rasix on just picking a day and if possible and have the time to log in with the idea of joining up with guildies and running about creating mayhem.  I generally play an arse load of different characters, this mainly is because I like trying out all aspects of play until I settle on one I really like.  The current Diku-mud style means I have to constantly make new characters because the characters are class locked.  I can pretty much set aside at least one night a week for a 2-4 hour session.  Any more than that and it becomes dicey.  Not to say I will not play other times... If their is a level requirement (similar to COH) in the game of choice, then one of us with the most time that would like to take the option and run the gauntlet to get the guild started so we can add everyone to the structure.  At that point it really can be nothing more than a "hey I'm online wanna group" kinda thing.  Which is just what the guild in COH is like....

I'd be interested.  I'd only consider a timesink like EQ2 if I came into a guild of casuals.

I'd prefer CoH though.  They're rapidly adding more game and the entire product is ideally geared towards true casual play.

As much as I tout Guild Wars - the once a week thing may be perfect for it.

8 people in the guild log in, you go on a mission, do 2 pvp battles, and you've had an hour of good gaming in one night.

My point is not so much that once a week is onerous, just that declaring Wednesday (to pick a random day) is "guild night" makes it less likely that those of us whose play schedule varies from day to day and week to week will be able to attend regularly.

I would be more in favor of a once a week 'outing' with the time and place TBD each week depending on how many folks can attend.

That can work, as long as those who really enjoy the game have alts they play during such sessions. They can be off playing their "real"/main character most times and just drop in with their toy once a week.

Guild Wars is a unique vehicle for this sort of thing though, because the subscription doesn't force people to evaluate the game for anything more than it is: fun or not.

I'm still unconvinced about GW until I hear more about it.  Of course, it's not like I've done any research on the subject.

Main things I'm concerned with:

How much PvE before you're viable for the PVP?

How quickly are they going to try to push out $50 expansions to offset the lack of a monthly fee?

How badly is not having an expansion going to fubar your experience?

Is the PvE going to be less crappy than what I saw in that one week play session?

This might be one title I wait a month or three on before jumping in.  Especially to see how long it takes the shiney to wear off the title.  Definitely a title to look at though for a more casually oriented guild; no monthly is great for when you feel like playing something else for a while.

Guild Wars doesn't function quite like that. It's a matter of picking spells before you go into battle. It's very much a tactical decision more than a level 10 vs level 5 thing. They've continuously said that level difference isn't going to be a difference in dominating pvp.



Once every 3 months, though i'm sure after a year it'll be ever 5-6 months. Also, it's $30-$50 expansions. They haven't decided yet. If they are $30, I'd be more willing to buy 4 a year rather than 2-3 at $50.



It won't. People with the expansion can invite people without it into the expansion areas. The people who don't purchase them just can't go in them on their own.



Well let's see. It's diablo with a little twitch (you can dodge arrows, aim, etc). If you like that there's not really anything wrong with the combat.



It's fucking Diablo! Why wait? It'd be one thing if there was a big EQ type world in it, but there isn't. You warp around, do an area, get out. Do you like Diablo?

My argument for this is funny, if WoW had anything to do with Warcraft III aside from graphics and world I would have been more inclined to go all fanboi on that too (cuz I love Blizzard - well, mostly Blizzard North). Meh. Guild Wars = Diablo 3D. (hahaha, 3, D, see what I did there?)

More or I less I was wondering how long before you have a decent retinue of spells and abilities to choose from? If they're going for the Planetside model of flexibility over power when it comes to levels, then they've increased my likelyhood to buy by quite a bit.

And yes, I liked Diablo.  However, I disliked its sequel.  I know people think that game is free Jesus, but fuck, after a month I was glad to just walk away with a bad case of tendonitis.  But I do like the action/rpg style so I'm sure I could have decent fun with GW.

Yes, it's flexibility over power.

Let me put a caveat on the casual guild thing.

I think that with games where instancing is used correctly, and I do NOT use EQ2 as an example of that, a casual guild is much more likely to be a workable idea. In a shitfest like EQ where there are static camps of monsters at the later levels, like dragons and such, doing such things with a casual guild is impossible, because the hardcores will continually beat you to the punch. In a game like CoH where it's more about instancing content for the group, casual guilds are much more likely to be able to exist with both hardcore and casual style players.

Hey Schild, in GW when one creates a character, does there have to be a secondary class?

Yes. From the most recent information I have, that is.

Hrm... i don't suppose you could do a detailed info thread (like the EQ2 one) about GW when you have time or something?

It'd be really neat to know more about the game from a good source (since their website is a little bland and their forums link to the vault).

How about the list of available games we have now? What could we all jump into at this point in time to actually play together? Exclude betas.

I've been thinking about getting some sort of online tracking thing so everyone could list their games and we could have like some sort of massive library so people could coordinate shit like that, double.

--

Megrim, I am actually trying to get a team into the Guild Wars Alpha. I'm in touch with NCSoft but my contact is uhm....silent at the moment. Not sure what the issue is - as soon as I can get my hands untied on some information and a team in, you can be sure I'll start a thread.

Sounds like pretty easy database work, but fuck if I know how to do it. The last thing I wrote shit for was dBase when I was ten and helping my mother's at-home business. It failed. The business, not the database.

No, I don't. I hated D2 & never played Diablo itself. When I tried playing D2 I couldn't get into it and it gave me wrist pains from all the clicking.  

So you're saying if I didn't like D2 I shouldn't bother with GW then?

Do you like Diablo? I mean I can guarantee you at release it will be a strategy-centric pvp game with a single/group game PvE variant that basically comes down to treasure hunting.

Er.. I thought I covered that.  No, I don't like Diablo.

Strategic PvP intrigues me.. random Diablo/ D2 loot doesn't. It's a treadmill of a different color, only worse because instead of foozles in a different setting it's the same foozles a billion times over until you win the lotto.  My luck sucks and I haven't won a lotto or casinos, ever.  If that loot is as important as I understand it to be in Diablo/D2 then I can give GW a pass.

I quite enjoy Diablo and Diablo 2. Other than Fallout and Fallout 2 I can't think of a game I've replayed more often. That said I found GW to be quite boring and badly designed in several aspects.

I'll mostly likely eyeball it when it comes out but I doubt I'll be purchasing it at this time.

on the topic of GW, I really got into it during the "E3 for Everyone" event they held last year. If you guys are interested, and it sounds like a few of you are, they are hosting another 'open house' sort of event on the weekend after this upcoming one (last weekend of october). Everyone will be able to download the client (the client itself is actually rather small, they use an interesting streaming content system so the game doesn't take up much HD space), and play the game all weekend at no obligation.

It sounds like the game has matured quite a bit since the alpha-level game that was presented at E3. This will be a good opportunity to check it out and see how the game is shaping up.

Yeah, E3 was really fun and I'll be trying out the next "open house" session also. As a side note, I highly disliked D2 and never played Diablo, but I found GW to be quite fun for the small amount of time I played it. It felt more like DAoC group vs. group combat than D2 to me, but I guess that's because I was more focused on the group combat strategy.

Well, roughly speaking, Diablo was to Diablo 2 as The Empire Strikes Back was to Jar-Jar Binks. Here is to hoping that GW has some honest to goodness quality gameplay.

 + thanks Shild

I liked the GW E3 event as well. The PVE was pretty boring, but the PVP was right nice. As long as I can do more of the latter than the former and be competitive, it's all good.

I also quite liked the E3 demo and, although I'm very afraid of the sort of community it might  attract, I plan to make GWs my game on the side.  Now, all I need is the right game for my main.  I'd be willing to join up with a casual GW guild.  I miss my PvP.

As far as casual guilds, The Bobs (http://www.brotherhood-of-bob.com) are as casual as it gets. There are no requirements to join or stay a member other than having "Bob" in your name. THe guild has fallen into extreme disrepair due lack of attention, but there really hasn't been anything worth playing since AoS broke UO. I'm planning on starting it back up for GW and WoW so hopefully they'll lend themselves to oour style of play. For information on what we're about, follow the link and start with the earliest archives.

I have been a fan of the Bobs for a while. I think it might be time to break down and join. Thank you for the link.

I think I remember you from UO angry.bob ... if you're the same guy from Atlantic...

Was anything ever decided regarding this?

Regarding what? A casual MMOG guild?

There would've been a decision, but everyone is too uninvolved to do so.

There's no decision because all games up to and including eq2 and WoW are for Catassers and catassers friends. Nothing casual about them. People say WoW is casual. But those people are playing it like 12 hours a day and jerkin it to pictures of dwarves and stuff. I don't trust them. The idea is madness until better games come out.

I've been beta testing WoW for several months. I play maybe 8 hours a week on the high end. The game is about as perfect as an MMORPG has ever been for me, even better than CoH. I preordered and will continue to play it.

As far as a casual guild is concerned, I was under the impression that it just doesn't work very well.

After playing a bit of GuildWars I can pretty much say it wouldn't work for what we're doing. It's not really massive enough and would require team speak since it's really easy to lose chat in the way the interface is set up. That and people seem to be a bit skewed when it comes to general perceptions of the game.

We're playing mid level game. Generally the worst of any game. We don't know if it's massive at all. We can't judge this until there's an actual beta from level 1 - xx. Until then, I can guarantee there won't be a casual guild for WoW or EQ2.