f13.net

For reasons that are too dull to go into, I find myself renting a flat in a far away place and I could be there for a while.  I've got into my head that building an HTPC would be a good thing to do while I've got the time and have started trying to find out what the best approach is.  So far, I've found bits and bobs but it's all several years old so I'm hoping that some of you technical, gadget orientated types might have an idea.  Considerations:

- I only want this to play films, music, TV and stuff so I don't need a gfx card that will play Crysis in max resolution with all the bells and whistles.  
- HTPC case - worth it or waste of money? (I like the idea of having something which looks like it's a replacement for stuff under the TV but it's not a deal breaker)
- Viiv mobo: way to go or not?
- What OS?  Windows Media Edition or something else?  If WME then what flavour - XP or Vista?
- Best recommended approach for silent running/cooling?
- How much HDD space is worthwhile for recording TV?  (I considered putting all my film collection onto HDD too but worked out that at 3-5GB a film, I'd need 2TB or more just for what I've currently got)

Cheers!

Not necessary. In fact I don't think Intel's newest chipsets fall into that marketing category.

I've never used any form of Windows Media Edition so I can't comment on that.

http://silentpcreview.com

Capturing standard definition analog TV broadcasts at your typical "DVD quality" (720x480 for NTSC, ~4.5 Mbps) takes up ~2.3 GB/hour. Capturing high definition unencrypted digital TV varies depending on the resolution and fps of the broadcast and can range from ~7 GB/hour for FOX's 720p to ~11 GB/hour for NBC or CBS's 1080i. When capturing analog you can adjust the quality (change resolution, bit rate, etc.) which will alter how much space the show will take up. With digital you can't make any adjustments -- it just captures the raw MPEG-2 data stream (which is why those HDTV capture devices are so cheap). You would have to postprocess the files with a transcoder if you wanted to squeeze the shows down to take up less room.

In other words you'll need lots and lots and lots of disk space if you plan on archiving lots of TV shows (especially HDTV ones) and leaving them on the hard drive(s).

Cheers Trippy.

What about things like CPU speed?  I've heard that you can get away with slower CPUs that will keep heat/noise down but is there any kind of top level where speed over a certain point is redundant for this sort of thing or is it still a case of faster CPU is better regardless.

It doesn't sound like HDD space will be too much of a problem - I was planning 500GB and any recording isn't for archiving, just for not missing stuff.  It's not essential as we've been without any way of recording from the TV for about 3 or 4 years.  I'm also not precious when it comes to video quality - as long as it's watchable then that's fine. 

Mulit-core is more important than clock speed just for general usage as an HTPC unless you also plan on transcoding to other formats in which case you want as many cores as you can afford *and* high clock speeds. For the video capture part as long as you are either capturing digital programming or have an analog capture card with a hardware MPEG-2 encoder then the load on your average "enthusiast" CPU is negligible. I.e. if you aren't dong any transcoding on the machine and you have a hardware encoder then even a low-end dual-core processor would be more than sufficient. I can run a CPU-intensive game that stresses both cores on my now ancient A64 X2 3800+ and my video capture programs don't care one bit even when capturing mutiple streams simultaneously and I don't even notice while playing that they are capturing in the background.

If you are capturing a lot of digital streams, however, you'll probably at least want a dual hard drive setup with one drive dedicated to the captured video files.

One thing I forgot about regarding CPUs is that if you are going to be playing back H.264/AVC or other CPU-intensive codecs at high resolution like 1080P you won't want to totally skimp on the CPU. Looking at the Sony Blu-ray BD-ROM drive it lists it's minimum CPU requirement as a 3.4 GHz Pentium D which translates into roughly a 1.8 GHz Core 2 Duo so you probably don't want to get anything lower end than that.

I think my brain just imploded.

Thanks.  If I get around to this then I'll let you know how it ends up.

This (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?nnmm=browse&mco=MTE2NjE&node=home/shop_mac/family/mac_mini) or this (http://us.shuttle.com/G5_3300m.aspx).

The new NVidias - anything above and newer and including the 8600 GTS include their on board HD Decoding. My processor sits at about 2-5% whenever I'm running an HD-DVD. Anecdotal, sure. But there's that.

I don't consider the Mac mini a good alternative for an HTPC if you plan on capturing TV programming. The built-in hard drives are small capacity-wise and slower since they are notebook 2.5" drives. Yes you can pry it open and put in another one (I did that with mine) but opening the case is difficult (even harder than the original Mac design) and you still have to make a tradeoff between capacity and speed (the 7200 RPM notebook drives don't go as big as the 4200 RPM ones). You of course can add external drives but since the Mac mini doesn't support eSATA you are again giving up performance even if you go with Firewire (it doesn't support Firewire 800). Then you would have to add an external capture box or two and maybe a little breakout box to handle the digital output (which uses a single stereo minijack-style connector). Next if you want a Blu-ray drive you'll need to add a powered USB hub cause you've run out of USB ports so now you've got 3 or 4 extra wall warts to contend with on top of the cabling and stacking mess you'll need to deal with. Total volume-wise it'll still probably be less than a full-sized HTPC case but it's just really messy in a home theater setup having every expansion item be an external item.

Also the GPU absolutely sucks for gaming. Yes I know DraconianOne said he didn't want to play Crysis on it but it's still a nice option to have in case he changes his mind and wants to do some gaming on it.

If he's serious about HD, a good graphics card isn't even an option. Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD and H264 dump off to the graphics card when applicable. Needless to say, I'm pretty sure that increases the life of the system, Maybe not. Whatever, it's nice to not have the processor going at full steam and smoke coming out of the chassis.

I've never checked out Media Center OS. I've been thinking of configuring an old box to host media for playback only (I'd capture on my newer box if I ever wanted to), and what I'd want to be doing would be things navigating my content from my couch and grabbing new stuff. I'd rather do this through iTunes because I like the service, but I don't want to buy an iTV in part because I have a good enough computer to do it already (and beaucoup storage), and in part because of what I learned from your other posts in this thread about the limitations :)

So, What do you use on your regular PC to navigate your media from the couch?

I'm watching TV on my regular computer monitor. However I have used a bunch of different programs that do have "TV UIs" that allow you to do that in conjuction with a special remote control device though I don't use the device (I just use my mouse). BeyondTV is probably the best known of the bunch. Currently I'm using SageTV to control my digital tuners and GB-PVR to control my analog ones.

BeyondTV is more polished and more configurable than SageTV but a lot of configuration options require using a separate browser UI while SageTV is "self-contained". BeyondTV also spawns a bazillion process when it's loaded which irks me while SageTV only has 2. There were some another reasons why I stopped using BTV but I can't remember them at the moment.

SageTV is a little glitchy controlling the analog tuners on my hybrid digital/analog cards for some reason -- it doesn't always capture the audio. GB-PVR doesn't have any issues with those tuners though and I was using it before with my older analog-only setup so I just continue to use that for the analog captures.

All three of the above support various remotes that are usually bundled with the capture devices.

The TV capture boards/devices may also come with their own interfaces but the ones I've seen suck. The ATI Catalyst Media Center software which comes with their Wonder cards/devices is barebones at best and the software that comes with the WinTV devices doesn't have a TV-style UI -- it's all meant to be controlled with a mouse and keyboard.

High-end GPUs typically run hotter than CPUs these days so if you aren't smoking one you're smoking the other :awesome_for_real:

Although I desperately need to upgrade my gaming rig, that's going to be next years project until I've finished this contract and am back at home during the week.  This is going to be a machine for the lounge.  It's highly improbable it's going to get overclocked but it does need to be quiet and cool.  I'm not after a gfx card that will give high performance for 3D so even something as low budget as an Radeon HD 2400 Pro will probably get me by but if I can push up to a high-end 3000 Series or Nvidia 8000/9000 while not having to sit the whole box in a freezer than all the better. 

I'm undecided as to whether to get a a blu-ray drive now for £85/$170 or wait for a while until the technology is bedded in, the drives come down in price and I actually start buying blu-ray discs which may not be for a a few months yet.  However, it's definitely on the cards so having a CPU and video card that's going to support it effectively. 

As for a mini-mac?  Are you kidding?  180Gb HDD?  I wouldn't scratch my arse with something that small!  The smallest drive I'm considering is a 500Gb but more than likely it'll have two drives of between 500-1000Gb each giving me 1-2TB of storage.  Why?  Because I Can.  A couple of Western Digital 750Gb Greenpower HDDs for £200 may do the job nicely.

All the info you could want and more on DIY HTPC can be found at the lumenlab forums:

lumenlab (http://lumenlab.com/forums/index.php)

while you are there build yerself a 1080p LCD projecter.

edit: also look at gbpvr (http://www.gbpvr.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=35) for software and if you want an ultra sleek case with a slim form factor there are some boards out there with onboard video that have an HDMI out Asus P5E-VM HDMI (http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=11&l3=584&l4=0&model=1912&modelmenu=1)

I also use Anydvd occasionally to get more from Netflix. (Can't store them on the HD very long as HD-DVD's take up like 23 gigs each).

NO! NO! NO!  WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?????

I'm going to have a lot of spare time on my hands and you point me in the direction of a step by step guide on how to build an LCD projector for ~£200?

I don't know whether to say "thank you" or "fuck you"!

I don't see how you're going to build a worthwhile projector for $400. I just read through a lot of that, and you're obviously not considering the time it takes. Not even to count proper cooling systems and weatherproofing the box in places with shite humidity.

Mostly, I find that DIY stuff Just Silly. I wish I didn't though. I'd probably have built a cheap projector by now. I'm half tempted to buy an extra PSP and try to make a projecting one though with a PS2 controller replacing the PSP controls. Now that would be a worthwhile project.

I don't think DIY is silly when it is a choice between spending a month building a 1080p projector for 1k vs spending 6k+ for a mass produced one.  Then again I like building stuffs.  Plus I am digging the whole plog concept and I hope it hits mainstream in every conceivable way.

edit: oh yeah they have a whole section on projecting using small LCD's so the psp thing has probably been done.


depends on your end results i suppose...  Talk to me in a few months about it, if you really are in BFE an interesting project is probably just the ticket for you.

Bit of a necro....

My current TV will display 720p (42" Panny plasma).  Somewhere down the road, I'm going to upgrade to a 1080p/i, but it's probably a couple years away.  At that point, something new and shiny will be out in the realm of media pc's and such, so right now, my main focus is on what I have.

50 percent of the time, it's going to be used for watching movies dl'd from the web.  Or web broadcasts. 
30 percent of the time, I'll be watching BlueRay DVDs.
The other 20 percent of the time, I *hope* to record whatever on TV for later viewing.

What I have is processor (AMD XP 5200+ dual core), mobo (Gigabyte - SLI, o/b sound, yadda yadda yadda), PSU (600W Antec), EVGA 7950GTKO, 4GB of RAM.

What I know I need are:  Media PC case (thinking a Zalman), capture card, lots of HD space.

That said, I was thinking of about 1TB worth of HD space, possibly 2TB since it's relatively cheap.  The video card probably needs to be replaced with something that has an HDMI out for maximum video quality, since the 7950GTKO only has DVI-D.  The mobo is 7.1, with digital optical out, so that covers my sound to my receiver - at least it should.  Now, for video capture, what is a solid choice?  This is the way I think it works in terms of video in from my digital box from Comcast:  Signal is sent to cable box to the capture card which is processed then sent OUT through the video card/sound. 
Is that right?

I assume there is TIVO like software out there?

I won't be gaming on it - it's mostly just a self indulgent thing for video. 

If you want to capture decrypted hi-def (ie: source coming out of your cable box) there's only one good solution that I've seen:
http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html
I have no idea how it integrates with PC scheduled recording software, if it does at all.  I think it works more like a VCR; it records whatever channel you're currently watching.  You might be able to also buy a tv tuner card so you can watch another channel while it records, though.  Of course, you'll need a cable box with component outputs, and it's possible - although unlikely - that your component outputs are downsampled to 480.

The alternative/standard way is to use a video tuner/capture card.  However, you can't capture decrypted hi-def using a capture card, as the coaxial/hdmi outputs from your cable box will be downsampled to 480.  You can capture hi-def from the coaxial coming into your house, but then you can't capture your premium channels. You can use something like MediaPortal, SageTV, etc to handle program recording a la Tivo.   If you're planning on using a windows-based setup, I think you'll want to go with something like this (not sure if there are linux mythtv drivers): http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hvr1600.html
This lets you take input from both sources, so you can capture your premium at 480 and basic cable in hi-def. 

Bumping a 7 year old thread because why not.

I want an HTPC. Alienware Alphas start at $500 now. Not bad. I'm not buying a Mac Mini. Gimme "cheaper than Alienware" alternatives.

You trying to game on this thing or just do media?

I just use an old gaming rig. I7 920, 12Gb memory, gtx 670. It gets the job done.

I just bought one of those for my youngest daughter for Christmas (6 freaking years old and I'm giving her an Alienware, I am either a terrible parent or the Best Dad Ever), there really isn't anything significantly cheaper for the same performance/specs level.  Even home-brewing only saves you less than $100 unless you're not going to put Windows on it.

Basically, this is one case where Alienware isn't marked up 25-50% over what the hardware really rates.

--Dave

Maybe a random game here and there. 95% media.

Are you talking about the i3 one?

There are a crapton of "USFF" (Ultra SFF) PCs now. Intel even has their own fancy moniker for them -- Next Unit of Computing or NUC. If you just need an ultra small HTPC there are plenty of ones that are cheaper than the Alienware Alpha starting with something like a $250 Lenovo Q190. However you won't be able to get anything below the price of Alienware Alpha that isn't running on Integrated Intel Graphics. As Mahrin said above the Alpha is actually a really good value. It has a very good CPU at that price range* and a 860M/750 Ti GPU equivalent. You can get an ultra small HTPC with comparable specs to the Alpha minus the dedicated GPU for about a $100 less like an ASUS VivoPC but again you would be gaming on Integrated Intel Graphics.

The Lenovo and ASUS models mentioned above are "complete" with memory, drive and Windows OS. There are also a bunch of barebones systems like the Intel NUCs and Gigabyte BRIX but those require some assembly. And again you won't be able to build off of a barebones something cheaper than an Alpha if you want the GPU power of an Alpha.

* It does use more power than your typical USFF CPU, though.

I can get the higher end Lenovo Q190 for the price of the low-end one through the wife's EPP, but god, a Celeron. Can that shit even process 1080p video?

Basically my options are the Alpha or the Alpha. Every Alpha seems to have the exact same graphics card, just losing processing power and RAM at each level. So, I guess I could play like, Hex and Diablo 3 and not much else. I suppose that's not the worst for the price.

I'm doing this simply because I can leech my inlaws full Dish account off Dish Anywhere on a PC.

I suppose I should change the name of this thread to "Anyone have a Dell Coupon?"

If that's what you're doing, have you tried tab casting with a Chromecast? I do that with Comcast and their streaming On Demand stuff. Oddly BBC America stuff stutters, but everything else is decent.

Yes it can.

No. And I won't. Fuck Chromecast.

Edit: Actually, I take that back - slightly. Are there any decent Chromeboxes that run Chrome well and allow plugins like SlingAnywhere and shit. I can dump gaming if I can get full browser capability.

Yes, the bottom end model.  I got it on a brief sale for $450, it's good enough to run WoW at 720p with decent amounts of bells and whistles, which was the primary motivation for getting it.  It will also do just about anything you would want with video playback, and getting it to standard Win 8.1 rather than the "console mode" UI is just selecting that option in the initial setup (you can launch the console mode any time you want).  Built in networking and Bluetooth, I added a white Logitech K400 mini keyboard and touchpad (it comes with a 360 controller and nothing else).

Completely impossible to upgrade outside of USB, of course, but adequate for an HTPC and low-end gaming.

--Dave

EDIT: As Trippy laid out, it comes down to the graphics chipset, if you want anything other than Intel integrated graphics you're looking at $450-500, if you're never going to run real games on it (just video and maybe browser games) you can go with the NUC/Chromebox boxes and get it down to $250 (if all you want is video playback and minimal browsing capability, you can get under $100 with the various "stick" type units).  But if you want it to run Dish Anywhere, you have to be running Windows, and that adds another $100 to the NUC ($350-400).

--Dave

It's not hard to upgrade the internal drive and RAM on an Alpha. Easier than doing it on a desktop PC, even (unless your case has hot swap drive mounts).

I really don't care about upgrading this. I care about cost. I look at shit like this as disposable. If the Mac Mini didn't cost $400 more than it should (the mid-range model, that is), I'd just get that.

I hadn't opened it up, but I had read that the memory was soldered into the board.  Does it use laptop memory? 2.5" HDD?

--Dave

Uses laptop memory and 2.5" drive:

Drive upgrade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzwiElEfn1k

RAM upgrade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRObVP_diL4

Here's a review from TechSpot that pretty much hits all the high and low points, echoes what we've been saying:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=84503534&v=LoH4ba4I8UY&x-yt-ts=1421914688 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=84503534&v=LoH4ba4I8UY&x-yt-ts=1421914688)

Basically, unless you *really* want more CPU, buy the low end model, you can upgrade the HDD and RAM for a lot less than it costs for the upgraded versions.  If you really want to seriously game on it then the upgraded CPU's may be worth the scratch, as newer games will get CPU bound on the i3.  For what you described as your needs (video, streaming, browsing, and light gaming) the low-end model is one of the best deals out there.

--Dave

If you really don't care about gaming - and you have another PC acting as a media server - then you want an Intel NUC.

Fairly inexpensive, tiny, silent, low power, built-in IR with power on/off capability, and can do any 1080p vids you throw at it (including 3D I believe).

Buy the kit w/ ram + a SSD, throw OpenELEC on it or Windows + XBMC and you're good.

http://www.amazon.com/Intel-D34010WYK-DisplayPort-i3-4010U-Consumer/dp/B00F3F381A

The low end Alpha is already $50 off. It might be hard to find a coupon that'll work with that but you can try this one I got off a Twitch channel which is a 10% off Alienware coupon:

1MD90WDWW$93B$

Look into Intel's NUC line.  They are cheap, small, and quiet.  There are a handful of models that have different cpu options.  Here is one for $260 that looks like its most of what you need:
http://www.amazon.com/Intel-D34010WYK-DisplayPort-i3-4010U-Consumer/dp/B00F3F381A/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1422318090&sr=8-4&keywords=intel+nuc&pebp=1422318192260&peasin=B00F3F381A

Steam streaming works like a champ so even a system like this without a GPU should be able to play the games on your tv almost as good as your gaming pc.

Why does that cost $17 more if you get it *without* a power cord O.o

So, the Alienware Alpha has the mobile version of an NVidia in it. The iBuyPower SBX has an AMD Radeon R7 250X 1GB GDDR5, which I'm pretty sure is full size. Now i'm just waffling between steamboxes.

The Alpha has a modified mobile 860M which is very similar to the desktop GTX 750 Ti. The R7 250X is a desktop part but it's a rebadged 7770 rather than some fancy new tech. The 750 Ti is faster than the 260X which is faster than the 250X so I would expect the Alpha's 860M to handily best the 250X too. Also the Alpha has 2 GB VRAM while the SBX only has 1 GB.

Yeah, I've tried to find the exact reported name of the chipset for the Alpha, but I don't have it here with me at school (it's back with my daughter) and no online source is telling me, so I can't find the exact performance stats as benchmarked.  But it should be roughly 60-80% higher for the Alpha than the Radeon R7 250X (plus having twice the RAM, which means more detailed texture options).

--Dave

EDIT: Mobile no longer automatically means weak.  High end mobile chipsets are now challenging all but the most expensive desktop cards and SLI rigs (some laptops even have them in SLI configurations).

More RAM also means more/better AA options.

Seriously try out the in-home streaming stuff built into Steam before you decide if you need the extra oomphf from an Nvidia card.  I'm super happy using it with my HTPC.