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Title: So how am I doing? Post by: WindupAtheist on January 29, 2008, 07:07:15 AM My paladin. (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cenarion+Circle&n=Grimthorpe)
Assorted notes: * No twinkage here. This is my main, so all my gear is drops, quest rewards, or stuff I bought off the AH with money I made on this character. What sort of stuff do I want to equip as a ret paladin? * If I go all-out for damage I become a super mana whore and have to drink after every one or two fights. Am I doing something wrong, or is that just the way this sort of thing plays when you're mostly focusing on str/stam? * I don't do crafting because it's boring. I might get around to grinding up mining/skinning at some point just to auction the materials, but right now I'm having too much fun killing shit and leveling up. I don't hurt for cash much anyway, since cloth sells for piles of money. * On a related note, I quit advancing my first aid as soon as I hit the mageweave level and discovered that it sells for like 4 gold per stack. I have healing spells and food, bandages are just a luxury to save a little mana between fights, so fuck em. I'll finish first aid later. Right now cloth is paying my way. Anyway, yeah, I've never leveled a pally past 39 before, so let me know if I'm doing something grossly wrong. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Hutch on January 29, 2008, 07:24:35 AM Get Mining. The actual value will depend on your server and faction, of course, but Mining is a great way to make money off the AH.
Leatherworking and Herbalism are also money makers, but not as consistently at the lower levels. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Nebu on January 29, 2008, 07:28:20 AM Leatherworking and Herbalism are also money makers, but not as consistently at the lower levels. How do you recommend making money with leatherworking? Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Righ on January 29, 2008, 07:39:31 AM High end armor patches used by twinks. That's it. I'm leatherworking for the 375 skill epic leatherworker-only armor pieces. I imagine that once I've crafted them, I will sell all the stuff that I skin, because its more profitable than anything other than the armor patches and sells faster.
Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Hutch on January 29, 2008, 07:54:34 AM Leatherworking and Herbalism are also money makers, but not as consistently at the lower levels. How do you recommend making money with leatherworking? DId I say Leatherworking? I meant Skinning. Doh. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Dren on January 29, 2008, 08:36:36 AM I didn't even look at your gear because at that level it doesn't matter to much. If you said you were Twinking then I'd be looking at it differently. I'm sure you're fine on equipment.
As for going through mana fast as Ret, yes, that is the nature of the beast. If you go for items that will give you more Int or MP5, you'll just be taking away from your crits and burst damage capabilities. You have to choose and just go that way. You can always slow down and use your powers to keep mana regen up, but sometimes it is just faster to gather big groups, blow your wad and then drink. Actually, most of the time that is the better route. Paladins aren't very efficient one on one with mobs. You should always try to go up against groups. Crafting: If you don't like it, don't do it. I'd still try to mine and either take skinning or enchanting. Do enchanting only to be able to break down all magic items you get to sell the enchating mats. You have to skill up, but only do enough to be able to keep disenchanting the higher items you get. That stuff sells like hotcakes on the AH. The ore you get sells great too. Herbalism is good too, but don't match with mining. You can only have one search type up on you minimap at a time and that can be a problem as you quest around. First Aid: My pally has 0 skill. I completely regret this now. Eventually, I'll go back and raise it up to max, but that is a long haul now. I'd take the time now to get caught back up because you'll find yourself in groups, pvp, etc. where an emergency quick heal is needed without mana. This is especially true if you plan to stay critadin, tankadin, or shockadin specc'ed. My paly is a healadin so this doesn't come up too often, but it is often enough that I regret it. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Nebu on January 29, 2008, 08:39:01 AM First Aid: My pally has 0 skill. I completely regret this now. Eventually, I'll go back and raise it up to max, but that is a long haul now. I'd take the time now to get caught back up because you'll find yourself in groups, pvp, etc. where an emergency quick heal is needed without mana. This is especially true if you plan to stay critadin, tankadin, or shockadin specc'ed. My paly is a healadin so this doesn't come up too often, but it is often enough that I regret it. I like having first aid, even on my shaman. Against humanoid mobs it's a great way to decrease downtime. It's also a nice cash source turning cloth into bandages and selling them directly rather than playing the AH game (which I lack the patience for). I've also found it valuable coupled with some type of CC to grab a quick heal when power is a real issue. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Jayce on January 29, 2008, 09:29:08 AM /agree with everyone on First Aid. It's one of those professions that are difficult to raise if you outlevel your cloth supply. You have to either buy it off the AH or go back to the zones it drops from and grind up some gray mobs if you later regret the choice.
In terms of primary professions, I'd recommend skinning and mining. Mining is a little distraction from the main event, but it's not bad, will level quickly, and sells for good money even if you underprice it. It's also a profession you can pick up any time, because getting a mount makes it quicker to level. Skinning is nice just because you leave a lot of money lying on the ground if you aren't skinning your skinnable kills. It also has the virtue of not taking you out of your intended way like herbs and mining. However, it's hard to go back and pick up, so this is probably a moot point. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Mazakiel on January 29, 2008, 09:54:20 AM I'm currently levelling a shaman alt, and have mining/skinning. The skins I'm saving for once I'm ready to take up leatherworking at 70, when I'll drop mining, but it can be decent money selling the skins were I wanting to. And mining, even though it can take you out of your way a bit, can make excellent money. Just mining everything I come across while questing has helped to get me all the money I'll need for my mount at 40, without having to farm or anything at all.
And while the cloth is good money, first aid is really a priceless skill. In my mind, so is cooking once you hit the BC content, so I save every piece of cookable loot there is to skill up with as well. Even if you don't end up eating it yourself, the late game foods can sell to people wanting them for raids and such. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: WindupAtheist on January 29, 2008, 10:30:06 AM So I've got 20 mageweave. I can use it to make 10 heavy mageweave bandages, each of which restore about 1k health.
Or I can sell it on the AH, use the money to buy 20 pieces of vendor food that restore 2k health each, and still have a couple of gold left over. There may come a time when I decide I need to raise my first aid skill, but it hasn't come yet. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Jayce on January 29, 2008, 11:25:16 AM First aid's quicker and can be used in combat.
I'd recommend at least banking enough cloth to skill up should you decide to do so. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Nebu on January 29, 2008, 11:45:14 AM First aid's quicker and can be used in combat. Key point right there. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Dren on January 29, 2008, 11:48:36 AM First aid's quicker and can be used in combat. I'd recommend at least banking enough cloth to skill up should you decide to do so. Yeah, the key point is that bandaging is done *IN COMBAT*. Food is for rest times. Bandages are for those emergency, need it now occasions. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Dren on January 29, 2008, 11:54:28 AM And while the cloth is good money, first aid is really a priceless skill. In my mind, so is cooking once you hit the BC content, so I save every piece of cookable loot there is to skill up with as well. Even if you don't end up eating it yourself, the late game foods can sell to people wanting them for raids and such. Cooking is another one I ignored for a very long time. Then I got sick of not having the added benefits in BC. Food in BC is so much more important than pre-BC, I went all the way back with one of my alts and max'ed it out. I did fishing too because some of the best recipes use hard to find fish. Make it for yourself, alts, or just sell it. All my alts send that one character any food materials to make, easy as that. It took a few weeks of very casual playtime to get up to speed, but it was well worth it. Fishing is a nice pasttime to do while waiting for friends, instance grouping, doing things IRL (laundry, in between sets of exercising, etc.) Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Mazakiel on January 29, 2008, 12:27:48 PM Fishing's one I'll start to work on soon, just so I can have it built up by the time I'm hitting BC content. Easy food is good food. Plus, I have way too much fun with giant growth potions, and so I'll need lots of fish for that, and deviate fish tend to be overpriced. I just wish, on a more general level, that they'd changed the old world food buffs to 30 minute timers like the BC food buffs are.
Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Azaroth on January 29, 2008, 12:47:58 PM My paladin. (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cenarion+Circle&n=Grimthorpe) Assorted notes: * No twinkage here. This is my main, so all my gear is drops, quest rewards, or stuff I bought off the AH with money I made on this character. What sort of stuff do I want to equip as a ret paladin? Don't worry too much about gear until you start higher instances. You'll replace it too fast anyway, unless you have several thousand on your main and it's no big deal. When you get up around Zul'Farrak and higher, it sometimes takes someone in the group to be halfway intelligent and geared decently to drag four other shitcocks through the instance. On Ret Pallies: Reroll. Blizzard A) Hates Pallies B) Hates Ret Pallies More. As you level, you'll find that nobody will take you to instances because you provide no crowd control and less in the way of DPS than the actual DPS classes. Pallies are good healers. However, they are locked down far too easily in arenas. Good BG healers, though, I find. Put a shield on and spec Holy/Prot. Pallies are good tanks. It's easymode tanking, which is good for a first character. It's also good because a Prot specced pally can AoE grind for the win (just find a good spot with lots of melee only mobs). However, as a Prot Pally, you CANNOT PvP. At all. Ever. Worst PvP spec in the game. Period. Gear for a Ret Pally: Strength. Crit. AP. Stamina. Int. In that order, IMHO. Str = 2 AP. So if there are two items and one has 10 STR, the other has 20 AP, the AP is the same. Except buffs like Kings will increase your STR but not your AP by a certain percent (Kings being 10%). So STR is always superior to AP all things being otherwise equal. Ret Paladins at one point were actual Ret Paladins, with 40% of spell damage being applied to Crusader Strike. Which meant that you could stack Spell Damage and effectively be an offensive melee/healer hybrid, because you'd actually have a little power behind your heals. However, at this point, CS is changed to 110% melee damage making Ret Pallies into MS Warriors without MS (MS being the entire point of being a PvP warrior). However, disregard all of of this and have fun playing your Pally. Just think back to it when you decide to reroll in frustration. Quote * If I go all-out for damage I become a super mana whore and have to drink after every one or two fights. Am I doing something wrong, or is that just the way this sort of thing plays when you're mostly focusing on str/stam? Again, Paladins are fundamentally a flawed class by design. Quote * I don't do crafting because it's boring. I might get around to grinding up mining/skinning at some point just to auction the materials, but right now I'm having too much fun killing shit and leveling up. I don't hurt for cash much anyway, since cloth sells for piles of money. You'll hurt for cash at later levels. Professions like Enchanting/Blacksmithing/Etc will make you hurt for cash more (I think I just spent 3k gold on Blacksmithing for my Warrior). Pick up easy stuff like, yes, mining and skinning and the like. Gathering professions. Although I wouldn't recommend mining. Enough Enchanting to be able to D/E BoP items can be very profitable. Quote * On a related note, I quit advancing my first aid as soon as I hit the mageweave level and discovered that it sells for like 4 gold per stack. I have healing spells and food, bandages are just a luxury to save a little mana between fights, so fuck em. I'll finish first aid later. Right now cloth is paying my way. Fair enough, but bandages will save your ass a million times as a Pally (especially in PvP). Bubble/Bandage = mana free heal. Quote Anyway, yeah, I've never leveled a pally past 39 before, so let me know if I'm doing something grossly wrong. Leveling a Pally. Although there's no problem in it if you'll never be insterested in PvP and only want to tank, or only want to heal in instances. Beyond that I'd personally recommend another class. But ignore me because I'm one of those guys who is no fun at all and pays too much attention to what happens when you hit the endgame. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Azaroth on January 29, 2008, 12:49:12 PM My paladin. (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cenarion+Circle&n=Grimthorpe) Assorted notes: * No twinkage here. This is my main, so all my gear is drops, quest rewards, or stuff I bought off the AH with money I made on this character. What sort of stuff do I want to equip as a ret paladin? Don't worry too much about gear until you start higher instances. You'll replace it too fast anyway, unless you have several thousand on your main and it's no big deal. When you get up around Zul'Farrak and higher, it sometimes takes someone in the group to be halfway intelligent and geared decently to drag four other shitcocks through the instance. On Ret Pallies: Reroll. Blizzard A) Hates Pallies B) Hates Ret Pallies More. As you level, you'll find that nobody will take you to instances because you provide no crowd control and less in the way of DPS than the actual DPS classes. Edit: There are also 6 bajillion Ret Pallies. Pallies are good healers. However, they are locked down far too easily in arenas. Good BG healers, though, I find. Put a shield on and spec Holy/Prot. Pallies are good tanks. It's easymode tanking, which is good for a first character. It's also good because a Prot specced pally can AoE grind for the win (just find a good spot with lots of melee only mobs). However, as a Prot Pally, you CANNOT PvP. At all. Ever. Worst PvP spec in the game. Period. Gear for a Ret Pally: Strength. Crit. AP. Stamina. Int. In that order, IMHO. Str = 2 AP. So if there are two items and one has 10 STR, the other has 20 AP, the AP is the same. Except buffs like Kings will increase your STR but not your AP by a certain percent (Kings being 10%). So STR is always superior to AP all things being otherwise equal. Ret Paladins at one point were actual Ret Paladins, with 40% of spell damage being applied to Crusader Strike. Which meant that you could stack Spell Damage and effectively be an offensive melee/healer hybrid, because you'd actually have a little power behind your heals. However, at this point, CS is changed to 110% melee damage making Ret Pallies into MS Warriors without MS (MS being the entire point of being a PvP warrior). However, disregard all of of this and have fun playing your Pally. Just think back to it when you decide to reroll in frustration. Quote * If I go all-out for damage I become a super mana whore and have to drink after every one or two fights. Am I doing something wrong, or is that just the way this sort of thing plays when you're mostly focusing on str/stam? Again, Paladins are fundamentally a flawed class by design. Quote * I don't do crafting because it's boring. I might get around to grinding up mining/skinning at some point just to auction the materials, but right now I'm having too much fun killing shit and leveling up. I don't hurt for cash much anyway, since cloth sells for piles of money. You'll hurt for cash at later levels. Professions like Enchanting/Blacksmithing/Etc will make you hurt for cash more (I think I just spent 3k gold on Blacksmithing for my Warrior). Pick up easy stuff like, yes, mining and skinning and the like. Gathering professions. Although I wouldn't recommend mining. Enough Enchanting to be able to D/E BoP items can be very profitable. Quote * On a related note, I quit advancing my first aid as soon as I hit the mageweave level and discovered that it sells for like 4 gold per stack. I have healing spells and food, bandages are just a luxury to save a little mana between fights, so fuck em. I'll finish first aid later. Right now cloth is paying my way. Fair enough, but bandages will save your ass a million times as a Pally (especially in PvP). Bubble/Bandage = mana free heal. Quote Anyway, yeah, I've never leveled a pally past 39 before, so let me know if I'm doing something grossly wrong. Leveling a Pally. Although there's no problem in it if you'll never be insterested in PvP and only want to tank, or only want to heal in instances. Beyond that I'd personally recommend another class. But ignore me because I'm one of those guys who is no fun at all and pays too much attention to what happens when you hit the endgame. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Azaroth on January 29, 2008, 12:51:13 PM I just managed to post 400 times while trying to edit something and talking on the phone.
Ignore all of my advice. My edit is that I said Ret Paladins could previously "effectively" be offensive melee combat/healer hybrids. I didn't mean they could do this EFFECTIVELY. But in theory. In reality they could only do it shittily and needed buffs. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Fordel on January 29, 2008, 01:41:27 PM The largest issue with Ret paladins these days is no viable dungeon CC and their gear requirements change every other patch. To get a good idea of how retarded Ret paladin gear is, look at the various Ret Paladin Arena sets. The stat focus just changed again with the last patch. In THEORY, you can just use warrior DPS plate now... but who knows come 2.4!
The single largest issue Ret paladins had before was threat. They generated WAY to much to ever DPS successfully. That has been remedied with Fanaticism at the bottom of the ret tree, but even with it, learn to embrace Salvation in groups and even then, learn to watch your Threat meter like a hawk and be ready to stall dps as required. The nature of Ret Paladin DPS is by design, random. You can go a entire fight without a single SoCommand proc, or have it chain proc 5 times in a row. Paladins in general are a lesson in how the RNG works. Can be extremely frustrating. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: MrHat on January 29, 2008, 01:58:54 PM Is no dungeon CC a big deal?
Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Azaroth on January 29, 2008, 02:31:42 PM Yes.
You'll never see the inside of a Heroic (or not often, at least..) and be very happy if you find a raiding guild. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Ralence on January 29, 2008, 02:39:17 PM I can completely agree with what Azaroth and Fordel are saying. I have a 70 paladin, and I rerolled druid last week. The only fortunate part is, my pally has been prot since level 10, and he's lots of fun in PvE. As a fair comparison, a level 70 rogue, that I actually hit 70 the night before he did, is now in full S1 gear, with 2 pieces of S3, while running kara/heroics on a daily basis, and has been for almost 3 weeks now.
I play as much as him, and I'm excited that I "think" my gear is almost good enough to try to tank my first heroic this week, and my only "epic" item is my s1 gavel. I tried to respec holy, having no HoT's, and no multiple target heals crushed that idea, unless I want to be a raid healer and push "Flash of Light" once per second while I watch law and order on the other screen. I even tried Ret, but then realized that spell damage is a wasted stat on the S1 gear, and +crit is mitigated by resilience, which is EXTREMELY prominent now in all 70 BG's because of S1 gear availability, and woops, I'm a shitty warrior that can't kill much. In arena, my experience is that everyone just ignores the paladin while they kill off the rest of the group, no CC means you're not really a threat to anyone, so they focusfire the healer, then the dps, and then its you standing there with no mana while the hunter/mage/warlock kites you around and makes you look like a moron. In a game this gear dependant, having a class that isn't even itemized for properly just doesn't work at all. I could probably stay ret and lose a few hundred arena matches to get S3 gear just to be able to compete, but I'm pretty sure just levelling a druid to 70 will be faster, and probably a more enjoyable experience, at least to me. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Nebu on January 29, 2008, 02:45:48 PM So what classes do you see as being completely worthless in the endgame if I'm interested in doing larger scale pvp (not arenas) and 5 man instances? Since druids can tank, heal, and do dps effectively it seems like they render many other classes as worthless. I just leveled a shaman to 63 and am starting to believe that I may not have any role than a druid or priest could do better.
Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Fordel on January 29, 2008, 03:25:31 PM Shamans are Gravy, you won't have any issues with roles as a shaman. Enhancement will be weak in large scale PvP, but most Melee dependent classes are.
But PVE, Shamans are always in demand, be it from 5 mans all the way up to 25 man raids, you can never have to many competent shamans. A Resto Shaman is probably the best 5 man healer in game as things stand these days. The only weakness is the lack of a heal HoT/Instant on a short timer. Otherwise EarthShield is :heart:, ChainHeal is Hax and everyone loves totems. The Totems are the constant love/hate thing for shamans. They are annoying to manage at times, but bring a lot of flexibility and desirability to the class. Things like water shield and earthshock just nice little bonuses. A Enhancement shaman is fantastic melee dps, it's big weak point though is no dungeon CC, but it gets a pass on that in groups 9.5 times out of 10 thanks again to totems (they really are that significant) and adding that extra wipe recovery person. The other issue, is shared with ret paladins in regards to threat. Windfury is random and streaky, so its really easy to push up and over your tanks threat generation and gib yourself. Elemental shamans are fantastic ranged dps. Again no dungeon CC, but totems make up for it. They can act as a pinch healer, keep up steady DPS, are now relatively mana efficient. Their big issue is the lack of a pushback talent. So any situation where a elemental shaman is taking steady 'push' damage, their cast time will go up dramatically. They have threat issues, but not as pronounced as the enhancement shamans and they generally can be 'saved' due to the distance granted from being ranged. In Large scale PvP, both Resto and Elemental benefit greatly from the security of the zerg to hide in. Where Enhancement gets to spend its time stuck in 'no mans land' for the most part, and get picked apart by everyone who isn't. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Righ on January 29, 2008, 03:45:57 PM Enhancement shaman is pretty much like ret pally - you can certainly do good DPS, but you have no CC and you're not an ideal DPS character - enhancement shaman are the ones that pull aggro off tanks most often - because they are in melee range for full threat and have nice big damage spikes, and it sucks when your DPS dies. :)
Elemental shaman are capable of serious DPS too but tend not to pull aggro due to the ranged threat reduction and typically have enough spell gear to be very handy backup healers. With the right gear (substantial mana/5sec), restoration shaman are capable of being the only healer in dungeons and primary healer in light (10 man) raids - and they can still do decent damage with lightning when they need to. Restoration and holy spec'd druids and priests may be more efficient healers, but they're less useful outside the groups than restoration shaman are (and the druid cool down on rezzing pretty much mandates having a shaman, paladin or priest along in any case). With a healing oriented shield and mail armor, the tank tends to have a little longer to deal with healing aggro before a bad pull goes south than with a priest or even a tree druid. Shaman are great group healers and casters benefit strongly from being grouped with the restoration shaman. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Morfiend on January 29, 2008, 03:53:01 PM Enhancement shaman is pretty much like ret pally Except that enh shammy provide a VERY nice buff for raiding. Ret pallys are not as looked down on as much as they used to be, and are now considered "acceptable" for raiding. For heroics, not so much. You will always have mana problems as Ret. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Morfiend on January 29, 2008, 03:55:41 PM After looking at your talents. There is one MAJOR one that can help. Sanctified Judgment. This is your best mana saving talent. Also. Take the points out of the Interrupt resist talent. 5 Points in Holy only. Also, get Sanctity Aura, and Improved.
As a ret pally, you will be hard pressed to DPS, so you need to maximize your talents to get every little piece of DPS you can. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Dren on January 30, 2008, 05:19:02 AM Pallies do have some CC and I use it all the time at least for PvP. We have our hammer of justice, but we also have Seal of Justice. Yes, it takes away a lot of dps, but for that extra bit of stunning and spell interuption, it has really helped me out.
I use it in PvE sometimes too. It is only good for a short time since you can't stun more than X amount of times within Y time (I don't know the specifics,) but once you see them being immune, I switch to a different Seal for awhile. My hammer is down to just 45 second cooldown with talents so I can cycle through that quite often. When matched with seal of justice, I'm stunning quite often. All I know is, it really pisses people off. My job as healadin is healing with moderate CC and the occasional burst damage finishing blow. I landed on Healadin after trying all other combinations. Tanking: Warriors and Feral Druids galore doing it already. I just didn't fit into groups as often. DPS: I did this for a very long time and always felt like I was holding the group back because a dps warrior or rogue or feral druid could do the job a hell of a lot better. Healadin: Accepted everywhere and loved by all. (Except when Shackle Undead is needed.) As for the comment on Flash of Light being easy enough to do while watching TV, I believe you are wrong. I have a level 70 priest too. Healing with a priest is much more hands off. Healadin is more about playing poke the buttons, but as I've said I serve other roles too. I'm also much more durable (typically the last to die in a group instead of the first.) I also have a much bigger mana pool to pull from and abilities to keep my mana flowing in too. When it comes to PvP, once people figure out that they are surviving longer because I'm spamming flash of light over everyone within range, I become quite popular. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: WindupAtheist on January 30, 2008, 05:41:09 AM I'm sorry I asked. I'm just gonna go back to having fun.
Also, spiritual focus for the win. Maybe when you're running Heroic Flammajamma at level 70 you don't need it, but I solo a lot, and without it I may as well not have healing spells at all. That said, I do plan to get sanctity aura and some other stuff, but right now I'm rushing for crusader strike. EDIT: Bandages would have to make the difference between life and death a lot more often than they do for me to give up all the cloth money. A lot more. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Dren on January 30, 2008, 05:44:37 AM I'm sorry I asked. I'm just gonna go back to having fun. Also, spiritual focus for the win. Maybe when you're running Heroic Flammajamma at level 70 you don't need it, but I solo a lot, and without it I may as well not have healing spells at all. That said, I do plan to get sanctity aura and some other stuff, but right now I'm rushing for crusader strike. Naw, all my advice pertains to lvl 70 only really. I always solo/small group leveled with a Ret build. It IS fun. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Arrrgh on January 30, 2008, 05:59:01 AM So what classes do you see as being completely worthless in the endgame if I'm interested in doing larger scale pvp (not arenas) and 5 man instances? Since druids can tank, heal, and do dps effectively it seems like they render many other classes as worthless. I just leveled a shaman to 63 and am starting to believe that I may not have any role than a druid or priest could do better. A druid can't tank/heal/DPS with the same build or the same gear. Unless you want to constantly respec and keep multiple sets of gear don't expect to do all three. Also a tank (bear or otherwise) is a must have for a 5 man and mostly useless in PvP. A better question is what character can do both large scale pvp and 5 mans in the same gear with the same spec. A PvP spec/geared shaman can heal in both easily. An elemental shaman also works in both, but I suspect the shaman who run around dual wielding would have issues in PVE since some instances just aren't melee friendly. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Arrrgh on January 30, 2008, 06:04:27 AM EDIT: Bandages would have to make the difference between life and death a lot more often than they do for me to give up all the cloth money. A lot more. It's much easier to level up first aid as you level up. You'll need it eventually and if you wait you'll either have to go back and farm up all the cloth you need or pay insane AH prices for the cloth. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Jayce on January 30, 2008, 07:03:16 AM It's much easier to level up first aid as you level up. You'll need it eventually and if you wait you'll either have to go back and farm up all the cloth you need or pay insane AH prices for the cloth. Looks like it's not gonna happen, we should quit pestering him about it. It's probably moot anyway, because the level 70 game doesn't seem like something that would appeal to WUA. My money is that he either quits or rerolls if he makes it that far. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: WindupAtheist on January 30, 2008, 07:36:29 AM Grinding a bunch of grey mobs for cloth to raise first aid will give me something to do for a couple days when I'm either at the cap or just plain tired of leveling. Same with running around newb zones mining copper or whatever. I tend to get crabby when all there is to do is advance, and I'm not given some semi-productive way to goof off and twiddle my thumbs anyway.
And it's not like I'm doing PVP. I've had to bubble-and-bandage exactly once in PVE so far, ten levels ago when that big elite demon in Desolace walked up on me as I was drinking and not paying attention. Don't get me wrong, it'll be nice to run up my first aid eventually, but the money is just too good right now. Also, I just got done messing with the talent calculator and came up with this (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?5050000000000000000000000000000000000000005023035132033125331051). If I ever decide to get supar serial about endgame crap, I'll probably spec prot. But not holy, because healing sounds boring as fuck. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Nebu on January 30, 2008, 08:52:53 AM A druid can't tank/heal/DPS with the same build or the same gear. Unless you want to constantly respec and keep multiple sets of gear don't expect to do all three. All 3 are faster than leveling another toon to 70. That was my point. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Ralence on January 30, 2008, 09:19:04 AM As for the comment on Flash of Light being easy enough to do while watching TV, I believe you are wrong. I have a level 70 priest too. Healing with a priest is much more hands off. Healadin is more about playing poke the buttons, but as I've said I serve other roles too. I'm also much more durable (typically the last to die in a group instead of the first.) I also have a much bigger mana pool to pull from and abilities to keep my mana flowing in too. I was specifically talking about healing in raids for a holy paladin, where I was always designated as a "MT healer", and had one target to be responsible for, and therefore, one button to mash. I also found that healing in 5-mans, especially heroics, was much more difficult because of the lack of HoTs/Group heals as compared to a resto druid or priest. I'm sure an overgeared group can handle H SH just fine with a healadin, but as a tank, I'm way more comfortable with a priest/druid in the group. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Morfiend on January 30, 2008, 09:19:38 AM A druid can't tank/heal/DPS with the same build or the same gear. Unless you want to constantly respec and keep multiple sets of gear don't expect to do all three. All 3 are faster than leveling another toon to 70. That was my point. They can Tank and DPS with the same spec though. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Morfiend on January 30, 2008, 09:20:49 AM I'm sorry I asked. I'm just gonna go back to having fun. Get Sanctified Judgment. It will make a huge difference in your mana consumption. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Righ on January 30, 2008, 09:38:24 AM Also a tank (bear or otherwise) is a must have for a 5 man and mostly useless in PvP. How is feral druid mostly useless in PvP? I'll grant you that its not the ideal arena FOTM, but that's not what PvP is to everybody. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Dren on January 30, 2008, 09:49:06 AM Also a tank (bear or otherwise) is a must have for a 5 man and mostly useless in PvP. How is feral druid mostly useless in PvP? I'll grant you that its not the ideal arena FOTM, but that's not what PvP is to everybody. Yeah, they are very nice in BG's. They may not be optimum for arena's, but they are far far from useless....really in any situation. They go beyond 5-man's too. Our best feral druid in the guild tanks for us in Karazhan on occasions. Tank gear and DPS gear. It is ALWAYS nice to have that kind of flexibility. He will also step in as a 1/2 healer when required too. Battle res for the win. And the cherry is that power that gives you a huge mana regen boost (can't remember the name...tranquility is it?) That has saved our asses soooo many times. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Arrrgh on January 30, 2008, 09:53:57 AM Also a tank (bear or otherwise) is a must have for a 5 man and mostly useless in PvP. How is feral druid mostly useless in PvP? I'll grant you that its not the ideal arena FOTM, but that's not what PvP is to everybody. I meant a feral druid geared/gemmed for PVE tanking. That's not the same as a feral druid geared/gemmed for PvP DPS. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Righ on January 30, 2008, 11:08:33 AM I still don't understand. Why wouldn't any feral druid work on gear for both tanking and DPS? Even without sacrificing your tanking by spending DKP on kitty raid drops or spending honor on kitty rewards, you can put together an impressive DPS set while primarily being a party's tank:
http://www.gurgleblaster.net/emmerald/Cat_Sustained_DPS/Head.html Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Dren on January 30, 2008, 11:26:55 AM Yeah, it is just spending more time getting the drops/badges/rep/etc. We have a feral druid in the guild that goes only after DPS gear, but he's really not doing himself any favors. Yes, that is the style of play you prefer, but when you get to a boss that really requires one less tank and one more dps, adapt or log for the night. Those are your choices.
I have a feral druid to 65 right now and love it. The flexibility is very attractive and fun. I can't imagine limiting myself like that really. I mean, you're playing probably the best hybrid class in the game, why not use that to your advantage? Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Morfiend on January 30, 2008, 11:37:26 AM My guild uses 2 Ferals for OT. They are both very consistant and great players, so they make the perfect raiding off tanks. If the fight calls for tanks, they tank, if it doesnt they DPS. Win win situation.
Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Xerapis on January 30, 2008, 02:38:59 PM I'm looking at going with this (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunter/talents.html?5020120152521225310510550201000000000000000300000000000000000000) for my final hunter talents.
I love Beast Mastery, and I never pass up Hawk Eye. Any suggestions in polishing this build for endgame? Of course, I'm still a long ways off. These days I'm focusing on raising up my fishing/cooking/first aid/mining/engineering. I'm a professions whore. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Hutch on January 30, 2008, 08:53:59 PM I'm looking at going with this (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunter/talents.html?5020120152521225310510550201000000000000000300000000000000000000) for my final hunter talents. I love Beast Mastery, and I never pass up Hawk Eye. Any suggestions in polishing this build for endgame? Of course, I'm still a long ways off. These days I'm focusing on raising up my fishing/cooking/first aid/mining/engineering. I'm a professions whore. I don't think you'll need Go for the Throat if you have Bestial Discipline. Not sure where else you should put those points, though. Efficiency, maybe. This is a PvE/instance/raid character, yes? If you're going to pvp, putting points into Endurance Training won't hurt. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: DraconianOne on January 31, 2008, 03:38:47 AM Grinding a bunch of grey mobs for cloth to raise first aid will give me something to do for a couple days when I'm either at the cap or just plain tired of leveling. Same with running around newb zones mining copper or whatever. At high levels, soloing instances like SFK or WC will take not very long and earn you stacks of cloth in the process. I wouldn't worry about it. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: WindupAtheist on January 31, 2008, 05:50:42 AM Two points into Sanctified Judgement and it's already sweet. Thanks for the tip, Morf.
Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Righ on January 31, 2008, 06:55:28 AM I don't think you'll need Go for the Throat if you have Bestial Discipline. It would be a mistake in most builds to pass it up. Focus dumps are pet skills with no cooldown timer. The pet can use them as often as they have focus, so any talent that allows you to rapidly generate a chunk of focus gives a big increase to both DPS and threat. I'm not sure of its efficacy in these days of players sporting high resilience, but I love to have savage strikes and a big two handed weapon. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Hutch on January 31, 2008, 07:04:20 AM I don't think you'll need Go for the Throat if you have Bestial Discipline. It would be a mistake in most builds to pass it up. Focus dumps are pet skills with no cooldown timer. The pet can use them as often as they have focus, so any talent that allows you to rapidly generate a chunk of focus gives a big increase to both DPS and threat. Right. Bestial Discipline is such a talent, and it is always working. GFTT depends on you (the pet's master) scoring a crit. I'm just saying, you've got focus generation covered, so those two points in GFTT could be more useful elsewhere. And if you are in PvP, then you might look at dropping those points into the +stamina talent from BM. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Wershlak on January 31, 2008, 07:20:48 AM My paladin. (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cenarion+Circle&n=Grimthorpe) Assorted notes: * No twinkage here. This is my main, so all my gear is drops, quest rewards, or stuff I bought off the AH with money I made on this character. What sort of stuff do I want to equip as a ret paladin? * If I go all-out for damage I become a super mana whore and have to drink after every one or two fights. Am I doing something wrong, or is that just the way this sort of thing plays when you're mostly focusing on str/stam? I'm not sure based on your post here if you are definately sold on retribution or just figure that is best for leveling. I started out Ret as a paladin but switched to Prot at some point when a friend recommended it and it was a blast for leveling. With Prot you'll do more damage with more mobs beating on you. The general strat would be to grab 4 mobs and whack away until they are all dead. You will end up with full hps and full mana. It's pretty fun. Protection is boring in BGs though if you get into that. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: WindupAtheist on January 31, 2008, 07:22:35 AM For some reason my little guild is really heavy on pallies. I'm good friends with a prot and a holy around my level, so I'm ret just because... well I find it cool so far and nobody else is. We'll see what we see.
Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Righ on January 31, 2008, 08:08:15 AM Right. Bestial Discipline is such a talent, and it is always working. GFTT depends on you (the pet's master) scoring a crit. I'm just saying, you've got focus generation covered, so those two points in GFTT could be more useful elsewhere. And if you are in PvP, then you might look at dropping those points into the +stamina talent from BM. Focus generation isn't 'covered' - having both is cumulative. I'm not sure where else you're going to find as much DPS with those points. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Dren on January 31, 2008, 08:22:17 AM Since we're looking at, "How am I doing," I'm posting my build up for view. I'm going after a hybrid of healer for both PvP and Raids. I need to do some cleanup of gems and have a few more items to upgrade (to a reasonable level, speaking PvE wise.) I'm still working on honor, marks, and arena points for more PvP gear and getting an occasional upgrade from Karazhan right now.
My talents go mostly for healer, but sacrifices some to pick up some survivability talents. A dead/stunned/silenced/feared healer isn't very useful. Healadin Huzzah! (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Whisperwind&n=Dren) Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Montague on February 01, 2008, 04:02:36 PM Since we're looking at, "How am I doing," I'm posting my build up for view. I'm going after a hybrid of healer for both PvP and Raids. I need to do some cleanup of gems and have a few more items to upgrade (to a reasonable level, speaking PvE wise.) I'm still working on honor, marks, and arena points for more PvP gear and getting an occasional upgrade from Karazhan right now. My talents go mostly for healer, but sacrifices some to pick up some survivability talents. A dead/stunned/silenced/feared healer isn't very useful. Healadin Huzzah! (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Whisperwind&n=Dren) Go 3/3 Righteous Fury for PVP. Imp Shield Spec is only really useful if you're tanking. The last that I had heard, Imp. Concentration Aura is bugged, and the silence reduction component isn't working like it should, making it nearly useless. With Conc Aura plus Spiritual Focus you'll be 100% resistant to pushback as it is. If you are going to be healing in raids, Light's Grace is a must. I would throw the Imp Conc Aura points into Light's Grace, and move the Shield Spec points into Imp Righteous Fury and the last point into Toughness. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Dren on February 04, 2008, 05:25:26 AM I think I have to agree with you on your talent change suggestions Mont. I have noticed that my Aura isn't really doing what it should be. Fears, silences, etc. don't seem to last any shorter. I do use the aura almost always because impacts and damage do not stop me from healing AT ALL.
The damage reduction of RF would be nice to go whole hog. I really sacrificed Light's Grace because I was spending more time PvP'ing and thought the Conc Aura improvement was going to be amazing. It isn't, so I'll go back. Now I have to do some more dailies just to afford yet another respec... I'm pretty sure I'm up to 50 g now. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Merusk on February 04, 2008, 09:38:15 AM I use imp. concentration in PvP not for myself, but for my caster buddies. They say it works well for them, so I trust 'em. Plus, it's not like any of the other auras are really in the 'uber useful' category.
Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Dren on February 04, 2008, 12:13:26 PM I use imp. concentration in PvP not for myself, but for my caster buddies. They say it works well for them, so I trust 'em. Plus, it's not like any of the other auras are really in the 'uber useful' category. No no, I will still be using the aura. Imp. Aura doesn't make spell interruption any better though. It is supposed to reduce the duration of fear, stuns, cyclone, etc. It doesn't though. So, no reason to waste the points on it. I use it and crusader, nothing else. Crusader to get from place to place faster, and Concentration to be able to cast heal without being interrupted at all (100% along with my other healing talent.) I wanted Imp. Conc. Aura because I'm still very susceptable to stuns, fears, etc. and those are typically the death of me. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Montague on February 04, 2008, 12:59:25 PM I use imp. concentration in PvP not for myself, but for my caster buddies. They say it works well for them, so I trust 'em. Plus, it's not like any of the other auras are really in the 'uber useful' category. No no, I will still be using the aura. Imp. Aura doesn't make spell interruption any better though. It is supposed to reduce the duration of fear, stuns, cyclone, etc. It doesn't though. So, no reason to waste the points on it. I use it and crusader, nothing else. Crusader to get from place to place faster, and Concentration to be able to cast heal without being interrupted at all (100% along with my other healing talent.) I wanted Imp. Conc. Aura because I'm still very susceptable to stuns, fears, etc. and those are typically the death of me. It's been my contention for a long time that paladins should have some sort of temporary fear immunity for both lore and gameplay reasons. Holy - Fears when your trinket is down are devastating. Not only are you interrupted, but you're likely thrown out of range, have to run back and then stop for 3 seconds to cast a significant heal. Prot - Warriors get berserker rage. Yeah it's a pain to stance dance but they have it. Ret - Has to be in melee range to deal damage. Warriors have BR and Death Wish, Rogues get Cloak of Skill, Enhance Shamans get tremor totem(yeah it sucks, but still). Ret paladins are the only melee damage class without a fear counter. Of course lore-wise in most fantasy game genres paladins are immune to fear to begin with. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Zetor on February 04, 2008, 01:10:16 PM Pallies do get fear resistance from a talent, but it's only 10%.
A permanent fear immunity would be a bit much, but I wouldn't mind attaching a fear immunity to Avenging Wrath, or even Righteous Fury [would need to be dispelled in order to get rid of the fear immunity, since reapplying it costs a good amount of mana]. Anyway, when I played my pally as a healer [at 60, so things might've changed], I switched between concentration and resist auras a lot. Shadow Res aura actually provided some decent fear resistance. No idea how it is nowadays, though. -- Z. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: WindupAtheist on February 07, 2008, 05:57:33 AM The insanely disproportionate "AH value of current-level cloth to general current-level income" ratio has long since leveled off, and so now I'm mowing down ogres in Tanaris for mageweave to make into bandages. When someone is questing, I whisper them to let them know that I'm just farming cloth and will stay out of their way. Usually they offer to let me keep all the cloth if I'll group with them, since I'm 61 now, so I do that.
I don't regret putting first aid on hold. Five gold per stack of mageweave had me living in fat city in my forties. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Montague on February 11, 2008, 12:38:53 PM The insanely disproportionate "AH value of current-level cloth to general current-level income" ratio has long since leveled off, and so now I'm mowing down ogres in Tanaris for mageweave to make into bandages. When someone is questing, I whisper them to let them know that I'm just farming cloth and will stay out of their way. Usually they offer to let me keep all the cloth if I'll group with them, since I'm 61 now, so I do that. I don't regret putting first aid on hold. Five gold per stack of mageweave had me living in fat city in my forties. You get your piss-cloud mount yet or what? Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Chimpy on February 11, 2008, 01:23:07 PM I'm looking at going with this (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunter/talents.html?5020120152521225310510550201000000000000000300000000000000000000) for my final hunter talents. I love Beast Mastery, and I never pass up Hawk Eye. Any suggestions in polishing this build for endgame? Of course, I'm still a long ways off. These days I'm focusing on raising up my fishing/cooking/first aid/mining/engineering. I'm a professions whore. Sorry for the semi-necro response to this: Couple of quick things I would change if you want max PvE dps: Drop spirit bond, take one point off frenzy (4/5 keeps it up constantly for all intents and purposes if you have trained cobra reflexes on the pet), move the 1 point in thick hide to endurance training. Take any points you dropped into mortal shots. I don't use hawk eye anymore since I run 41/20 and have not seen a pressing need for it on any fights I have done. Rapid killing is a nice talent that I use simply to lower the CD on rapid to 3 minutes. Rapid+AP trinket+BW = some damn nice burst, esp if imp AotH procs, and that gives you the RF on every other use if you use it religiously every 2 mins. The outdoor movement speed buff I find to be dump-worthy for PvE dps simply because the pet is rarely running after shit outdoors. The only pet I have had where I noticed not having bestial discipline to be a problem was with wind serpents due to the high focus cost of lightning breath. But I agree that in a perfect world, it is a good synergy to have both. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Tale on February 12, 2008, 02:58:00 AM Quote So how am I doing? In the grand scheme of WoW progression, you're still on the first stone of the Great Pyramid. For many people, levelling was a brief inconvenience before the raiding and/or PvP teams game took all their time. But for many more people, levelling to 70 will be the entire WoW experience. Go on, you want to be one of them, climb the pyramid, see what it's really like. Don't you? Feel the pull of Diku!Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: WindupAtheist on February 12, 2008, 03:59:32 AM My "endgame" is probably going to be leveling a spacegoat shammy.
Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: WindupAtheist on February 13, 2008, 08:12:58 PM You get your piss-cloud mount yet or what? I've come to decide I just don't care that much, and have more or less forgotten about it. I can never work up enough interest to go plead for a group for some dead-ass abandoned instance. I'll buy the regular epic at some point when I have the dough, otherwise I don't care. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Phred on February 13, 2008, 11:04:57 PM You get your piss-cloud mount yet or what? I've come to decide I just don't care that much, and have more or less forgotten about it. I can never work up enough interest to go plead for a group for some dead-ass abandoned instance. I'll buy the regular epic at some point when I have the dough, otherwise I don't care. I did the same thing with my pally alt. Didnt feel like bugging friends to help with the dumb ass quest so I just bought him a normal epic horse. Not really that much more expensive than all the $$ you have to lay out to get the items for the mount quest anyway. Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Fordel on February 15, 2008, 12:08:25 AM When/If you reach 70, you can actually solo the paladin mount quest if you ever want it.
Title: Re: So how am I doing? Post by: Phred on February 15, 2008, 04:45:07 AM When/If you reach 70, you can actually solo the paladin mount quest if you ever want it. Pretty hard to put up with a weak-ass ride all the way to 70 though. |