f13.net

:ye_gods:

http://www.nbc11.com/news/14974558/detail.html

So, they just sat still in the car and waited for them to bash their skulls in? God forbid you use that 2 ton vehicle as a self defense weapon and drive away, or over some of the little fuckers. Maybe the Goths just knew how fucking stupid they were and tried to take them out of the gene pool before they reproduced.

Little do people know that there's a whole underground movement of skateboarders, lashing out against Tony Hawk, bagel bites, and the X-Games, seeking to place skating back into it's vandal roots. Our patron saint is Mike V (whether he likes it or not).

The first rule of Project Mayhem....

... is to cause some mayhem?

I was unaware that Goths were allowed to be skateboarders. That shit doesn't fly around here. Punks can be, but not goths.

Are you...oh god, are you suggesting they're breeding?! That's just like AvP! If you know any tough-as-nails yet skinny and attractive women now is the time to make good for the coming apocalypse. They'll be the only thing between your ass and a spiked skateboard with "eternal suffering oi oi oi" written on it in blood.

Story sounds made up.

Sounds more like dad got drunk and his family's enabling his abusive ass.

Why wouldn't it fly? It's just a piece of wood with wheels on it.


Besides, only Krakrok said they were goths. Uh, because they wear black or something.

That story sounds like a horrible piece of crap.

Don't ask me, I don't make the rules around here. I just know that Goths round these parts don't ride skateboards. Punks, Emos, and obviously, Surfies and Skaters do.

I was practicing my "four words to a great internet story title".

I only posted it because I go to San Jose regularly and that's just what I need: Sitting at a stop light in the middle of the night w/ servers in the back and getting attacked by a roving pack of skate bandits.

I agree WayAbvPar though. They must have been parked or something otherwise why didn't they drive away.

That Johnny Cash was a big ol' goth.

Anyone still driving an SUV that's not the work vehicle of some fort of rescue team should be beatend to death at stoplights.

The real victim of this story is me, who had read about a bunch of incompetents who couldn't get the job done.

I lol'd.

Was I the only one that first envisioned the Stygian Triplets from Dogma before remembering they were actually geared up for street hockey instead of skateboards?

You are not alone, brother.

And re the "goths don't skate" thing, I agree.  It comes down to the effects of exercise on all that back-combed, rigidly-constructed hair.  Goths don't do effort, for fear of it collapsing messily on their face.  Plus, it clashes with their elaborate self-image of themselves as languid, consumptive decadents from the twenties.  Obviously, we're talking goths, not emo here.  If they can't picture Lestat doing it, it won't fly.

I had to put away the hairspray and crimping irons myself when I started surfing.  The effects of sunshine and salt water on black no.1 hair-dye is unpleasant.

Instances like this (however rare) are what my CCW and .40 cal under the seat are for.  Chalk up a couple more pluses for living in Alabama:
Goth SUV attacking skateboarders are rare
We can carry a pistol to shoot the fuckers if deemed necessary

So they are terrified because they stayed in one place and took a beating? I realize people make some stupid decisions when panicked, but surely the first impulse when someone lands a skateboard on your fucking car door is to DRIVE THE FUCK AWAY FROM THE TWAT WITH THE SKATEBOARD.

If the guys had started shooting, would they have just sat there and hoped the bullets didn't hit them? It's a fucking SUV, the goddamn thing could crush 3 skater douches on its grill with room for half of the 4th.

You sir can smootch my expedition drivin arse. Ill drive what ever i want to as long as I can afford the gas to do so. Hell the expidition gets better gass mileage than my Mustang.

Yeah, because it's not like your gas guzzling ass is driving up the price of gas for the rest of us or anything.   :hello_thar:

No the oil companies are doing that just fine by themselves. Dont blame me for corporate greed. If we had more refining capabilities gas would cost less as well. God forbid we increade our ability to produce fuel. You would be surprised that the difference in mileage between the SUV and my v6 pickup isnt all that great. 3 or 4 mpg at most. We dont drive the suv every day but man its nice when hauling a crowd to a ball game or going on vacation.

Yeah, SUVs are mostly pointless and unnecessary. I hate seeing so many in NJ, with just 1 fucking driver...

All they are is the modern day station wagon, and about as fuel efficient.

Ever tried fitting a 1 year old in a car seat, an 80 lb boxer, two adults, luggage for three, and toys into a Civic or even a midsize sedan?  Yeah.  Ain't gonna happen.  It's not like the old days where the kid is roaming free unbuckled, or sitting in one of the parents lap as they barreled down the freeway.  I STILL have to use a trailer hitch mounted carrier. 

A minivan (which I begged and pleaded for, but my wife would absolutely have nothing to do with it), whislt being more practical is about as fuel efficient as her SUV. 

But they're still practical as hell.  I used to hate them.  Now?  I love them. 

Yes to everything you listed except the dog is a Sheppard mix at 65 pounds. And the car is a Neon, so a Civic should have room to spare. Unless you're going on a month long trip, you're taking way too much shit. Absolute convenience does not equal necessity. People managed for decades without SUV's and any midsized car being made today has as much carrying capacity as a station wagon from the 80's.

I'll take the comfort and safety of the SUV. 

And, I'll decide my own packing habits for a 350 mile, week long trip, thank ya very much.  Depending on the season, I'll need some or all of the following:
My luggage
My hunting gear (depending on season)
My golf clubs
Wife's luggage (there is NO such thing as a sensible woman when it comes to packing clothes)
Wife's golf clubs
Kid's luggage
Kid's toys
Dog
Dog stuff
Work laptop

And that's just travelling to my parents house.  That's not considering long weekends to the beach, hunting locally, fishing, canoeing, and pretty much anything else outdoors we need.  A Civic (or Neon or any other car save perhaps a Subaru of some sort) just isn't going to get us where we want to go and back, with all of our gear and trailer (boat or 4 wheelers). 

Sorry.  You'll never ever convince me that I can do without -or- make me feel guilty about having an SUV.  And the fact that my wife drives just about the safest vehicle (ML350) you can be in is worth more to me than anything else.

Merc M-Class: http://www.euroncap.com/tests/mercedes_benz_m_class_2002/145.aspx (four stars)

Merc A-Class: http://www.euroncap.com/tests/mercedes_benz_a_class_2005/223.aspx (five stars)

BWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!  :awesome_for_real:

By all means, Haemish.  Bask me in your know all knowledge of vehicle safety.

The only knowledge I have involves the words "rollover." You can google it yourself. I'm too lazy to.

You don't know much about cars do you?

I try not to. They are the things that go "VRROOMM" right?

Something like that.

There are different kinds of Goth. I'm sure there's sociology papers actually tracking the different Goth sects. According to a friend of mine, Goths get notoriously bitchy when the "wrong sort" of Goth is around. She's probably biased, as she was more the Lestat-type (Victorian-esque clothing, poetry, sad thoughts about death) amongst a bunch of industrial types that were barely distinquishable from punks.

Jesus, we make the world too complicated.

Just don't ever call any of them Emo.  Goths *hate* being mixed up with Emos.


Source: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/


Thank you for wasting 500 gallons of gas a year hauling around your golf clubs.

Anytime. 

A Ford Focus wagon won't pull a 25 foot Contender that weighs 7000+ lbs ready to fish, and subsequently burns 150+ gallons of fuel in a day, or about a gallon a minute.  A Ford Focus wagon won't pull two four wheelers+trailer.  A Ford Focus won't pull the '68 Mustang when needed on a flatbed trailer.

That's what the Ford PSD 4x4 is for.

I'm the very far end of gasoline usage spectrum.  My hobbies aren't everyman hobbies.

There's not a single vehicle in my garage that gets over 18 mpg probably.  And I'll sit in my leather wrapped climate controlled comfort, and sip my double mocha latte just for you.

I  :heart: my Mustang and it gets worse gas mileage then my Blazer.

I'm not giving up either for some hybrid p.o.s.

Come talk to us when oil hits $150 a barrel.

And it still won't bother me. 

The boat is owned be me and two friends who split the initial cost three ways from a government auction at a substantially lower cost than walking into a dealership and buying one new.  A new 25' Contender fully rigged out would be in the neighborhood of 150K-180K (which we couldn't afford even going in 1/3rds).  Our cost was much, much less even after repair and putting new electronics on it.

Typically a fishing trip is 5 people, splitting the cost 5 ways.  The PSD was bought used (also government auction), and isn't daily driven.  Even though it doesn't burn that much more diesel than the GTO burns gas, it's just too damn big and is a complete bear to bring into the parking garage at my office.

Further, as far as fuel is concerned between me and my wife - First, we don't drive that much.  She averages about 8K a year, I average about 15K a year.  Second, she's technically an employee of my company, and both of our fuel costs (and maintanence) are absorbed by the company as a tax write off. 

In the grand scheme of things, our fuel costs would pretty much be a nonissue even if they weren't written off as an expense.  We just don't have that far to drive to anywhere.  26 mile round trip from my driveway to my office downtown.  4 mile round trip to grocery store/other.  Hell, it's only a 50 mile round trip from my house to Dauphin Island where put the boat in the water.

The '99 PSD gets MAYBE 5,000 miles a year - even loaning it out to friends
The '68 Mustang is still in resto-mod mode, and will likely get about 2,000 miles in a year (being split between the GTO and GNX)
The '87 GNX will get MAYBE 3,000 miles a year (being split between the GTO and Mustang).
The '04 GTO will get the remaining 10,000 miles a year.
The '05 ML350 gets 8,000 a year.

The difference between my 18 mpg GTO and a 30 mpg econobox is about 1300 a year, or just over a hundred bucks a month.  Not enough for me to worry about, especially considering I'd be in absolute HELL driving an econobox rattletrap deathmobile.

I also drive a Mustang and could afford that.  Helps that I carpool, but doesn't really matter for me.  Talking about whether I, or Evildrider, or SnakeCharmer, or anyone else can afford their car is a bit beside the point though; it gas gets to the point that people in the 25mpg range can't afford to drive, the world is just plain fucked.  Switching to 35mpg vehicles won't fix that.  

This was surprisingly well argued. I wish I could find some people to come together and do the same with a house instead of a boat.  :oh_i_see:

Pretty much agreed here.. we are just fucked.  Hybrids may "save the planet" but they also cost more to buy and maintain.  Ethanol is already jacking up prices of corn, which means that we may save money at the pump.. but we are paying more elsewhere.

Pretty much it.  

Besides, just, what, 5 years ago oil was ~$50 a barrel.  It's ~$100 now.  People adapted.  It will be the same thing when it reaches ~$150, and it eventually will, probably sooner rather than later - especially if another couple hurricanes use the Gulf of Mexico as their playground, and not if but when a Democratic president is elected and permits research and drilling for oil in the GoM gets hamstrung.

Whatever I am going to drive is going to be what I want to drive.  I want to be comfortable, I want it to be 'me'.  I want my wife and son in something safer than some econobox.  Gas prices are something very low on the totem pole of priorities for me.

It's indeed a great argument for how SnakeCharmer can afford being wasteful, which is something that was never really in any doubt.  Of course, the point was how being wasteful affects everyone, not just Snakecharmer, but why would anyone care about the big picture when we can instead justify our own consumption with the classic "We're fucked anyway!" rationalization.

Maddox had the final word on goths IMO. (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=gothagain)

How many cel phones do you go through a year?
How many DVD/CD's do you trash or not reuse (those that are RW)?
How many times do you carpool or use mass transit?
How many times do you fill your home recycle bin and take it in?
How many times are you be sure to purchase goods made of recycled material?
How many times have you bought regular batteries instead of rechargeables?
How many times have you upgraded your computer and sold/tossed the old part away?
How many times a year do you contribute time and money to local conservation efforts?
Paper or plastic?
How often do you ride a bike?
How much of an effort have you made to make your house more green?

Want me to go on?

I note the conspicuous lack of reply to my post.  :awesome_for_real:

I forgot all about it to be honest.

What do you expect as a reply, anyway?  Some sites say 5*, some say differently.  Depends on who you want to believe.

Rationalization Number 2: No one else does enough, so why should I do anything?


So, what did all of that have to do with you wasting gas?

Edit: I'd like to note that none of that is due to some big conscious effort to be Green and save teh world.  I don't own a cel phone because I haven't found a need for one.  I'm fortunate to happen to live very close to where I work.  I tend to not be a big consumer of items: I don't buy a lot of things I don't need and tend to keep the things I do buy.  It's great for not wasting money.

That unless you're doing everything you can do live in a green environment, you might want to stop tossing stones whilst living in a glass house.

Exactly. I'm with Snakecharmer. If you're not doing EVERYTHING possible, including living in a totally off the grid cave and drinking your own urine (AND in a manner that does NOT affect local animal migration patterns!), you CANNOT bitch about ANYONE's enviromental impact.

Even if they're buying up rainforests and burning them to see the pretty colors. Even if they're removing entire mountops and dumping the waste into your water supply. Even if they're driving a 12mpg 4 wheel, jacked up pickup that can haul five times it's own weight on their daily commute to the mall.

YOU MAY NOT, EVER, even suggest that someone's having an excessive impact on the enviroment unless you have no impact on it at all yourself.

You fucking hypocrite.

Oh shit, forgot the green.

I'm not the one criticizing his impact on the environment.

Of course, you just TOTALLY missed that one, didn't you, Sparky?

And beyond that, you have NO idea what efforts I make (and have for years) in environmental conservation.

Gas usage is a small drop in the bucket on the grand scheme.

This is true, he hasn't been hypocritical in this thread.  He's been completely consistent in rationalizing his sense of entitlement.

Edit:


Feel free to fill out your own little checklist there if you feel unfairly persecuted.

I've never stated a thing about entitlement.  You're the one making that leap of faith.

My only major beef with SUVs is they fucking hurt like hell when you get hit by one. It's true they are safe, but it's because they fuck up whatever they hit. I'd much rather see everyone in smaller lightweight cars, cuz then I'd be on equal footing with them. The only way to be safer than an SUV at this point is to drive a tank. The mileage sucks too, but I suspect the car makers will deal with that soon enough if gas prices keep going up.

It appears you missed my point, Sparky.

Yeah, I know. I was arguing your side. See, you were calling him a hypocrite for criticizing YOUR impact on the enviroment when he's got to be just as bad -- or at least not PERFECT. There's more he can be doing, for sure!

It's a really tired old dodge, very lazy. But it sure makes you feel nice and good to use it, doesn't it? Hell, I didn't get involved in the dick waving "Who drives what" conversation 'cause I don't care, but that particular little response is just so smugly wrong I had to say something.

Just look at how easily that logic applies. Say I'm smoking two packs a day. My brother comes up to me and says "Morat, you're going to fucking kill yourself you know. That shit causes cancer". And I look at him and say "Hey, fucker, you're not wearing sunscreen. Don't lecture me about cancer, when you're blatantly standing outside without sunscreen!".

It's fun! I imply he's a hypocrite (for condemning my cancer causing habits, since he's of course ALSO risking cancer) without ever having to take into account pesky details like degree, risks, effort, costs, or anything else complex like that. PLUS I get to keep lighting up AND I get to feel all smug and shit.

Win fucking Win.

It might have helped if I'd explained what EuroNCAP is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAP), I suppose.

With you and your propensity for internet reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetard outburst, I never know.

Plus, I admit to falling down the sarchasm every now and then.

Not going to comment on the gas thing, but safety?

PFFT. The only reason you "need" a big SUV to be "safe" is due to the idiots on the road driving other, oversized SUVs. Usually holding only a driver. With no cargo. While the idiot is yammering on the phone.

Sure, I drive a Mustang, and get mid-20s in MPG. No it's not what I would like, but I don't have much of a choice. I currently don't carpool, and when I did, the guy I was switching off with drove one of those small Explorers (the two door type), so it's not like we were Really conserving tons of gas. I have to fill up once a week, if I don't do much driving outside of work.

And fuck, I really do wish I could take public transportation, but in suburban NJ, it's simply not feasible.

If you can afford something, it's ok in all possible ways!
If what you drive is safe for you personaly, it's safe for everyone you crash into.
If you have friends and go fishing you're awesome! (and it's awesome for everyone you tell about it!)

Unless you're stupid you should do as I do and talk cliches on a message board while comparing yourself to jesus (and being a racist fuckwit from time to time too).

(Get a fucking diesel 4WD, fuckwit)

Your obsession with me is really a bit scary.  

Sorry, dude.  I'm a happily married heterosexual male.  Not interested.   Beyond that, don't like what I have to say?  Don't read it. 

Edit:  Nevermind, got you confused with another one of my apparent fanboys.

BTW, the PSD in PSD 4x4?  It means Power Stroke Diesel.  And if you read a bit of that rather than seeing my name and REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEing, you would noticed the following sentence in reference to it specifically:



Reading comprehension ftw.

edit: heh, not even worth stooping to your level.

That's pretty much it. 

Surprisingly, my wife is a really good driver.  It's everyone else I worry about.

If you don't like what I have to say then stop posting your silly justifications to begin with. Then I wont have anything to respond to. (Two can play at this stupid game! Who knew?)

(Also: Pity Geldon couldn't get away with such a defense.)

Apologies on the 4x4 PSD, I just saw SUV all over the place and assumed, power reading through everything else.

Honestly, if you have a 4x4 and use it for doing 4x4 stuff then I don't really have a problem. It's when you use it to get the groceries and shit that it's stupid. You implied that you wife drives it about daily (or so my speed reading indicated) which is not the same as that.


A couple of cheap points to be made here:

1. A good woman driver?
2. If she's such a good driver she's not going to crash into them with her oversider SUV, so why worry about them?

Good drivers not only do not get into accidents if it can be helped, but also actively drive in a way so as to minimize the chance of getting into accidents.

A lot of people accomplish the former. The latter...not so much.

Yeah, actually.  A good woman driver.

I don't worry about her doing something stupid.  I worry about other people doing something stupid that:
a) She doesn't time to react to (something from outside her peripheral vision)
b) Doesn't have anywhere to 'go', or have an 'out'

Crazy shit can and does happen, no matter how good or careful you are.  
It's not so much for all the things I can think of that can go wrong, it's all the things that I can't think of.  
Those are what scare me.

I was making a pun:

SnakeCharmer meant he wasn't worried about his wife getting into an accident but he was worried about other drivers crashing in to her. I played on the ambiguity of 'about' to imply that SnakeCharmer was actually worried for those other drivers; worried about what damage his wife might cause them in her oversized buggy.

It was incredibly (incredibly!) funny and I'm sad you failed to appreciate it.

I wasn't really responding so much to you, as making a general point.

Heh, Snakecharmer is such a fucking cliche.

Tu quoque. 

He's wrong if his intent is to say his rather excessive use of gas is ok.  He's right if his intent is to point out that in the overall scheme of things, he may not be an especially bad participant; to know that you'd have to know his overall impact relative to yours (or whomever else), which would mean knowing all of the consumer habbits of everyone you'd like to compare.  Smug asshattery is picking one thing to heckle, and placing that above everything else. 

In contrast you'd have to look at all consumerism and consider how much stuff gets imported and transported - because that burns gas too.  You'd have to look at where people live, because that affects things like environmental impact; suburban sprawl cuts down ecosystems, creates less efficient resource distribution (trash pickup, mail, drive to work, cost to ship to retail stores, cost to drive to those stores to buy things), hurts the ability of mass transit (no longer efficient), and so forth.  You'd have to look at electricity consumtion.  You'd have to look at any luxury spending, because that's money that could be put toward helping the environment, healthcare, poverty, whatever.

And anyway, you're not pointing at him and telling him to quit smoking because you care about his health.  You're trying to riddicule him for internet oneupmanship.  He probably is wasting way more gas than he needs, but if your goal was really to help environmental issues, you're probably going to get a lot farther by fixing shit in your own home than you will making fun of people on the internet.

You can't do both?

I'm going to work out a method to use internet drama & flame wars as a power source and solve the energy crisis in one fell swoop.  :drill:

Both of what?  There's hundreds of things you can do to improve multiple aspects of society.  Vehicle choice is just one of them. 

Heh. 

Yanno, if I was unhappy with myself or my life, or really worried what 'Anonymous Internet Angst-ridden Insult Guy #33498179387419872341' thinks of me, I might be offended. 

You know. Fuck this burden on the citizenry bullshit. Fuck Al Gore.

You get corporate waste and pollution under control and we can talk about it. Until then, you're just jacking yourself off to feel like you're making a difference. And where does it end? Do we all hold hands and live in caves, some unsustainable and unrealistic hippy commune paradise? Shut off your computer and unplug your lights, you planet vampire!

I support recycling and alternative energy and all that jazz, but because I want our society to function better and improve, not because I think I'm saving the planet. The planet will be just fine...humans are fucked, though (to paraphrase the Almighty Carlin).

Actually...recycling isn't all that environmentally friendly. Well, certain parts of it anyway - mainly paper. It'd be better on the whole if new paper was milled from sustainable forests instead.

Who said I was trying to insult you? I just find it funny. Revel in your clicheness.

EDIT: Oh, and you obviously do care or you wouldn't spend so much effort in self-justification.

Forests of marijuana. Trees are so slow.

Yeah, recycling might not be most energy efficient and all, unless they put garbage dump near your city/home/forest.

Also, all gas issues in US could be solved by applying proper, EU style(100-150%) fuel tax. You could finance your social security from it, or give everyone free PS3, or something:)

Besides that, I don't really get SUVs myself. They suck at speed, acceleration, mileage, parking, carrying capacity(compared to spacious cars), offroading, safety and handling. Wouldn't it be better to get two good cars instead of one shitty one?

What do you mean they suck at offroading? Besides proper Trucks, they're the only things going offroad, usually.

SUV is not a proper 4WD in most cases.

What do you mean? They don't have the clearance, wheels, or they don't have actual 4WD?

I mean, who the hell buys an SUV that cannot even go offroad if need be? Or that cannot properly drive in the snow?


Actually, reminds me of a guy who had a nice Dodge Ram once. spent all kinds of money on the wheels....after skimping and not getting 4WD. He amused us during a blizzard once, desperately trying to go around a corner, and failing because only one tire was spinning. :oh_i_see:

Most buyers, in fact.

Judging from the traffic patterns here, in lovely old Texas, the bulk of SUV's are driven by people who have no plans to drive their vehicle offroad. EVER. And it doesn't snow here in Houston. It occasionally floods, and I see lots of flooded out SUV's when it happens.

I wouldn't know what percentage of SUV's have 4WD, but it's not nearly all of them -- and of those that do, I'd be shocked if even a third of them were EVER in 4WD mode during the car's lifetime.

In other news, sales of Prius' were higher than Ford Explorer's last year.

Fun fact about SUVs... a majority of their warranties are actually voided if you take it offroad. Basically, it's in the warranty contract that if they determine that it's been in water or mud over a certain height, generally by visual inspection and mud on the insides, you're totally fucked.

Most people get SUVs to haul shit around, not to off road.  Plus, more stylish than minivans.

I wanted a minivan, to be honest.   The 2008 Grand Caravan is a sweet, sweet ride. 
But she-who-must-be-obeyed-most-of-the-time won out. 

Maybe in a couple years, when the tyke is playing baseball and all that.

Funnily enough I play GTA3 at the moment, and already then people made fun of the "We need SUVs in the city" crowd.

QFT.  The problem's a systemic one, and switching to energy-efficient lightbulbs (or hybrid cars) isn't going to solve it.  It'll help, maybe, but it's not the answer.

As to the jacking off:

Smug Alert! (http://allsp.com/l.php?id=e141)

The SUV I want:

(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:FhK96n9KhyJSkM) (http://www.toyota.com/fjcruiser/)

Since I also want to get a house, I'll probably have to pass. My truck is finally starting to fall apart and I need to figure out something quick. Don't want to buy another old junker, don't really want to lease. Can't afford to dick my credit around with a new car. Tired of exploring possibilities and ending up back at square one every damned time, circular thinking ftl.

I have one of those, just the 2008 sand color. It's great fun to drive, does off-road stuff, rides well on snow/ice, I can haul the 2500lbs of stock I need for work behind it, and fit all my stuff (clothes computer etc) inside. It's better mileage than my old vehicle (an '89) and lower emissions. Yet I get shit from my 'environmentally conscious' friends, who all seem to have a minivan and a small car.

Not here in Texas they don't, unless by "haul shit around" you mean "Haul themselves around".

Of course, we not only have a shit-ton of SUV's that are only ever driven by one person and never have anything bulkier than a few sacks of groceries running around, but we ALSO seem to have 95% of the world's supply of F150s and at least 80% of any other sort of truck.

A ton of them without a single scratch mark on their pain, a surprising number with double rear wheels (and no signs of ever having a load that might need it).

Most people get SUV's so they can "see better" -- mostly because the other SUV's are fucking blocking their LOS. They feel safer up high. It's not true -- they're probably less at risk, finally, from a collision with another car (that wasn't true for the first 5 to 10 years of SUV's -- their crash ratings were for shit) but they're at far more risk for collision with a solid object -- all that extra mass.

good paying jobs with disposable income for teh win!!

Is your head buried in the sand, or in your ass?  :drill:

Nothing like using all your disposable income to drive around a giant penis surrogate. Enjoy it, I guess. 

That would be to weed out the dipshits who do shit like get drunk, go muddin', and get their rig broken down in mud deeper than their tires, and then try to clean it up and file a claim pretending otherwise.  Seen it happen.

That's not quite true.  If any dealer were to refuse the warranty claim, it's possible they could get sued or more pointedly the manufacturer could get sued for false advertisement.  It would be similar to a sports car owner voiding their warranty for getting heavy on the go fast pedal.  While it could possibly initially be viewed as 'abuse', they would have a hard time justifying it.  By all means, that doesn't mean bring it in covered in mud, but it doesn't have to be spotless.  A mechanic that's even halfway awake can tell if a spotless car has been abused.  There are tell tale signs, and they take from 5 to 30 minutes to see.  Besides, a dealer is more than happy to do just about any warranty work because it's charged back to the manufacturer - it's a guaranteed sale to a customer.  The absolute best thing you can do before taking any car into a dealer before warranty work that you feel MIGHT be not covered, is to do your research.  Alldata.com (http://www.alldata.com) is loaded with invaluable information, as well as doing a search for TSB (Technical Service Bulletins) (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/tsbs/), or even just google searching it.  You can print up the manufacturers own dealer distributed TSBs and show them to an uncooperative service manager.  The Magnusun-Moss Act is a good thing to read up on as well. 

And as far as going offroad, one of the last statistics I read was that 11 percent of 4x4 or AWD vehicles ever go off the pavement.

Since my other car is a convertible, the joy of having something so different with a 4x4 was too much for me to resist: within 24 hours of getting it I was sitting in the middle of a ford (as in the river sort, not the cars) going "heh this is awesome."  I just don't see how people can resist.  I was in a frozen field two days ago using the surface as a more unpredictable skid-pan.  Sometimes there is even a point...

I'm saving up for a coal-powered Puppy Shredder.

They're incredibly convenient.

Interesting. PM me, I have a puppy-powered coal mine. We could work out a deal.

Fantastic.  I'm all for sustainability.

Me too. Puppies are pretty sustainable, but when I unveil my bunny-powered strip miner, I'll be rolling in Green.

My puppy eats his own poop.

That's sustainable isn't it?

No.  Means he's not getting enough (or missing) nutrients in his food and is trying to get it by eating his poop. 

Basically, he's malnourished.  Get him some good kibble like Iams, Science Diet, or Eukanuba.  Cheap dog foods just aren't worth it.  They look better, smell better, poop less.

That might not be the only reason, sir. Your dog also might be eating too quickly, which also causes malnourishment.

Also, Iams, Science Diet, and Eukanuba are all shit. Try Solid Gold. It's more expensive, but totally worth it.

Easier to find shiny poop.

Or just put vitamin pills in his poop!

I can't believe you all like the FJ over the jeep  :sad_panda:

But the FJ only has a hard top and comes with IFS (I luv the bullshit Toyota says on the website about IFS), and with more poking around trying to build and price a FJ vs 4door Wrangler Rubicon, it gets frustrating.

FJ:
No locking front axle
no skid plates standard (can be added)
no performance shocks (can be added)

comes to about $29,728

4 door Jeep Wrangler Unlimited:
Has a live axle, skid plates, but doesn't come with a hard top, so had to get the dual top group.

comes to about $32,000

Neither came set up for trailer towing and had to add those packages in.

The Toyota has the benefit of being a Toyota, you know that fucker ain't gonna break down.  Jeep's can be hit or miss, you might get the one that you can use and abuse and never lets you down, or you can get the psycho one that decides to shut off for no reason in the weirdest of places.  I was told that the FJ and Wranglers are still selling like crazy, but that the rest of the SUV's and trucks are taking a beating now.

I set up a decent Rubicon for just over $32000, the FJ is building out at just over $34000. On the one hand, being able to take off the roof of the Jeep would be nice for hauling larger stuff (tv, heh). But other than the suspension differences you note, CR seems to heavily favor the FJ. Also might get some favoritism in pricing since the fiancee also drives a Toyota and gets it serviced regularly at the dealership.

If you plan on going off road with regularity, get the Jeep.  You can't beat Jeep's four wheel drive systems and live axles for strength.  Very cheap to mod the hell out of them as well.  Easy to work on if you break something.

If you plan on keep it out of the mud, go with the FJ.  Really hard to beat a Toyota.

Depreciation is a toss up.  Jeeps (the ones that you're looking at) don't drop their value.

See if you can find one used.  Let someone else take the hit on the initial 'drive off the lot' depreciation.

CR has hated jeep and suzuki, I don't trust them as a review (except for the maintenance records review) source.

IFS or swing axles are either a love or hate relationship.  I hate them with a passion, but that is because I want to tinker, I want to mess with the suspension and all the other parts of my truck/jeep, so a straight axle is going to be a lot simpler, stronger, and fixable, than a swing axle.  Of course I actually get out in the mud and use my transfercase, so I'm down in that 4%.  IFS or the swing axle, allows for better ride, so if you like the pavement or desert stuff, it would be pretty nice, oh it sucks for maintenance and doing modifications.  Solid axles allow for more traction (when one wheel goes up, the other goes down, creating more traction), are easier to fix, build up, and pretty much great if you have to get off the pavement.  No matter how much schooling I get, the redneck comes out and when I see a 4x4 I say, "Dude! Wait till we get a lift kit and some big ass tires on it!"  Hence my love for easy to fix and lift vehicles.  If you got a lot of mud, snow, rock, or running the beach, it might matter and grab a Jeep, but if you want reliability, don't care about the soft top, and don't plan on tinkering, then go for the FJ.

Really both are good vehicles, the other suv's don't even come close now.  A really good steal would be to get a jeep Cherokee (XJ) from 2000 or 2001 with the I6 and 5 speed (make sure it is the NV3500).  Those haven't been beat to death as most were grocery getter's for mothers :D and still have a ton of life left in them and a ton of aftermarket parts.

The FJ is that retro-styled thing that's only sold in the US, right?
Putting on my Motor Industry hat: Buy a real Landcruiser second-hand (or third-hand, or whatever). It'll do anything you ask of a Jeep but will go on forever.

Most of my wish for a Jeep/FJ/whatever comes from owning a Cherokee back in the 90s. That thing was a beast in the snow, loved it. I'm not going to do 'off-roading' per se, as in getting the guys together and moshing the mud bowl (which we used to do in our station wagons as kids :P). But we do like to hike, so solid off-road is nice to have, and in the snow that shit is nirvana. I wouldn't be getting a soft-top, not even a consideration.

Right now I'm doing background checks on Consumer Reports and Consumer Guide. Having the best suspension for mudding or rockcrawling isn't quite as important as the overall performance of the vehicle, which is what they're looking at. Safety angles, acceleration, yada. They do mention that off-road-centric people should get them and highlight that part of the performance.

The lead contender at the moment is actually the 4wd v6 sport suspension Rav4, which is coming in $4-6k cheaper, though with huge sacrifices in flexibility. On the upside, it'd fit in my garage, so I wouldn't have to move :P (The FJ or Rubicon would fit in the garage, I'd just have to 3pt turn it in from the alley) It's also more agile on the road, which would be nice for vacation driving.

I've also considered the used angle, especially the old Cherokee. Not sure I want to get into another older vehicle right now, though the thought of having someone else eat the massive depreciation of the first five years is tempting. The single biggest problem in the entire situation is that I want to buy a house and one of the worst things you can do just before getting a mortgage is buy a new vehicle if you're not already carrying that debt load (I've owned my truck for seven years without payments). I'm glad to have the freedom to have choices, but it seems illusory when my hands are tied!

By the house, then shop for a vehicle?

I did a quick autotrader search for Jeep Grand Cherokees under 20K.  Found 143 vehicles within 25 miles of my location, with quite a few only a couple years old.

Really good vehicle.  I put 100k hard miles on one (4x4 Laredo with the 4.0 inline 6), with very few problems.

I love some older models of vehicles, but buying someone else's wear and tear always has been a problem. People drive for shit, and used manuals always seem to have clutch/transmission issues.

Plus, safety was actually a concern for me after seeing a friend get bashed to hell in his Suzuki last year. crumple zones, airbags, active restraint, etc. are kinda nice to have after years of owning something with belts alone.

Need a vehicle. Truck is on its last legs.

I'm with Rattran on used vehicles. New trucks are FUCKING EXPENSIVE, though. I want to go on a vengeance spree on all these assholes burying themselves in credit to buy shit they can't afford so it jacks up prices MRJNjbkhbhajbrghveqar434 (and ARMs)

Test drove the FJ, nice ride. Planning on buying it.

Won't fit in my garage. Shitty old frankengarage that has been added onto (single stall > double stall > car port > awning). Going to have to knock a couple inches off the moulding/entry and about five inches off the crappy awning. Maybe I'll push for the awning to go away.

Times like this it's nice to have my landlord by the nuts, he really doesn't want to lose me as a tenant...problem is he and his father take forever to do a halfass job. I'm leaning toward taking a sawzall to the whole thing and cleaning it up after.

How much does the FJ weigh?  If over 6,000 lbs you can get a pretty significant tax write off if you can prove you use it for business purposes.

4290lbs curb weight (4wd)

I was out playing with mine in an unplowed parking lot yesterday. The vsc / active traction control is too good, I couldn't get any fun slides or spins going. It's hard even to get it to fishtail.

Sales guy said there is a way to disable it, I said the same thing in my test drive. I use slides as a normal part of winter driving, sometimes it's the best way to control things in the snow. I'll try to get him to show me how or at least call him on BS tomorrow night.

Current plan is to take the sawzall to the entire awning piece, should be doable, but the lintel/top moulding/whatever (the garage door opening height) is going to be a stone cold bitch to change.

There wasn't an immediately obvious traction control button?  Odd.  I'm guessing it's probably near the 4 wheel drive mode selector or on the dash to the right of the steering wheel.  Hell, if you're in mud, you need some wheelspin to clear the cleats and knobbies of the tires.

Locking the rear diff turns it off. Still not easy to slide though. On the plus side, I pulled a gmc 2wd truck out of a ditch. Then saw the plow on the front  :uhrr:

Eh, won't fit in the garage. Looks like I have to fix up my shittty old beater for another couple years. I'm depressed. I hate my ghetto apartment.

1984 is when Toyota killed the FJ-40 (1960-1984), that was the jeep version from Toyota.
FJ-55 was the 4 door 4x4 that lasted from 1972-1980.
FJ-60 replaced the FJ-55 and had a length from 1980-1990.
Toyota trucks and 4Runners up to 1985 (1986 has that damned IFS again!) were stylish, practical, and great trucks!  North America should have gotten the hilux with the 4 doors way sooner...

I love those vehicles too, but it all comes back to Jeep.  Everyone stoped playing in the dirt except jeep. 

BTW, you don't see companies taking solid axles and making them swing axles, you see companies taking IFS and making them solid.

edit:
OMG! Sky you should get this, toyota truck (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1982-Toyota-4-x-4-Pick-Up-Truck-SR5-4WD-82-83-81-4x4_W0QQitemZ220194942651QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220194942651)  I'm a sucker for old iron...

Last thing I want is another pick'em up truck. If only this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-TOYOTA-FJ55-LOW-ORIG-MI-4X4-IN-CA-RUNNING-PROJECT_W0QQitemZ150209825470QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item150209825470) wasn't in CA!