f13.net

If I'm calculating the time difference correctly, we have under two hours untill the Mitchell Report is released, and an estimated 50 pro baseball players are named as steriod users. 

That means one thing: there's still time to place your bets on who's on the list!  My first pick would Clemens, but I see on ESPN that his name is already rumored to be in there, so I'll choose someone else.  I *will* bet that far more pitchers are going to be on the list than most would expect.  Kenny Rogers, I'm looking at you, Mr. revitalized-career/new-wild-emotions guy.

Being a Cards fan, I have to wonder if Pujols is going to be on there.  Or the fan favorties: A-Rod?  Jeter? Schilling?  The possibilties!

Personally, I believe there are more than 50 players taking illegal steriods in MLB.  And I hope every single fucking one of them gets banned from the game.

All of them.

Ichiro Suzuki.

How comprehensive is the list they are going to publish? How far back does it go?

My longshot...

If it's reasonably comprehensive and goes back at least 5-8 years I would guess Omar Vizquel will be on it. There's no other explanation to how he's extended his career at shortstop going on 40 years old (IMO).

That's how I feel about Clemens.  (And possibly Brett Farve this year in the NFL.  But that's another thread.)

Mitchell had no actual supoena power, and it sounds like a lot may just be conjecture, but I'm sure enough names of actual takers are going to be outed that it's going to have some weight behind it.  No idea how far back it goes into naming people, but I think they started the report in 2006.

Favre's been able to play so long due to lack of injuries.  He has rarely taken a hard hit - sacked, yes - but he protects himself well.

YOU LEAVE FARRRRVRRREH ALONE!!!

 :heartbreak:

I lived in Wisconsin for six years; that means I get to criticize Farve once every other year.  Native Wisconsinites can do it every six months.

But really, he just got worse and worse for the past 3-4 years.  I'm skeptical of any miraculous sports comeback, but especially in the NFL where it destroys your body.   

He didn't lose his velocity, though. 

Had he gone from throwing wounded ducks that barely made it 30 yards to throwing 60 yard laser strikes, I'd concede it to a certain degree (excusing better throwing mechanics).  But steroids won't make you more accurate, or get you better receivers.

Many people are still way behind the times when it comes to steroids, thinking that pitchers don't use them because they make your muscles short and tight and wreck your velocity. Yes, many pitchers will be on the list.

If the list is only 50 names then it is not nearly complete. And in football let's be real here, steroid use is through the roof.

I imagine they could, actually.  If your arm is stronger then you won't be operating as close to your limit to achieve the same results which should increase your accuracy.  Of course, anyone who gets stronger will probably just throw harder instead of better but that's besides the point.

You'd probably be a lot more accurate if you had steroids buffering the beating your body takes.  It's not always to increase strength and speed, but to lessen the wear and tear your body takes and to aid in injury recovery time. 

That being said, I don't really care about baseball.

Steroids will make you better at virtually every physical activity, as Rasix says if for no other reason than keeping you injury-free.

The distinction between strength and skill in sports with the notion that steroids only affect the former is an invention.

OK.  To a certain point, I'll agree that steroids will help your accuracy in the long term (muscle fatigue, specifically muscle fatigue causing a breakdown in mechanics).  But hitting a baseball and hitting the strikezone is based on hand eye coordination. 

Having said that, using Bonds as an example, he was a fantastic hitter *before* he turned into the black Hulk - I'd argue that he's the best pure hitter to ever play the game.  The extra strength he developed allowed his off-the-sweetspot-hits to be stronger since he was able to muscle through it.  Essentially, there was more leverage behind an offcenter hit (the angle of attack wouldn't breakdown as much; if at all).  Same for McGuire. 

Also, if steroids faught off injury, Bonds wouldn't have undergone multiple surgeries on his knee and elbow, and other physical problems he's had over the last 5-7 years.


Guys that can't hit before steroids (or just buffing up in strength naturally) don't suddenly develop the hand eye coordination of Bonds afterwards.

 :roll:

And the list is out:


Edit to add link: http://frontrowsportsreport.com/2007/12/13/full-list-of-mlb-players-mentioned-in-the-mitchell-report/

Edit #2: Here's a better list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_named_in_the_Mitchell_Report

I don't know why you're rolling your eyes when it's the truth.  He had, I think 3 surgeries in one year on the same knee.  Further, McGuire was hampered by back and knee injuries the last couple of years of his career.

I'm not saying he doesn't/didn't use them if that's what you're getting at.  If so, learn2read.

Here are my questions:

1) Who cares?  

2) How much of my tax money is going into this witch hunt?  

I'd say that HGH is much more beneficial in the recovery time from minor injuries.  Anabolic steroids do little to aid/prevent injury.  Corticosteroids are likely more beneficial due to their antiinflammatory actions but they don't do much to enhance performance (beyond alleviating pain caused by inflammation).

I think we, as Americans, deserve the biggest, strongest, fastest, most unnaturally superhuman athletes that science can create.  Good on these men for trying to do us proud.

It will be some time until we beat the East German women's weightlifting team. 

 :rimshot:

If Major League Baseball vanished from the face of this Earth I would not be affected at all.

THIS LIST IS SHOCKING

I LOVE STUDIES THAT REQUIRE NO RESEARCH.

JOSE CANSECO AND BENITO SANTIAGO

YES

SHOCK AND AWE

STEROIDS, AS AMERICAN AS APPLE PIE.

So much for that feel good story, ESPN.  :awesome_for_real:

Personally, I'm a little shocked that schild knows the names of baseball players.

Odd to not see McGwuire's name on the list.  

What was the name of the guy in the Viagra commercials that got busted a couple years ago?

Raphael Palmiero

Big Mac stopped playing years ago, I think they only mentioned current players. 

It's odd, really.  What he was taking was both legal and allowed by the rules at the time, yet everyone treats him like crap.  I feel the same for Barry Bonds.  Yeah, he's an ass, but so are half the guys in baseball, and a good chunk of them are probably on HGH as well. 

There's a number of players that have been out for a while, Conseco and Dykstra coming immediately to mind.

But yeah, I don't get the McGwuire hate either. 

Bonds gets the hate he deserves.  He's surly, rude, and a complete asshole. 

Apple pie with a slice of American cheese one it with CO2 Wiped steroid wiping cream!!

YAY!

The Mitchell Report was commissioned by MLB (i.e. Bud Selig) not Congress.

I think the McGuire hate comes from how he came off in his senate testimony.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=942HcHKbOno

That's all I could find with a quick search but there was lots of talk about how he wanted to move on and be a champion for the cause blah blah blah and then he basically went into hiding.

According to reports the stuff he was caught with was not the only stuff he was taking. In Canseco's book, which has turned out to be basically 100% accurate, he reams McGuire as his steroid injecting buddy. McGuire also refused to say on the record that he didn't take steroids.

Andro was only one of the many things McGuire was on. The guy is as dirty as you can get.

Edit: In Canseco's book he talks about how he and Mac would inject each other in the ass with 'roids. Anyone who thinks McGuire wasn't on the juice is fooling themselves.

Also although HGH is not a steroid it's typically lumped into the 'roids discussion as another illegal substance.

So. Ok, this is a list of all steroid users...Currently (?) in baseball.

This means what?

No this is only a list of steroid users that have been connected to one investigation or another (ie. Balco or various other busted distro's). It is in no way a comprehensive list.

It means baseball is dirty as fuck.

The full report PDF is available, the list of names is guys they could really pin down with things like signed checks.

What does it mean? Nothing. Baseball isn't dirtier than football and basketball probably isn't too far behind. It really says more about the public at this point than baseball itself.

Athletes use illegal performance-enhancing substances. News flash.

Actually, according to the ESPN story, steroids were not allowed by the rules, except in cases of a valid prescription for them, which these guys did not have.

Some of the steroids Bonds took were to recover from injury quicker, not just for strength building.

A few names surprised me on the list, and some made me think that there are probably more baseball players ON steroids than not these days.

I have a decade long collection of Topps and Upper deck trading cards. Probably a few thousand worth. I used to be more into baseball than anyone on this board.

Not kidding.

Well... almost anyone.  :awesome_for_real:

I feel like baseball is getting a bad rap because there is at least some effort to come clean. How many football players are not on something? Five?

Why do people care if athletes use steroids? 

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

One of the draws of baseball was that it was still suppose to be the American pasttime sport that hadn't fallen into the professional sports deuchbaggery that all the other pro sports in the world had.  This image was badly hit with the Baseball strike (it was suppose to be about the game, not demanding even more millions than you already make), and it took the damn sport a decade to recover after that.  This is a continuation of that, I believe, because people expect most other pro sports players to be hopped up on steroids, and not precious baseball (considering the evidence in the past, a rather naive view).

While this will hurt, I AM happy they are finally cracking down on it, and hope they continue on to more hardcore policies concerning this.  It can only help the sport, for the fans, its image as a whole, and the actual game itself.

Everybody else just continues on with the status quo.

I might save a couple seconds from the shorter sports segments on news programs.

I skimmed the report and, unless I saw the only stupid parts, it's pretty lightweight.  "Joe Blow didn't talk to me.  Joe Blow didn't answer my written questions.  On page 35 of Game of Shadows, they said Joe Blow did roids in a blue car.  Some people say Joe Blow once rode in a blue car."

The whole steroids issue kind of blows my mind.  I mean, does anyone really think top-level athletes don't take all sorts of things to improve their prowess?  Shit, everyone has known that amphetamine use has been RAMPANT in baseball forhalf a fucking century now.  Plus all the supplements people take to help with strength training.  Nobody cares.  Even aside from drugs - players with 20/20 vision are getting eye surgery to get better-than-perfect-human vision.  Is there outrage that Tiger Woods doing that will violate the sanctity of Jack Nicholas' records?  Not a peep.  But say the word "steroids" and all of a sudden its OMG FOR TEH CHILDREN ITS THE END OF AMERICA !!!111!one!1 

Is it just because "steroids" evokes TEH EVAL RUSSIANS stealing Olympic medals from America's sweethearts?  I swear you could invent something identical to steroids tomorrow, call it "ambianex" or whatever, and people would not give two shits about it - it's just the evil "steroid" word.

Unless, of course, people could use it as an excuse to get Bonds.  Which is pretty much what the steroids in baseball histrionics are all about, getting Bonds.  McGwire had the shit open for all to see in his goddamn locker during his record-breaking season and nobody gave two shits, even after it was reported because he was a lovable, rolly-poly homer king that was friendly with the press.

Lets see....

Effects of lasix = better vision

Effects of steroids = major effects of anabolic steroid use include liver tumors, jaundice, fluid retention, and high blood pressure. Additional side effects include the following: for men shrinking of the testicles, reduced sperm count, infertility, baldness, development of breasts; for women growth of facial hair, changes in or cessation of the menstrual cycle, deepened voice; for adolescents growth halted prematurely through premature skeletal maturation and accelerated puberty changes. Researchers report that users may suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability, delusions, and impaired judgment stemming from feelings of invincibility.

Comparing the effects of lasix to steroids?  Really?  I mean, WHAT?  It's way past absurd right into touching stupidest fucking thing ever category.  The minute that Tiger Woods lasixrages and beats his wife and child to death with a 7 iron, or pulls out a 9mm pistol and shoots a fan/photographer for taking a picture in the middle of a backswing, let me know.

I think you're entire post is missing something.  I'm not quite sure what it is. 

Oh yeah. 

The green color.

Of course they don't have similar side effects.  Also, one of them begins with an "L" and the other begins with "S", which is an equally relevant distinction.

Most people aren't raging that Bonds increased his chance of suffering a reduced sperm count.  Bob Costas and George Will have not been blovating for 5 straight years that Bonds destroyed the moral fabric of America because they are concerned about Bonds' health.  People aren't lobbying to have Bonds banned from the Hall of Fame because he might have an increased risk of high blood pressure.  They are raging and blovating and lobbying because he "cheated" by procuring an unnatural advantage.  If they didn't, they wouldn't be couching their arguments in terms of how Bonds pissed all over Hank Aaron every chance they get (unless they just think Hank will be really, really, really sad if he hears that Bonds suffers from "fluid retention" in 20 years). 

There's also the fact that amphetamine use can have some not-so-hot side effects as well, everyone knows a ton of baseball players have been doing it since at least the 50's, and nobody has ever given a fuck about it.  The outrage isn't about side effects.

(even if side effects really were the source of the outrage about steroids in baseball, I'd take those risks over a lot of shit on this list http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/lasik/risks.htm  Do I want Phil Mickelson man boobs?  Fuck no, but I'll take them over "Some patients lose lines of vision on the vision chart that cannot be corrected with glasses, contact lenses, or surgery as a result of treatment" any day, especially considering "the long-term safety and effectiveness of LASIK surgery is not known" since they haven't even been doing it for 10 years yet)

I disagree with that in some respects in that there is a trickle down effect with youth sports. If roids are seen as the gateway to better performance and high school and younger start emulating things to the detriment of their health, that is a real problem. I know that sounds like a Mrs. Lovejoy "think of the children" argument, but when you have idolized sports figures using such things that are biologically guaranteed to fuck you up, I think you have crossed over into territory where that concept may be legit.

People hate steroids in baseball for the following reasons:

Baseball isn't an endurance sport.
Barry Bonds is the leader in Home Runs.
Barry Bonds is a complete dickhead in the media.
People hate KNOWING that their record-breakers aren't working off normal human conditions.
People hate KNOWING that record-breakers in the modern era aren't trying to hide their usage.
People hate KNOWING that baseball is about money instead of sport, patriotism, and apple pie.

I'm a huge baseball fan. I'm a huge sports fan. This doesn't shock me and I want Barry Bonds thrown in jail. Still, it saddens me that it had to come to this and that it's not even close to over. You think we won't see this in the NFL soon with all the crazy records being broken? You're wrong.

I just want to point out (and I'm not condoning or supporting steroid use) that hitting a baseball on a professional level is incredibly difficult. Steroids cannot increase your eye-hand coordination ability. Personally, when I look at people who have used steroids in that list, such as David Justice or Miguel Tejada, I can't help but remember they were good average hitters. Steroids ischeating, but all of these players were great enough to play in the MLB. I know I wasn't good enough.

I hate Bonds because the Pirates haven't had a winning season since he left the team.  15 years ago.  He deprived me of growing up with a decent baseball team.

Huh... it hasn't been 10 years yet? I'm not going to bother to look it up so guess I'll take your word for it but I had Lasik surgery about 6 years ago now and I know I wasn't exactly on the cutting edge of the shit.

Bonds was just as contemptible as a Pirate. I remember defending him when most of Pittsburgh was bemoaning his strikeout frequency but worse, his penchant for watching home run balls that didn't turn out to be home run balls. And as far as greats that donned a Pirates uniform, he still trails a few others, even with his possession of raw numbers.

* Roberto Clemente - lifetime .500 World Series batting average, an amazing arm

* Willie Stargell - took his team to capture two world series titles, as well as a bunch of NL East division titles,


Bonds never took his team to final victory.

Yeah, lots of people that's not a fair comparison. And yes, that is true for a good player, not a great player. A player that is the best on his team should be able to power his team to a championship, at least once in his career, barring some weird statistical outlier. But Bonds has been on good teams and went to the dance with all the talent to take a title.

Guy next to me in the waiting room lost the use of one eye due to the surgery.  I decided to wear glasses a few more years and left.

I can agree with that. At first I was going to argue Alex Rodriguez, but I'm sure he'll win a championship with NY sometime in the next ten years. Pujols was the first person who came to mind that powered his team (arguably) to a championship.

For me it was probably one of the best decisions I've ever made to get it done. I couldn't be happier with the results.

Before the surgery I was legally blind without my glasses (worse than 20/400), I couldn't really wear contacts because of a severe astigmatism, I had to wear hard gas-permeable lenses which I just never adjusted to. After the surgery I was 20/20 in one eye and 20/25 in the other. It may be slightly worse now like 20/30 in both eyes but I still don't need glasses or contacts. I'll probably have to go in for another round of surgery or start wearing glasses again in 4-5 years, but it will never get as bad as I used to be (I hope).

Im going to have to agree, who cares?

I am still waiting for inmate-thunderdome-randomly-exploding-foot/base-balls-runningman, hour.

Heh.

Apparently a couple people haven't played team sports.

No matter how great a player is, that player isn't the one pitching every pitch of every game, making every infield/outfield play, and batting 1 through 9 in the line up.  That player can be God's gift to the game, and if the rest of the team is average, it won't matter.  Sure, a great player can push a really good team over the edge, by being the final piece in the puzzle.  But a great player won't turn the Pirates into world beaters.

Winning is hard.  Winning championships is harder.  It takes every player performing at top level for the team to perform its best and to win.

Bonds played on some pretty lousy teams during his career.  And up until the Yankees, so did Rodriguez. 

Ugh, and don't EVEN get me started on Rodriguez...I'm too freakin' disgusted at the state of baseball (even before all this) and am likely to go on a rant of epic proportions.

  :hello_thar: Whaaaa? Have you forgotten the Seattle Mariners so quickly when they had Griffey Jr., ARod, and The Big Unit?

That's certainly true and a legit concern. However, I don't think that is what is driving most of the hysteria (but it does frustrated jocks in Congress an excuse to mug for the cameras). I don't think pony-leagures taking speed is great for their health, either (though 95% are probably on adderall anyway because they brought home a B- once).

The FDA link to the risks I posted notes "The first laser was approved for LASIK eye surgery in 1998. Therefore, the long-term safety and effectiveness of LASIK surgery is not known." That surprised me as well. Maybe they were doing it in other contries well before they were approved in the US?


I completely agree.  Especially in baseball, where you get, what, 4 at bats and maybe field 5 balls a game (or pitch every 5th game or so)?  Ted Williams, Ernie Banks, and Ty Cobb never won championships, but I think they are all great baseball players.

I think it's more fair to say that about basketball, where you are 20% of the team and play most of each game. Maybe hockey as well, but that's pretty iffy.  But not baseball or football.


 :cry2:   :cry2:    :cry2:    :cry2: 
We're never going to be good ever again, are we?
:cry2:   :cry2:    :cry2:    :cry2:

Griffey Jr spent a fair amount of time on the DL during that run, if I remember right.  If he could have stayed healthy, and been on some better teams, his stats would be otherworldly.  

Side note:  KGJr has THE sweetest swing in baseball.  Ever.

The Unit was the only pitcher the Mariners had at the time.

They had Moyer too. Man, that's twice in a row. :o

Was thinking about this earlier this morning..

The trickle down effect is that players will take the view that they *have* to resort to using steroids to compete, to have a shot at the show.  And further, when you get to the show, you have to start doing everything you can to stay there, because there is *always* someone waiting to replace you.  So you do whatever it is you have to do to get the edge, because you *know* the person below you is doing it.  

It's a dangerous box, to be sure.  And something needs to be done yesterday.

That was, what?  Early/mid 90's? 

I can't remember what I had for breakfest this morning, much less that part of my life that was filled with beer and boobies and parties and my own college baseball career.

Sorry, Bonds played on some good teams, nearly as much as he played on poor teams. Even the Pirates when he played for them won divisions in 90-92 and contended in 88. With the Giants, likewise.

A great player inspires his teammates and the level he plays at is reciprocated by them to a varying degree.

And Bonds postseason statistics suck.

Yes, I acknowledge the statistical outliers like Ernie Banks or Archie Manning that did play on crappy teams for the entire duration of their career. Bonds doesn't fit that bill.

His HR record is his and I give him that, roids or no roids. But's he still a loser.

I don't know. I played with a few kids in high school who were on track to play professionally. I really don't believe that steroids are trickling down. I will say, and I've witnessed this personally, that there is an increased emphasis on drugs such as Adderall and Vioxx (or whatever the safe arthritis drug is now) instead of HGH. Where the hell would a minor get HGH anyway?

Dunno how old you are, so I have to ask when you played with them?  When I played college ball from '91-'95, I knew *several* guys on our team, as well as other teams that I played summer ball with that were juicing (a decadianabol (sp?) stack and winstrol V were favorites).  I thought about it, to be honest, and the temptation was certainly there.  But I was smart enough to realize the consequences were far greater than the reward.  Plus, I've got mitral valve prolapse and really didn't want my heart to explode - which steroids may or may not make it do, but I wasn't going to take the chance.

As far as getting HGH as a minor?  Heh.  Head down to your local musclehead gym.  Internet.  Take a roadtrip to Mexico.  The coach.

The same type of place they get pot, or coke or alcohol. Somebody knows somebody who knows somebody. The Internet just makes it easier to get now.

It just seemed foreign to me. I played in a region where quite a few players make it higher-up, soz I figured I'd know a little something about it. I see your argument now.

Hell, I could get it for you.  Would take me all of 30 minutes.  You could have it by tomorrow if you wanted to pay the overnight shipping.

Exchange a couple PMs here, <here's my paypal addy>.

Boom.  Done.

"You want a toe? I can get you a toe, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me."

Been kinda having some weird reunions with old faces in the past year. Surprised to see that a good number of them are roiders now (or were sometime during these years of not seeing them). They think they're cool now -- and surprisingly, so do a lot of other people. Heh. I couldn't live like that myself, knowing that I'm a fraud.

Getting steroids in high school was fairly easy.  Finding them as a college athlete was trivial.  HGH is a lot harder to come by as it is pretty tightly regulated.  I think this explains the limited use of it you see in athletes.  The paper trail almost always involves an MD that is a bit touchy about losing their license. 

For the record, I've never used anabolic steroids.  Knowing what I know about their enhancement and limited risk profile, I wish that I had at least given them a try. It would have been interesting to see what effect they would have had. 

Heh (http://jonswift.blogspot.com/2007/12/when-steroids-are-banned-only-cheaters.html)

That guy has an unnatural obsession with guns.

Bob had bitch tits.

(http://www.hot.ee/rihosims/22.jpg)