f13.net

Source (http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/681099/Epic_Fail_Gaming_Failures.html)

Their premise is close, but their references are way-wrong and stupid. TSO and SWG? Really? These games not only preceded WoW by years, they launched when "success" in the genre was measured at a very different level. SWG did not hit the market potential some believed it would, but getting into the 200k range was not a failure at the time when only, what, two MMOs exceded that? EQ1 was king and people were still arguing about the relevance of the L1 numbers. FFXI also exceeded that, but were still arguing how much of that playerbase was in North America.

Also, they're saying the only successful model for games is DIKU. That's fine, except they ignore just how many DIKUs preceded WoW. Dozens, really. Had this been a statement about what type of MMO works in this genre, fine, compare it to the leading examples  other types of games (UO/SWG for sandbox, PS for MMOFPS, idunnowhat for MMORTS).

If you're going to make a tried-and-failed statement, at least draw the right relevances.

Blizzard tapped into the one MMO idea that's fleshed out and could be really executed well (the Diku/EQ model), polished it like a motherfucker, and provided a better license/game world than others have. Doesn't make it a good game to me though. Just a good version of a shitty game.

It'd make more sense to say "every MMO except WoW is a failure" if the goal behind WoW was not to merely distill the experience available in every MMO.  For me, WoW is just another EQ-clone.  It's a good EQ-clone but, when you're as sick of them as I am, WoW does not impress.

So, basically, this is the third reply saying essentially the same thing. :P

It's G4. Epic fail seems to describe them so well.

Sounds like the folks over at G4 should actually try playing at least one MMO before making a comparison.

I see their point.

How many Sims games are there? Star Wars games? Warcraft games? All of those IPs are successes in the single-player/occasional multiplayer genre, but MMOs have the potential to transcend single-player gaming. TSO or SWG could perhaps be considered successes if compared to a single one of their single-player brethren, but they are utter failures when it comes to realizing MMOs' potential. Only Blizzard has made any headway there and that's why they are the MMO success until someone comes along and blows them out of the water.

Yes, World of Warcraft has made Puzzle Pirates such a failure.

Wait, what?

Also, to person above me: WoW made headway at realizing the potential of MMOs... how, exactly?  Financial potential, sure.  Other than that, come again?

I agree. That previous statement is utterly ridiculous. WoW doesnt do anything new that EQ, AO, or UO didnt do. All WoW does is make it much more user-friendly.
If mass appeal = potential for MMOs then sure. They win.  But they dont have reactive worlds that change based on player's actions. Not even close.

It all depends on your parameters of failure.  How many MMOs have been delayed because of the bar Blizzard has set in terms of quality?  That says something.

The AC2 of cable channels has no business judging others.

To this day, I wonder how much of WoW's millions are because it's such a well-streamlined EverQuest.  The Blizzard and Warcraft brand names might have dragged in far more players to even try the game than most MMORPGs would have even had a chance with.  Don't get me wrong, if the game sucked (http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/), it wouldn't have kept those players as well as it did.

G4 are the biggest pack of idiots there are. I still watch, but thats just for Olivia Munn   :thumbs_up:
(http://www.olivia-munn-pictures.com/stills/qdig-files/converted-images/olivia-munn-attack-of-the-show-caps/med_olivia-munn-attack-of-the-show-caps1.jpg)

As far as Wow being the only success? Uh, no... That's like saying every band since the Beatles has been a failure. The first rock band that came along that wrote good songs and didn't kill themselves with amphetamines was destined to be "The Beatles"

Same with MMO's... The first one that came along that could actually keep the servers up, that wasn't run by the online games version of the Anti-Chist (SOE) and had a brand name to attract people was destined to be as successful as World of Warcraft. EQ2 would have KILLED WoW if it wasn't for SOE's Bungling. Same goes for SWG. 

EQ2 and SWG were woefully ugly and badly implemented, respectively. Technical flaws. The gaming populace as a whole doesn't care who SOE is.

I doubt it. EQ2 might have expected EQ numbers, maybe a bit more, but nothing like WoW. They just didn't have the fanbase or potential to draw in those kinds of customers.

SWG... hard to tell. Let's say SWG was magically "better" and "fun" and all that shit... I'd say possible. I have doubts about how many Star Wars fans would translate over to MMORPG fans.

 :awesome_for_real: on this whole thread.


Now THAT is some god damned wishful thinking with a whole helping of "If they.." on the side.

Both games could have been as stable as WoW and still wouldn't have achieved their numbers. Not with the as-launched designs of both games.  EQ2 is a good game today after changing a LOT of shit.  SWG never was complete before they started ripping shit out and changing it, but it STILL wasn't sensible from a few very important design standpoints.*

* Important to most of the folks here? Probably not, but important to the rest of the gaming population who aren't trying to relive some UO experience.   And even more so to the SW fans whose venn diagram doesn't intersect with 'I know who Raph Koster is."

Saying that WoW is the Beatles of MMOs is saying that MMOs have almost peaked. Rock bands may have peaked when MTV stopped playing music videos, but MMOs? Not yet, not by a long shot.

You're both making the point that SOE screwed up, and that was my point as well. There is absolutely no reason they couldn't have hit Wows numbers... specially with SWG. The brand name alone should have sold more than WOW. But the game wasnt done when they released it. And you couldn't fly spaceships at launch? OMGWTF? In a starwars game you couldn't fly a ship?

EQ2 was, without a doubt, a superior game than Wow. The graphics, the mechanics, the mob AI.  But the rules set at release was ridiculous. There was no reason for half the annoying bullshit they put a new player through. Shard recovery for one. Then, on top of that, the servers crashed for a full week about 2 months after launch. A FULL week! The froglok incident, the Exchange servers, the nickel and diming via expansion packs and eq2players, they alienated just about every hardcore player they had. All of whom went to WOW. MMPOGS build audiences through word of mouth more than any other media does. You go where your guild goes. Those guys at work that are always playing that game? You might check it out... All the word of mouth about EQ2 was bad. Very bad. For at least a year after release. EQ2 could have been as big as Wow, but was ruined by SOE. They have turned it around... far too late though.

Whens Steam going to make an MMO? ;-)

That was less SOE's fault than it was Raph's.  It was announced long before launch (I want to say almost a year and a half before, in fact) that there would be no space flight.  But we'd have swordsmen, pikemen and martial artists to go with our crafters.

WTF?

Yeah, see, wrong guy for that game.


If the mechanics were so superior, why'd they change them? Oh right, because they sucked. SOE didn't fuck-up EQ2's design, the design team did.  It was panned because it was horrible AND it ran like shit, not just because it ran like shit.

Again, "if" "shoulda" "coulda" and "woulda" don't matter.  Only was was.  What was sucked, and would have sucked with SOE, Turbine, or even Blizzard using the design documents that were followed.  The games were failures at a design level AND an execution level.

 :roll:

The SOE Austin team ADDED space to SWG. The original SWO didn't have any planned at all. :P

BTW, you try facing SW fans and telling them they can't have their Teras Kasi.

I suppose I should answer with a non-kneejerk SWG reaction. :)

Yeah, this G4 analysis is dumb.

Insert historical data and the time order of releases.

Insert random comments about web-based MMO audiences here.

Insert controversial comments about how much WoW leveraged extant branding and audience.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying EQ2 never had a shot at WoW's numbers, and SWG might have, but I doubt it.

*Ahem*

"Teras Kasi is a bullshit, non-canonical device introduced in a glorified-fanfic novel by a hack author who fancies himself Bruce Lee. It might see the light of day in a future expansion pack, if I feel like it. Now get the fuck off my lawn before I call the cops, I got spaceships to design."

How's that?

I wholeheartedly agree that Olivia Munn is the only thing that gets me to watch G4. That and that spunky Kevin P. Morgan Webb can kiss my ass. She's gotten to the point where she believes her own hype. Patrick and Leo at least had some soul back when it was TechTV.

I'll say it again. WoW wasnt anything spectacular...it was a cleaned up, user-friendly EQ with a bit more focus on casual gaming.
But that doesnt make it the Beatles of MMOs.  MMOs will get a lot better in the next 5-10 years. They'll become more responsive, more story-oriented or they'll go the way of the dodo.

They also need to start leveraging broadband more and stop designing with dialup in mind.

The only constant difference I've ever seen between successful and unsuccessful games, whether mmo or single player, is successful games work at release and unsuccessful games don't. 

What the the hell is a Teras Kasi? Seriously. I'd never even heard of that shit.

Star Wars is about lightsabers, blasters and spaceships. SWG shipped with one out of three of those. It's that simple. Anything else is over-analysis.

LOTRO without Orcs and Hobbits would be an epic failure. Star Trek without phasers, again epic fail. Star Wars without Jedis and spaceships is like a birthday cake without flour and sugar.

The fact that people prioritized Teras Kasi over fucking LIGHTSABERS pretty much says it all. It's like the people who made SWG had no idea what "Star Wars" actually was. Fans might complain about no Teras Kasi but I'm pretty sure they'd complain a lot more about no spaceships and lightsabers.

The initial design was crap for the license. Not crap, but crap for the license. Square peg round hole. At the fundamental level not only is it not Star Wars but it's making a sim game for an action-adventure pulp license.

Edit: I'm reminded of the Penny Arcade comic about D&D. We have dungeons, what about the dragons? Oops, well we got half!

Agreed. I mean all you really had to do was put some rpg behind starwars battlefront + a graphically updated Tie Fighter.

At the risk of derailing farther.. I'm a huge SW fan.  Legos, posters, lightsabers adorn my house and I play "dark side" with my son (his name for Vader) more than we play catch.  I watch the new  movies and enjoy them despite the hate most others have for them.  Han fucking shot first.

Teras Kasi was bullshit introduced in a bland novel and exploited in a "hey fighters are popular" playstation game by Lucasarts.  That's it.  ANYONE who was saying "it needs this generic martial art, not space and action-based combat!" was not the fan you were looking for.   Hell, I even actually enjoyed Rebellion and Force Commander, and if you don't know what that means you're the last person who needs to decide what does or does not go into a Star Wars game.  Sorry.

Teras-Kasi masters were not the problem.  Star Wars Galaxies being a virtual world game was the problem.  People wanted action-adventure, they were given sim-Auntie Beru.  Canon or no, martial artists and their action-adventure undertones were a step in the right direction.

X-Wing did not have lightsabers, and I think it was a perfectly awesome Star Wars game.

I will tell you (because I am right and everyone else is wrong) the elements of Star Wars that were missing from Star Wars Galaxies:

The Galactic Civil War. On ship, this game needed a way for players to participate on either side, with goals and whatnot. What shipped was anemic and unsatisfying. Putting the PvP mostly in Gankzor hands.

Adventure. Missions were a way to grind xp and money. There should have been much more static quests with speeder chases and bounty hunters and suchlike.

The crafting and hairdressing were fine. The lack of space was regretable, but not necessary. The lacking thing was that there was no epic space opera feel to the game. If they could somehow have captured the essence of "rescuing the princess from the Death Star", SWG would have had a much different fate.

With such a large subject matter, this game is RIPE for objective-based PvP that equates to a tug-of-war over who's winning control of the universe.
I knew that SW was being raped with the invention of tonfa lightsabers. That's just an insane reach.

I invite people to head over here if they want to build upon the ashes of SWG. (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=11511.0)

I didn't do it...

I think the market under-esitmated the number of jaded EQ players who were looking for something new and the number of Blizzard fans who would eat anything Blizzard put out. To me is seemed that anyone who was a fan of any Blizz product was a fan of them all and as such when WoW launched all the D2, Warcraft, and Starcraft people flocked to it. The closest thing most of these fans had experienced to an MMO was diablo 2 or the last part of WC3:The Frozen Throne. so giving them WoW is the equivalent of giving someone who smoked a little pot in their time a big fat rock of crack.

 

Its fun not to be challenged.

 

Except after the week it takes you to get max level when your choices are raid, 2/3/5 man duals, or Bombing runs (not as exciting as it sounds)!


this comment only reinforces what I said above, leveling your first character in wow is fun. leveling your 3rd or 4th becuase you've run out of things to do, not so much. Plus there hasn't been anything for 40 men in almost a year, so is this article dated or the writer just mis-informed?

 
Never played Sims online, and the only thing I'll say about SWG that hasn't been said here is that it needed to be set like 100 to 500 years after RotJ, With the catch tag shape the future of the Star Wars Universe. No iconic characters running around and everyone can be jedi if they want.

And people talking about WoW's flawless launch are forgetting the crippling lag is some areas and 1200 person queues. 

Do I smell catass?  I think I do.  :oh_i_see:

<oraclemode>
Let me 'splain.

EQ1 was a breakthrough hit in its day and gathered a sizable number of subscriptions. Perhaps an unheard of number for the time.

WoW tapped a market and brought a large portion of Blizzard's player-base as well as make a game type (MMOG) accessible to more people, thus garnering a sizable number of subscriptions. Perhaps unheard of in the game market, but not in other markets. There are 12.5 million hunters in the United States alone.

Both games are still MMOGs. Nothing special about either. Really.

You want the "Beatles of Online Gaming"? Just wait until the Guitar Hero or Rock Band franchises are taken MMO. Combine that with televised broadcasts of "PvP" or "GvG" or even "RvR" encounters and you have the new American Idol. Except it will be Universe Idol, and we can watch RvR action between the US and China. Who will have the rock band that achieves the title of next Universe Idol? Tune in next season to find out.

I shit you not. It will happen. And if you use my idea, send me a quarter for it. That's all I ask.
</oraclemode>

Would that be easier or harder than telling them they can't be Jedi without being hairdressers first?

With the recent re-vamp to 1-60 leveling in WoW, a week of played time is a generous estimate.  :pedobear:

G4 tried this with their show Arena. Albeit it wasnt Guitar Hero - it was online multiplayer fragfests. And to their credit, they did about as well as you could do with a show like that: hyping up the teams, giving background, following them in FPV, and of course, color-commentary.

But that show = epic phail.

Would a guitar hero battle work better? Now that Ive typed this, I think you might have something there.

A week of /played?  Perhaps.  Of course, that translates to many weeks for most normal people who don't sit and play the game all day.

It was?  I would have to disagree with every point.

If it wasn't at launch, it sure as hell is now.

EQ2 was never a "good" game.  In any aspect.

You're a crazy person. Seek help.

EQ2 started being good around the time that they released PVP servers. It's a better game than WOW now.

The community is awful, however. Weirdest community I've ever seen, anywhere.

You need to explain to me how EQ2 is better than WOW right now.  I could be wrong though.  I tried playing again when Neriak came out and I couldn't get passed level 20 due to awful zone design, awful graphics, awful combat mechanics and a myriad over all silly things.  Though graphics could be considered subjective I suppose.

I should clarify that I don't mean a specialty network. This would be CBS or NBC, whoever made Survivor and American Idol. One of those networks would take this idea and make it a primetime hit for the drooling masses. Not that there's anything wrong with being a drooling mass. In any case, you can quote me on it. The prediction of the show, that is. Not the drooling mass bit.

I wouldn't say better. It's actually a half-decent game now, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Fun thing to do: Go into the general L1-9 chat and start a discussion about the merits of WoW. The hilarity of people decrying WoW as a game for kiddies while playing a game that has less of a death penalty and otherwise is pretty similar in levelling, etc. is something that has to be experienced.  :awesome_for_real:

I swear, I go to other games to try them out, not to compare them to WoW. And WoW comes up in general chat all the freakin' time!

Why is the shitty chat box in HGL a bad thing again?  :roll:

Catasses don't know they're catasses.

You want big, giant, successful game? You admit up-front that the fuckers who will blow through your content in a week aren't important. No matter how fucking hard you make it, no matter how much effort you put into it, they will min/max their way through your content -- often exploiting anything they can find -- in 15% of the time you thought they would.

And they'll fucking BITCH the entire time. And then they'll quit. But they'll quit anyways as soon as the new shiny comes along.

Cater to those fucks and you ruin any chances of actual average players playing your game. Don't design for catasses. Catasses fucking destroy your game. For every fucking catass, there's 20 guys who like to play games but have maybe 10 hours a week and don't really have the time to play more than 2 hours at a time. Cater to those guys. They bitch less, there's more of them, and their money is just as goddamn good.

Aside from being able to peruse the EQ2 forum (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?board=21.0) here, I would suggest we approach this in a different manner as the demand posed is rife with potential for picking apart features for the sake of picking apart features. How about this. Tell us what you like about WoW, and then we can elaborate on whether or not those features are available or how they are implemented in EQ2.

I will start with the few of your stated gripes.

"awful graphics" - Unless you can explain what you mean by awful, I will chalk this up to personal opinion and let's face it, as any basic communications course will teach, an opinion is not an argument. This would put that statement in an "agree to disagree" format that obviates the need for discussion. If you prefer the graphics and style of WoW, then there is no argument in the world that will change your opinion. The same goes for your opinion of EQ2.

"awful zone design" - Please expound upon this. How would you prefer the zones be designed? Are there just certain zones that you dislike? How do WoW's zones specifically compare to the EQ2 zones, other than just "better"?

"awful combat mechanics" - Again, please explain. Are there specific aspects or is it just wholesale dislike?

"a myriad over all silly things" - Hmm. Going to need more information on that.

It sounds to me like you just dislike EQ2. If you really want to discuss it, then let's get down to brass tacks, but it sounds to me like you've already passed judgement and don't really give a care either way.

With out catasses I'd have less forum posts to read and laugh at.

EQ2 and WoW seem to cater to very different gamers.  I enjoy the experience from both but find that they approach the same things differently.  EQ2 is a much deeper game in my estimation and contains quite a few more sub-games.  The zone builds don't feel that different to me.  WoW is full of convoluted zones with walls that appear to be climable but really aren't (one of my pet peeves).  When playing WoW I miss the crafting depth and the collection quests from EQ2.  I also think that EQ2 caters more to the old-school mmo player (less childish humor, less cartoonish look, more linear gameplay, more exploring required, etc).  Both are very good games.  They just don't appeal to the same type of gamer.

WoW is better because I don't have to think as hard, I have to push less buttons and it gives me more shiny.  :oh_i_see:

Im really tempted to go back to EQ2 once I get my new rig. I've done all there is to do in WoW and never thought it was innovative in the least.
EQ2 was much deeper than WoW, even at it's launch. In fact, that was my problem. The player-based economy (9 levels of crafting dependencies? Arcane spell books that were rarer than rare?) was too deep.

But if they've cleaned up how user-friendly it is...and the economy has its footing now...I dont doubt it's a better game for hardcore MMOers.

While I agree graphics are more of a subjective opinion based on style I just don't think EQ2 does well in regards to how they use textures in the environment and NPC models.  Distance rendoring and animations are also very bad in my opinion.  And to give you an idea my rig can run EQ2 on almost full without shadows at around 25-30 fps depending on the population of PCs around me.

Zone design.  Here's my beef with that.  Quest allocation, landscape design, population methods, POI placement are all inferior and not very well done except in some of the newer instances.

Combat Mechanics.  Well I really don't want to explain this, but having to have incredible amount of skills and abilities to be used in an average fight is annoying and wasteful (You can also begin a discussion on class design and redundancies and itemization*).  I feel like I'm playing the piano.  Also the way combat and skill animations work is also not very well done in my opinion.

I'm not a fanboy of any game.  But these things make up the meat of any game and I don't think they're very well done. 

*Itemization is apprently a larger issue with the new expansion.  I can't comment on it since I havn't experienced it first hand.

A few bullet points that I think makes WOW a better game:
Mob scripting in raids.
Better performance graphically.
Addons ability.  Other than reskined UIs.
Better world and zone design.  Logistically and although this is subjective, aesthetically as well.
Class and ability design.
Animations.
Combat mechanics and, for the lack of a better word, flow.
Itemization and how it effects your character.  Min/Max approach.  (Subjective)

Bruce?  :ye_gods:

Just kidding :-)

I was going to post point by point comparisons but decided it wasn't worth it. I played WoW for 3 years, it became un-fun. I am having fun now playing eq2, if that becomes un-fun for me I'll move on to something else. A month ago I would have been waving the flag of WoW, now not so much.

One little hook about EQII beyond gameplay mechanics was that the original cities (Freeport and Qeynos) felt like real cities that people llived in.  You could enter all the buildings, and they were organized like I would imagine a medieval or fantasy city would be).  Residential areas, slums,  commerical areas, sewers etc.  There were also factions in the cities and the illusion of political influence through various quests and whatnot; guards and citizens patrolling and walking around going about their business.  Very well designed.  Sure they were very brown but imo it made them more realistic.

WoW's cities on the other hand were caricatures, very stylish and in line with Warcraft, but hardly spaces  that immersed you or made you beleive for a second that "people" lived there.  

EQ2 at release had problems yes, but it did a fantastic job of setting up your player in the world from the original Isle to your city of choice where from meager beginnings in a cheap room you made your way through the various parts of the city, learning about the various factions and gaining favor with them. The whole Freeport quest line kind of reminded me of some of the city-based D&D  campaigns from days gone by.  From there you went out to explore the world (commonlands  :ye_gods:) where admitedly,  the original game started to lose cohesion and became a bag drive, a problem that is non existant with the game as it stands today.

Im interested in draegan's discussion of skill comparisons. Let's get down to numbers and cumulativeness please.
How many skills or spells or abilities are you having to spam...10% more than in WoW 30% more? Just an estimate?

Are these skills building up to something in the endgame? I guess to me its worthwhile to have a lot of skills necessary to perform a role when you get to high-level play.  It shows the progression of your character while requiring skill and intelligent/strategic thought. Of course that's an idealized description, but hopefully the meaning is clear = more skills that have important roles at higher levels.

If it's just spamming buttons then that's something else altogether.

Once I get my new rig and play EQ2 again, I'll take a month and do an in-depth, side by side comparison

One thing to add: One thing I don't like about EQ II today is that the new starting areas in Neriak (Hate's Evny) and the Sarnak area inTimorous Deep is that everything is squished together to optimize the questing paths like WoW does, which in my opionion discourages "real" exploration and makes the environments seem less realistic. The good news though,  is that you can move through these areas quite quickly to the main adventuring areas.  Other than that it's an outstanding game, definately in my Top 20 from that other thread.

postcount++

EQ2 vs WoW cockfight, take 1,182,403,941,134,553,415,262,405!!!

I had a hella lot of fun with WoW. But after a few years, I realized that I wasn't interested in the Raid scene, or the Battlegrounds grind. That leaves not a whole lot to do with the game. I wish the mid-game was much more robust, but that's not what Blizzard is focusing on now. (See faster leveling to 60 and all that.)

Not really.  Its very rare somebody tries to posit that EQ2 > WoW.

I think we've had more cockfights about how FFXI clearly is visually superior to WoW on every level, those were fun for awhile.

Calling bullshit on you Draegan.  How can you comment on Raid scripting when you couldn't pass level 20? 

I agree with this.  This was one of the few things that I enjoyed about EQ2 visually.  Very well done.  I did enjoy slowly leveling up in them.  It was fun.  Then you get to the commonlands and .. as you said.. :ye_gods:


If you look at some of the scout classes, you have multiple positional attacks.  Each does a varying amount of damage on different cooldowns etc.  I don't have the numbers since I havn't played in 7 months or so, however instead of having 3-5 attacks from the mobs side, why not have 1?  Instead of having 4 backstab skills why not have just 1?  This is an example that can be translated to some degree to almost every archtype.

I'm not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but each class has a shitton of buffs you have to deal with and coordinate since there is a cap to how many you can have activated at once.  But the cherry is that there is no duration which is good.  But I'm not sure why every single class has +stat, +damage buffs you have to activate.  Why not just make them passive and be done with it?

EQ2 to me, just feels like there were many design decisions that were there from the beginning that created to many redundancies. 

Sure you have a point that I don't have first hand knowledge of raid design by playing it, but I've seen it and have heard and talked to people with first hand knowledge.  Can you prove me wrong then?  I wouldn't mind finding out that they have cleverly designed events and mob encounters.  Might make me play in the future when the inevitable bordom of WOW overtakes me again.

I can't comment either way to be perfectly honest - but I am sure nobody is interested in what you have "heard"

I can't give first hand knowledge on raid scripting on WoW vs. EQ.  I had limited raiding experience in EQ2 (only really raided Desert of Flames content) and no raiding experience whatsoever in WoW.

BURN.

Well I through out that comparison and I'm pretty sure I'm mostly right.  I'd leave it up to other to prove me wrong and I'll eat my crow without argument.

SWG has to be considered a failure considering it is SW and should have achieved WoW popularity and success… …as it was, initially and what it morphed into was an absurd example of grafting primary elements from "non-licensed" gamelore onto the SW universe and as previous posters have illustrated, totally ridiculous…

…EQ2 may be termed a "success" depending on what terms of success are defined as. But, one has to acknowledge that compared to WoW, or even EQ1, success it is not…

…but obviously, G4 is trolling or woefully ignorant in this regard, as EQ1 and even UO were MMO success stories long before WoW made the scene…

I've killed everything up to and including Illidan in WoW. what do you mean by scripting? do you mean the RP conversations between main characters or things like randomly targeted abilities, Multi-phased encounters that proceed on a timeline/healthline or Ability X th at needs to be countered with Ability Y.

I was talking about the 2nd one.  Multiphase fights with different abilities actions and counter actions etc. etc.

I'd actually say this was another case of Ad Revenue driving opinion, especially since the last time I was tortured by G4 they had WoW commercials every 10-20 mins.. They also probably love those cel-phone ringtones in an unnatural way too.

As far as this being ignorant or trolling, considering who it's coming from, I'd wager BOTH.

Someplace I have the first AO in game ad screenshots featuring G4 that should prove equally ironic.

The onus isn't on us to prove you wrong. The onus is on you to prove yourself right.

And including shit like, "I haven't gotten past level 20, but my best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris raid 31 Flavors last night, so therefore WoW is better" ain't helping you prove your argument.

It was only one point out of my argument from before so I'll concede it then.  Is there anyone here that raids EQ2 that can enlighten us on how the raid scripting in this game is?

I'm sure WOW stole some fans here or there from other games, most particularly from EQ2, but I don't think it was responsible for any failures--including EQ2s. They failed on their own. I think the only game that really significantly suffered from it was EQ2, which seems to be doing fairly well at least until you start comparing it to WOW.

On why WOW has reached such heights of popularity I think two that haven't been mentioned are low system requirements and bandwagoning.

I certainly feel the bandwagoning call. I have tons of friends playing WOW. There are resources available all over the place. It is in the popular culture. After that first million players, I think WOW grew simply because it was WOW. I mean, Captain Kirk is on my TV telling me to play it. So are the kids on South Park--shame they're more mature than your average PUG.

On system requirements. Are there 10 million potential players with systems capable of running EQ2 smoothly? Bliz lowballed these, made them look fantastic, and opened itself to millions of potential players. I'm constantly shocked at the number of people who are running WOW on laptops or integrated video. This, along with Bliz's rep, was key to opening the Asian market. I never worry about system requirements when recommending WOW to people, but it's one of the first things I'd say about EQ2 (or in its day SWG). I just built a new almost top of the line system (E6750 -- 1333fsb, 8800gts) and I still can't max out the settings on 3 year old EQ2--I'm CPU bound since it's a cpu hog and only uses one core.

Hence the levelling changes in 2.3, the lessening of required rep for heroic keys, the daily quests, the BG/dungeon-of-the-day quests, etc. etc. Blizzard has finally realized that the bleeding edge catasses will indeed never be happy...but they certainly are useful for testing the newest content for normal people - "Can the 'ubers' kill this boss? If so, we'll detune the difficulty in a couple of patches once all the bugs & exploits have been found. If not, we'll retune it in the next patch".

I don't care what anyone says, Sanctus Seru from the Luclin expansion of EQ is the best implementation of an evil city in a MMOG: Spotless, beautiful streets, polite and calm citizens, and lots and lots of guards. More than you'd probably deem necessary, really. Katta Castellium was a pretty decent stab at a 'good' city as well.

/bingo

In fact, I'd add this affliction is killing PC gaming… …I understand that the gamemaker must bump against the bleeding edge, to steal a line from another topic thread title, "to boldly go where none has gone before"… …but insane computer requirements cripple widespread dissemination. Consider, that to keep up playing high end computer games, one must…

* …engage in a continuous upgrade cycle where you spend >$500 per year.

* …spend lots of time installing patches, upgrades, drivers and updates.

* … deal with ridiculously long disc-copy-protection "features", exposing you to a cornucopia of various "logo" splash pages.

Many, including me, say screw it, and are content to play WoW or other games not in the "bleeding edge"…

Another reason for WoWs success beyond the newb friendliness, the low requirements, the marketing budget that was fresh from destroying Neo-Tokyo and the Blizzard/Warcraft fanboyism is timing.

When WoW launched (at least here in Europe) it was the first major MMO to arrive after broadband stopped being a novelty for geeks and hobbyists and started to become mainstream. Before that a lot of people were still connecting via metered dial-up. Suddenly you have a lot of people with fast internet connections and who aren't paying per minute for them who are receptive to something cool to use their new pipe on. WoW was the right game at the right time for a lot of people. Add to that a healthy dose of mainstream media jumping on bandwagons and you get a cultural phenomenon that even people who don't identify with that culture can relate to. My mum doesn't understand cat macros or the Wii but she knows what a Murloc is.

I can somewhat agree on the bandwidth point, but when WoW came out, I had had broadband connectivity for at least 7 years. I'm not so sure that there was a total convergence going on there.

As for mothers and Murlocs, my mother doesn't find MMOGs entertaining in the least, WoW or otherwise (and yes, I have her take a test run on every new one that I play), but she sure as hell loves her some Wii sports. So yes, it is definitely a subculture, both for WoW and MMOGs and for console games.

Yes. EQ2 is far more taxing on hardware than WoW. That is a fact. It is also a fact that WoW was designed, at least initially as expansions may have raised the specs, to run on 800MHz machines with low memory and shitty graphics cards. Thus the use of less polygons and the need for good texturing to compensate for the "blocky" models. Please note: I am not griping. I tested WoW and played it after release as well and even checked out the Burning Crusade expansion. Moving along...

Your statement on zone design is again quite subjective. You say it is inferior, I say it is just not to your liking. We should probably start a new thread over in the Game Design/Development forum (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?board=15.0) here to discuss that in more detail. I like the way zones are handled in both games. I do agree that I disliked the "rails" feeling I got sometimes in WoW zones, but EQ2 has some zones like that as well, so comparatively, that's a wash for me.

As for combat mechanics, I like playing the piano. But again, this is a subjective issue. As you said, we could talk class design, redundancy (has been around since Diku days and before in the form of renaming spells that do the same damn thing across classes - one class has fireball and another has ice comet) and such in the design forum. Once again, it is your opinion so we'll chalk up another there and agree to disagree.

As for your bullet points, I cannot address raiding in either game. I concede better performance due to lower hardware requirements to WoW. This does not make it "better" graphically. Once again, a subjective issue. Art design and whatnot. EQ2's UI does take add-ons as well as reskins and complete XML based remakes. World and zone design, as you stated is subjective and therefore discarded. I believe the animations are also subjective, but as I have done some 3D animation work in the past, I would have to say that both games could be improved in several areas. Neither is pixel perfect in the animation department. Even cutesy dances don't compensate for sloppy work. ;) Combat mechanics and flow and class design would need more in-depth discussion as you make no points regarding either. And lastly, itemization as you stated was subjective, so no point made there.

Overall, I think if you really want to discuss this, we need to start our own threads or join ones already in progress on the topics.

As to your need to concede points where you are wrong, there is no need as you made only one non-subjective point and that is that WoW performs better on older hardware. Hell, even on newer hardware due to lower minimum requirements. Call it a better optimized game engine if you want, but the number of polygons on screen, the advanced graphics options (or lack thereof), the textures, etc. all play a role in determining performance as well. So you don't have to concede that one as you are right.

You made no other points, you simply stated what you think makes WoW better. That's cool with me. There is no need for anyone here to try to convince you that EQ2 is better or to even elaborate upon why EQ2 may have better implementations of some systems than other MMOGs, because you are not interested in playing it or even in discussing it. You have already stated your position and which game you will play and will not leave.

Five "words" sum it up: You think WoW is better.

'Nuff said.

I've finally broken down and decided to get an Xbox 360 -- after years of hating on consoles because I hate console controllers and already had an expensive PC -- because I'm sick of trying to keep up, and I'm not a hardcore gamer.

But I can run games on the Xbox360 that are damn well going to run properly. And that's the long and short of it. I use my PC for WoW and EVE and older games (I just finished KOTOR2).

This is quite true.  Everyone has their own opinion and I'd enjoy a more indepth discussion about class mechanics and combat mechanics in another thread.  In the end you can't scientifically prove (other than hardware benchmarks) which game is better.  I have my opinion and you yours and thats why we're posting in a forum.  But if I were to play (and I am to a degree right now) play armchair developer, I would take the mechanics etc etc of WOW over EQ2.  But you can't quantify "feel" for games.

I miss the days of EQ vs UO. Those games were actually different.


Audition plays upon this a bit. Sorta of a memory/follow-me overlaying music to give it a beat. I contend that most of what makes GH so great is the instrument itself. An MMO requiring an instrument? Maybe, but not really sure about that.  It's otherwise a relatively simple repetitive action/reaction experience (testament to how any game can be distilled to some sanitized statement that doesn't convey why it's so damned popular... ie, any WoW-is-just-EQ1-better counterpoint).

Darniaq:  1
Entire EQ2 versus WoW tangent:  0

What would we argue now? WoW vs. EvE?

Probably WoW v Bejeweled. Or maybe TF2.

 :awesome_for_real:

TF2 wins hands down.

I don't think it's advertising dollars that's warping G4's opinion. (Advertisers don't really control the media; if you lose one advertiser, you can find four more to replace them...unless your sales people suck of course.) I just don't think G4 has an opinion to begin with. They see WOW doing well, and in their ignorance, they assume everybody else is doing poorly. They probably don't know what UO or EQ are. They just think WOW is big with their imaginary target audience (how do they put it, the "iPod/YouTube/MySpace generation?") so they slam SWG because they think it's the hip thing to do.

Kinda sad. It's like a smelly nerdy kid wearing heavy metal T-shirts and saying words like "groovy" and "radical."

Now I have to change my style.  :cry:

P.S. Get back to work, slacker.

Wow. Just Wow. this quote tells me you know fucking nothing about Star Wars. Add it to that.. thing that you shipped and, well...

But JTL was planned even before SWG launched. I still remember the "it's like Deus Ex in space" conversation from here (or was it Waterthread #1, 2, 5?).

Otherwise, I agree with Slyfeind on the article. There's no motive to push advertisers. They just don't know what they're talking about and are too lazy to go learn it.

Have you even watched a Star Wars movie? Did you want them to make fukkin' Earth and Beyond and call it Star Wars? Mega-Sheesh...

All it had to be was Battlefield + Wing Commander. That shit writes itself. Nuff said.

It's pretty amazing that someone actually thought it should be something other than that though.

Why should I pay a monthy fee for Star Wars Battlefront?

Never said you had to!

My only point is that out of all mmo licenses, that one was pretty straightforward. Unlike, say, the Star Trek stuff we've talked about in the other thread..

You know you're pretty spot on about that.  Even a smattering of stats with some objective based PvP and a basic trading economy would be enough to make it worth a persistent world.

They should have done it WW2O-style where you fight campaigns and eventually one side wins and the game resets.

"Yeah, right now we're on Yavin, but since we weren't able to destroy the shipyards at XYZ Coords last week, the Imperials are hitting us so hard I don't know how much longer we're going to hold out here. We'll have to start retreating to Hoth soon, probably a week or two quicker than we had to last time. I think the key is putting a hurt on shipyards so they can't bring so many vehicles to Yavin this next time. If we get them in the forest and fight man to man we'll be able to do much better.

3rd/1st person combat with vehicles. Steal as much from BF*, Planetside, WW2O, Wing Commander, and Privateer that you have to.

so.. you're defending the inclusion of hairdressers and teras kasi vs no space battles and calling me on Star Wars knowledge?

get a fuckkin' clue.



QFT

Yea I am.  :angryfist: Space battles weren't the only thing in the Star Wars movies, and just adding them didn't save the game. (JTL could not prevent the hemmoraging of accounts due to the CU and NGE...)

The "What SWG should have been" thread is this way... (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?action=post;topic=11503.70;num_replies=102)

replied over there. also, SC, your link is broken.

This is going off topic a bit but I've always been curious about this.  I would think that the large majority of SW fans (maybe like 90% even) have no clue what a Teras Kasi is.  I personally had no clue what it is and I'm a huge star wars fan.  Even now I only know it's some sort of combat form that was available in game.  Did you guys consider this (ie basically book fans vs movie/game fans) in development?  I'd be interested to know what thoughts you all had after considering the situation.

These are not the SWG threads you are looking for ::waves hands mysteriously::