f13.net

So, like many of you here I'm putting together a new rig as well.  I've got almost everything nailed down, but after seeing a couple of you post about buying the Q6600 processor I started doing a lot more research into it.

I'm trying to decide between buying a Core 2 Duo (E6750) and the Quad Core (Q6600).  The Quad has a lower FSB, but is supposed to be easily Over-clockable and is able to handle particle effects better… however, the Core 2 is lower cost (which is nice) and has a higher FSB non-overclocked; but doesn't handle particles as well (which may be a truly relative statement considering what it can do).  Le sigh… I've been doing research for two+ weeks and everything is pretty much saying “pick what you like”.  Bleh. 

I'm looking for advice from the group here and what were the reasons for those of you buying one or the other.  I plan on using this system for three or four years, primarily for gaming.  The most multitasking I'll be doing is running multiple instances of Explorer while using Excel/Word at the same time. 

Then lastly, if you have any idea on the effects of long-term, low end, overclocking on MB's and processors I'd love to hear that as well.  Most of what I've found is information about highly overclocked machines and durability. 

I was in the same boat as you and decided on the 6600 quad for really one reason:

There do exist a few games and a few game developers that support more than two cores.  It's not prevalent at all, but it's there enough that I felt silly not buying with that in mind.

It was enough for me.  The lower FSB doesn't effect a gaming system as much as a lower clocked Vid. card would.

Basically it comes down to, would you rather spend the $80 difference (if it's still that) and get a better vid card?  If this is the case, go w/ the E6750 and get a better vid. card or more RAM.  If you have the budget, go w/ the 6600.

Hell, either way, make sure you get a future proof mobo (like the one Trippy suggested to me in the other thread, its awesome!) and you can always upgrade later.

So far, my Q6600 has not made a big difference.  It does run games quite stably and at a decent clock speed even if they don't support multiple cores.  Somehow, its 2.4 Ghz processor speed translates to something faster in single core games - better architecture?  Offhand, the biggest difference I've seen is in Supreme Commander.  I can run about 1,500-2,000 units before noticing any slowdown at all.  I couldn't tell you about comparing this to a Dual Core because  I jumped straight from a P4 3.6 Ghz.

I bought the Q6600 because it was a super good deal. That was pretty much the only reason. It does do video encoding much faster. I haven't really played games very much on it. However, the Havok physics SDK (they were just bought by Intel) is used by a lot of games and it supports multicore. I'd say all of the middleware people have already or are going to support as many cores as they can because it's a selling point for them.

Anandtech (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3127&p=7) has an article which claims Unreal 3 runs a little bit faster with 4 cores vs. 2 cores.

For gaming at the moment it's better to get a faster (clock speed-wise) Core 2 Duo than a slower Core 2 Quad. By "handle particles as well" I'm assuming you are referring to the Source engine particle tech demo which does show much improved performance on quad cores but that's just a tech demo and is one of the very few gaming-related things that can take advantage of quad-cores right now. As was the case when this question was about single-core versus dual-core/CPU the main reasons for moving to quad-core is if you are running multiple CPU-intensive applications simulatenously or are running CPU-intensive multi-threaded apps that can take advantage of arbitrary number of CPUs like some rendering programs. My next CPU will be a quad core because I do enough video transcoding/rendering that it's worth it for me.

For overclocking if you aren't boosting any of the voltages then the long-term risks are minimal. If you are boosting voltages then you'll need to worry more about heat management.

There is some architecture in place that allows for multiple cores to act as a single virtual core for programs that have not been optimized for multi cores.  This is what allows those 2.4 ghz core 2 duo's to compete against pentium 4 3.2ghz procs on apps that do not natively support multi-processor architecture.  The ability to combine multiple cores into a virtual single core is also one of the big leaps in tech between the pentium D and the core 2 duo.  I seem to recall reading somewhere that this is also an area where Intel is lagging behind AMD a bit and they are actively trying to overtake AMD in this area.

No that's not what it is. Just like the Athlon 64 (single-core) the Core (single-core) can do more "work" per clock cycle than the P4 architecture.

You also get a small boost from offloading some OS overhead to the second core, as well as anything else that's running and chewing up CPU (like having a browser or MP3's going at the same time).

--Dave

Thanks everyone.  Provided no one sees any glaring holes in this system... this is what I'll pull the trigger on tomorrow.

 

1   Antec Performance One P180B Black 0.8mm cold rolled steel for durability through the majority of chassis 1.0mm cold rolled steel around the 4 x HDD area ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
Model #: P180B
Item #: N82E16811129017
$129.99     

2   Link Depot 3 ft. SATA II WITH LOCKING (90 degree) cable Model SATA2L-3-UVB - Retail
Model #: SATA2L-3-UVB
Item #: N82E16812189143
$7.58 

1   ASUS P5K-E LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Model #: P5K-E
Item #: N82E16813131225
$141.99 

1   BFG Tech BFGR88768GTXOC2E GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail
Model #: BFGR88768GTXOC2E
Item #: N82E16814143093
$569.99
 
1   PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750 Quad (Black) EPS12V 750W Power Supply - Retail
Model #: Silencer 750 Quad BK
Item #: N82E16817703009
$169.99 

1   Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 Conroe 2.66GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6750 - Retail
Model #: BX80557E6750
Item #: N82E16819115029
$194.99 

1   Kingston ValueRAM 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model KVR800D2N5K2/2G - Retail  - Not the actual RAM I am using, just a place holder.  I've got the RAM already.
Model #: KVR800D2N5K2/2G
Item #: N82E16820134117
$65.99 

2   Western Digital Caviar SE WD5000AAJS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: WD5000AAJS
Item #: N82E16822136178
$199.98 

2   LITE-ON 20X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model LH-20A1L-05 - OEM
Model #: LH-20A1L-05
Item #: N82E16827106073
$63.98 

1   Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer 7.1 Channels PCI Interface Sound Card - Retail
Model #: 70SB073A00000
Item #: N82E16829102006
$79.99 

1   Microsoft Windows Vista 32-Bit Ultimate for System Builders Single Pack DVD - OEM
Model #: 66R-00765
Item #: N82E16832116213
$179.99 

1   Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound - OEM
Model #: ARCTIC SILVER 5
Item #: N82E16835100007
$5.99 

1   ARCTIC COOLING Freezer 7 Pro 92mm CPU Cooler - Retail
Model #: ACFZ7-PRO
Item #: N82E16835186134
$24.99
 
Subtotal: $1,835.44

On the particle thing I was actually referring to a couple of articles I've read mentioning that multiple cores can handle physics and particle variation/effects quicker and easier due to being able to spread the load; specifically referencing to the way the PhysX card does the same thing.  This is probably only for those programs that have the drivers/software written to do so however. 

8800 GTX Still doesn't make sense. $200 for nothing.

The new G92 8800GTS should roll out on like Dec. 3rd and everyone fully expects them to beat the GTX @ $350.

My thinking behind that is in two years, I won't be able to upgrade to the performace improvement of a GTX for less than $200 bucks.  I'm willing to be conviced, but I'm banking on the future with that choice.

Damnit.  I hate waiting...

1.  That case is money, the right angle SATA cables are nice too for docking w/ any ports on the edge of the mobo, I have nothing to say these days about Mobo's I really can't figure out what's good and what's not.

2.  Giving $570 for a vid card is really too much imo, also giving that much to a manufacturer I've never heard of?  I hope you read some reviews specific to that exact board.

3.  If your building a $2k rig you really ought to SPLURGE on the PSU, I recommend a Seasonic, those are fucking noice.

4.  I remember hearing bad things about Lite-On at one point, would a Sony or something cost you that much more?

5.  Fuck Vista, for real, me no likey, why are you going Vista out of curiousity?  Do you not have XP lying around while you wait for Vista to suck a little less?

If you haven't heard of BFG then you shouldn't be giving advice on vid cards.

BFG is pretty fucking quality.  Limited Lifetime Warranty on all their cards.  The "limited" part is kind of a joke too.  I've never even read of them turning down a warranty return.   

The DVD drives are a placeholder.  I've got two drives already, Samsungs.  I was too lazy to hunt down the actual model. 

I did a lot of research on the PSU.  That one I've got in there is actually rated at 850, but has an average output of 750.  I'm not sold on the lots of rails idea yet and the one I've got up there pushes a consistant 60 amps.

I'm going Vista for the same reason I'm looking at a baby-eater of a Vid card.  I've got to be there eventually.  I've personally used Vista business and the Premium versions (one a lot, and the other only some) and I'm not too put off by it.

I believe they even honor the warranty if you give away/sell the card, most other manufacturers have an original owner only clause in their "lifetime" warranties.


I have the PC power and cooling 510 and it's main (only?) drawback is it is 1 noisy PSU.  you don't really need 750 watt output in a machine unless you are planning on a large HD array (even if you run SLI).  I would look for something quieter and I believe PC Power and Cooling has recently released a "quiet" line of PSU's.

The Corsair high-end powersupplies are made by Seasonic also. And they are aweeeeeeeeeeeeeesome. Got one in my new comp.

Seconded. I picked up the 750W one and it's glorious.

I stick with my comment about $570, your right though I don't know every single fucking video card manufacturer.  But neither do I ever claim to be giving out some kind of sage on the mountaintop advice.  Just what I know from building every rig me or my family members (outside of my estranged mother and her alienware abomination) has used since the mid 90's.  Which isn't shit, I still consult with the same sites as everyone else when gearing up for a build.  So mostly I'm just sharing my brandname prejudices.

Thanks for being a snarky fuck though, was really great of you to pipe up.

If you're looking for immediate performance then sure, a higher end Dual Core might be a better way to go.  However, in the long run a Q6600 will perform better when multiple core support becomes common.  In the meanwhile, it actually does similarly and sometimes better (http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=871&model2=875&chart=422).  Combining decent current-day performance with superior future performance for an under $300 price tag, it's pretty clear to me that the time to make the jump to quad is now.

Jesus. You could've just accepted that you don't possess Trippy-like knowledge of hardware. I was under the impression that EVGA, BFG, and XFX were pretty much the end-all, be-all of video card manufacturers. Perhaps I was wrong. However, Salamok does have a point, it does seem odd that you didn't know what BFG was.

I also own two BFG 7900GSes. They were worth every penny I paid for them last year on black friday, and would highly recommend the brand to anyone building a new PC.

Also, most places I have read (when I was scoping out reviews of hardware when I built my last rig) advised against skimping on PSUs. Not sure if this applies to the brand of your PSU, though.

Cheers, and good luck. Constructing your own rig is quite rewarding. The first 3dMark score is fun. :D

I was going to say something about BFG being a huge name also... :awesome_for_real: but I was on a smoke break from work.

Because you can't spell snarky without an s.....child.

the line between usefully cynical and snarky fuck can get blurry at times, my bad  :awesome_for_real:

edit: forgot the smiley

So yeah, wiping my ass with 100 dollar bills, as Bob put it, seems to be what a 8800 GTX would be.  Thanks for the constructive criticism on that, it got me to do more research.   :wink:  If that fucking 8800 GT ever gets in stock I'll buy it.  Bitches, build more. 

/em strokes his GT,"My precious...."

Your power supply is an EPS one, not an ATX one -- you'll need to make sure your motherboard can handle the connectors. You also have to make sure the length of the connectors are long enough to work in that case.

I'd get a better CPU cooler and don't forget the extra case fans.

PC Power & Cooling is a respected brand in the PSU market.

That case is ATX form-factor, I know because I built a machine in it this year..

I've never handled a non-ATX PSU so I'm not even sure what that'll look like.

The Q6600 I got from Dell has a BTX form factor w/ only ~375W. It's uber quiet.

I thought EPS PSU's were 100% ATX mobo compatable?  Isn't EPS 24 pin really an ATX 20pin with an additional 4pin connector that you have the option to connect if your mobo requires it?

edit: nm I am confused, I bought my ATX PSU with a BTX adapter, the same can be done for EPS but I am not sure if an adapter exists that goes the other direction (downscaling).  You could probably make one with limited electronics skills by just cutting the ATX connector off of your old PSU and splicing it in, PSU pinouts are always very well documented.

I've got a GTX, but I also built back in Feb. GT sounds like the way to go. Anyone know if they're dx10.1-compat or don't those parts exist yet  :roll:

Fucking Microsoft.

What's the difference between dx10.1 and dx10?

.1 and obsolescence.

It should be okay.  The PSU has a 24-pin Main Power connector and the MOBO has the same... the PSU has both 8 and 4 pin MOBO plugs as well.  It looks like the board can handle either 8 or 4 pins.  Is there something else I should be looking at?

I've got a pile (10 or so) of extra 80mm fans left over from a few builds I did two years ago.  I plan on using a few of them as needed.  I'm curious about the CPU cooler though.  I was under the impression that the one I picked out was fairly decent.  I'll admit, I don't know a whole lot about newer coolers though.  I looked at few from Zalman, but didn't find any reviews (on the ones I looked at) that were very glowing. 

I'm not clear on the difference between EPS and 24 pin ATX.  There used to be 20 pin ATX and then there was 24 pin ATX (though you can plug 20 into 24, all the extra pins did was spread the load).  Is EPS just 24 pin ATX and an extra 4 and 8 pin connector?

edit (brought to you by wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX)):

Dude.  You are my hero.  Thanks.  For some reason I always forget about wiki.

FYI I'm 90% sure that case runs 120mm case fans, I believe 3 or 4 of them.  I just built a rig using one of these this year...

***

Because I don't want to be wrong twice in the same thread:

The main difference is that Microsoft is moving towards standardizing the features a card must support if it says it supports version XXX. In the past a card could be "support" a certain version of DirectX but be missing various features like how you have Pixel Shader 2.0 and 3.0 but both are part of DirectX 9. In theory this should make it easier for the programmers since they don't have to "enumerate" the features of every DX10.1 (and beyond) card and then write all sorts of conditional code to handle all the different feature permutations out there.

80mm fans are noisy. Get some quiet 120mm ones (the case should come with one already).

For CPU cooling the benchmarks right now (in no particular order) are the Tuinq Tower 120, Thermalright Ultra-120, and the Scythe Ninja (paired a 120mm fan). Zalman used to be one of the benchmarks except that they've been screwing up their coolers recently with crappy noisy fans that are incredibly difficult to replace with quieter ones. If you don't care about noise at all they still work really well but there are other coolers that work as well or better and are quieter (like the above 3). The Ninja is particularly interesting in your case cause in theory with a low power usage CPU and the CPU socket in the right place you could "passively" cool it with just the top rear fan and the top top fan but I wouldn't recommend doing that with your CPU.

Are there any games out yet that even support dual cores let alone quad cores? At least I haven't played any (but then again I don't play that much). The only thing I've found where quad cores really shine is compiling.

Yes there are games that support two cores/CPUs.

Uhm, aren't you getting a Antec Performance One P180B? Those only take 120mm fans.

Here are a bunch of actual game benchmarks w/ quad vs. dual core. Not really much difference so far even on the games running Havok physics.

Supreme Commander:
http://www.behardware.com/articles/660-3/supreme-commander-benchmark.html
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2107342,00.asp

Supreme Commander & BioShock:
http://techreport.com/articles.x/13375/5

Other games:
http://techreport.com/articles.x/13375/4
http://techreport.com/articles.x/12210/3
http://techgage.com/article/intel_core_2_quad_q6600/6


And here's the list of Havok games:
http://www.havok.com/content/blogcategory/29/73?platformid=7

Firsthand, I can say that a quad core makes a big difference in Supreme Commander, once you have over 1000 units or so. 

Aside from that, not too much difference.  It is interesting how close a 2.4 Ghz Quad comes to a much faster base core Dual in single-core games, though.

The press embargo on AMD's quad-core Phenom CPU has been lifted and reviews are being published at the various hardware review sites for those that are interested. Q&D summary is that they are still not competitive MHz for MHz with the Core 2 but they are priced lower to compenstate and they will work in AM2 motherboards (assuming the BIOS has been updated to support them) so you don't need a socket/chipset upgrade like you often do when moving to newer Intel CPUs.

Jeezus, finally a semi-smart move by AMD. I was honestly worried the company was going to go belly up.

The case looks to be loaded up on all the Fans it can handle right out of the box.  I've got a pair of 120mm Fans that I still haven't used as well, but I was hoping to use up some of those damn 80's I've got.  If I need to I'll take a dremel to that case (I hope not, cause it's kinda sexy looking) and clear some extra fan spots.

Dude, the case (I have it sitting here in my office, its my work machine now) uses up to 5 120" fans (it comes with 3, I believe). Please, for the love of all that's holey, don't start cutting out holes in the side of the case for a few more fans.

I'll chime in on the side of not mutilating that beautiful case (which I also have) for 80mm fans. Fans are dirt cheap, cases are not. 80mm fans are too noisy, use 120mm (with variable speeds). I also use the revB scythe ninja, it fits in the case decently and keeps things nice and cool with a 120mm fan applied.

Only changes I made were moving the lower chamber fan to the front side to accomadate my long PSU and I took out the upper drive cage to install an intake fan in the front to help keep the 8800 cooler.

I don't PLAN on cutting holes in the case.  I'd rather not.  Like I said, it's sexy.  I've got 120's as well.  All should be golden.

Parts are on the way... except for the Vid Card.  Some bastard bought it out from under me while I was finalizing my order.  Shitty fuck, that's no good.  Bob's post build report makes me feel good though. 

More Questions.

I haven't bought a mouse in awhile, but what the fuck happened to the ring finger button?  I love that button on my current mouse.  I've been looking at buying a new mouse and everything seems to just have the double-thumb button on the right side, plus that rocker button bullshit.  If I can't map it to a new function... then it's not a fucking button.  Don't count it in your description. 

I'm currently looking at this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104076) or this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826153003) or maybe this...  (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826100001)

I haven't used anything other than my MS Optical for close to five years, so I'm really in the dark as to what the feel of a new laser mouse is like.

I like my new Sidewinder. Particularly since I have big hands.

Otherwise, get the Razer.

Are you refering to this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826105074) one?

I've got fricken meat hooks for hands.  A larger mouse usually fits me better.  Has the ring finger button really gone away?

The third plain mouse button went away years ago duder. Though the sidewinder is big enough that you could probably use the middle finger on the wheel mouse (it clicks really nicely) and the ring finger on the right click.

Fuck balls. The ring finger button is perfect for push to talk in FPS games. 

On the sidewinder, I use one of the perfectly placed metal buttons on the side.

The "ring finger button" is the right mouse button. What's gone away is a proper middle button, now replaced by a scroll wheel which you can click but doesn't have the responsiveness as a proper button as it takes way too much force to push down on and you tend to scroll it at the same time. I miss the days of proper 3 button mice having spent a lot of time working in X-Windows-like environments in my youth. Using the keyboard to copy and paste is so inefficient. I can "fake" it right now by using a mouse with a scroll wheel that "tilts" left and right and mapping the tilts to the middle mouse button but that still doesn't feel the same as having three proper buttons.

Dude I had almost forgotten about proper 3 button mice, thanks for friggen reminding me!  I would have been far happier if they had placed the scroll wheel mechanics in the thumb position and left the middle button alone.  Usually when I am scrolling I am not doing any other button clicking so the distraction of having to move my thumb from it's natural rest position wouldn't be as noticable.  Not sure about the rest of you but when I am gaming the thumb tends to play a critical role in moving/positioning the mouse quickly & accurately as such I don't use the current buttons available to it for anything that requires even the tiniest bit of twitch.

That aside I use a logitech MX1000 and love it but I think it has been discontinued and the replacement model doesn't seem as sturdily built.  This is a larger mouse and good for big hands.

should patent the thumb activated scroll wheel + return of the center button!

I loved my 3-button logitech back when I was playing UO in the late 90s. Set the middle button to dbl-click. Win.

All the parts for my new system finally arrived.  Case requires no modification, it's a sexy beast and performs like a champ; side note, my rig is heavy as fuck now.  Much heavier than any of my previous systems.  I went with the Tuniq for the cooler and it also does an amazing job. Thanks for all the help everyone.

CoD4 = Digital sex for me right now.    :hello_thar: