f13.net

I just finally got around to trying the H3 beta tonight (even though I've had Crackdown for weeks), and I'm really very underwhelmed by it.  Of course, I don't really like run and gun FPSes in the first place, but this just feels really vanilla.  To hear people talking about the first two you'd think Halo would all but suck your dick...  I'm not seeing anything inspired in this game at all.  It's just doing what a ton of other games have done, and continue to do much better.

Am I missing something, or is it just that as usual, the world is filled with mongoloids?

I think it was that Halo 1 was the first pretty good FPS on the X-Box, and since there was no competition, it was made out to be the bee's knees. Hype and marketing > Halo 2, and again > Halo 3. The fact that MS used some big $ to sell it from the start also helped.

I mean, I've got the first one on PC, I never really played it though. It was ok, but it's no HL2.

Shit, if you're into run and gun, I can point to countless better games, many of which have been on consoles: Half-Life 2, Quake, Unreal Tournament, Doom, Tribes, Far Cry, Gears of War, etc...

There is nothing special about this fucking game.  Talk about useless hype...

ETA:  It doesn't even have the saving grace of great graphics.  When I say vanilla, I mean it.  This thing could have easily come out on the first XBox.  It doesn't look anywhere as good as even HL2, and that game's over 2 years old.  When you've got MS bucks behind you I'd think you'd hang your head in shame for putting out something this subpar.

As i said, I think the first Halo was the first really good/popular/successful popular FPS on the X-Box, and much of the success since has been a result of well-done franchising and consumer loyalty.

See, Halo came out on console before those other titles you're going on about, or at the very least, most of them.

There's nothing special about any of the Halos.

I don't expect Halo 3 MP to be more fun than Shadowrun or Lost Planet MP.

If you ever get a chance, the story told in I Love Bees is heads above anything Bungie has put out. Bungie should've hired that crew to write all of the Halo stuff.

Halo's got a decent storyline to it and solid (though not exceptional) gameplay. When it first came out that made it one of the best console FPSes and MS used it as a system seller with big bux. Yeah fan loyalty is a big part of it, I think Bungie's done a good job of creating characters and a world that people care enough about to look forward to finding out what happens next, keeping the gameplay solid means people can continue to enjoy MP without having to get to learn anything new or too complicated. Works well for the Madden crowd, which I'm guessing transfers to good unit sales.

I agree that it's really not impressive in any way when compared to newer FPSes but that's not necessarily what a lot of console owners want. They want Halo not some new fangled thing that they didn't play the hell out of and have a great time with back in the day.

if we're talking about multiplayer FPS, Unreal Tournament predated Halo by 2 years. Looked a hell of a lot better. And played a HELL of a lot better.

There is no doubt in my mind that Unreal 3 will be the best straight multiplayer FPS of this generation. Unless Enemy Territory turns out to be the cat's pajamas.

Halo was teh awesum.  Halo 2 not so much.  I think the reason Halo was so great was that you could have up to 16 folks playing deathmatches, etc.  With Warthogs, Ghosts and Banshees flying above.  I can't remember ANY game for the XBox that also featured this so early in the XBoxes life. 

Most of the maps were cool, the weapons reasonably balanced (except for the pistol) and the graphics were good for the time.

You get 8 guys playing Halo in the same room, that is manly trash-talking heaven.

To even name a main character "Master chief" should be punishable by death.

That's his rank. It makes perfect sense.

It's an E-9 in the US Navy it's short for Master Chief Petty Officer.  In other words he is a future version of a SEAL.

Ah, I guess it makes sense since people generally refer to others in terms of their rank in the military. Still would've preferred a name  :-P

Halo was pretty good for a console shooter, it had some story, some vehicle use, and it was fairly easy to play but it owes most of its success to good timing and marketing.

Does anyone have some info on Enemy Territory?  It comes out in a couple weeks and I'd like to know if it's worth buying.  If it's a better, less buggy version of BF2 I would be happy.

One of my main concerns, from watching the gameplay videos (http://youtube.com/watch?v=_cXN12Y1y44), is that the objectives are too complex and will only be able to be executed by clans.

Edit: Added link to video of a mission tutorial.

With a name, it wouldn't be a surprise when they bust off the helmet and Chief turns out to be an alien or a super hot chick.

Yar. I worry about that too. But there will be traditional playstyles for people who like 2v2 and shit. So I'll have to pick it up either way. I'm sure a demo will drop 2-3 days before release.

You mean like http://www.gametrailers.com/umwatcher.php?id=57998 (http://www.gametrailers.com/umwatcher.php?id=57998)

I'm looking forward to the soundtrack.

Any FPS without mouse/keyboard = pain to me.

I never played the Halo games (as I don't have an Xbox) but I always figured from what I heard about 2 being pretty crappy in relation to the original has to do with the environment it was developed in.

Halo was originally being developed by Bungie as a somewhat traditional PC FPS with some new takes on a few aspects of the game. Then MS bought Bungie out as the game was more than half finished and made it an Xbox first title. After that the devs were no longer working for a small game company that could do interesting things, they were working for M$ where spending money on marketing to keep printing money with the same formula was more cost effective than spending the money making and testing something edgy that might or might not work.

It was also the first successful FPS that was tuned from release to be playable on a console. Most previous titles were ports of games that had been kb/mouse oriented.

But, of course, I could be totally off base.  :-D

I thought MS bought them out after Halo 1 killed in sales.

Microsoft bought Bungie before Halo 1 was out. It was published by Microsoft Game Studios.

I highly doubt Microsoft hampered development on the series in any way whatsoever.

Actually, when Halo was announced at Macworld, it was originally going to be a 3rd person, squad based shooter.

I tried really hard to like the beta.  But, after years of Quake and DoD, the gameplay just seems dated and boring.  It's as slow as molasses, gunplay is uninspired, and the graphics are lackluster.  Seriously, Halo 3 beta feels like a beefed up Quake 2 mod.  No shit.

Don't get me wrong.  I love me some Halo single player.  Co-op will probably be fun as well.  The multiplay is boring as hell though and the hype surrounding it is mystifying.

Even now, I still read it as "Master Chef".



When is U3 due out? And I also look forward to the ET as a better Battlefield 2142 (which I've so far avoided).

Halo was the first 1st person shooter I actually enjoyed on a console... until I was forced to do the library level over and over and over and over.

I never even tried Halo 2. Anything I've seen of the 3rd one makes me think that trend will continue. It's too bad because I actually don't mind playing FPS on consoles.

I never understood the allure of Halo, although I've only played it on the PC. I often have arguments with a guy at work who claims it's one of the best games ever, but he's an XBox/Microsoft fanbois so I guess the whole best-FPS-on-a-console angle makes sense. The only (very minor) validating quality of the game for me was the physics on the vehicles, but otherwise the weapons and enemies made only for monotonous drudgery. The interface is unresponsive and often felt like Master Chief had a few drinks while on some serious painkillers. Considering the popularity of Gears of War, I've always been interested to know how they made FPS fun on a console without the control and accuracy of a mouse/keyboard interface.

lol, that Haloid video was great.

The only reason Halo stands out among FPS' is because of Marathon. If not for the Marathon tie-in, it'd be just another FPS with multiplayer gameplay we first saw in DOOM then perfected in Quake. Needless to say, I have no interest in the multiplayer part of Halo (I still play Quake via Darkplaces).

However, the storyline as it relates to the Marathon games--particularly Infinity--is what interests me and I wait with bated breath to see what Bungie has wrought. Full campaign storyline coop better be in the frigging game.

And furthermore, if you haven't played Marathon you're a bloody heathen. Go download the Aleph games and learn something (yeah, it's retro, so what?).

I will be buying Halo 3 for the Coop story mode only. I doubt I will ever even play death match of capture the flag.

Halo's success has nothing to do with Marathon. 99% of the people who buy and play Halo have never heard of Marathon. Hell, I've never even played the game. I was still in elementary school, and wouldn't own a PC for another few years.

Halo is awesome if it is the only FPS you have ever played.

Gears of War is a lot of fun, you have no where near the control and accuracy of a mouse/keyboard set up even now though.  GoW doesn't really need it though, it's a glorified corridor shooter and you only rarely have more than three or four targets to deal with at one time.

Yes, in Gears of War you are either running or gunning, rarely do you run and gun.  When you do have to both move and shoot at the same time it sucks just as bad as any other console FPS.

IMHO, the success of Gears has more to do with the absolute perfection of the graphics and sound more than the gameplay, which is really quite good.  The cover and targetting mechanics are what make the game for me, along with the spectacular graphics.  Regular TVs do NOT do it justice.  HD is a must.

Edit: Back to thread subject though.  Somewhat saddened to hear that Halo 3 didn't meet your expectations, BG.  Did you really expect too much, or are you genuinely disappointed?

I never understood why halo was so great either. I'm one of those guys that can't play FPSes with a gamepad, so I was truly excited when halo1 came out for PC. Then I started playing. It ran like dogshit, looked like crap, and played like every other FPS. Its only real innovation was the shield mechanic. I didn't even finish the singleplayer, and nobody ever played multi on PC. I went right back to UT2004.

Halo still has the best vehicle implementation, in terms of game balance, that I've seen in an FPS. I am not really an FPS aficionado though.

I'm genuinely disappointed.  It just didn't impress me at all, and I'm no longer one of those "FPS must be played on a PC!" guys.  Gears, R6V, and Lost Planet are all more interesting and deeper shooters, and they also look a lot better.

This is run and gun in the strictest sense of the term.  It's been done to death, and done better.

Yea, I'm hoping Shadowrun this week fills the void in my stomach that was created when I stopped playing Lost Planet. Cuz Halo 3 sure as hell ain't filling it.

As I've said before, I see the FPS genre separating into two fairly distinct subgenres:

Traditional FPS with the focus on precise aiming and movement.
Third-person FPS (uh...yeah whatever, that makes no sense) like Gears of War that is more console friendly both in terms of control and presentation.

I suspect that the majority of FPS games on console in a few years will actually be TPS games. (Third-person shooter)

Traditional FPS games that focus on aiming precision are always going to be better on mouse/keyboard combo.

Im sure most of you have heard me say this before, but ill say it again.

On the subject of Gamepads and FPS games. I used to believe that keyboard and mouse (K&B) was better AND the only way to go. Since I had so much fun playing Gears of War I branched out and got some more FPS games for my Xbox 360. I am still convinced that K&B is way better, but the gamepad can be very fun in the right situation. If I dont plan to play a game online, I would almost prefer the game to be gamepad now. Its just so much nicer to sit on my couch with my HD TV and game relaxed.

In short, I was wrong about gamepads, they are very fun. If you are one of those people who is like I used to be, you owe it to yourself to give a gamepad a chance. It took me playing through Gears of War one full time to get comfertable with it. But now I can play Rainbow Six: Vegas and other FPS fine, and I have a great time doing it.

As to Halo 3 MP beta, its boring. Half life did the same game 10 years ago. Nothing to see here.

Gears of War is a good game to get used to FPS controls with a gamepad. Nobody really moves that fast and it's a lot easier to track and shoot since most of the time, you aren't moving around while you're shooting at something. Once you get Gears mastered, it's not much of a jump to the next level, something like R6:LV that you can do a little bit of run and gun and everyone moves a bit faster. And so on, and so on...

Shadowrun is just online Multiplayer right?  There's no split-screen multi?  I'll be picking this up on the 360 regardless, but it would have been nice to have some offline multi.

Hm. I haven't even checked for offline multi in the beta. Wasn't an option (beta was severely limited).

I like the current crop of console FPS just fine, now that the games are not just PC FPS with a gamepad.  The improvements in stick-based control as well as the game design (murdoc's example above of people in Gears not moving as fast as what I assumed to be  the implied typical PC FPS was a good one).  One simple improvement is that I don't overshoot my aim in R6V like I would in Halo; precise aiming is just easier.  For a contrasting game design element, I cannot imagine trying to shoot a leaper in HL2 using a gamepad.

You know what else sucks with a gamepad?  Oblivion.

I had no problem with Oblivion on a control pad. I expected to hate it.

My problem is mostly my typical Y-axis confusion when switching games, the sort of thing you don't have to worry about if you only play PC games.  Seems like anything that requires camera control is really getting under my skin lately, maybe I am having a Vulcan period.  That and unlearning the K+M stuff in general.  I am going to enjoy bitching about it until I am converted, which might take another four weeks.

I will give it this, the speed of the game does not make me curse my turning speed when using sticks.  This is a big problem with FPS (for me) on a console, at least historically, since they were usually ported to console instead of from console like all the cool kids are doing these days.  Also, the block/attack routine works well on triggers where it was a tad cumbersome on mouse buttons.

Fuck that noise.

Put the pipe down and play Marathon. That story is the best story any video game maker has put out. I Love Bees is good, Marathon's backstory and the speculation it created that still exists today is the stuff of legend.

Played and read (http://marathon.bungie.org/Story/) Marathon. I Love Bees was more than "just the story." It was the Better Than the Best Radio Drama voice acting and the amazing world they created outside of Halo just for it.


No. Viva la Deus Ex y Planescape Torment.

Agreed there, the voice acting/radio drama element gave it an amazing kick, but that was dresssing for the story.


Feh. Again, good stuff, but Deus Ex was a cyberpunk X-Files and Torment, while a piece of genius, benefitted a lot more from its setting, TSR's brilliant (yet doomed) Planescape gameworld than anything else.

The 360 allows you to set Y-axis, auto-aim/auto-center, etc globally for all shooter/action games, which is pretty cool.  Same for camera choice in racing games and what-not.

But we're talking about an audio/visual total package. I Love Bees did as much or more with Less. And Planescape DID benefit from the setting... but I'm not seeing a problem there. :| Trust me, I'm not going to KNOCK Marathon. But as a total package, I think it merely lands it in the top 10.

And it's multiplayer only.  Sorry, but if you want my $60 you need to at least put forth a little effort and crank out a single player campaign.

Well, see that doesn't help my particular problem.  Any given game can feel weird for me in either the X or Y, depending on vague factors such as what I played recently and what I was expecting.  What happens to me after playing such a game for thirty seconds is that switching to either setting feels weird.  Having some games (HI JAPAN!!) not let me change it just makes things worse.  If the game is using an American camera (left looks left) then playing that after I have been playing a Japanese camera (left looks right) then I just get all confused and die a lot.

Dead Rising.  I had to set UP to LOOK UP when in first-person-photo mode but that fucks me up when in third person... or is that the other way?  I think I set "airplane mode" (UP looks DOWN) when in photo mode.  Oh, my head.

Oh, my car.

Master Chief has a real name.  I don't remember or care what the fuck it is, but he has one.  I suspect it was intentionally left out to allow for some wish-fulfillment masturbation from the players.

As for the game, I got Halo for my PC and played it through to the end and was sorely unimpressed.  It's like Goldeneye; the console players latched onto the only decent FPS available and worshiped it solely on the merits of not being shitty like the other FPSes they had available.  But, well.  The console FPS treasure is the PC FPS trash; they simply can't compete.  Even if they wind up bringing out Gears of War to the PC, as the constant rumors state, I very much doubt it can stand up against top of the line PC FPSes.

His name is John, or SPARTAN-117, John if you include his project designation.

I'd say you're dead wrong.  It may just be it's style of play, but with the cover system and the flat-out visceralness (is that even a word?  Oh well.) it brings, I can't think of a PC FPS better than it.  Even HL2.  And I'm far from a console FPS fanboy, but the game really is that fucking good.

Although Crysis may dethrone it, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Oh, my daughter, oh my Duckets.

Halo was never about multiplayer IMO. It was about coop with your friends and a fun sci-fi story-lite. That for me is the enjoyment of the Halo games. That's why I haven't even bothered with the Halo 3 MP beta and am buying the game when it comes out.

BTW, an odd observation. I have discovered I can get more headshots and such with a gamepad now than I can with a keyboard and mouse. It weirds me out, but my aim is better in say, Rainbow Six Vegas (360), than it is in Half-life 2. My thumb just knows how to move that stick to precisely where I want it and blow people's heads off.

See, now you're confusing people. I was referencing this:

(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/5081/ohmycarql6.png)

I was going for the esoteric and inscrutable Jew joke.

Seriously?  As in Spartan, John Spartan?  As in "Mellow greetings, John Spartan!"

Oh dear.

(http://www.engl.uvic.ca/Faculty/MBHomePage/engl366c/images/MV_3-1a.jpg)

Whoops.  That's the vengeful, "Hath not a Jew eyes?" joke.  Damn you, Shylock!

He looks nothing like Al Pacino.

Gears on PC could be good, depends on how they massage it when they bring it over.  The speed and accuracy of the mouse could make it easy enough that people won't like it, but the other bits might make it harder.  It's a good game, though.

Could be that MS just brings it over straight and gently suggests everyone buy a 360 controller for their PC.

Yeah, I agree. I had a lot of fun with the original Halo .. but by the time Halo 2 came around, it was just totally underwhelming. I probably put less than five hours total into the multiplayer, I just couldn't get into it. I'm not even looking forward to Halo 3.

I agree!  :-D :evil:

Gears of War. Not FPS. TPS, isn't it mostly played in third person? Also, there will be a pc version, and it will have gamepad support (and that's when yours truly ill get around to playing it). I'm fairly sure the logitech pad will work as well as the 360 pad.

I replaced my PC Logitech pads with X360 pads. The X360 analog sticks are the best in gaming - period.

I have that wireless dongle but so far have not manufactured a reason to sync up the 360 pad.

It's first person when you want to properly Aim.

I think that's one of the things that makes it so good.  You've got much better situational awareness when you're running around taking cover, and it also appears to be more chaotic, like you're watching a bizarro war movie.  When you go into first person to aim, though, it's all about taking down the grubs.

Gears of War - Best. Headshots. Ever.

I don't claim to be any kind of gaming historian, but here is a short list of features or innovations the original halo brought to the table:

• Frequent Autosave triggers
• 2 Weapon Limit
• Grenade on its own button, shoot + throw grenade at same time
• Every weapon could melee
• Refilling Shield System
• Drivable vehicles (with intuitive, but loose controls)
• Computer Allies (that would hop into your battle jeep)
• Co-op Mode for entire campaign

I don't know if they were really the first FPS to implement these specific features, but when I played Halo the first time, they were all new to me.  Combine that with high production values, a coherent plot, and a very strong musical score and it should be easy to understand the appeal.

Many games had weapon limits, some by inventory size, some by money, and some by "You Get 2."
Autosave triggers are nothing new, they're called lives, you just have an infinite amount of them.
Unreal had the gauntlet.
I'm pretty sure a few games had every weapon melee, but don't quote me. I don't particularly care about it enough think hard.
Serious Sam had Coop mode for the entire campaign.
Vehicles ^_^ Meh. You'll never find me in one in any game by choice. So once again, wouldn't know.

Really, it's mostly the "First decent FPS on a console" thing that made it a phenomenon. That's where the buck begins and stops.

Also:

Shields = Regen, lol.

Gren + Shoot? Oh geez, I might have to left-click + KB key, OH NOES.

AI allies, by the by, suck.

Most of this stuff was originally in Marathon in '94,  along with most of what's considered standard gameplay in FPSes.  But no one knows/cares because Marathon wasn't ported to Windows until after Windows FPSes had caught up.

These ones? (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/gaming/productdetails.aspx?pid=091)

And do they play nice with XP?

Yes they do. The "Windows" version comes with the driver on a CD but if you get the Xbox 360 ones (same hardware) you can just download the driver from MS and save yourself like $5.

Ah, excellent. I saw the two of them side by side a couple of days ago in a store, but wasn't sure about them because of the Vista logo, and the au$12 price difference here.

If you want to download the drivers from MS, do they pull that "Verification" nonsense on you?

Yes it does, though if I remember correctly it either automatically recognizes it if you have SP2 or it downloads it for you without you having to go through that step.

Verification? As in, "is your copy of windows legit?"

Also, do the wireless controllers work just as well as the wired ones on xp?

Yes.

No idea.

They've got these (http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-Wireless-Gaming-Receiver-Windows/dp/B000HZFCT2/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-8774055-3708053?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1180863237&sr=8-1) for connecting the wireless controllers to the PC, although from the reviews it seems like some people have problems getting them to work. 

Meh, looks like the wired ones will be the way to go then.

Heh, I guess no 360 controller for the PC for me.  :-P

If you're worried about "verification", just buy the one that costs an extra fiver.  :roll:

Heh, it's really a moot point, as I don't really play anything that would warrant a gamepad on the PC.

It's nice to have the option though, I suppose.

You should've been a patent examiner.

I simply don't understand his hatred of vehicles, it's like he had his birthday cake run over as a little kid.

Vehicles are awesome and any FPS is made better by their inclusion.

Hey, there's this hot "new" FPS called Half-Life 2.  Apparently you missed it.

To be fair, Halo did vechicles before Half Life. Doesn't mean much though.

Actually, vehicles are a big reason for Halo's success I believe.  I remember everybody looking forward to it because it looked to be the first FPS that would really combine a full Vehicle/FPS over large area gameplay.  We all enjoyed it quite a bit for that alone, and that was what made multiplayer a blast at the time.  It was just really new and cool.

Didn't Starsiege Tribes and Tribes 2 have vehicles over a large area?

Yeah, think it did, but tribes wasn't really that popular (how was the vehicle combat in it?  Good?).......  Don't know what it was, but I never tried it and never knew anybody else who had ever played it.  Hell, most people hadn't even heard of it.  Tribes 2 also came out around the same time as Halo if I recall correctly.  Plus Halo, again, was for a console, so it stood out big time there.

I was actually scoffing at the "vehicles make any FPS better" idea by providing the obvious counterexample.  The Halo vehicles, all of them, are so much better than the HL2 ones, any of them, that I can't believe Gabe Newell has a driver's license.

I didn't spend a lot of time in vehicles in Tribes2. I think I would set up the remote base and then go grab heavy armor or something.

However...vehicles in BF1942...Wake Island with some good pilots, trying to keep your tanks shielded from the onslaught...humping through the woods as infantry with tanks lobbing shells all around you, AA guns pounding flak, planes flying overhead, naval bombardments, jeeps zooming along...goddamn that's a great game. Still the most visceral vehicle-inclusion in an fps to me (Planetside has good integration, too).

I do give credit to the fun drive physics of the Warthog and the good vibe of the force-feedback chaingun on the back.

I loved the vehicles in UT2k4. So much fun. The Manta was awesome, so was that HUGE tank thing.

Agreed. I also liked shooting fliers out of the sky with the main tank cannon.

Pissed the pilots off something fierce.

Going prone with the medic rifle in BF1942, you could take out planes every now and again. BF2 had some nice tricks with the upgraded sniper rifle...but you had to grind to open it up :|

Tribes (1 and 2) had vehicles that were novel, but not really integral to gameplay, since every player was their own vehicle in the end. Outside of a few specific scenario's in game, you were almost always better of just skiing wherever you needed to be. Unless you had a dedicated crew to hangout with in Tribes, it was really difficult to 'click' with anyone else in regards to vehicle usage and have any kind of effectiveness. Halo seems much better at the "Hay a jeep, lets go drive the jeep and shoot stuff!" then other FPS's. There is a complexity to the Tribes2 vehicles that is just lost on the average Katabatic CTF player :). Which is sad, since Katabatic was one of the better vehicle maps.

As did Mobile Forces, back in the day...

For it's time, Tribes 1 had good vehicles, but vehicles were a novelty then. UT2k4 had great vehicles. Halo just happened to have them on a console.

Also, the UT series has the sexy female voice to artificially inflate my ego, whispering sweet things in my ears when I do well.

Seriously, the damn announcers are one of my favorite features of the UT series.

MO-MO-MO-MONSTER KILL!

EAGLE EYE, RAMPAGE, HOOOOLY SHIT!

Now I want to play UT....

Halo's only real innovation was the shielding system, which meant that you could never be put into a situation where you couldn't continue playing. If you survive the fight, you can continue. No need to worry about health or ammo, since you can pick up enemies' weapons as well.

I'm playing through halo2 vista (I know, I know) and it does look like total dogshit but is a really tight well tuned FPS.

A little late with this response, Bungie made the Marathon games available as freeware a few years back. (http://trilogyrelease.bungie.org/)  You have no excuse for not playing them.

The pictures tell me all that I need to know.

Even if it was a good game, my point still stands.  :evil:

I used to play Marathon in our science labs.  But the truth is it wasn't really anything special.  Marathon, like Halo, was just blessed to be a decent FPS on a platform with no competition when it came out.