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The Perfect SW MMO, An Examination by Reign

So I started thinking of what the ‘Perfect’ Star Wars MMO would be like in the future...You know, if LucasArts collaborated with a great MMO making company and decided on an $120-150 million budget, and basically said ‘screw it, the sky is the limit on technology, development staff, features, whatever- anything that sounds fun will be implemented carefully and methodically….

Now, it’s pretty much a known that fact that Bioware is mysteriously making a new MMO- some hope that it is Mass Effect, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, etc.- but I would like to open a new discussion concerning KOTOR/or the ’Knights Of’ Universe by saying that I would much rather see a KOTNR (Knights of the New Republic) game, or something like 'New Jedi Order Online' instead of any version of KOTOR. I don’t believe KOTOR has the potential to be the perfect Star Wars MMO-even though it would still eb a great game….

However, love or hate the Expanded Star Wars Universe (EU) - and most I have spoken with love it 5x better than the new trilogy- here’s the reasons why I believe it doesn’t have quite the potential:

Maybe its only me, but playing a game in a current expanded universe setting where my character could actually exist amid all the things that are actively taking place in the SW universe, and actually making an impact- including the new plots, characters, etc.- is something much more exciting and intriguing than playing an avatar, who, when reading the new stories that come out in the Star Wars EU, you know he's probably been dead for thousands of years and had very little meaning on the universe as a whole. I also see many things, story-line and lore wise, that they can do with a KOTNR or NJOO that they may not be able to do with a KOTOR-like game.

Just think of the possibilities or feature list of an open future, next-gen Star Wars game with a large budget, where player actions truly control the fate of the galaxy (instead of giving the illusion of control like in Star Wars Galaxies) amidst new threats of galactic conquest. Some of these next-gen, innovative features could include the following:

· Choose your faction – Required to play as one of four factions:  The valiant Jedi-New Republic Alliance, the dark and brooding Sith, the vigilant Imperial Remnant, or as the deadly Yuuzhan Vong invaders in the war torn galaxy.

· Choose a species – Choose from over 16 species and races including Humans, Zabraks, Twi’leks, Rodians, Noghri, Chiss, Wookies, Keldorians, Bothans, Falleen, Yuuzhan Vong, Ithorians, Quarrens, and more…

· Create a unique character – With countless facial, body, age, and skin color sliders, your character will have a personal touch of character. Combined with the ability to create complex and colorful clothing outfits, custom Jedi Robes, and intimidating Bounty Hunter armor right from the beginning with our outfitter system, your avatar will truly be unique in this online universe.

· Class diversity - Choose one of many exciting classes like the ‘Jedi Guardian’ for defensive specialization, or the Sith Reapers for stealthy offensive prowess. For non-Force users, class options include cunning Bounty Hunters, Assassins, or even peaceful and profitable industrialists.

· Build Faction and Earn Rank – Accrue faction points for special quests and missions and receive rewards that will bolster your abilities, equipment, and Force powers in your faction controlled territory. Top faction point earners will quickly move up the ranks in their faction, eventually becoming Jedi Masters, Dark Lords, Generals, or War Masters that can use large-scale assault equipment or attacks on the battlefield and in orbital battle zones.

· Points of interest - Visit the new Jedi Academy established by Luke Skywalker, and meet legendary characters like the beautiful Mara Jade, a conflicted Jacen Solo, and the youthful Ben Skywalker

· Hybrid Skill system - Mix and match supplemental Force and martial skills to your character to assist in battling your enemies and other players

· Individual light-saber customization - Design your own hilt, choose the color, as well as the material makeup of your weapon- will you build a traditional blade, dual wield twin sabers, or utilize a saber staff like the mythic Darth Maul?

· Galactic Travel - Travel over 12 controllable planets including a battered and rebuilding Coruscant, the tropical Mon Calamari, Yavin IV, Bothuwai, the Sith capital of Korriban, Ord Mantell, and the rogue planet Zonama Sekot

· Influence the Galaxy – Make a personal impact on the destiny of the galaxy by helping your faction capture, defend, or compete for control of each planet against the other factions. You can play a key role in shaping the galaxy after the conclusion of the Vong war.

· Build persistent player structures - Whether it’s building defensive fortresses on the surface to defend key strategic planetary control points, or banding together with a guild to construct a menacing space station to defend the orbit of your faction’s planet, you can choose to purchase hundreds of customizable buildings or facilities that all serve a purpose.

· Custom Ships & Orbital Assault– Use your hard-earned revenue or crafting skills to acquire custom built star-fighters or gigantic capital ships to defend or attack the orbital defenses of the planets.

· High Octane Space Battles – Enjoy the first person, fast-paced twitch combat in space through the cockpit of your personal Starfighter or Capital Ship. Use cunning strategies and a bit of luck to board enemy Capital ships and assault other players and NPC’s within the hangar, corridors, or bridge to destroy the ships controls.

· Next-Gen Rendering Technology – Loading screens are a thing of the past with our rendering engine that allows for direct and seamless, real-time transition from space to planetary atmosphere to planet surfaces.

· Revolutionary Server Technology – Why have over 8-10 servers when most of the games population can fit one 1-3 with our new server and bandwidth technology! Gather with hundreds of thousands of players in the same galaxy and planets without the lag or delays that plague MMO servers.

Could we possibly see some of these features in the future with Bioware or another project? Why did I make some of these features on my wish list? Lets take a closer look….

Thoughts behind the features:

Character Creation and Customization – Ok, we all know that most next gen games will have some pretty sweet character customization tools for facial, body, tone, color, and hair options, but Id like to propose a new perspective and way of thinking into the equation of character creation.

Well, I shouldn’t say new, because its not entirely new to the genre. Sure, while next-gen features are nice, WoW proved that games don’t have to re-invent the wheel to create something special. So, with that said, let’s take a look at one of the most successful MMO’s in today’s market for a moment- City of Heroes/City of Villains- and apply one of their great features to this perfect MMO.

Now, like it or not, one thing that ALL gamers must admit is that CoH has one of, if not THE best character creation tool in this genre. It has completely revolutionized the task of creating a character, and has almost made a virtual mini-game out of it. Sure, we see all these developers touting that you can spend hours in their respective character creation screens, but I’ll openly admit- Ive been playing MMO’s for 9 years and I’ve rarely spent more than 5-10 minutes creating my toon before I get in-game. Hell, that’s all I’ve needed with some of these crappy customization options and so-called ‘great’ character creation tools.

But with CoX, however, I have indeed spent hours messing with the character creation tool. It’s an integral part of the game at all levels (because you can have multiple outfits and change them as long as you have money), and it makes the beginning of the game more bearable, fun, and immersive. From the minute you step into the environment, you have the outfit/costume that you want, completely customized to your taste.- It identifies your character and makes him unique, and in some cases makes him stand out. Some costumes themselves make others players drool with envy, or jealous that they didn’t think up such a cool color, tights, or armor combo or collaboration.

So I started thinking, if I had the perfect Star Wars MMO, I would want the ability to choose the robe/clothing/outfit combination for my Jedi/Sith/Vong warrior, pilot, merchant, etc. right from the beginning, and, like CoH, be able to modify or enhance the color combination or certain pieces of that outfit throughout the game to my liking. Perhaps you’d like a leather tunic like Anankin in Episode 3, but a flowing bottom and baggy pants like Darth Maul? No problem, queue both of those options up on your toon after creating his body type, and choose the color of your choice (although neon colors should be taken out for some items and pastels need to be carefully voided out). Boom, you have a custom outfit for your unique Jedi/Sith right from the onset of your online avatar’s creation.

The same thing should go with their hair and tattoos – choose the color, template, location, etc. I believe this would be the first step to making the perfect MMO- take what is perhaps the best character creation option we’ve seen and start your game with a bang amongst the players.

Cons w/ Character/Outfit Generator: As long as the devs do their diligence like Cryptic Studios-and make sure there are literally thousands of costume pieces you can place together to literally make millions of combinations like CoH can, then I cannot think of any cons in regard to the ability to visually customize the multiple outfits of your character constantly.

With that in mind, I see some players asking the question about items like armor or helmets, etc., and how they would affect the look of your character. My first inclination is to tell folks that item centric games are overrated and involve too much micro-management (CoH also proves you don’t have to have 10 different pieces of body armor and jewelry you have to throw on your character to make the game a quality product) - but some people like that crap.

To them I say perhaps it could still be possible to have an item centric game, and perhaps have the option to either turn the item graphics on so you can physically see what you have equipped, or to just keep the statistical effect on while you hide the items you’re wearing, that way you can still show off your uber custom robes or design talents.

That’s kind of a grey area, but I believe, especially in Star Wars where the only people to wear armor are the Storm Troopers and Mandalorians- item centric armor just doesn’t go. I thought it was dumb as hell in SWG, but then again they didn’t have an outfit/costume/robe generator for the characters, so I went ahead and accepted the fact. I would much rather have many different flavors of personal deflector shields that act as the ‘armor’ of the game if you will, that each player can tune or enhance or upgrade, and really keep the cosmetic look of the characters based around the costume/outfit/character creation editor, where true customization and visual avatar style is in the hands of the player- not the dev created armor sets (how boring, yuck)

The only exception to the rule under this issue would be players who select Yuuzhan Vong as a character race, who utilize organic clothing and armor. But- like I said above- if the devs can make tons of options for their race specific needs, I don’t see a problem with this either.

 

Storyline & Scope – Even in KOTOR, you are somewhat limited in scope. The Old Republic cannot fall, so there’s no surprise there in any Knights of the Old Republic Setting.  If you go any further back, you start running into the rehashed stories of Exar Kun and the Sith War, etc. And while it would be cool to experience the timeframe of that Jedi vs. Sith epic war- it’s not anything new…its old material by years….

I just think the potential for this game is much more solid than a game based thousands of years ago in a universe that’s been pretty plodded over in that regard. I think that the ongoing story and plot of the expanded universe could be intertwined with this game via the books, or maybe let a game of this magnitude really be the outlet for the players and fans of the genre to continue living out the Star Wars universe. Think about that for a sec…What a dream it would be for the true fans of the genre to actually progress the Star Wars storyline themselves…Interact with an aging and wise Luke Skywalker, receive dangerous wisdom and advice of the Force from Jacen Solo, play cards and have a beer with the old scoundrel, Han Solo, on Ord Mantell.

It’s just so much more ‘Epic’ when the future is not known, and in terms of MMO gameplay, players have always chosen and favored games where, through PvP as well as PvE, they can determine the reality of the universe they live in and make a ‘visual’ and ‘tangible’ impact they can see, feel, and experience.

Cons w/ the Storyline & Scope: In regards to the storyline, the only con is the best pro - unpredictability. If one faction becomes strong enough and successfully recruits thousands of players- lets say the Sith for instance, they could essentially take over the galaxy if they are well organized enough, and maintain control until players finally get sick of it. Some players would hate this, because they would miss out on content available in the other worlds where the enemy controls the entry to the planet, and most key points of interest on the planet.

Me? I would actually love this, as it makes players work together, organize, and use intelligent strategy and public war campaigns to establish a united balance in the galaxy. I also feel that, if the Sith controlled most of the planets in the galaxy, it would be a great opportunity for the development support staff to really relish in that fact, and create quests and on-the fly missions for the other factions to deepen the anguish and dark feel of the galaxy as its being ruled by the Sith…what a great way to have a dynamic, on-going storyline.

But overall, in the grand scheme of things, one of my main beliefs behind this universe and cannon is that we need to separate from the predictability. I know I hated the fact that in SWG, there was really no grand storyline that the players could advance- just like LOTR. They might give you the ‘illusion’ that you are, in some way, impacting the setting of your game, but in reality, you aren’t doing anything to influence the storyline, feel, or experience of your environment. The Rebels would always end up winning the ‘larger’ war, regardless of if the in-game Imperials took over every star port on the planets.

Id like to be part of changing the results of the ‘larger’ war, if you know what I mean, and I feel that’s really the key to the longevity of most next-gen games…

 

Factions & Technology: A good example of the impact players can see and feel in this ‘Perfect’ SW MMO could be the ability of each faction to have complete and ‘tangible’ control of each planet (perhaps save for one home planet for each faction) and certain territories of the galaxy if they recruit enough troops to join the cause, and take those locations by force via strategic control points. ( I believe that this could be a polished version of what AoC is doing in their PvP zones with Siege Towers & Fortresses)

Almost like ‘Capture the Flag’ checkpoints, these key control areas could be clustered in locations within the Capital cities, star ports, or certain military structures on the planet that opposing factions would have to gather near and spend time ‘Capturing’ that checkpoint, much like some first person shooters, only a bit longer). Players from each faction could build housing, guild fortresses, and military defense structures near the static surface control points to ensure stiff resistance when an invading force comes knocking and attempts a hostie takeover.

The more planets a certain faction holds, perhaps their players could earn a small amount of xp, money, and faction perks- more so than the factions that hold very few planets.

To further the depth of this kind of gameplay and make sure it stays realistic, epic, and hard enough to gain control of an entire planet, perhaps there would need to be a space battle to destroy certain orbital shield platforms or defense structures around each planet before the enemy factions could gain entrance to the planet surface.

Also, if conquering a player controlled planet proves to be too difficult, or if non-PvP players want a shot at planetary control, perhaps there could also be 2-4 planets that are PvE battles only. That way the PvE careb—errr, the PvE loyalists would also have the opportunity to win over planetary control without having to face player-character resistance. On these PvE battle planets, perhaps they could be very similar to the ‘Hiving’ system AoC will have in its PvE border kingdoms where the controlling faction can build houses, trade, set up player shops and cantinas, etc.- but the enemy NPC factions, when left unchecked, will construct fortresses, siege weapons, and ground forces of their own to root you out. This would give the PvE players non-stop, immersive action that would support grouping for a common cause against the local forces, keeping their population and military forces in check- or having to pay the consequences by being forced from the planet, and having to conquer it all over again from the beginning, starting with orbital control.

 

Cons w/ Factions & Technology: At first glance, we’re all thinking to ourselves that the grand scale of things is unrealistic… Yeah, I realize it’s a bit of a stretch you goofballs, but think for a minute about a Star Wars Universe populated by hundreds of thousands- possibly millions- of gamers of all 4 factions each plotting and vying for control of the universe. Planetary conquests would need strategic planning and massive amounts of coordination- individual players and guilds would emerge as battlefield and orbital commanders, dishing out orders to the thousands of troops and coordinating assaults that may have taken weeks to prepare for.

Yes, for an MMO today, this would be unrealistic indeed. But who knows - here in 7-12 years, we might have server technology that enables hundreds of thousands of players to play on one server or a persistent server cluster rendering one galaxy together without any lag involved whatsoever. We have to dream right?

So in essence, having these 4 gigantic factions- which should each have a consistent fan base and following of players- could possibly work- if you can get that many players on one server. I mean, theoretically, it could work on a server that holds 8-10,000 players without lag, and we’re not that far away from that – but even then, with a universe that has over 10+ planets, some might be under-populated or easily conquered because they are off the beaten path or there’s just not enough of the population to cover them.

Some might be saying (oh my gosh the devs will have to spend 10+ years creating content for all these huge planets and for such a large galaxy, etc.) Well, yes, the devs will have to spend 2 years of content development at least, but let us not forget that linear games where the devs have put content as their top priority have not necessarily done so well (let’s not forget the example of Vanguard).

Lets take the pre-CU SWG as an example for a moment - a game with hundreds of thousands of players that was in its prime – there was crap for content at the highest levels of gameplay, yet it was a classic game everyone enjoyed…why?

Because once the players maxed out their skill trees and professions, player cities took on a life of their own, and faction battles, organized raids, and player conflict evolved to the point where SWG didn’t really need any content at the higher levels for the most part, because on high population servers, there was always drama on every planet, whether it was Imperials chasing Rebels through Naboo, both factions fighting over Krayt Dragons and resources on Tatooine, Rebel groups running assaults on Imperial player cities and guilds, players developing an identity for their player city with bustling cantinas and active entertainment from player dancers and musicians, etc, etc.- the list goes on folks. None of that was the devs adding any ‘content’ into the game..

Just think if we had the amount of planets, resources, and the game mechanics I speak about concerning this game- how fun it would be to take over these planets with our factions first, then once again establish player towns and outposts that each develop their own identity and fame for one reason or another. Perhaps the Vong take over Yavin IV, and a certain player-made city (organically grown in the Vong sense) becomes famous for always routing any invading forces around their control point…the city becomes notorious for its warriors and defenders to the point where a faction has to gather an army just to try and overcome this particular outpost….players and warriors become famous within the communities, cities and battles gain notoriety, and all of this contributes to the immersive feel of the game.

So- with these type of game mechanics involved, the devs wouldn’t have to spend years just to develop ‘high level content’ as we’ve all dubbed it – the content – at least the very high level stuff- would be up to the factions, and I doubt with so many diverse players from across the world on such few servers would disappoint in terms of bringing dynamic events to the table that stir the galaxy every week.

 

Classes – The perfect class system for me would be tied in directly to the factions, almost like a Real vs. Realm game similar to the upcoming Warhammer Online. It would be the first option you choose at character creation before you even get to the character creation screen. You’re virtually encouraging your player-base away from the anti-social, neutral type characters and urging them to get involved in the fun events and core gameplay elements the game is designed for. (although players could still solo and stay out of the conflict in certain areas if that is their priority)

Although the game, in essence, would likely be centered around Jedi, Sith, and the physics of saber and Force combat, I wouldn’t want to limit the game by focusing it around those two factions and their abilities as lightsaber wielding Force users. The Yuuzhan Vong would be a nice counterbalance to the lightsaber and blaster repetitiveness, as they use organically grown weapons, vehicles, ships, etc. You could also include Soldier, Bounty Hunter, and Assassin classes into the Imperial Remnant faction, as well as Commando and Smuggler classes into the Jedi-Republic Alliance faction to mix things up and provide ranged combat specialist for folks who do not wish to clash lightsabers or amphistaffs.

The Jedi classes could represent balanced offensive and defense capabilities, the Sith classes stealth, damage, and power, the Yuuzhan Vong high vitality and constitution and debuffing, and the Imperial Remnant could represent powerful ranged classes combined with stealth-like aspects. Theres a million different directions you could go- but having these particular 4 factions and their classes could give just about any kind of star wars fan an avatar role they are comfortable in fulfilling.

 

Ability System – I’ll stick by my belief that the best ability system for MMO’s is a combination of class direction and interchangeable skills you can level up and slot into your character. Flexibility is key, and I love the idea of pool skills that every class can use…Let me give you an example:

Let’s say you choose to play the offensive Jedi class. Even though your character has many deadly saber combinations and acrobatic moves in combat, you have a limited amount of defensive skills you can slot, and because of that you have a limited amount of defensive skills you take advantage of in combat. So you go to the defensive skill pool list, and have to make some tough decisions- do you go for the blaster bolt deflection skill, or the advanced saber blocking skill which makes you tougher to harm in melee combat?

Well, depending on the player, you can go many different ways when there are multiple defensive options. This promotes flexibility and diversity in each persons character, as some might play in Imperial Remnant areas that are populated with blaster and rifle users…Others may do some hunting or PvP in Sith zones, where Saber battles are constant, and therefore you may elect the upgraded saber blocking ability in your defensive slot over bolt deflection…I just love any type of system that lets the player choose some of his strengths and weakness, and allows you to change those depending on the situation later in your character’s development. Nothing pisses me off more than to be pigeon-holed into something for the lifespan of my toon.



Reality Check- Save the speeches on how this game will never be made…I know it wont..at least in my unlucky gaming lifespan…But we all can dream, and I figured I could infuse a little creative discussion on what everyone thinks would be their perfect Star Wars MMO. What it be in a KOTOR setting, or perhaps an expanded universe current setting where we can see and feel the aftermath of the Vong war, etc….


What gameplay elements or features of mine do you agree with, which would you change, why would you change them, what could be added to the feature list to make it even more awe inspiring for the generations of future gamers, etc..?

Again, just for some healthy discussion…. ; )

A few things that strike me:

Number one, I really dislike the EU setting.  How many people do you think seriously know or care what the Yuuzhan Vong are?  If you're going to say "screw continuity, I'm going to let the Imperial Remnant (or whoever) conquer the galaxy no matter what happens in the EU," why not just set it at some undefined point during the original trilogy, or during the Clone Wars, and let things unfold however they happen?  At least that way, you'd start with the iconic Star Wars setting (Vader, Death Star, et al.), rather than this kind of semi-related setting that relatively few people outside the very hardcore know or care about.

Two: Another Class/Level based PvP system?  Can we pleeeeeease move away from that?  I hate, hate, hate level based PvP.  And why have classes in a Star Wars game?  It seems to me you'd have maybe three, total:  "guy with Lightsaber", "guy with blaster", and "guy who flies ship".  Maybe some kind of "guy who doesn't get to do anything interesting but is vitally important to the economy" class, for all the people who want to live the dream of being C-3PO.  But trying to come up with a dozen different classes that all do basically the same thing is how SWG ended up with people running around with pikes and tamed wampas and wierd stuff like that.  Something skill based (like EVE), in my opinion, would be vastly preferable, and not so vulnerable to clutter.

Three: It seems like there's a bit of bias here towards Jedi or other force users.  You've got all kinds of options (Customizable lightsabers?  "Supplimental force skills"?) which are only applicable to them.  And if you're going to stay in line with the lore, your average Jedi should be able to kick the shit out of a number of Imperial Remnant players that approaches infinity.

And you've got four factions there: the good guys (OMG T3H J3D1! WITH LUK3 4ND H4N 4ND LIEA!!!!!) and a handful of bad guys that nobody's heard of (the Imperial Remnant?  That's like the Empire, except minus all the cool characters, and they always get their asses kicked, right?  SIGN ME UP!).  These four factions are going to battle over major PvP objectives in a non-instanced universe?  And holding these planets would give significant bonuses to the victor?  I can't see this staying numerically balanced for long.  How many people are seriously going to play as Yuuzhan Vong, versus how many people are going to just instantly click on "Jedi"?

Also, this kind of jumped out at me:


You really think that the "Star Wars Universe" means something?  Like there's some "Official Lucas Stamp of Approval" or something which means that the things taking place in this game are going to be the really real version of Star Wars?  The idea that your character "could actually exist amid all the things that are actively taking place in the SW universe" seems bizarre, since that is exactly what they are already doing in KOTOR or SWG.  Even though KOTOR takes place umpty bazillion years before A New Hope, it was written relatively recently; if you wrote a new novel in KOTOR and another in NJO, they would both be "actively taking place" in the Star Wars universe.  You say about KOTOR (I presume): "when reading the new stories that come out in the Star Wars EU, you know he's probably been dead for thousands of years and had very little meaning on the universe as a whole", like it's supposed to mean something.  First of all, any character in any MMO is going to have very little effect on the universe as a whole; that's how MMOs work.  Second of all, why would I care what some author has to say about stuff that happened in another story only tangentially related to the one I'm currently reading/playing?  And third, you really think that Michael Stackpole is going to write his next novel about how -D4RtH_P3N1sL0L- and his evil band of marauders camped the Jedi spawning point for three weeks before getting bored and wandering off to kill some mynocks for their fangs, or what? How is Star Wars Galaxies any less in the Star Wars Universe than this game?  I don't get it.

Hi.  I'm the f13 resident Star Wars fanboy.  I know exactly what a Yuuzhan Vong is.  It's a fucking retarded plot device used to sell reams of shitty books to the "as bad as Trekkies" segment of Star Wars fandom.   Fuck them, and fuck the EU.

I sense... much anger in this one...

First, I don't care about the EU that much.  I don't like it, but I also don't hate it.  They're just some books; I just don't have any kind of emotional connection to them one way or the other.  But Star Wars is iconic.  Even people who know almost nothing about sci-fi know about Darth Vader and can quote Yoda, but they don't know who the Yuuzhan Vong are.  I'm aware that the books sell fairly well for books.  They are nowhere near as popular as the movies.  The movies are popular enough that Jay Leno or Jon Stewart can make a reference and be confident that people will get it; the NJO has nowhere near that kind of universality.  So why focus a game around them?  If you want your game to be popular, you don't want to exclude the people who haven't read NJO.  And if you don't care about popularity, why not just write your own MMO setting where you don't have to worry about all this licensing and continuity baggage, and you can set it without having all these built-in problems (like Jedi unbalancing combat)?

Number two:  The Yuuzhan "philosophy and cultural practices" are going to be a bunch of guys standing around going "ROFL, chuk noris could kick darth vaders ass with 1 kick lol"  You know this; you've played enough games to have seen it.  I'm sure their ideology was interesting in the books, but how well is it going to carry in to an MMO?  Outside of a few bits of lore and some NPC text, you have no control over what your player is going to say or hear from other players.  That's why I'd advocate using Vader and the other icons of the series.  People already know what they are, so you won't have to explain it, the way you would with the Yuuzhan Vong.  I'm not saying that the EU sucks or anything, but it's not as recognizable as the movies are.  I mean, unless I'm mistaken, we haven't even seen a lot of the characters in NJO.  We don't have their pictures, just their descriptions.  So when someone logs on and sees Overlord Shimrra, they're not going to know who he is, even if they have read the novels.  But if they log on and see Vader, everyone knows who they're dealing with.  This isn't some slam against the series or anything, it's just not as recognizable, and we're dealing with MMO players, who click past everything that can possibly be clicked past, so any chance we have to inject atmosphere to the game that doesn't require them to read something, I suggest we take.


Well, sorry to sound grumpy.  I apologize for crushing your dreams.  But if you want to write a story about your character from Star Wars Galaxies or KOTOR, nobody is stopping you.  Many people have already done that.  I just don't get the importance you put on it being "official."  This dramatic, defying the odds stuff happens every day in every MMO, and it's interesting to the people playing.  That's enough for them, and it's enough for me.  It does sound a bit pie-eyed to believe that one day, I could be the next Luke Skywalker, because I really rocked in an MMO or something.  If you're having fun playing the game, I'd say that's enough.  That's the point of the game.  I don't need George Lucas to come down and tell me I'm a credit to the license or anything; that seems completely outside the scope of the design, like it's not even something that should be considered.  It's like desigining a restaurant with the express purpose of introducing aspiring actors and actresses to movie producers.  Maybe it would happen, but it's not something you'd work around as a goal.

And yes, if I was designing a Star Wars MMO, it would probably not be set in the EU.  But I happen to like Star Wars.  I liked the characters, I liked the ships, I liked the setting, and I'd like to see a good MMO of it.  Maybe that would happen in the EU, I'm not saying it wouldn't, but I don't think that we should just trash the original trilogy because it's been done.  Yes, it has been done.  It was called Star Wars, and I liked it.  That's why I want to see more of it.

The EU is a cancer on the SW canon, which ensures that 95% of products based outside of the film periods will be shit. It contains too many lame plot devices, too many excuses to just say 'hey lets make jedi even more powerful, but inexplicably just for this moment in the plot', and far too many Solo-babies.

Oh good Gawd...

Shouldn't this have been posted at mmmorpg.com or bioware.com?

So I guess that, if Bioware makes a SW MMO, I shouldnt expect to see you guys playing it since you hate the EU so much, eh?  :roll:


You guys are laughable..you talk big, but you'll be salivating the first time a new and fresh SW MMO is released....thats just plain obvious...I'll see you on the Bioware forums guys.... ; )

Sales figures for games like KOTOR and Jedi Academy prove that SW fans-as a whole- are about sick fo this original trilogy bullshit.

And just to further that though, a couple of you are sounding like tweakers in a rehab facility that cant get off the same shit you've been fed by dealers for the last 30 years....think about how that relates to the original trilogy...


Anyways- get off the EU aspect for a moment, and dive into what you think would be the perfect MMO and how these features correlate- what features would you take out (besides the gd EU, what would you leave in, why, etc.)

I think you're missing the point that most of the people here are only concerned with how fun the GAME actually is; no one gives half a rat's ass about the SW EU or whatthefuckever.

And if Bioware's MMO is placed in said EU (which I doubt), a fair number of people here will at least give it a shot, because we're interested in Good Games. The EU is irrelevant.

See below for answer.


DING DING DING DING!!!

Hmm..so THATS the reason all the features and gameplay elements I went into detail about were ignored, and the arguments went straight to the EU factor?

You guys are absolute retards...get your statements straight before trying to bark at someone...seems like you're actually the ones missing the point of the thread...

No.

You're not saying anything that hasn't been said here, bioware.com, the official swg forums, mmorpg.com, or any other gaming site.

You're not saying anything new.

Try not to cry anymore, ok?  It's unbecoming.   Just take your ball and go home.  It's a tired franchise that they're trying to milk every last penny out of it.  SWG/SOE and to a large degree LA have pretty much ruined any new SW MMO for the next 5-10 years which pretty much means you'll never see one again.

Wow, way to make friends and influence people, hoss.  None of your gameplay elements are innovative.  Moreover, you spent so much time going on and on that most people likely only read your "back of the box marketing speak" summaries.  Why?  Because it was a tedious read.  This doesn't even come close to being an adequate design document and so what are they supposed to say?  You have a class based system with swappable bonus skills.  So yeah, that's about half the diku market right now.  You have levels.  Your most innovative and interesting ideas are related to character creation and clothing and item customization.  Those are actually rather nifty.

What would have been a better approach, IMO, would have been focusing on things like ship boarding, the customizing, etc.  And only that.  Seriously.  Sixteen races?  Whoop-de-freakin-shit.  You spent so much time sucking the EU's cock that you forgot to parse your mega post down to the most important, salient points.

And now, when people latch onto your EU-fellating post, you call them retards.  WTG, Einstein!  Maybe we can make a page for you on Wookieepedia as the biggest asshat to ever post a game idea, then flame those who respond to what seems to be the main theme of your post.  We could call you Darth Clownshoes.  It'd be fucking epic.  At any rate, when you main thesis is "ZOMG AN EU GAME WOULD ROX," and you develop all of your ideas from there, expect people to address your main thesis.  I know it's a shocker.  But, ironically enough, that's how writing works.  You see, you posit a main thesis, then support that with other detail.  People then address the main thesis first, because, you know that's why it's called a MAIN thesis.

If you expected constructive-criticism mollycoddling, maybe you should have presented your idea to your game design class at fucking DeVry.  For fuck's sake, even in my advanced poetics workshops in college, people's work took infinitely more flak than your game design screed.  Nobody went home and cried, or called people retards.

In summation, grow a pair, de-sand your vagina, and learn to present your ideas in a format that gets people to address the ideas you want addressed.  If you want them to focus on your game design ideas, then WRITE ABOUT THOSE FIRST.

Either that or go fap it to a picture of Leia in the gold bikini. 

Don't be an asshat.

I'm trying to play some Odin Sphere, so don't make me come back here and SirBruce your post. Just move on.

I'll just paste something I said in another thread.


This way, you can do whatever the fuck you want.  Want some Jedi?  Sure, Luke is rebuilding the order and is taking applications from newbs.  Sith too?  Okay, (new villain here) has claimed the vacant title of Sith Lord and wants newbs to be his minions.  Neither one?  Fine, Luke isn't hiring right now and the Sith are all dead.

You want a faction-based PVP war with roughly-equivalent sides?  Okay, hit the "START MMO" button just as Admiral (new villain) has taken control of the failing, decapitated Empire and somewhat stabilized it at a point where it's roughly equal in size to the good guy's republic.  You want three or more sides?  Invent something.  A bunch of competing successor states splintering off of a dying empire is perfectly believable.

It's not quite as "iconic" as the original trilogy era, but it's a hell of a lot easier to manage.  Besides which "It starts right after the movies end!" seems like a pretty simple, marketable concept.  You still have Han, and Luke, and Chewie and all them around, and you're not bound by a bunch of faggoty EU Yuuzhan Vong shit.

There were a vast quantity of SW MUDs that existed in that exact setting and were quite successful at doing it. I thought that's what they'd do with SWG, but by the time it was going into development I was just happy that it wasn't going to be during the prequels.

In a related matter, those Star Wars muds are probably still a hell of a lot more fun than SWG, at least for Wars fans.

The reason the rest of that masturbatory claptrap was ignored, was that it's all been covered before enormous detail, in threads that don't have an opening post that is far too long, meandering, and random.

Take a look at the other threads on this subforum that got going properly, most of them try to cover some specific aspect of gameplay or some specfic system and discuss it properly. If you want to talk about something as general as this, you still need to cut the waffle; and if you really must rehash old discussions like 'everyone on a single shard plz!' at least make they effort to understand the counterargument which has been made about a gazillion times and say why you disagree.

Somebody forgot to put on his Nomex suit after titling his post "The Perfect SW MMO".

Putting together these sorts of wild-eye feature lists is a trivial exercise that has nothing to do with how fun the game will be. It's also the path that leads to games like Vanguard, which on paper, looked to be the greatest fantasy MMO that would ever be created in our lifetimes.

Must have been some very impressive looking paper.

That's a negative, even on paper Vanguard had both Brad, and corpse runs ;) .

But but it had hit locations (anybody remember that feature?) and trees you could debuff! If only they had the time and money to put it all into the game -- it would've been awesome!

GOLD.

Does it matter what it says when it makes me feel like this?

(http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20021223_05_mistake.gif)

I spent half of this thread wondering why are people bashing the European Union and what does it have to do with Star Wars.

Happily, my posts apply to both  :-D

Do the Sales Figures for these games reflect the fact that the EU is what "SW fans" want or the fact that these were good games?  The last "good" OT game to be released was X-Wing Alliance.  There have been no good prequel games (except for possible Racer and perhaps Republic Commando) and the EU has not been a golden touch by any stretch of the imagination: Obi-Wan, Shadows of the Empire, Bounty Hunter to name but a few.

Sadly what it reflects is that these games were released with 'star wars' written on the box.

And have any OT games at all been released since XWA?

(JK2 was post-OT EU bollocks)

AFAIK The only good Star Wars computer games ever are the XWing / TIE Fighter series, Dark Forces, Dark Forces 2 (Jedi Knight 1), and Kotor1.

But I don't think anyone is denying that people will buy shit with EU crap in it. However, since we're a bunch of elitist pricks, we still get to turn our collective nose up at anything we damn well like. This is not IGN.

I lol'd.

Empire At War (didn't play it - crap by all accounts)
Force Commander (had potential but was buggy and had an awful interface)
Galactic Battlegrounds (OT and Ep. 1. I found it a little dull but should probably revisit it.)
Battlefront/Battlefront 2 (both OT and prequels - enjoyable but not great)
Rogue Squadron 2 and 3 don't count because they were only released for Gamecube.
Lego Star Wars 2 (Striving for one of the best Star Wars games evah! Fact.)

JK1 was post-OT too (the expansion for JK (Mysteries of the Sith) definitely was - it had Mara Jade and a load of EU related stuff from the first Zahn trilogy) - "no lightsabre wielding dudes in OT timeline at any point, thank you very much" was Lucasarts' official stance which is why Dark Forces was OT but sequels weren't.  Why this went out of the window with SWG is simply pandering to the drooling masses who wanted to have a lightsabre.  And to cash tie in on the prequels.  
I was thinking about it earlier and to date I don't think there has been a decent strategy game based in the OT timeline.  Attempts, yes, but most of it has been unplayable.  Rebellion/Supremacy anyone?

On topic - one of the problems I have with this "design" is that it still permits player jedi.  The only way they can be implemented is as an 'alpha' class which would defeat the purpose of any meaningful pvp with anybody who wasn't a Jedi or Vong.  So all those who wanted to be smugglers or bounty hunters or regular troops would still be second class citizens.  

The genuine honest to goodness answer to that is that lucasarts licensing people had an established policy that canon is interpreted strictly for single player games, but doesn't matter a damn for multiplayer games.

This is also the publically stated reason why Kyle Katarn's lightsaber changed colour for single player JK2, but also why in multiplayer you can have any damn colour you like.

It might sound comical, and I don't know if it still applies today, but at the time of SWG and JK2 design - those were the rules.

EDIT
And now you mention it DF2/JK1 was post-OT you're right. It opened with a discussion between KK and Mon Mothma, who had apparently been promoted to president on the grounds that there are no other politicians with speaking parts in RotJ. Or something. Also, the multiplayer game had yasalami...yamatahari...yasamarafati....yamaharty.... stupid EU bollocks lizards that stopped jedi spells working.

Why, because they looked uber while tearing up piles of "Roger-roger, derpty derp!" battle droids?  In game terms those things are just newbie mobs.  Jango Fett, on the other hand, is a well-equipped PC in game terms, and he held his own just fine when Obi-Wan tried to gank him on the landing platform in Episode 2.

We saw plenty of Jedi killed by regular people in the prequels.  Balancing them for PVP wouldn't be that hard.

EDIT:  Just wanted to add, they're a melee class for chrissakes.  Give the non-Jedi classes a couple of good root/snare effects and you're halfway there.

It's also true to say that nothing in the OT insists that Jedi can, for example, throw super star destroyers out of orbit by concentrating really hard. Or travel through time.

However, that's the power level people expect because of shitty EU bollocks.


With apologies to whoever posted that long ago and far far away.

What? Jango Fett held his own against Obi Wan because baby Boba was firing at Obi-Wan with Slave One's cannons.   Highly equipped bounty hunter plus spaceship cannot defeat Jedi.  Highly equipped bounty hunter fires a fucking missile at Jedi without killing him.  (In Lego Star Wars, you get to force push the missiles back at Jango Fett because, you know, you're a Jedi and can do that)  Eventually, highly equipped bounty hunter gets wtfpwned by single Jedi in one stroke.  As does Zam Wessel at the beginning of the film.  Highly equipped Boba Fett also gets his gear destroyed by noob Jedi in ROTJ.


Examples?  The Jedi in the arena at the end of AOTC are ganked by hundreds of droids.  The Jedi who are purged by Order 66 in ROTS are shot in the back (i.e. ganked) by groups of clones.  I can't recall a single example of a Jedi being killed by a regular person, one on one, in any of the prequels.


Melee with ranged saber throw, ranged force throw, ranged force choke, ranged force lightning...  root/snare = ability to bring down a walkway/column on your enemies.  They're also melee with close to 100% ranged mitigation.  (IIRC - didn't they actually have 100% ranged mitigation in SWG at one point?  I also seem to remember that got nerfed pretty damn quickly!)

We haven't even discussed the aspect of "Master" Jedi/Sith yet.  Sidious killed what? three or four "master" Jedi in a single AOE attack.  

The whole point of Jedi is that they're an alpha class.  Nerfing their abilities to make them balanced one on one with "regular" classes defeats the point of them being Jedi, of having attunement with the Force (or being infested with midifoozles depending on your preference).  

EDIT - because Eldaec posted first.

I nearly mentioned something about the fact that in the EU Luke used the force to bring an AT-AT to it's knees (Dark Empire?) but decided not to.  But Yoda could lift an X-Wing and The Emperor could hurl those Senate platform things around quite easily so that's probably not so far fetched. 

Also, to confuse matters, it was Zahn who created the planet Coruscant as being the capital of the Republic and Dash Rendar's ship did feature in the Special Edition bollocksy version of Ep IV. 

Well what you could do is make every non-Jedi combat class a pet class, that way to beat a Jedi you would need your own character an a couple pets. But then that much pet-herding would get annoying after a while...

What would probably be better is to have basically everyone be a Jedi since that would probably make a lot more people happy than having no-one be a Jedi or only letting a small slice of your playerbase be Jedi.

A simple solution would be to make Jedi/ Sith a non-playable class, and automate their involement in a handful of quests/ encounters.  Then make each GM either a Jedi or a Sith, and allow them to become involved in the sphere/ shard/ server game through in-game events.

Example: GM Cyndre is instead Jedi Cyndre or Darth Cyndre.  If you see me, you know I am a GM.   If you violate the TOS I come in and fuck you up, followed by a ban.   Occasionally, I join a player event as the one jedi amidst a few hundred players battling [insert nerdy reference here]

As far as demographics and power distribution, the gm to player population would about equal what one would expect from Jedi/Sith to 'normal hero' in the books/ movies.

Here it is, MY WIP STAR WARS MMOG design document.  Please keep an open mind and realize that this is incomplete and suggestions ARE welcomed!  Thanks!

PS, Humor me on the Prestige System. ;)

http://www.geocities.com/enhxko/mmo_idea.html

STAR WARS™ FPSMMORPG

Overview and General Outline

OBJECTIVE

The objective of this outline is to present an idea for a First Person Shooter Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.  Even though this outline is tailored for a Star Wars Theme, it could easily be modified to work for any other theme.

 GENERAL OVERVIEW

The principles behind this idea were to find ways to reduce development coding time so that more time could be spent on artwork driven content.  Additionally, great care has been taken to establish a new system of character development and professions that are always balanced with respect to the choices a player makes.  It is beyond the scope of this text to establish the intricate relationships between every one of the various systems in place in the game.  One must take a step back and try to visualize the evolution of a character given the current restrictions.  It is also improper for one to assume a restriction exists without an explicit statement of such restriction being listed.

My thoughts is that if you can provide an MMO community with the tools to drive their own content for the game, then there would be no need to spend valuable development time on quest and mission driven content (which is both costly and time consuming).  This enables developers to focus more on the “Look and Feel” of the game so that players are more deeply immersed in their game and have more content to explore and/or utilize for strategic purposes.

Consequently as a result of this idea, players learn to work together as a team to accomplish goals.  This is something that has, to a great degree, been lost in modern RPG games.  Give players the tools and let them decide what happens in the story next.  Too often, developers attempt to control the game they have created.  This takes a great deal of enjoyment from the player experience.  Generally things are then made worse when developers attempt to change the game to better cater to the complainers.  This takes away game stability.  Develop a game, stick to the system, and let the player community deal with the complainers using the tools you’ve provided them with.

Note - A reference to ‘Character’ that is not specified means any Player Character or NPC.

 CHARACTER PLAN

There are two Primary Pools utilized in this FPS system.

1.      Health - The health of a player is represented by aa value between 0 and 1000 that is the same for all characters of that same race.  This number is recorded internally and is represented to the player in a bar of 0% to 100%.

2.      Stamina - The stamina of a player is represented by a value between 0 and 1100 that is the same for all characters of that same race.  This value caps for most players at 500.  Players start with 100 Stamina and it is increased by 100 for each Agility Level they gain up to Agility Level 4.  From there, this value is increased by 100 for each Jedi Rank level achieved.  This number is recorded internally and is represented to the player in a bar of 0% to 100%.

 *The exception to the values above are situations in which the number is modified by a race or profession driven modifier.  The percentage presented to the player is scaled appropriately.

 There are two Primary Stats utilized.

Strength - This stat controls the physical strength of a player which determines whether their commutative strength, together with any other players, is/are capable of moving a movable object.  This stat also determines a Character Players Aim Steadiness with ranged weapons and is the value that increases their chance of scoring a “Critical Hit” on another Character.
Agility - This stat accounts for the defensive value for a character when it is not overridden by another value (such as an Armor rating).  This stat also directly affects a characters ability to change direction, jump height, running speed, and damage mitigation (how likely they are to receive a “Glancing Blow” from an attack).
 
*The Max Primary Stat Values are (not including innate and modifiers):

Strength = 6
Agility = 4
 
*Every 3 months a player is given 1 point that they can either apply to their Strength or Agility stat value.

 There are two Secondary Stats utilized.

Armor - This is simply the armor rating value of the armor a character is wearing on a scale of 3-5.  The defensive value of a character is the higher of the Armor or the Agility numbers.
Force-Sensitivity - This is a series of rating starting at Agility Level 3.  This value controls what Force abilities are associated with a character at that level.
 
*All Characters enter the world with the following Secondary Stats (innate and modifier bonuses not withstanding):

Strength = 0
Agility = 0
Armor = 0
Force = 0

CLASS SYSTEM

            Here’s another first for an RPG (I think).  It’s based off of similar systems which decide how other NPC’s treat you (often referred to as a Reputation System).  The “Reputation” system for determining friendly/enemy alignment is contained within the Faction system.  However, it is more fundamental then most because it’s done as Boolean Yes or No (of whether a player is a friendly or not).  The class system, however, uses a Prestige System.  The system uses the following 100 point scale:

0-49 = Third Class
50-79 = Second Class
80-100 = First Class
 
Class will determine what kind of access you have to prestigious areas of the game world.  So, in a way, it affects what kind of game content you can access.  In this way, it encourages players to work towards achieving First Class so they can have full access.  In some cases it may affect more of how you access content whether then if.  For instance, a First Class citizen may be able to land in a good part of town while a second class citizen is forced to land in a scummier part of town and a third class citizen may be barred from landing altogether.  At first glance, this seems a bit steep, but its purpose will be revealed through the rest of this outline.

 Prestige Points are given and taken away in the following manner:

10 Prestige Points will be granted to each player per month.
1 Prestige Point is deducted for each word of profanity a player uses.
1 Prestige Point is deducted for slaying an unarmed civilian (NPC).
5 Prestige Points are deducted for slaying an unarmed Player.
 
*Players are not allowed to unequip weapons while in combat.  Upon death, if unarmed, a player gets an option to Report the crime to the authorities.  If the player chooses ‘NO’ then nothing happens other then them waking up in the nearest cloning facility.  If the player chooses ‘YES’ then the player who slayed them will receive a 5pt deduction.  Five of these types of crimes reported in this manner will result in a Bounty being placed on the offending player.  In this manner, the system allows the players to handle grievers.  If players want to bully unarmed players, then they’ll have to deal with the Bounty Hunters that come after them.

 RACES

I’m approaching Races a bit out of the norm.  The reason I chose the following races and statistic bonuses was to develop a way to ‘coach’ the player base into a racial depiction that is similar to that of the Star Wars universe.  One could call it racial discrimination (and, indeed, that would be the first complaint given from a player base on the system), but the focus of the game is more on the game itself and not the players appearance.  Bare in mind that players love to differentiate themselves from other players and this system will allow them to do just that without throwing the combat system out of balance.

 HUMANS

·        Alderaanian (Leia) - 1st Class Citizen (80) - Stamina Stat Bonus

·        Eriaduian (Tarkin) - 1st Class Citizen (85)- Stamina Stat Bonus

·        Nabooian (Padame) - 1st Class Citizen (90)- Stamina Stat Bonus

·        Corellian (Han) - 2nd Class Citizen (70)- Health Stat Bonus

 WOOKIEES

·        Chewbacca - 3rd Class Citizen (20)- Strength +2 and Health Regeneration Bonus

 MON CALAMARI

·        Ackbar - 3rd Class Citizen (45)- Innate Engineering Repair Ability

 TWI’LEK

·        Oola - 2nd Class Citizen (60) - Stamina Regeneration Bonus

 RODIAN

·        Greedo - 3rd Class Citizen (40) - Innate Greater Field of View

 BOTHAN

·        Borsk - 3rd Class Citizen (35) - If a Spy, does not have to be “Introduced”

 TRANDOSHAN

·        Bossk - 3rd Class Citizen (25) - Strength +1, Innate Armor =1, & Health Regen Bonus

 GRAN

·        Ree-Yees - 3rd Class Citizen (30) - Innate Greater Max View Distance

 The following Races cannot be members of the Imperial Faction:

·        Wookiee
·        Mon Calamari
·        Rodian
·        Trandoshan
·        Gran

 The following Races cannot be members of the Rebel Faction (and thus also cannot become Jedi):

·        Rodian
·        Trandoshan
·        Gran

 *NOTE - Other then the Prestige system, race benefits are not incredibly beneficial.  They are there to help balance out the system from an “on paper” perspective to head off complaints of imbalance (when there are none).  Yes, to a degree, people will feel like their race of choice is being penalized in some form or another.  Customer Relation Devs should remain cool and reinforce that we are attempting to keep the Star Wars feel of a mostly human population (from the prospective of the GCW).  However, they should tell them that they should pick the race that they like and/or believe would be the most fun to play, regardless of any penalties.  The same should apply to their choice of professions.

EXPERIENCE

            There are no experience points (XP) or levels in this setup.  This idea is moving away from that style of game play which only serves to promote “grinding”.   Player Characters instead advance through the age of their character and through ranks in factions.  Once Player Characters “Grind” their way to the top level in the traditional play style, there isn’t anything left for them (no “end game”).  In this play style the game is centered more on community and relationships then it is in becoming the most “uber leet” player.  This idea of “community play” comes from the relationships seen in Star Craft, Battlefield 1942, and other similar clans where there is an even playing field and a person’s “fame” comes from their own personal skill and what they contribute to their clan.  This is distinctively different from traditional mmo systems where it comes down to who can get to the highest level first and/or manipulate the best skill template.  This creates a huge void between veteran players and new players that will never stand a chance to challenge them.  In this system, even a new player can potentially become famous overnight by putting a veteran player in his/her place.  But don’t worry, even veteran players receive a bonus for their investment & loyalty to the game without creating the huge gaps that exists in today’s mmo’s.

 PROFESSIONS

            Like experience, this system also does away with skills and skill trees, etc.  Instead, each profession gives a player character bonuses to be more effective in the profession they have chosen.  Everyone enters the world as a Civilian (with no profession).  You can acquire a profession by speaking with the appropriate Profession Trainer who will make you perform a quest series that will teach you how to hone your skills.  You must complete this series each time you attempt to acquire the profession.  Primarily, this is to prevent players from dropping and reacquiring professions out of convenience.  This is similar to a “Timer” system that some game styles utilize.  However, in this way, the time it takes to reacquire the profession will depend largely on the Player and not a set timer.  Yes, they will still complain, but if Devs take the time to explain the mechanics and insist that they favored that over a timer system, players will tend to understand and go along with it (even if they don’t like it).  They must know that it is out of fairness that the system is designed that way.  You are not required to be in a profession to perform actions associated with the profession.

Every Player is capable of performing any action associated with any one profession without explicitly training in that Profession.  However, training in a specific profession makes a Player Character more proficient and likely to succeed in a task if he or she is properly trained in it.  Again, this is representative of a real world simulated situation.

 The following two rules also apply:

1.      Everyone can acquire up to two Professions.
2.      Faction Alignment is counted as a Profession.

 Since faction allow advancement and other benefits, it is only fair for it to be designed in this way.  There are a couple instances where these rules are circumvented, but the reasons for this were necessary and do not interfere with balance.

          SPY

·        Spies have a Strength Modifier of -1 but their Strength cannot fall below 0.
·        A spy can “pose” as any member of a faction without actually joining said faction.
o       To gain “credentials” for any faction, the spy must first be “introduced” to a prospective faction recruiter by a Player Character of that faction.
§         The Factional Player must be within x distance of the recruiter when the spy attempt to ‘gain credentials’.
§         ‘Gain Credentials’ has a 10% chance to fail for each player character of that faction within x distance of the recruiter up to 55%.
·        10% for the first player and then +10%-n for each additional player.
§         If ‘Gain Credentials’ fails, the spy receives an enemy flag from that faction.
o       Spies may rise in rank like any other player member of that faction provided that they fulfill the appropriate profession requirements.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Spy + Commando = Assassin
o       Spy + Smuggler = Information Broker
o       Spy + Leader = Infiltrator

 * Spies should exercise extreme caution when attempting to ‘gain credentials’.  Nearby faction members may decide to place a bounty on the head of a would-be infiltrator if caught.

 SMUGGLER

·        A smuggler can conceal contraband and slice various types of terminals.
o       Smugglers may develop ‘contacts’ (such as Player Information Brokers) that can provide them with fake manifest or ship registry transponder signals.
o       Smugglers receive an 80% reduction in the time required to temporarily change (‘mask’) a ships registry and electronic cargo manifest transponder signal.
o       Smuggler receive a +25% bonus to being ‘clean’ when their cargo is scanned for contraband.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Smuggler + Commando = Gunslinger
o       Smuggler + Pilot = Runner
o       Smuggler + Spy = Information Broker

 * Smugglers should use extreme caution when purchasing information from any Player in regards to Manifests and Ship Registries.  You never know when they may sell you out.  Of course, that reduces their chances of repeat business. ::smuggler grin::

PILOT

·        Pilots are certified to fly any Ship or Combat Vehicle.
o       Operates Ship and Combat Vehicle maneuverability at 100% effectiveness.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Pilot + Engineer = Flight Tech
o       Pilot + Smuggler = Runner
o       Pilot + Bounty Hunter = Tracker

 * Non-Pilots can not own their own ship.  Non-Pilots operate Ship and Combat Vehicle maneuverability at 80% effectiveness.

 DOCTOR

·        Doctors have a Strength Modifier of -1 but their Strength cannot fall below 0.
·        Doctors heal wounds and help return players to their otherwise normal self.
o       Doctors may resuscitate those that have not been dead longer then 10 minutes.
§         Doctors are limited to carrying no more then 5 resuscitation kits at a time.
o       Doctors must be very close to a Character to heal their wounds.
§         Self-Recharging medical kits are used.
§         The heal rate is cumulative.
o       Doctors provide a cumulative +5% decrease to the time required to research “Medical Breakthroughs”.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Doctor + Commando = Combat Surgeon
o       Doctor + Engineer = Bioengineer
o       Doctor + Bounty Hunter = Mad Scientist
* As a support role profession, resuscitation and medical kits require certification which can only be obtained by adopting Doctor as a profession.

LEADER

·        Leaders provide additional strength and increases confidence to their subordinates.
o       While at a base or ship Command Room, Leaders provide a +1 Strength modifier for all Commando Characters of the same faction present at the same base or ship (non-cumulative).
o       While not at a base or ship Command Room, Leaders provide a +1 Strength modifier for all Commando Characters of the same faction that are within 10m of the leader (non-cumulative).
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Leader + Spy = Infiltrator
o       Leader + Commando = Squad Leader
o       Leader + Faction = Officer

 * Leaders play an important role in factions as they are they primary Strategist and mission givers.  Leaders should be careful when entering combat as they may quickly become a target to eliminate their modifier to their Commando ranks.  If you want to join the officer ranks of a faction, then choosing Leader as a profession is the right choice.

 ENGINEER

·        Engineers have a Strength Modifier of -1 but their Strength cannot fall below 0.
·        Engineers build, repair, research, & dismantle.
o       Engineers may build prototypes, terraform, & place structures.
o       Engineers may repair any equipment, weapon, component, ship, structure, or vehicle at a corresponding rate.
§         The repair rate is cumulative.
§         Self-Recharging kit required.
o       Engineers may dismantle any equipment, weapon, component, ship, structure, or vehicle at a corresponding rate.
§         The dismantle rate is cumulative.
§         Self-Recharging kit required (same as repair kit).
o       Engineers provide a cumulative +5% decrease to the time required to research “Engineering Breakthroughs”.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Engineer + Spy = Saboteur
o       Engineer + Doctor = Bioengineer
o       Engineer + Commando = Field Engineer

 * As a support role profession, repair kits require certification which can only be obtained by adopting Engineer as a profession.

 COMMANDO

·        Commandos have a Strength Modifier of +1.
·        Commandos are the backbone of any faction and are highly proficient with weapons.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Commando + Spy = Assassin
o       Commando + Smuggler = Gunslinger
o       Commando + Faction = ‘Elite’ Soldier

 * Commando’s do not receive the -1 Strength Modifier other character receive when wearing armor.  Commando military training gives them a strong edge in combat situations.  If you plan to join the enlisted ranks of a faction, then choosing Commando as a profession is the right choice.

 ENTERTAINER

·        Entertainers have a Strength Modifier of -1 but their strength cannot fall below 0.
·        Entertainers play Music or Dance to engage the mind of other players on a personal level.
o       Entertainers learn their choice of a new Song or Dance once every three months by returning to their mentor (trainer).
o       All Characters within 10m of a performing entertainer has their total defense value reduced by -1.  However, they receive a slight Stamina rate increase.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Entertainer + Spy = Undercover Agent
o       Entertainer + Faction = Contract Artist
o       Entertainer + Commando = Morale Officer

 * Entertainers are a social profession.  The wealthy will often sport one or more entertainers as a sign of their wealth and class.

 BOUNTY HUNTER

·        Bounty Hunters have a Strength Modifier of +1.
·        Bounty Hunters are the field experienced crime controllers of the galaxy.
o       Bounty Hunters may accept contracts to capture and/or transport OR kill ‘Marks’.
o       Bounty Hunters may use Seeker and Probe Droids to locate ‘Marks’.
·        COMBO PROFESSIONS
o       Bounty Hunter + Pilot = Tracker
o       Bounty Hunter + Commando = Terminator

 ·        Bounty Hunters must be registered with the Bounty Hunter Guild to gain access to Bounty files.  Bounty Hunters help to keep crime low while earning a substantial living.  However, Bounty Hunters are highly competitive and it’s not uncommon for multiple Bounty Hunters to fight over the same ‘Mark’.

 JEDI

·        Jedi are at the highest level of force awareness and must unlearn what they have learned.
·        Force-Sensitive Adapts receives pilot training.
·        Force Awareness is based on the Agility value of a player.
o       0 = No Awareness
o       1 = Faint Awareness
o       2 = Obvious Awareness
o       3 = Force-Attuned
o       4 = Force-Sensitive
o       5 = Force-Sensitive Adapt
o       6 = Jedi
o       7 = Jedi Master
·        To progress in agility past Agility 4, a Player Character must make a conscious choice to pursue the Jedi Profession by giving up their other two professions.
·        Agility 3 & 4 provide no Jedi abilities other then an increase to their “Luck” value (which only helps in mini-games such as gambling tables).
·        Force-Sensitive Adapts must complete specific quests to advance to Jedi.
o       There are five quests to be completed and upon completion, grant the following rank:
1.      Jedi Initiate
2.      Jedi Learner
3.      Jedi Apprentice
4.      Jedi Padawan
5.      Jedi Knight
·        Jedi must advance two Player Characters through the Jedi Tests to the rank of Jedi Knight.
·        Jedi may “fall” to the Dark Side by attacking and slaying another Jedi Guardian (Knight/Master) of the same rank or higher.
o       A Jedi that “Falls” before becoming a Master may become a Master by slaying 2 additional Jedi Masters (must be different Player Characters).
·        Jedi Guardians may not join the Imperial faction and Dark Jedi may not join the Rebel faction.
·        Any Jedi that performs a Jedi move or ignites their lightsaber within 30m of a 2nd class NPC will receive a permanent (reissuing) Jedi Bounty.
o       Jedi Bounties can only be removed by retiring from the Jedi profession.
§         Jedi may “retire” at any time.
·        Jedi who retire return to Agility = 4.
·        Retirement prevents a Jedi Bounty from being reissued.
·        A retired Jedi may become a Jedi again but must re-complete the ‘Trials’.

FACTIONS

            Factions serve as an additional profession in the game system.  It also serves to supplement the guild system used in most MMO’s.  The guild system has been abandoned for several reasons, some of which will be covered later on in this text.  One of the primary reasons is, however, that most guilds automatically align themselves with a particular faction.  So by combining theses ‘like fractioned’ guilds, you’ve eliminated a middle step in coding.  You also unify those guilds to make them more efficient.  It is noted that faction based professions in the past have been rejected in mmo’s because of their rigid system (especially those which are based around military systems).  There is also the idea that different players play-styles would not fit into a single faction which has been largely unified into a ‘guild-like’ substructure.  These issues have been addressed in the following system:

 Current factions are Rebel, Imperial, & Hutt (other neutral factions should be considered and added based on the need for economic longevity).
-Advancement
--The highest rank of any faction is held by a Live Event Dev until rank positions are filled throughout the faction.
--Promotions are given by superiors on a “Need-To-Fill” basis.
--Demotions are also given when needed.
--Non-Leaders Advance through Enlisted Ranks
--Leaders Advance through Officer Ranks.
--Pay-Grades (salary)
---Rank determines the weekly Salary a faction member receives which (like everything else) is deducted from the total funds of the faction.
-Faction Command Terminals
--Only Officers can access these terminals.
--The amount of access allowed is directly determined by the Rank of the Player Character.
--Unit Management
---Officers of an applicable rank can assign (reassign) members to unit forces.
----These forces can then be given applicable missions.
---Officers may grant applicable Salary Bonuses for completing special missions (or tours).
---An officer of a higher rank may change mission orders assigned by a lower ranking officer
-Purchase Requisition
--Any Officer may place a request for Purchase Requisition (PR) to acquire needed supplies, equipment, etc.  It is then sent to applicable superior officer who must approve it before it is sent off.
-Faction Units
--Faction units can be Army Regiments or Navy Fleets.
---Faction units act as spawn locations for those assigned to it.
---Faction units travel in Real-Time.
-Court-Marshal
--Player Characters may be Court-Marshaled for breaking Faction Rules of Conduct (which includes committing crimes).
--Player Characters go before the Faction Leader (or appointee) and their decision is final.
--Player Characters that are found Guilty are given the appropriate punishment which could mean demotion, expulsion, or both.
-Defecting
--Any Player Character may defect from their current faction by visiting their Faction Recruiter and selecting the appropriate option.
--Player Characters maintain their Rank.
--Player Character may join another faction at the same Rank they held with their previous Faction provided that there is an opening available.
---Requires the approval of a Superior Officer of that Faction.
 
*There are a lot of inner workings and game-play possibilities not discussed.  Factions will be able to adjust salaries to stretch budgets or grant bonuses to encourage good work.  Player Characters that have similar play-styles can request to be assigned to units with other players that play the same way.  Factions also have to worry about spies infiltrating their ranks.  The game style allows for real-world ways of discovering spies and getting rid of them.  The Real-Time movements of Faction Units facilitate Ambushes as well as opportunities for players to take some ‘leave’ time and explore their personal life-style (whether it’s a life-style of luxury, adventure, or an altogether alter ego).

 PARTY

            The part system replaces the traditional guild system.  It has been noted that in guilds, there are ‘click’ of roughly 6-8 players that commonly play together.  The others may associate, but the common problem in large guilds is that many players become inactive, play solo (even though they are in a guild), or play with their own ‘click’ of guilders.  So, in this game-system, players that frequently play together may form a ‘Party’ under the following rules:

A Party consists of a minimum of four players and a maximum of eight.
A Party acts as a Faction Unit would.  When players of a Party login, they login at the same location as the rest of the Party (the Party itself is a spawn point, but doesn’t facilitate cloning).
 
ECONOMICS

            There is a serious problem with the economics in MMO’s.  The problem exists in such that currency is generated by the system into the economy but is never effectively taken away.  Over time, this leads to inflation.  A weapon selling for 100 one day may be listed for 1000 the next month.  As inflation continues, casual players tend to get left in the dust and what meager amount of money they have continually diminishes in value (something which should never happen).  From a technical side, as the economy inflates and the cost of items increase, the calculations involved in making a transaction increases and the size of the returned values take up consistently larger memory allocations.  This isn’t healthy for a gaming server either.  To solve these problems requires a closed economic system utilizing the following rules:

 Fixed Economic System
Each faction is granted a specific amount of credits from the beginning of the game.
These credits are used for everything in the game from purchase requisition to paying salaries.
No form of credit generation is used.
 
* Please note that this adds an additional over-arching strategy to the game.  Not only can you join a faction and defeat other factions by eliminating their units, but ultimately it boils down to a premise similar to Monopoly where you eliminate an opposing faction’s financial ability to fight.

 FINAL REMARKS

            Unfortunately it is impossible to get absolutely every aspect and idea of the game design into a nifty little outline.  However, one of the most wonderful aspects of this design is that in many ways, it forces players to role play without really know that that’s what they are doing which only adds to the “feel” (and appeal) of the game.

Design by:  Alan Samuel

As the saying goes, this thread delivers.

As the acronym goes: tl;dr

Give us the one-page pitch, then if we look excited you can start coughing the vomit out in manageable chunks. Go full-on projectile like this and folks just run.

Nailing down specific aspects of gameplay and characters in a two page sell? Devoting more time to class descriptions than the online economy? You sir are a Visionary. You forgot to title it -- may I suggest The Vision -- for I feel that would be suitably epic. Geocities, indeed.

That's actually not a bad title. ;)

Oh for the love of god.....


/SKIP

If you're not interested in reading the whole thing (which isn't really that long since it's in Outline form), then you probably wouldn't have been interested in it after reading a 1 paragraph summary.  But, good advice none-the-less.  The basic gist (if you insist):

-Balanced Character system with the Illusion of Inbalance (inverse of most mmo's)
-No XP required.
-FPS Combat system.  <--that's a period in case you missed it.
--one key touch weapon change in mid-fight...like a normal FPS, with typical FPS HUD for simplicity.
-Engaging Player driven FIXED economy (zero to limited inflation in some markets).
-Prestige System
--Compliments Personal Character Development
--Helps restrict Jedi visibility in the Game World through natural means (player control)
--Attributing Social system aspect.
-Profession system optional (grants skill bonuses, but not required.  IE what you can do isn't restricted by your profession).
-Bounty Hunter system handles grievers, gankers, and complainers.
-Smuggler System helps to actually smuggle and smuggling has an impact on the economy and GCW.
--Also helps drive the Underworld economy.
-Intergrated military factions with paygrades and player controled RTS (Real Time Strategy).
-EVERY PLAYER gains in force the longer they play up until a certain point where they must make a conscious decision to follow the path of a Jedi.
--System naturally controled by bounty hunters and general Jedi haters.   8-)
-Spies can do TRUE undercover work.
+Many unlisted possibilities that players will figure out as they play.

For some reason, this is the only thing I ended up focussing on. 

Your prestige system needs more work.  If there is content that is only accessible to first class citizens, why would anyone ever want to select a third class race?  The only reason to choose a Gran would be if you're a hardcore roleplayer.  Otherwise, with your outline, it would take a player 5 months to get to be first class. 

Also what is this first class "prestigious" content you speak of?

The other thing I don't like about the prestige class is the losing prestige for killing unarmed opponents.  Tarkin destroyed a whole planet which would definitely put him into a 3rd class category but I bet he could get into any prestigious place in the galaxy.  Stormtroopers kill unarmed Jawas and moisture farmers (and, it could be inferred, suspected Rebels or Rebel sympathisers).

It's not that I think your prestige system is poor, per se, but I don't think it adds a level of Star wars-iness (?)

I do like that you've excluded alien races from being Imperials.  I'd go a step further and exclude twi'leks too.  But I would remove species restriction from the Rebels.  Adding another race like Zabraks that are humanoid enough to join the Imps might also be an option. 

Your profession system is too limiting aswell.  Han Solo was a Smuggler, an Engineer, a Pilot and, ultimately, factioned too.  How does your system account for that?


Who watches the watchmen?  Plus, earlier you said that "Bounty Hunters are the field experienced crime controllers of the galaxy."  Surely, in an Imperial ruled Galaxy, all Rebels are considered criminals and traitors.  Plus how does this go hand in hand with the fact that Jabba the Hutt, a crime boss, had lots of BHs in his entourage? 

Dammit, I'm a noob here too - maybe I should expound on my "idea" of a good SW MMO as well!

Almost everyone I've showed it to has pointed that one out...as I expected.

The idea is that the internal design of the game will influence role play and this is one of the ways it does it.  You wouldn't expect a first class citizen to do a lot of swearing.  Where as, you'd expect every other word from a 3rd class citizen to be a swear.[/quote]


There's advanatages and disadvantages to each class level.  Keep in mind that in this game, you can pull a weapon on anyone at any time.  A first class citizen would probably never be allowed into Jabba's Palace, because who's gonna trust one of those panzy ass prep boys anyhow, right?  Also, with Jedi, it's a lot easier to stay hidden in the underworld then in the more prestigeous areas.


In a nut shell, how you see the universe.  Will you see it as a clean formal place or an ugly smelly place?  It doesn't mean you can't acces those areas at all...it might just take a little more work and, do I dare to say, cunningness?  Again, it has largely role play value and little game play value in most cases, it's not something to stress over.


That's an excellent point.  There needs to be bonuses for officers per month and fraction of points taken away.


It needs revisiting, I'll agree there.  Largely, it was a way of limiting Jedi visibility to the rest of the players in the game for one.  For two, I wanted a way for socializers, such as entertainers, to have areas of the universe where they were less likely to get grieved.




Every Player is capable of performing any action associated with any one profession without explicitly training in that Profession.


The other Bounty Hunters.  The bounty hunters will MAINLY handle non-faction aligned players OR faction players in civilian clothes.  All Factions (rebels, Imps, Hutt) will be able to put bounties on players of the other faction.  All they need is a name.  BTW, surviving a Bounty Hunter attack will reveal the name of the person who placed the Bounty on you... :)

Hope that helped.  Thank you for your input!

The problem with a prestige system is that players will either a) consider it a major cockblock to their chosen playstyle, etc. or b) find a way to game it for max benefit.

ETA -- Also, the swearing thing is a bit silly, for lack of a better descriptor.  I get the overall point, but losing points for your speech just seems to be too much like Demolition Man and not enough like fun.

I agree and it may be something that ultamately gets taken out.  I'm still toying with it.  However, in saying that, I'm also playing with the idea of Prestige Sponsorship.  This would be where someone who is already First Class can sponsor someone who isn't and they receive like a 5-10 bonus per month to help them get up to First Class faster.  This would still not have much effect on the Jedi whom will still want to stay in mostly underworld areas.  Keep in mind also that this primarily only effects a handful of specific places within only a handful of cities and other places in the whole galaxy...

This is, after all, why I said to "humor" me on the Prestige system.  Most people will enjoy the underworld environments more, I think because that's mostly what you saw in Star Wars.  But, your right, I might take it out for players and just leave it in there for NPCs, which is really the primary trigger for Jedi visibility anyhow at this point...

Good feedback.  Keep it coming!

Did anyone else have to read that twice?

The profession system is kinda interesting... I'm curious about skill advancement; is it like WHFRP, where you need a profession to advance the skills in it, but afterward can change profession and keep the skills you raised?  Or is it just a bonus/flag especially for support classes who need the profession to use their skills?

--
Alkiera

It's a word, I swear! ;)

No XP.  No Skill Advancement.  Bonuses are only awarded by adopting the appropriate profession.  The Support classes, such as Engineer and Doctor, only require the profession for using repair kits and resuscitation kits AND for contributing to "Researching Breakthroughs".  Repair kits have specialized tools that allow you to repair faster (it's an All-In-One tool).  Otherwise, you have to switch between the correct tools to repair, create, and destroy stuff.  As for Doctors, the resuscitation kits are a "I-Click-On-You-And-You-Come-Back-To-Life" kit.  Anyone will be able to "Attempt" CPR on a fallen friend.  Otherwise, you don't need a "Profession" to pretty much do anything in the game.  You can even wield a lightsaber (if you find one) without being a Jedi...it just might not be of much use to you (no "Force Block" skill) as anything else but a huge cutting knife (which could actually come in handy).  8-)

I'm essentially removeing the "Profession X Required to do thing Y" aspect from the game.  So if you want to be Han Solo and fly a ship, slip cargo past a blockade, fight for the alliance, fix your ships, and stand toe-to-toe with a Bounty Hunter, you can!  The other important thing is, no more logging in for the first time and being surrounded by lvl 90 players that could kick your ass in just a couple of hits.  Now you can sign up for the game and instantly be capable of standing at least a fighting chance against veteran players.  Veteran players are rewarded with modifiers to their strength and agility skills (which help in accuracy and dodging).  It is also important to note that it would take someon exactly 1 year of committed play to be able to even think of becoming a Jedi (and that's if they commit every modifier bonus to agility), though they might find the trials very difficult to complete at even that point (which, they are not meant to be easy, anyhow...after all, the game isn't about Jedi's and only those with the appropriate Real-Life skills in using a mouse and keyboard will be able to make it to Knighthood, not that a player has to make it to Knighthood to reap the benifits of the lower Jedi "basic" force powers).

Oh please.  Boba fired those guns exactly once, early in the fight, scoring a near miss that sent Obi-Wan flying a few feet but otherwise did no damage at all.


The missile did manage to disarm Obi, who certainly didn't seem capable of reflecting it, regardless of what Lego has to say on the matter.  After that he was reduced to futilely trying to kung-fu Jango to death through his armor, while being towed around by that cable, decked at least once during the fisticuffs, dropped over a cliff, and so forth.


In a contrived situation that involved his jetpack being broken by a trampling rhino immediately beforehand.  Under normal circumstances (see the Obi fight) his reaction to a charging Jedi is to go "lol melee" and fly away, while continuing to shoot.


Jedi vs uber bounty hunter = tough, bruising fight
Jedi vs gank squad of clones = swift, ignominous death for Jedi

Sounds pretty balanced to me.  If Obi-Wan bitchslapped Jango in two seconds, or if we saw a bunch of Jedi actually suriviving those ganks, then maybe you'd have an argument.


All of which presumably cost mana (or whatever) in our game, and preserve balance by keeping them from being effortlessly kited to death in every PVP battle.


No MMO is going to let you pull walkways down on people anyway.


Unless they're hit with a disarm effect, like say a missile that has a chance to make them drop their saber.  And while they can mitigate, they can't use their other tricks while doing it.  Go watch the first fight in Phantom Menace.  You see Obi-Wan using some force pushes, but only when he's not being shot at and can get a hand free for the gesture.  When those roller-droids pin them down with constant fire, the Jedi don't own them with telekinesis, they run away.

So now our PVP Jedi has to drop mitigation to use any of the tricks that keep him from being kited endlessly.  And if he doesn't do something, eventually his opponent might crack his mitigation with a disarm.  Balance.


Mace was good at PVP, the other masters who died weren't.  Some of this shit has to be left up to player skill in the end.


Only if you think the purpose of Jedi characters is to enlarge the player's e-peen.

The real problem with having Jedi in SWG was that their were no generic jedi in the OT setting, Luke, Vader, and Palpatine are special cases and irrelevant for the purposes of building a satisfying game experience. The only other SW source material available to draw comparisons from (the prequels) is set in a time where there were almost no skilled non-jedi combatants (I'm ignoring EU for obvious reasons).

This is a big part of why nobody can convicingly explain how balance should work for them.

It's like making a WWII mmog asking how Jedi should work.

Here's the bottom line in three easy steps:

1 - You have Jedi in the game because people are going to want them.

2 - You balance Jedi against other classes because to do otherwise is fucking stupid in terms of game design.

3 -  You tell DraconianOne to STFU when he starts rubbing himself and bitching that Jedi need to be more uber.  People like that may fag up your game's official forums complaining about how they should be able to pwn, but they'll be the last to ever quit playing.

If your Star Wars MMO is set in the GCW and if you've got balls, you won't.  A KOTOR/KOTNR setting is better for that.

If you're going to have them in the game then from a game design point of view, yes, absolutely.  I totally agree with you.  Which is a shame because you followed it with


Did that make you feel big and clever?

Bite me!  You have absolutely no fucking idea!

To noone in particular:

Star Wars' greatest BH got wtfpwnt by a blind man with a glorified stick.

Case closed.

You can't have a Star Wars game then tell people they can't be Jedi.  No way around it.

And you're trying to tell me I can't be a first class citizen because I curse?  Two words:  Fuck that.  Solo was less than a first class citizen 90 percent of the time.

All of the above is too goddamned touchy feely reward to do gooders crap.  It's so open ended most players would get lost on their way.  Players need direction, they need to feel an entitlement in a sense of role in what they do.  The best thing you can hope to do is clone SWG's old 32+ profession system and give an allotment of points to spend with better balancing techniques.

Unless you make XvT, the MMOG. See, I'm a fucking genius.


Someone should make XvT Planetside. Based on a Freespace2 mod.

Now you see, I just designed a better MMOG than any of you, and using just 10 words. That's how fucking awesome I am.

Here's a picture of Darth Vader telling some Japanese schoolgirls how splenda my design is...

(http://www.nullschool.net/images/DarthVaderAndGirls.jpg)

Yes. You've hit the nail on the head.  There were, in all likelihood, no Jedi.

Ignoring the EU is slightly hazy here because the end of the Clone Wars cartoons segues straight into the beginning of the ROTS (explaining both how Grievous got that 60-a-day cough and how Anakin ended up with a scar down his face) but yeah, let's ignore them anyway.  

Here's the thing - if you take Jango Fett as being representative of the Bounty Hunter class then he didn't defeat Obi-Wan but did hold his own.  But Obi-Wan in AOTC was not a master jedi.  Both he and Anakin got pwned by Dooku with little effort and then Dooku got pwned to all extensive purposes by Yoda.  There's a definite hierarchy of Jedi abilities.  Bearing in mind his fight against Obi-Wan, what chance do you seriously think Jango Fett would have had against either Yoda or Dooku?  Or against Obi-Wan and Anakin together?  Mace Windu one-shot killed Jango in the arena after, as WUA rightly pointed out, he lost his jetpack.  He also lost his jetpack in the fight against Obi-Wan but still carried on fighting.  (An aside - you'd have thought Boba Fett would have learnt about this and invested in a better piece of kit - i.e. not one that would get set off by a stick wielding blindman!)

In terms of class design, I'd have to guess that we'd say that Jango Fett was a top level, Master Bounty Hunter with full Tier 5 raid bounty hunter armour or whatever bollocks.  Granted, he may have been a crap bounty hunter in SW terms but I reckon he was pretty shit hot and that was the point of him.  Obi-Wan, at best, was Jedi Knight level - not a Jedi Master.  So by my reckoning, in terms of game design, the level cap for a Jedi class would have to be equivalent of Jedi Knight to keep both game balance AND some adherence to Star Wars as we saw in the films.  

But we still have the problem of non BH/Jedi classes.  What about the clone soldiers who we can take to be master soldiers (being clones of the uber master BH Jango Fett because, you know, they were meant to inherit his combat aptitude and all) or commandoes or whatever the fuck you call the class?  Can one of these go toe to toe with a Jedi Knight?  I'll bet it's a case of "Computer says no!"  


This, unfortunately, is always going to be the case.  And it's this type of pandering to the player design thinking which will end up getting us a Balrog as a mob in LOTRO.  


I'd fucking play that and no two ways about it.

Except there'd always be people whining about how they should be allowed to be a Jedi and have extra skills in space...  :-(

There's nothing wrong with player Jedi.  Anyone that says different just likes to have their nuts smashed with a hammer.

However, said people that enjoy having said nuts smashed with said hammer that dislike player Jedi, but will 'allow' them want them on the premise they are difficult to play and even harder to get.  So, you know, basically it becomes an alpha profession, that is pretty much eventually required to have/be in order to compete.  The purist want powerful and hard and difficult, gamers want to be bad ass and l33t and ub3r, and never shall the two meet in a happy middle ground.

And we all know how that works out.








First class citizen....gimme a fuckin' break.  That's still chapping my ass...

Yes, that's exactly what I would tell you.  It's called GAME DESIGNED ROLE PLAY.  WHICH MEANS IT'S OPTIONAL!.  Damn straight Solo was less than a frist class citizen 90 percent of the time.  That's kind of the point...

BTW, first class is 80-100 points.   If you can't control your language usage to under 20 swear words a month OVER A VIDEO GAME in order to access some of the more prestigeous area (by access, I mean walk through the front door), then you've got some other serious issues you need to deal with...


SWG old 32+ prof system DID NOT WORK.  That's why they HAD to replace it.  It was a new professions flavor every month.  Everytime they "BALANCED" the professions, they just shifted it to a new template.  It was impossible to balance that system.  It was TOO complex.  We knew that was going to be a problem back in Beta.  They were using the "Illusion" of a well thought profession system to cover-up for their "Make-a-game-in-less-then-a-year-because-when-we-bought-out-Verant-and-fired-all-of-the-employees-they-deleted-all-of-their-work-they-had-done-over-the-previous-two-years."  There was nothing "Special" about that sytem other then the variety of choices and professions you could be.  Hell, guess what?  They've brought that aspect back.  However, that's not the point of this discussion...

So, all RPers are goodie goodies that have exquisite manners and impeccable linguistic skills?

Um.  Yeah.

I got no problem with RPers.  I'm an RPer.  More often than not, I'm a bad guy.  I trick noobs into coming up in space in my YT and then blow them out the airlock.   I'll triple incap you just to make you squirm.  I'm the bounty hunter that watches you duel then deathblows you without breaking a sweat to collect your bounty.  I'm the smuggler that steals your stuff and sells it elsewhere for more money.  I'll shoot your engines out to disable your ship and leave you stranded like a deer that just got hit by a truck.

First class citizenshit (not a typo) is stupid.  450 degrees on broil clownshoes stupid.  It's kind of like...No, it's exactly like the dark fucking wood elves or whatever that ramble on about the moon and it's mystical properties.  99 percent of RPers are BAD at it.  Or just toss around sexual innuendos and thinly vieled jokes at the nearest twi'lek dancer, who just so happens to be a slave who hates the Empire because they killed her parents, and she's getting revenge one cybersession at a time to pay for her way through "jedi school for twi'lek dancers who wear Leia's slave outfit from Ep VI".


Wrong.

It *could* work, if 90 percent of the rest of the game wasn't so fucked beyond repair (see Kosters mythical working HAM system).


Welcome to every fucking MMO ever made.  EQ?  Never was balanced.  EQ2?  Not balanced.  WoW?  Not balanced.  AO?  Not balanced.  L2?  Not balanced.  LOTRO?  Guess what?

Not balanced.

I'm going to clue you in on a myth that nearly everyone knows:  Balance in MMO's is a MYTH.  It never has happened, it never will happened.


We'll never know because all the underlying systems were broken (buffs, armor, weapons, HAM).  And you want to make it even more open ended?  What are you smoking, brotha?  People that get paid good money to figure this shit out - and haven't.  Noone has figured out how to make a balanced MMO.  Noone will.  Inherently, players are (collectively) smarter than the devs ever hope to be.  You can mask it as best as you can, but there_will_never_ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever__ever be a balanced MMO.  If it's FPS, the l33t kids trump the casuals/adults.  If it's traditional tab/autoaim/autofire combat, the skill is OUT of the players hands and in the devs. 

Min/maxers will ALWAYS beat the system. 


And your SW design document posted on a website that you've been working on for the last 10 years has all the answers? 

Not hardly.

Guess who pays the majority of the bills?

Players that want to be Vader, Luke, Mace, or Kenobi.

Anything else narrows your market too much and makes it niche.

Dooku easily incapacitated Obi-Wan both times they met.  Anakin, on the other hand, ripped Dooku a new asshole in Episode 3.  And yet, when Anakin and Obi-Wan had their fight later in the same movie, who ended up as a smoldering torso?  Winning a swordfight does not mean one is automatically an order of magnitude more powerful than their opponent.

Hell, Darth Maul owned the shit out of Qui-Gon, a Jedi Master, then got chopped in half like a dumbass by a padawan.

Gamewise, I wouldn't even make "Jedi Master" a strict matter of level.  I'd put a minimum level requirement on it, sure, but actually getting it would be based on some sort of feat.  Maybe PVP, maybe some sort of quest, maybe something else, who knows?  Maybe any of those things, and let the player choose.

Did you not miss the big bold OPTIONAL part???  Again, I'll reiterate, THE PRESTIGE SYSTEM IS PRIMARILY FOR ROLE PLAYERS, it has no MAJOR significance in the game.  IF YOU ARE A SMUGGLER OR BOUNTY HUNTER, IT'S ADVANTAGEOUS TO BE A 2nd CLASS CITIZEN IF NOT A 3rd CLASS CITIZEN ANYHOW.

What you described above is EXACTLY how i'd expect a smuggler and bounty hunter to act.  You are looking to deeply into a shallow system and drawing FALSE conclusions which is EXACTLY what I warned against.


Again, you haven't seen the system in action and are drawing FALSE conclusions.




Balancing a complex system of modifiers and skill trees?  Yes, it's a myth and cannot be done.  Review the design outline I posted above on this page (or follow the link for the same thing in a neater format).  It contains the following:

1.  Simplier design.
2.  System balanced by skill (based on FPS multiplayer games (ie. BF 1942, SW: Battlefront, etc)).
3.  Professions System optional for players.


The problem is that there has been way too much though into "control".  Kinda like when Leia said "...the more you tighten your grip, the more system that will slip through your fingers..."  Which is why, in my design, I've put full control into the players hands.  Bounty Hunters deal with the grievers, whiners, etc (even if it's another Bounty Hunter).


Eh, that website is more of a dump for random things.  Not that THAT has any relevance.  The Design document is fairly new and you would be far more effective if you asked questions instead of jumping to conclusions...

Regards

Le art.

(http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2551/threaddeliversxz1.jpg)

This was the only interesting post in this entire thread.

And here I thought that people who do that kind of thing in MMO's were just being complete dicks.  Apparently you're all just RPing complete dicks, and thus it's completely ok.

Yeah, pretty much.  Every game needs proper (player) villians.

God (or whatever in game diety you* subscribe to) help you if you're on the other side.  It's what makes it interesting. 

Though if you're a friend / guildy, I'll bend over backwards to try to help you - whether it's leveling, equipment, or money.

*you = people in general

That's what I like about my game design, it doesn't restrict what players can Do (even if it may influence how they do it one way or the other).  If you want to be a complete dick, go ahead!  Have fun and enjoy it.  BUT, don't whine when a Bounty Hunter drops you to the ground and as you're taking your last breath, he throws a note at you and says "Here!  My client left this message for you."  You read the note and it says, "Thanks for blowing me out that airlock, dickhead!  PS, give my regards to Hitler."

So, like, premium content, $45 per month, you can play Jedi, regular account, $15 per month, no can, and then balance their powers out anyway?

Or, option 2, sprinkle weak force powers through every class, and if the player wants to bring focus to their force side, they can join the Jedi Order or a Sith Master for training, but in the process give up the free will "do whatever you please" gameplay, because they'll either be restricted by the strict Jedi code or be a Sith's slave / peon.  And I mean, day in, day out, obey the quests and answer the calls or be punished.  Then throw in cool stuff like, if you fail a quest you get force-choked as punishment (permadeath) as a Sith, and / or Force-drained as a Jedi and moved to Dantooine to function as a farmer.

Sort of.  In my design, they can still "Do whatever they want".  They can also stop anywhere in the process before reaching Knighthood.  The trade off for Jedi powers, is that you don't get the bonuses you would have with specializing in a profession.

My expectations, is that a highly skilled, self-trained BH, could still take down a Jedi Knight if they caught them off guard.  So, Jedi would only be an "Alpha" class so long as they weren't /afk in a bad place or busy typing a message to their friends.  Living as a Jedi will be fun from a game-play aspect, but will suck during player dowtime because they'll be constantly looking over their shoulders...

GUYS HOLY SHIT

I FOUND THE SECRET MESSAGE

BIOWARE'S NEW MMO IS TOTALLY A STREET FIGHTER MMO

Aww, darn.  I thought it would take someone longer then that to figure it out. :(
(http://www.messengermods.com/data/media/102/Chun_Li__Yuna.jpg)

I literally lol'd.