f13.net

I've decided that instead of buying the bits piecemeal and assembling the thing myself this time, I'll buy the whole damn thing from the place where i get 90% of the bits from anyway (they're pretty much the cheapest place in town), and pay them the few bucks to assemble the thing and make sure it works.

I'm throwing it open to you guys, as while I kind of have an idea on hardware, and my nephew is also very helpful, neither of us is a patch on the combined might of f13 when it comes to this shit.


This is going to be a gaming computer, but I also intend to do a little bit of video editing with it. Not much though, so I imagine anything that can hendle today's games nicely will be able to edit decently.

I can't afford bleeding edge, so I'm going for the point of best bang/buck.

I know enough about many of the bits to know what I want in general terms, but when it comes to the specifics of current level of mobos, video cards, processors and ram, my knowledge falls down a bit. (a lot)

So, the things I definately want:

• A good power supply
  300-500gb HDD space
  2gb RAM at least
  Digital out on the video card
  Decent amount of video RAM
  A good processor fan without going OTT
  Extra fans if needed
  A legit, new OEM version of XP
  DVD Burner (pref. Pioneer)
  A seperate DVD-ROM
  
  
  Things I don't care either way about:
  
• Dual Processors
  AMD or Intel
  ATI or NVIDIA
  Sound Card or Onboard (super sound is not a factor in a room with 2 other PCs going)
  

.
My budget is AU$1400.
You'll be working with Australian dollars, which are kind of like Canadian dollars, except they buy less since we don't have the US just down the road.


ONWARD! (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/build.php?ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f)[/list]

You are in luck, Intel is releasing some new chipsets which means anything you buy right now is already obsolete and anything you buy with the new chipsets will be buggy.

Do you need a monitor?

Green ?

Yes, though after playing around with the configurator (which BTW is a POS since it doesn't show prices in the list) I now know that $1200AUS doesn't buy you much, especially given the markup at that site compared to something like Newegg.com so that new chipset stuff would mostly likely be out of his price range.

Don't need a monitor, I'll be getting that a couple of weeks after the machine. And not worrying about mouse and keyboard. Or speakers.

It will need to be chunky enough to support a decent WS monitor though.

On the topic of costs - using something like newegg simply isn't an option - shipping from the US to .au would be immendely expensive, and if something goes wrong with a component and I need to return it, I'm fucked.

As scary as it may seem, that site's store is pretty much the best deal/prices around in my city, and by extension, probably one of the best in the country. - as I've said before in various threads, we get hosed on prices for most stuff in this country.

After playing around with the prices and that site's comp builder a little more, I'm thinking perhaps the way to go for this machine would be to aim for the best bang/buck ratio on the processor for aroundabout the AU$200 mark. AMD seems to get you more in that vein. Honestly though, I don't know or understand enough about them.

Bleeding and even Cutting edge is out of my price range I'm pretty sure.

But I think I'll work out a way to up the budget to $1600, including the WINXP, so hopefully that can help a bit.

For $1232.00 you are looking at something like this (not shown are Win XP Pro OEM and Assembly charge):

(http://pandadesigns.com/f13/azazel_build_01.jpg)

here's a series of possibly-stupid questions (but, well, I don't know the answers):

What's the difference between IDE optical drives and SATA ones? Data transfer rate?

Is that the difference between the Lite-On Combos (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=49&products_id=21630&ccsid=59fb40ec70cc4191b0fafabdb988ea33) and the Lite-On Super Allwrite (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=49&products_id=21623&ccsid=59fb40ec70cc4191b0fafabdb988ea33) drives?

Since I like having a second optical drive in my computers, should I get a LiteOn drive? (thinking of a LiteOn since they come with Nero, etc, while the Pioneers are no-software OEM). 90% of all burning will be done via the Pioneer, though.

Since I've decided to add a few hundred dollars onto the budget, I'd like to upgrade a couple of the choices:
AMD ATHLON 64 X2 (AM2 65W) 4800+

more HDD space - do I go for
WD 500Gb 7200 16Mb Cache SATA 2 Hard Disk : $190.30
or 2x of:
WD 320Gb 7200 16Mb Cache SATA 2 Hard Disk: $105.60

add:
Basic FDD: $15

and since I've upped the budget I may as well include
Microsoft Basic Black Value Pack Keyboard and Mouse PS/2 (OEM): $27.50


Will the stock CPU fan be good enough?
Should I bump up the CPU to a faster one again?
I mean, I don't necessarily want to go out of my way to spend the full $1600, but on the other hand, I'll be using the computer for a long time, and so an extra day's pay or even two are a worthwhile investment. ($1600 is basically 3 weeks pay for me after tax, though)

thoughts?
(and a huge thank you!)

Cable.

No, the Super Allwrite can handle DVD-RAM discs.

Up to you. LiteOn is a decent brand.

Stock CPU cooler is fine, especially since you are getting a lower power (i.e. lower heat) version. However, you can get something like this if you want an aftermarket cooker and are willing to spend the extra money:

http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=75&products_id=19666

If you want something cheaper you can do some research on the Thermaltake TMG A1 or A2 to see if they are any good.

It's up to you, however prices on those AM2 CPUs will only go down until they get discontinued and then they'll go up again (temporarily). CPUs are a pain to swap out, though, so it might be worth it to spend a little extra now, especially if you would have to take it into a shop to have somebody else install it.

Aside from swapping out optical drives, adding more RAM or more HDDs, (and the odd internal dusting) I tend to leave well enough alone and just buy a whole new computer several years later. So I guess that decides the CPU question then.

But, what does (AM2 65W) mean compared to plain (AM2)? - I noticed that the CPUs higher then the 4800+ don't have the 65W in their names.


More dumbass questions:

Did you have any thoughts on getting 2 of those 320gb HDDs? I can't imagine any problem, and it seems a much better $/space ratio then to get the 500gb one?

Shouldn't be any issue with a Lite-On combo drive (probably) being IDE when other stuff like the Pioneer drive is SATA?

Shouldn't need an aftermarket fan if I don't intend to overclock the CPU at all? What about extra case fans to increase airflow?

The move is away from IDE and towards SATA drives, so getting a SATA optical drive is a little more future proof.... as if there is such a thing with PC hardware.

Getting 2 drives is actually an advantage I think, better value and gives you a number of raid options.

It can inconvenient to have things spread across two drive letters but some people actually prefer it that way.

No.

No you don't need an aftermarket fan unless you care about the noise. The case comes with a rear fan. If you get two hard drives you should consider getting an 92mm fan for the front to cool the drives.

That means that run at a lower voltage than the non-marked ones which means they draw less power and run cooler. The standard 4400+, which apparently they don't sell (or maybe AMD doesn't make them anymore), has a "TDP" of 89 W compared to the 65 W version they are selling.

I disagree with Trippy's assessment that buying an Intel right now would make it obsolete.

I don't see how you couldn't make a dual core computer right now and not have it last 3-5 years easy. Those processors are fast as a motherfucker. And worst case, get a motherboard that takes quad core and 1066 RAM also. That's an easy $2-400 upgrade in 2 or 3 years.

That was sarcasm but I don't like using green. See my reply to Ironwood.

Ah, fell into the sarchasm. :|

I was wondering myself if it would be worth getting a more expensive LGA775 Intel Dual Core/Quad Core-ready Motherboard and then getting a low low end Intel CPU. I've seen the benchmarks for AM2 chipset/cpus, and they are underwhelming. You can get an Asus P5B motherboard  (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=19505&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f) and then a low end Core 2 Duo like this one (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_28&products_id=23930&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f).

Something like this will allow you to later upgrade to a top end Quad Core that now retails at $700 AU, but as soon as the 45 nm CPUs come out, is likely to drop significantly.

I know its the course I took in the past; getting a very good AMD 64 939 motherboard, then buying a low/mid range 939 single core CPU for it, then 2 years later upgrading to a dual core top of the line AMD CPU. With the solitary exception of Vanguard, the machine's done very well.

All that said, reading the reviews on the AMD AM2 64 X2 44000, it seems its a good budget chip. Additionally, it seems that the new iterations of the Barcelona CPU (the new quads from AMD) will be useable with the AM2 socket type. Wether or not the motherboard in question will support it is another question.

From what I remember when putting my rig together high-end motherboards differ from regular motherboards in following way - better voltage regulators (important only if you plan to OC), support faster bus speeds (important if you plan OC), support more features (such as dual channel memory or dual video cards).

If you are not planning to OC there are not many reasons to get bleeding-edge motherboard.

Except in the case where you want a Quad-ready motherboard; only higher end ones support that. You also get the higher bus ratings for better memory, which allows memory upgrades down the road as well.

I think you have to consider getting budget motherboard now and later when you get quad core. Two budget motherboards often can cost less than top-of-the-line one. Good motherboard is A MUST for performance gaming rig, its too expensive if budget is at all a consideration.

You *can* get good OC out of budget processor, and you will need top-notch mobo for that, is that what you are trying to do?

I'll chime in with at $179 (US) the SAPPHIRE x1950 PRO 512 MB card is a pretty damn good deal for a card that's only slightly behind the bleeding edge.  Very quiet but it is a little long so you need to have a good size case.  Make sure you have a good power supply though, it recommends 30A on the 12V line.  I'm using a Coolmax CP-500T (39.00 after rebate) that I think is pretty spiffy.

Nope, I'm not aming for OC features; I'm simply suggesting a high end Intel motherboard because of the possibility to upgrade the CPU alone after a year or two, or also getting higher speed ram later on. They are two easy upgrade solutions that don't require a whole new system.

Budget motherboards are fine, if you stick to decent companies, but a budget motherboard, be it AM2 or 775 socket, will probably lock you out of relatively easy upgrades in the future.

Its not a big issue in this scenario, since Azazel has already said that he'd rather just buy a whole new rig down the line, instead of angling for upgradeability. That said, if you don't mind a comparitively small price hike (the motherboard I linked is the lower end reasonably priced Quad ready Asus P5B board), it may leave an option open.

Currently on XE.com, I see $1400 AUD to be equivalent to $1150 USD, so let me offer up my current build which I love to death.

Granted these were Newegg prices, but I did this build for just a smidge over $1100 USD (Including Monitor)

1) 250GB HDD (WD) -- $67.99 USD - Item #: N82E16822144701

2) 2x1GB DDR2800 (Corsair) -- $154.00 USD (-$50.00 USD MIR) Item #: N82E16820145034

3) 1x7900GS (BFG -- I got a steal of a deal on Black Friday -- $120) $165.99 (-$35.00 USD MIR) Item #: N82E16814143070

4) e6600 2.4GHz (Intel) $226.00 Item #: N82E16819115003 (Best bang for the buck on the market. I added two 80MM and one 120MM fans to this rig and it runs at room temperature.)

5) LGA775 Motherboard (ECS) $119.99 Item#:N82E16813135047 (-$20.00 MIR) (Yes, I'd recommend it for basic non-overclocking. I think I might get reamed for this one, but it sounds like you aren't too big into OCing)

6) DVD-ROM (Sony) $30.00 USD (Pick your poison, I'm not going to go research optical drives for you ;))

7) Case w/500w PSU (X-Navigator) $94.99 USD (-$15.00 USD MIR) Item #: N82E16811144164 (The newegg reviews on this item are from people who must love chucking their cases through a window before they build. I didn't have a /single/ problem with the case. In fact, I love it. The LED's are bright, but if you don't like LEDs, don't get the case. The 500W PSU isn't cheap, and if you are on a budget, it's a great way to save a little money buying the combo.)

8) 20" LCD Flatscreen Monitor (Sceptre) (You said you didn't need this...but I like to show my full build)

9) Mouse/Keyboard Combo (Logitech) // On a side note, don't go for wireless stuff for gaming purposes. I hate the delay.

10) Headset (Altec-Lansing)

11) OS (Windows XP -- I got a copy through my school for $40)

For a grand total of....$998.96 with OS@$140 USD and without MIR, and $878.76 with OS@$140 USD and MIR. Even if they reamed you for $250 USD shipping, you'd be within your budget. I'll even offer to help you with a legit copy of Windows XP through my school so you can save an extra $100 USD. I know I have 3dMark05 scores somewhere.... let's see... 9605. That's not too terribly bad for a budget system. I'll just put it this way, I ran VG effectively at 30-40 FPS in group situations in a widescreen setup (1680x1050). Yes, there are no bells and whistles on this machine such as a 8800GTX or a quad core, but we're on a budget here.

I hope this helps you, and if I might be of any more service, feel free to e-mail me or pm me on the forums.
Happy Building!

Newegg doesn't assemble. And you are guessing at the shipping cost, import taxes, etc.

You're right -- unfortunately I don't know of any Aussie shopping sites, but if you found one with even a 20% markup, it'd be still under budget.
Imo, building a PC is more or less snapping pieces together. I don't know if you all consider PCG a reputable source on building PCs, but I used their how-to for my first build and it came out spot on perfect.

Thanks for the info, and I've put together my own, family and friends' last 3? 5? PCs over time but usually there's just one small issue that fucks the whole thing up - nowadays I'm making enough money so that the $55 to get them to assemble the whole thing is well worthwhile, especially since that means it comes with a couple years' replacement warranty and they've even serviced PCs for free years later when I bought all the components from them.

- I'm working prices off their website, but it's actually a Brick and Mortar store like 10 minutes from my house.

I've bought tons of stuff throught the internets fronm the US, and one thing I can tell you, once you go DHL or FedEx, shipping gets really expensive. I think easily expensive enough to write off the large price difference between the US and here (a currency conversion via XE unfortunately is just half the story)

I'll definately check into the hardware bits you listed though, once I get home from work. 

And yeah, I'm not worried at all about overclocking - I had a friend who helped me with the first couple computers who liked to overclock everything and thought he knew a little more than he actually knew...  :roll:  net effect, I'll leave the thing be once I build it.

I have about an extra AU$50ish left in the budget I could put towards a better mobo, but atm I'm looking at getting the AMD 5400, so not sure if it would be worthwhile from an "upgrade-the-processor-later" perspective.


just thinking.. if I have a bit of $ left over, should I buy a third gig of ram?

What's your budget up to now? If it's large enough it might be worth getting a Core 2 Duo setup.

Not unless you want to go to Vista.

I don't see the number 8800 in your setup. Did I miss it?

Take it from me, an AMD Fanboi for years -- the Conroes are where it is at. It is by far the best piece of hardware for the buck on the market. Period. It makes games weak in the knees just knowing it's in your system.

Although their stock HSF sucks.

A Conroe is gonna run better than a 6600 dual-core? Really?

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/05/04/which_is_the_best_mainstream_cpu/page7.html#3dgames

No, it's not, not at his budget range. E.g. a E6420 4MB is AUS$257.40 but an X2 5600+ beats it handily in most gaming benchmarks and its $238.70. If he had enough to go to the E6600, which beats out the X2 6000+, I would agree with you. Or if he wanted to OC one of the lower end 800 MHz Core 2 Duo.

Shouldn't that be in green? I'm pretty sure I said that it didn't have any bells and whistles -- the 8800 series is about 1/3 his budget and certainly would vex the PSU.

But if your point is that it isn't a real system because it doesn't have an 8800, well played, sir.

Conroe is the codename for the Core 2 Duo.

If you talking about the video card, he can't afford an NVIDIA 8800.

To put it another way at AUS$1400 and given the markup at CC compared to a place like Newegg, he's looking to build a US$1000 PC.

I just got served. It was in the gaming forum. I made assumptions I shouldn't have.
/me fears wall of text.


Should've read the sentence after that one.

On a side note, doesn't it make sense to save for a few weeks and get the processor/graphics upgrade?

With the research I did for my computer, I decided that the DX10 architecture is just too new for anything to be using it in the next 6-12 months. I mean sure, the 8800s are sex in a nine inch card, but what game is really using DX10? Look how many people play VG. I think it might be wisest to buy a mid-range 7000 series or ATI equivalent and wait it out. The prices will become somewhat more reasonable in that timeframe. -- I only make $11.50 USD/hr cutting meat -- gotta stretch that cash :)

Yes and no. I'm already throwing 3 weeks pay at it, and even that feels a little excessive. Going to a month's earnings or over is just too much, and we really hit the point of declining returns for money/usefulness. Paying the extra for bleeding-edge isn't something I feel that's worthwhile these days.

You know, what with a house to buy and all that kind of stuff.


On a less extreme note. There's only $60 difference between the 7600 (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=18383&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f) and the 8600 (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=23643&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f), so I'm considering putting that last bit of the budget mentioned before into here.

I'm reading up on the reviews and such, but a too-large chunk of the reviews just degenerate into number-crunching which is a bit disorienting.

edit - Or do I say fuck it and put in 2 extra days' pay and get the low-end 8800 (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=22442&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f)? Will it make that much of a difference in the gaming?


will that mobo be able to handle all this stuff without a problem? Will it kill the power supply?


arrgh.

This hurts.

If you are going to do an 8800, you will most certainly want a 600W PSU. Anything less would be pushing it in an extreme sense. Especially if you are running two HDDs.

Maybe I'm just jealous that your video card will be shinier than mine.

If you play at very high resolutions it will.

400W PS with a minimum of 26A on the +12V line(s) is the minimum PS that's recommended for the GTS with 640 MB of RAM. The 320 MB model will require slightly less power. Antec helpfully does not display the specs on their PS for that case (and their site is fucked up) but guesstimating from their other 430W PSes it should be okay. E.g. The EarthPower 430W puts out a max of 33A on its two +12V combined.

CC, very unfortunately, does not sell a case without a PS. If you are worried about whether or not the PS is big enough you'll either need to switch cases or buy a case with a small PS and have them put in another one. I don't trust the PSes in any of their no-name cases so you could go with something like the Antec Atlas Server Case Black (550W) or you could get something like the Antec SLK1650B Black Mini Tower (350W) and add on the Antec EarthWatts 500W ATX Power Supply.

The WD 320 GB draws 395 mA reading and writing on the +12V line and 660 mA on the +5V line. Not enough to justify jumping from 430 W to 600 W just because he wants to run 2 HDDs.

Realistically, I'll be running most stuff (or as much as possible) at 1680x1050 as that's the native of the monitor I'll get shortly afterwards.

Should O get the low-end 8800, or save myself seveal hundred and just get the 8600? I'm leaning towards the latter, if the former is going to make the PSU and case into yet another mess. Assuming the 8600 isn't just as power-mad the the 8800..? :cry:

I've also noticed over $100 difference between the 8600GT and 8600GTS. The only differences I've found after a fair try of google-fu is the "S" and DDR2 vs DDR3, which aside from knowing it's something to do with memory, means nothing to me. (so I have no idea if the jump is worthwhile).


Other than the video card and PSU now (and assuming the selected mobo is still ok), I've pretty much got it worked out. I think.

That's high enough that the 8800 might make a noticable difference. Check out some benchmarks and see if the extra FPS is worth the extra cost to you.

The 8600 GTS is faster than the 8600 GT, neither of which are as power hungry as the 8800 GTS (350W min rec for 8600 GTS, 300W min rec for 8600 GT).

Serving us all today, eh? I like to be on the safe side because there is absolutely nothing more frustrating than putting your rig together and realizing you don't have enough juice.

Your research looks to be sound though.

OK, thanks to the replies from everyone in this thread, I've come up with a revised draft. I'd like to see what people think before going in and ordering it. (Takes about 3-5 days for them to build it, and I want to pick it up this time next week). Modified from the base that Trippy worked out initially.


AMD ATHLON 64 X2 (AM2) 5600+ (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_29&products_id=22367&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f)

Asus M2N-E-SLI motherboard (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36_63&products_id=21948&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f) (They just dropped the price on this and others by $30 - should I buy "one up"? I don't know mobos.)

WD 320Gb 7200 16Mb Cache SATA 2 Hard Disk (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=107_22&products_id=18233&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f) HDD#1

WD 320Gb 7200 16Mb Cache SATA 2 Hard Disk (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=107_22&products_id=18233&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f) HDD#2

Pioneer DVR-212D SATA DVD Re-Writer (18x/8x Dual Layer Black) (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=49&products_id=23615&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f)

Lite-On COMBO 52XCDR, 32XCRW, 16XDVD, BLACK (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=49&products_id=21630&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f)

Corsair DDR2 2GB PC-6400 (2x XMS2 1GB) TWIN2X2048-6400 RAM (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=115_23&products_id=19912&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f)

Antec NSK6500 Solution Series Black (430W) (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=60&products_id=21033&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f)

1.44Mb Floppy Disk Drive (Black) (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=57&products_id=20147&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f)

Thermaltake TMG A1 CPU Cooler for AMD Socket AM2/ K8 (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=75&products_id=21425&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f)

Microsoft Basic Black Value Pack PS/2 (OEM) (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=58&products_id=20076&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f)


Prices on these two low-end 8800 cards are pretty similar - which to buy? Or much of a muchness?

GIGABYTE NX88S320H-B-RH 8800GTS, 320MB, 320bit, GDDR3, 2xDualLinkDVI-I, TVOUT, HDTV (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=22442&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f)

Palit GF8800GTS PCI-E 500/ 1600MHz 320MB GDDR3 320-Bit Dual-Link DVI (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=22408&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f)


Concerns:

Is the mobo good enough to get the most from that processor and graphic card?
Is the PSU good enough to handle all the shit in the case?

Overall thoughts?

1) Yes. Probably. You might want to read up on some tech sites though. I'd still recommend the e6600 though over the 5600+.
2) Maybe. A very big maybe. I still think 430W might be skimping it; you're cramping your ability to possibly jump to an SLI configuration without dropping $$ for a new PSU too. What's the point in getting an SLI ready motherboard if you never plan to use it? This is my opinion, and I'm sure Trippy will disagree, but if you have a little extra cash, put in a bigger PSU.
3) Side note: Are you adding any other case fans? I would assume that with all the nifty things you're popping in your case, and especially with the 8800, you would need some extra 90mms. Have you thought about that?

E6600.

Seriously. It's for winners.

You WANT to be a winner, Right?

Not sure if I'm falling into the Sarchasm, but...

The OC capabilities of the e6600 are amazing; check out some of the reviews on Tom's.
Much of the OCing is with a stock HSF. Installing the stock HSF is a true pain in the ass, but it works pretty well. The capabilities with an aftermarket HSF are even better.
My e6600 with stock HSF runs at room temperature. I think AMDs have a really tough time getting the same results. My 3400+ doubles as a space heater from time to time. I really thought my temperature gauges were broken when I first started using them. My HDD runs hotter than my CPU, although it might be because I have better airflow through the box than in the HDD Bays.

1a~ There's another $60 between the two, and aside from not understanding what the actual difference is between the two, it's just a matter of finding the point where the value/$ reaches it's decent-level peak. The 5600+ seems to be at that point. If you can convince me otherwise, I'm open to consideration though, as I really don't understand the difference between the two. - I'd have to change the mobo, though.) I need to know the why in terms I can at least try to understand, besides the "it's grrrreat, mate!"

1b~ Also, I won't be overclocking. I don't know enough about that shit and I don't want to risk fucking up my machine with my ineptitute.

2a~ Again, what is SLI and why do I care? Yeah, I'm a n00b, I know..  :cry:

2b~ Cases and PSUs are an easy thing to change at the last minute while you're standing at the counter, so I'll certainly be seeing what they can offer while I'm standing there. It's most a matter of finding a case I like (I hate the whole "front door" thing to get to my drives) and a reasonable/priced PSU. What wattage would you recommend? Anything from here (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/default.php?page=1&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f&cPath=74) fit the bill at under au$100?

3~ Whoops! Yes I also planned to have a 90mm in the front of the case. Should I also get a second one? (in the side?) or will the one extra be enough? Also, will this mess with the PSU much? (as I also know bugger-all about voltages and such).
 

No, I was being serious, not sarcastic. You avoided the chasm, this time.

Azazel, read this article  (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2933) from Anandtech comparing the AMD 64 X2 against the Core 2 Duos. If that doens't convince you, I don't know what will. The proposed 6600 is pretty similar, and often beats out the AMD 5600 you wish to buy.

Since they are comparable, and you can get a motherboard that's upgradeable (the Asus P5B series, somewhat misrepresented on your website, as only half of their listings for the P5B purport to support Quad Core, yet far more of them do, according to New Egg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010200280+50001315+1070509908+1070625638+107171850&name=Intel+P965+Series)) within a similar price range, why not just go the intel route?

Here's what I just got today. It's a great time to buy I think.

E6600 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819115003
8800 GTS 640 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130071
HSF - Thermalright makes outstanding stuff http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835109133
Motherboard http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128012
Northbridge cooling http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835226019
Case http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811112099
RAM http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231098

I have a spare 320 gig seagate HDD, 7200 rpm SATA 16 meg cache perpendicular recording tech.
Also I plan on using a 550w Antec modular powersupply.
120mm fans in front/rear of the case. The only way to roll. Huge fans, huge CFM (cubic feet (per) minute), low RPMs and noise.

1a) In games where you may feel a CPU bottleneck, I believe the e6600 has a higher L2 Cache. I think it is 4MB v 1MBx2. I could be wrong, but I if I remember correctly, this is one of the reasons why I chose this processor over the other.

1b) Okay. See 1a.

2a) If you don't need SLI, why are you paying for an SLI motherboard? I'm not the hardcore hardware buff that others may be on this forum, but I understand SLI to basically combine the efforts of two videocards in one video output. Pretty much you are using two video cards for one picture. I think it has something to do with divying up shading, drawing, and other stuff, much like the Aegia PhysX chip is supposed to work.

2b) I might invest in http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=74&products_id=23946&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f and spend the extra $20 AUD in fans. A cool case is a happy case.

3) Is there a place to install a 120mm fan? These are awesome for getting good front to back airflow for your CPU. I never knew how useful these could be until I put one in my fiance's rig. I'd totally recommend getting a case with one of these, ESPECIALLY if you are investing in a 8800.

Anything else? :)

Edit: My quote was embedded in something that wasn't a quote!

Thanks for finding that article, I do appreciate it, but all I really got out of it was that the processor that costs au$55 (25%) more than the other one is slightly better in a bunch of benchmarks. Which is to be expected, really.


Thanks for the info on the other stuff. :-)

As for SLI, well this mobo has just dropped in price by $30 as of yesterday, so it's actually pretty cheap now as far as motherboards go. Since it has all the other crap a motherboard needs, it seems fine to my untrained eye. I'm still not really understanding how SLI works though, or how I would go about using it. Or why it'd be gimped with this setup..  :|

What I am saying is that you might be able to find a budget motherboard which won't hamper your system through your site that doesn't lend a hand to overclocking and an SLI configuration. Most of the more expensive boards have one of these two things in mind. But you've said that you don't want to do either, so if you have no intention ever of running two of the exact 8800s together on your motherboard, why are you paying for one with the extra PCIex16 slot?  It's like having a car with a GPS system you'll never use. Sure, it's nifty that it is there, but if you don't turn it on and let it tell you to turn right in 1km, you're wasting your money.

Az, as I who has recently put together a system. Let me try to address SLI. SLI is an upgrade option. One that I have no plan of using. But it is an option that costs little to acquire. I think that future proofing a system is a fools game as the tech changes so fast.  But I will take all the options I can acquire as long as the cost is small.

Ok I get you now. I also agree on (not) paying extra for stuff you'll never use. My thoughts for sticking with this one are currently heavily based on yesterday's price drop from AU$160 to $129, which obviously takes a lot of the extra paying for stuff factor out of the equation on this (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36_63&products_id=21948&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f) board.

Do you have a suggestion on a different motherboard (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/default.php?page=1&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f&cPath=36_63) to go for? (As I clearly do not know WTF I am doing beyond a bsasic level without having my hand held.)

Alright lots of stuff to address so be patient.

First, your budget has gone up substantially since you originally posted your question (apparently it's up to around AUS$1800 now). Since you are spending more now, it's worth considering building a system that will have more longevity than a "budget" $1200 gaming system.

For a gaming system both the CPU and the video card are important with the video card usually being more important (though that's changing), especially if you like playing at high-resolutions. However a video card is very easy to replace while a CPU is a pain, as I mentioned earlier. Your latest proposed system is currently tilted on the video card side of the equation. I.e. at some point in the near future you might find your CPU is the bottleneck and your video card still has head-room to spare. Another option is to get the best CPU you can afford at your budget and skimp, somewhat, on your video card with the expectation that you'll upgrade it in a year or so when prices have come down and/or better models are available. Any system you build now is presumably going to be a huge improvement over what you have now so you probably won't even realize your video card is the bottleneck if you go the second option since your FPS will be so much better than it is now.

People here keep mentioning the E6600 and it really is the best CPU at that price point (though it's not necessarily the best bang for the buck), without getting into the ridiculously expensive CPUs. However you will pay more for both the CPU and the motherboard which means you won't be able to get the 8800 GTS if you stick the same $1800 budget. Since you have boosted your budget, though, it is something to seriously consider.


On the issue about SLI motherboards. Even if you don't plan on getting a pair of video cards to take advantage of an SLI motherboard they are still worth considering:

1) Since they are considered "enthusiast" boards they usually have more features than the non-SLI model. E.g. some of the ASUS non-SLI MBs only have 2 RAM slots on them. All of the ASUS SLI MBs, AFAIK, have 4 RAM slots on them. SLI MBs will often have more USB connectors, better sound chips, more SATA connectors, and so on, compared to their non-SLI counterparts.

2) They often have higher-quality components on them since they expect more "enthusiasts" will be overclocking or otherwise abusing their MBs.

3) In non-SLI motherboards the PCI-e slot is typically crammed next to the CPU socket. On an SLI MB you can stick your video card in the "lower" PCI-e slot which means its further away from the CPU for better cooling for both components.

The one disadvantage of going with an SLI motherboard (other than the price) is that you give up some PCI and/or PCI-e slots which may be an issue if you were planning on sticking in a bunch of extra cards. E.g. maybe you wanted to build an HTPC system with eight TV tuners (it's possible) and a sound card and now you don't have enough slots on your MB. It doesn't sound like you are going to be doing that, though.


If you do want to go with the 8800 GTS then your 430W PS is going to be on the borderline (especially since we don't know the exact specs on it). You should definitely consider getting a bigger PS if you go that route. I've never heard of Palit so I would recommend getting the Gigabyte.


You can't directly compare the cache sizes on the Core 2 Duo with the cache sizes on the A64. The A64 has a built-in memory controller while the C2D still relies on an external memory controller (part of the MB chipset). This means, among other things, that overall the A64 has lower memory access latencies compared to the C2D, and that means that the "cache miss" penalty on the C2D is larger than that of the A64 so it needs a bigger cache.


I'm not sure what that AnandTech benchmarks are supposed to convince him of. Yes the 6600 is a better CPU than the 6000+ but the 5600+ is about the same as the 6400 and it's cheaper, *and* the motherboards he can get that support the 5600+ are cheaper than the C2D ones.


Read my earlier post. At under $100 the Basiq 500 will work.


Fans draw ~2W on the 12V line or around 167 mA. In other words, not much. One fan is enough to cool your two drives, assuming its pulling enough air.

I swear, I should get paid for some of the research I do for people when building systems. But at the same time, I wish I had someone guiding me through when I went for my first real build.

Okay, if I were you, first I would dump the AMD processor, and here's why: You will have more L2 Cache, and you won't need a $54 AUD aftermarket HSF.

And since we aren't going with the AMD, I'd recommend these:

Motherboard: $128.70 AUD Gigabyte GA-945P-S3(V3.3): http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36_62&filter_id=20&products_id=23687&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f

CPU: $302.00 AUD Intel CORE 2 DUO E6600: http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_28&products_id=19802&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f
With the e6600, you won't need an aftermarket fan. So you just made up the money on your AMD.

If you further wanted to save money, I found another good case that you might like, considering you're getting the same PSU at a better price and also (in my opinion) a better case layout:

Case: $114.00 AUD Cooler Master Centurion 534 Silver 430W: http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=60&products_id=19950&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f
or even this one: $106.70 AUD Thermaltake Matrix Black Case with 430W http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=60&products_id=20615&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f

I'm not knocking Antec, but I think both Thermaltake and Cooler Master make superior products as far as cases go. If you don't like the colors and prefer the straight black (I know that's what I have at home), then I guess you are boned on the site. But if that doesn't bother you, I really think you should take a look at the Thermaltake Matrix. It's right robbery that you can get that case for that price. Toss in one extra 120mm and one extra 90mm and you'll be running close to room temps in your case if you can keep the 8800 in check.

Stop telling him to dump the A64 because of the size of the cache in the C2D. You don't know what you are talking about.

Damn. When it warned me in red that another post had been written, I figured it wasn't Trippy's super long one. Mine might be kinda out of date, but at least it gives the flipside of the AMD/intel coin.

I was under the impression that the cache difference was slight and that the C2D had the edge on the A64. Suppose I should do a bit more research, but I still think that the aftermarket HSF is a waste. However, I won't back down in saying that I am unbelievably satisfied with the e6600 over my last AMD product.

Edit: Clarity

If experience tells me anything, Intel chips tend to be a bit more stable, and run much cooler. My damn old AMD Athlon XP 2700+ runs pretty hot at times. The last Intel system I set up with a E6400 ran cool.

As in, the exhaust coming directly out of the HSF was cool to the touch, even under load (Maxed-out Doom3 gameplay).

C2D is the better architecture than the A64 but looking at cache sizes by themselves is meaningless. By your logic he should get a Pentium D because it has a 4MB cache and it's cheaper than the A64 and the C2D.

How do you feel about the budget board I suggested?

The A64 runs much cooler than the Pentium 4/D, so you are wrong there. The C2D runs cooler than the standard A64 X2 though the low power X2 are the same.

Medicore chipset. E.g. it doesn't support DDR2 800 which means you are going to seriously gimp your E6600. The 965 or 975 would be better though of course you have to pay extra for that.

OK going, to SirBruce this. To make the chunkage easier.



I'm thinking 3 or so years. 4 tops. By then I'll want a new box with new shiny.



Understood. However, my plan is to never open the case again unless I need to add another HDD, more RAM, or just give it a dust-blow with a can of air. When I get the box after the one we're building, the one we're building now will be my Wife's machine. I'm not planning to upgrade $200-$300 chunks of hardware every few months or year, that way lies only madness.

Once this machine comes home, she gets the one I'm typing this post on, and her one gets relegated to the corner for use as a print server, email box, occasional word processing, and "friends-over-to-LAN-WoW" machine.



I really just want a good CPU and Video card (and mobo) that will work happily in concert together. If the 6800/5600+ and the mobo you suggested in that earlier post work well together, then I'm happy. If there's a significant upgrade for not a lot more $, then I'm happy to consider it.

Same deal going from a 8600GT>8600GTS>8800GTS. I realise once we hit the GTS we're off the bang/buck rails, but if it's going to be significantly better than the 8600 models then I'll go for it. From my muddied reading I can't see a large difference in the two processors. Unless there's a really huge benefit to upgrading from the 5600+, I'm happy with staying with it. If the 8800 running with it won't be a big improvement over the 8600's, I'm just as happy to save the couple hundred dollars.

I could go for the e6600 and one of the 8600GTS cards, but would that be overall better or worse then a 5600+ and 8800, assuming I never ever open the case again?


And yes, I'm running an AMDxp2600+MMX, Radeon 9600AGP/256ram and 1.5 gig of RAM. This new system will kill it regardless.
My wife will get the 2600+ to replace her AMDxp2000+MMX, GEForce4 MX440/64ram and 1gb RAM.

The increase in computer power in just a couple of years, combined with both of our incomes having gone up quite a lot means I'd prefer to just get a whole new box in 3-4 years and give her this one.

I can't justify going over the $1700-1800 (inc XP, inc Mouse/Key) I've bumped up to though.
Especially with a monitor to follow.



The positives all sound good to me, and the negative is a N/A. I'll get them to shove the extra USBs/etc that come with the motherboard into the PCI slots and that will be that.



OK, so if I don't get an 8800, the 430w cases are fine. If I go 8800 then look for 500w+. Gotcha.


So how does the system I posted above look?

It's kind of down to:

Should I change the motherboard?
Which of the graphics cards?

Putting in a video card is comparable to to installing a new HDD.

The problem with most gaming benchmarks is that they either fix the CPU (usually the best they can get their hands on) and change the GPU or fix the GPU (again the best they can get) and change the CPU. It's rare that they change both since you get a multiplicative effect with all the permutations to test. If you dig around enough you might find enough benchmarks that you can extropolate what the performance differences might be between the different CPUs and GPUs.

If this is a gaming rig and you are never are going to upgrade the GPU I say go for the 8800 GTS, even if that means cutting back on the CPU. With a maxed out CPU the 8800 GTS is double the performance over the 8600 GT/GTS at higher-resolutions. Even with the more mainstream CPUs that should translate into noticablely smoother gameplay. Note, however, that cutting back on the CPU may slow down things like video reencoding/transcoding and stuff like that. So there are tradeoffs.

The motherboard you listed above is their low-end SLI motherboard. There are fancier NVIDIA chipsets which you can compare here:

http://www.nvidia.com/page/nforce5_specs_amd.html

There's also an nForce6 lineup as well. The weakest link on that motherboard is probably the audio -- the higher-end chipsets have much better audio, though you need a good audio system to take advantage of it which may not matter in your case.

Yes, it's physically very simple - I've done it in the past. The difference is installing an additional HDD gives you more storage space while turning over a video card gives you an expensive paperweight.



I understand that. The problem is I look at the various spreadsheets and benchmarks and they pretty much just wash over me to a large extent.



Thanks. This is the sort of thing I wanted to know!



Again, it's unfortunately a bunch of numbers that don't mean anything meaingful to me. Audio's not an issue really, especially with 2 or even 3 PCs usually going in the room at once.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This is my first computer where I've spent anywhere near this amount, so having people who seriously know what the fuck they are talking about such as yourself and Trippy as opposed to the people I know IRL makes a big difference. I think I spent $1200 on one of the two other systems I listed above, back in the day (the one that's my wife's current machine, I think). Spending a fair chunk more, I want to really make sure I've got my shit together.



Ok, the e6600 really runs significantly cooler and definately won't need an aftermarket fan? Fo' sho' reals?

In that case, I'm open to getting it (the difference becomes $10 at that point, so meaningless). And since everyone seems to agree that the e6600 outperforms the 5600+, I'm willing to change.



Both the Coolermaster and Thermaltake look just fine to me, but if I'm going to 8800GTS I'll need to work out a 500w.

So, now it's finding a good motherboard to plug the e6600 and 8800GTS into.

I guess we're getting closer...

As Trippy has said, and I've suggested earlier, a motherboard with an Intel 965 chipset is the best solution. Asus has various kinds of P5Bs, previously linked. This  (http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36_62&filter_id=17&products_id=19505&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f) one seems like a good choice.

You don't need an aftermarket cooler on the AMD either. He's just making stuff up.

If you do go the the E6600 route + 8800 GTS + a bigger PS you will go over $1800 unless you take some stuff out. You could, for example, forgo the extra HD and add that in later.

Thank you, Engels

Checking out the Asus site and the manual for that motherboard, it looked perfect till I noticed that it appears not to have any IEEE1394/firewire ports, which is odd. I thought everything would have them these days.

Looks like this one then, which is more expensive again. argh.
http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36_62&products_id=20671&ccsid=94539d2169c37722943a337ea653a09f

Also, just rang CC and they tell me that they're happy to refund the difference on PSU out of whatever case I buy towards a PSU i need for the system. Which is good news. I may enter the Matrix, especially as it's got the extra 120mm fan included in the package.

I'm going to need to recalculate the moneys.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


WD 320Gb 7200 16Mb Cache SATA 2 Hard Disk:                                                                        $102.00
WD 320Gb 7200 16Mb Cache SATA 2 Hard Disk:                                                                        $102.00
Pioneer DVR-212D SATA DVD Re-Writer (18x/8x Dual Layer Black):                                               $ 51.70
Lite-On COMBO 52XCDR, 32XCRW, 16XDVD, BLACK:                                                                   $ 35.20
Corsair DDR2 2GB PC-6400 (2x XMS2 1GB) TWIN2X2048-6400 RAM:                                             $199.10
GIGABYTE NX88S320H-B-RH 8800GTS, 320MB, 320bit, GDDR3, 2xDualLinkDVI-I, TVOUT, HDTV:      $467.50 (listed as $435 on their instore price list I got today)
1.44Mb Floppy Disk Drive (Black):                                                                                              $ 15.00
Microsoft Basic Black Value Pack PS/2 (OEM):                                                                              $ 27.50
Windows XP Home OEM                                                                                                          $123.20
Build with warranty                                                                                                                 $ 55.00
Intel CORE 2 DUO E6600/ 2.40GHz/ 4MB CACHE/ 1066FSB/ LGA775:                                            $302.00
Asus P5B-E motherboard:                                                                                                        $189.00

$1668

Thermaltake Matrix Black Case with 430W, VD2430BNS (comes with 2x120mm fans):                      $106.70

$1775.4



Plus probably $40-50 for them to upgrade the PSU, and I'm just over the $1800 I wanted to cap at, which I can live with.


Are there any glaring omissions?

Overall thoughts? (yeah, I know, I wish prices here were better, but...)

I'd go with the DVD drive only and skip on the lite-on, unless there is a particular reason you need it.

Yeah, the Pioneer will read and write CD's as well as DVD's, since you are so budget conscious I don't see needing both.

You could also drop a HDD for the time being. 320GB should be plenty of storage to start with, I would think.



Also, XP Home? Really?

Aside from the networking limitations of XP Home (being unable to join a Home version to a domain, for example), what other limitations are there on Home edition, for the sake of the home user?

There are a bunch of things the primary one in a home with multiple computers is that you can't have the Home machine act as a Remote Connection server. I.e. you can't connect to it from other machines using Remote Desktop. You can use it as a client to connect to XP Pro machines, however.

I like having two drives. It's something I've always done, and it comes in handy, so the extra $30 for the Lite-On isn't a problem. If I were that concerned with budget it'd still be a $1200 machine. Sky-is-the-limit spending, though, is not for me.



I've got 360gig on this machine, and it's perma-full. I've got a few very large games installed, a whole bunch of other games I haven't finished installed, most of which I'll be installing on the new box. Also have a large stack of new games I've bought but haven't yet installed because I'eve been waiting for the new box. About 1/3 of my CD collection in MP3 form (as it's in storage). Also, the internets need much space for downloadings. On top of all that, I'd like some editing space. Getting 640mb will allow me some.



So.. I can't right-click a folder to share it on the network with the other computers, but I can connect to the others? /le sigh. XP Pro it is then.


The computer itself is a reasonably good gaming machine by now though?

Any other small tweaks worth doing, or other smallish components that it really lacks?

You can share a folder with XP home. You just can't do it with domain security.

Sharing is different than Remote Desktop Connection, as Numtini implied. You can share files and folders in either version.

RDC is like pcAnywhere, if you are familiar with that. It basically allows you to control another machine as if you were actually on that machine (can't do most DirectX stuff, though) if it's running Remote Desktop server.

In your soon to be new setup it's actually more useful if your oldest machine, the one you want to make a file server, is running XP Pro. That way your new machine and your older machine that your wife will be using can both connect to it to do administrative stuff without actually having to go over to that machine, and by extension have a monitor and keyboard/mouse hooked up to it. I.e. you can run the file server machine "headless" if its running Pro.

If your new machine is running XP Pro then your wife's machine or the file server machine can control it, which isn't necessarily as useful as the setup above where the file server machine is running Pro.

Edit: typos

Ordered it today. A few slight last-minute tweaks were going for 4gb of Kingston DDR2 667mhz RAM (lifetime warranty), and a Pioneer IDE replacing the Lite-On. Ordered a Pioneer SATA as a second drive, which apparently will be in stock early next week so I'll probably pick it up and plug it in later myself.

Alsmost everything I got, (except for the HDDs) the guy was knocking a few bucks off of as we went along, and the same for the labor charge. Cost me $30 to upgrade to the Antec PSU. Decided to go for XP Home since I won't need to work remotely to this machine.

Total: $1715 from what looked like almost/just over $1900.

I'm happy. I'll be happier when I pick it up though.


Quick question - What's the practical difference between a SATA Optical drive and a IDE? I know they're both connection types, but is SATA faster or better in some way? I'm thinking of ringing them and just getting them to stick a second Pioneer IDE in it if it's basically exactly the same.

Windows XP is not a happy camper with 4 GB of RAM:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=9770.msg289432#msg289432

With your processor you want 800 MHz RAM.

As a said above for optical drives the main difference between SATA and IDE is the cabling. Plus you (usually) don't have to fiddle with jumpers with SATA. In theory SATA 1 and SATA 2 have higher max transfer rates compared to IDE 133 but even a 16X DVD-ROM drive only reaches a fraction of the max transfer rate on IDE 133. For SATA hard drives there are other benefits as well depending on which SATA features they and the SATA controller chipset support but they don't apply to optical drives, at least not yet.

Edit: If you want to go dual IDE optical drives that's fine too. If they were both SATA then you have the benefit of thinner cabling which makes it easier to get good airflow into the case. If one is SATA and one is IDE that doesn't really help the airflow situation since you still have the wide IDE cable potentially blocking airflow depending on whether or not they try to route the IDE cable so it's not in the airflow path.

OK, after reading those links and corsair's website I understand the RAM limitation and differences (kind of). Thank you. I'll change the RAM back.

CC are totally out of SATA drives right now, and not expecting them until sometime next week (they hope). Based on this, I may as well go for two Pioneer IDEs and save myself a few bucks, and make sure they will have the stock.

I don't want to open a new thread so I want to add it to this one.

I plan on buying a new system mostly for gaming and I was shopping around for best bang for the buck hardware.

At the moment all I play is World of Warcraft but it should be able to play all the new stuff coming the next year or so, preferably on a 1440*900 or 1280*1024 display (roughly the same amount of pixels)

Price point is around Eur 800 ($1100) and I don't want to go over that limit by a big amount because I also want to buy a new monitor with the system

I do not intend to overclock ever and I don't very much care for an SLI setup either, although I would reconsider if I could actually find a decent and cheap SLI mainboard

At the moment I have chosen the following

Core2 Duo E6600 boxed: It is the same price as the Athlon 64 5600+ but runs cooler with only 65W TDP, unfortunately you can't get the EE versions of the 5600 where I live but I lean to the E6600 anyway. Since I won't overclock I keep the boxed cooler, the one's that Intel and AMD use are usually quite decent.

2GB Corsair PC800 CL4 Memory: I won't gimp the E6600 with PC665 memory and even at CL4 it is not that much more expensive anyway.

Gigabyte 965P-DS3: It's got better reviews than the Asus P5B, is slightly cheaper and can handle quad cores so it seems to be a good choice, SLI mainboards are usually double the price or even more so I don't want to spent the extra money on something I might not ever use in the future.

Thermaltake Matrix: I took it because you guys recommended it. Quite frankly with the huge amount of cases available and lack of decent reviews I don't know what to take anyway. It should be good quality and shouldn't cost a fortune.

Enermax 500W Liberty ELT500AWT: 500 W should be enough for the components that I want to use and should even be able to handle an 8800GTS.

LG H30N S-ATA DVD-writer. I don't need two optical drives in my PC so a writer should be enough. If you know a better brand let me know I didn't want to research in depth for something that only costs Eur 30.

250GB Western Digital WD2500YS RE SII 16MB: I don't need that much storage space, since I already hava a 250 GB USB2 external drive the 16 MB cache is nice though.

7900GS ASUS EN7900GS/2DHT: The biggest trouble I have is choosing the right graphics card. I already have a XP Pro license and do not plan on upgrading to vista any time soon so DirectX10 is out of the question and when I upgrade to vista in a year's time or more (when the first directX10 only title I want to play comes out) I still can upgrade to a DX10 Ati/Nvidia, the system should have enough potential for that. I also don't want to pay more than Eur 200 (hard limit) on the card and would rather pay less than Eur 150 so I thought that the 7900GS might be the best compromise but I am a bit lost on all those numbers and GS/GTS/GX stuff.

All in all the system will cost Eur 780 which is slightly below my limit.

With the exception of the case, the motherboard, and the card manufacturer, that is the exact build I have.


:)

GS < GT < GTS/GTX. In some of the NVIDIA series the GS is seriously gimped compared to the GT version. Fortunately the 7900 series is not one of those so the 7900 GS is a decent card for the price.

You may also want to consider the X1950 Pro if you don't mind ATI cards (and their drivers).

Edit: In not If

What kind of monitor are you playing on? You said you're below your limit, so possibly you'd like to invest in a nice monitor for your new rig?

He's leaving separate funds for a monitor I believe.

Yes, I mentioned only the budget for the computer with a monitor I want to stay at 1000 Euro which is feasible as far as I know.

After reading an Interview with the Head of Nvidia that was held at GDC this year I changed my mind on the graphics card. He said that he is astonished by the speed with that DX10 has been adopted by the developers and that most of the christmas titles this year will already be DX10 or DX10 only titles. He said that most developers are very happy with DX10 because it makes shader programming a whole of a lot easier than before. So I'll bite and buy an 8600 GTS instead.

I got my system up and running last night. I am sending back the Thermalright BigFuckingHSF because it sucks - hit everything, didn't fit right, broken feet. I'm just using the stock cooling on the e6600.

Stock it's 9x266 for 2.4 ghz. I'm running at 8x400 for 3.2. Rock solid. 50C tops. Love it.

The stock HSF is a bitch to install, but after that it is pretty decent. How is your airflow through your case? Maybe my e6600 just runs a lot cooler than yours (Some reviews on Newegg said some run cooler than others) but 50c seems a little hot even under the OC.

50C under full load - it idles around 28C.

I installed the stock HSF in about 5 seconds, no lie, after fucking with that Thermalright thing for literally 2 hours. I nearly broke the thing in frustration.

Airflow is great, I got an aluminum lian-li case with 120mm fans in front and back.

Didn't want to start a new thread with this but I recently bought a gig stick of RAM from Crucial to give me a performance boost. Problem is when I installed it alongside the two 512mb sticks I've got my computer won't boot. I'll get the power on but the processor light doesn't flicker and the monitor doesn't get any signal. The sticks I've already got are also from Crucial and their system scanner thing marked the new RAM as compatible. The new stick isn't broken, when it's in on its own everything works fine.

Info on my system, I've got an MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum motherboard and am running XP with a 400W PSU, do you guys think this RAM is just conflicting horribly and so I need to return it or does it sound like something that could be fixable on my end?

You should check that the two 512 sticks are in the same colour slots.

Actually I just read your motherboard's page. (http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?func=proddesc&prod_no=587&maincat_no=1)

Sorry, guess they don't like that.  Maybe you can return it and get another 2 sticks of 512?

You need two 512MB sticks (meaning return the 1GB and get 2x512MB). http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p_spec.asp?model=K8N_Neo2_Platinum

Match the two sticks in the green slots and two sticks in the purple slots. There's a chart about 1/4 of the way down the page I linked.

Oh yeah, and google is your friend newbler :P

Blah, was searching for problems with RAM but didn't think to just search for stuff on my motherboard. Pwned.

Thank you oh google-fu masters. One day I will learn.

Couldn't he also just scrap the 512x2 and pop in another 1GB? I read over the Motherboard's site and I think it would work...

Yes but that would cost extra money.

Got it yesterday. It's sex on a stick, despite the fact that I'll still be installing stuff on it for the next few days. I am slightly surprised that a number of games (FEAR, Company of Heroes) don't recommend running max settings which I thought I'd be able to do at 1680x1050, and even more surprised at the number of recent games (like 2005+) that don't support widescreen or even have patches to supprt WS.

Nonetheless, I thank all the people who posted here once again. Your pushing for the extra $ for the 6600 and 8800 will make a difference for the next few years.  :-D

Hi!  :cry: I've linked it here a lot, but widescreengamingforum.com is your friend.

Yeah, even with e6600 and 8800, the bells+whistles can get intense. I'm kinda happy with my 720p monitor for that reason.

Glad you're enjoying the new machine, it's a great time to build one imo.

What are your 3dMark/PCMark scores, out of curiosity?

With the Canadian dollar hovering around .93-.94 I figured I might as well make good on this and get me a cheap computer built. Not really looking to be on the bleeding edge of technology cause I know there's not much coming out. I just need a computer built, no monitor, keyboard, mouse or speakers. And I don't need a DVD/RW drive.

Must haves:
300GB minimum
2GB
Decent video card - I'm running a 6600GT right now.
Black case
Silent cooling

I really don't know what's good right now (ATI or nVidia, AMD or Intel..etc) so that's why I've come to you guys. I don't need a copy of windows, soundcard or a floppy drive.

Budget: $1200 CDN (roughly $1100 US) If I can get more by throwing an extra $200 or so at it, let me know.

Are you willing to build it yourself out of components or do you want a dell-like premade one? Also, what are you going to use it for? If you're not a big gamer, then you can make due with a dell workstation with many bells and whistles that'll rival anything we can all cobble together. If on the other hand you want a decent gaming rig, you're going to have to go the component route, since that's where you save money by building it yourself. Prefab gaming rigs are insanely overpriced.

I can build it myself and I do want it to play games. I'm not worried about the DX10 or Vista compatibility crap seeing as it'll be awhile before I even bother with games that'll require it.

In that case, I would direct you to Azazel's recent purchase. Its a very decent gaming rig for the price constraints he had. You should have an easier time of it, since you don't need as much space and you can hopefully purchase from NewEgg:

WD 320Gb 7200 16Mb Cache SATA 2 Hard Disk:                                                                        $102.00
WD 320Gb 7200 16Mb Cache SATA 2 Hard Disk:                                                                        $102.00
Pioneer DVR-212D SATA DVD Re-Writer (18x/8x Dual Layer Black):                                               $ 51.70
Lite-On COMBO 52XCDR, 32XCRW, 16XDVD, BLACK:                                                                   $ 35.20
Corsair DDR2 2GB PC-6400 (2x XMS2 1GB) TWIN2X2048-6400 RAM:                                             $199.10
GIGABYTE NX88S320H-B-RH 8800GTS, 320MB, 320bit, GDDR3, 2xDualLinkDVI-I, TVOUT, HDTV:      $467.50 (listed as $435 on their instore price list I got today)
1.44Mb Floppy Disk Drive (Black):                                                                                              $ 15.00
Microsoft Basic Black Value Pack PS/2 (OEM):                                                                              $ 27.50
Windows XP Home OEM                                                                                                          $123.20
Build with warranty                                                                                                                 $ 55.00
Intel CORE 2 DUO E6600/ 2.40GHz/ 4MB CACHE/ 1066FSB/ LGA775:                                            $302.00
Asus P5B-E motherboard:                                                                                                        $189.00

$1668

Thermaltake Matrix Black Case with 430W, VD2430BNS (comes with 2x120mm fans):                      $106.70

$1775.4

Note that those are AU dollars, not US or Canadian. Subtract the components you don't need, and bobs your uncle.

Couldn't find a decent case with a power supply and the one listed in Azazel's isn't on Newegg.

CPU: e6600 Intel Conroe Dual Core Processor. Item #: N82E16819115003 $222.90
HDD: Western Digital SE16 320GB.                Item #: N82E16822136003 $89.99
GPU: BFG 7900GS 256MB GDDR3                  Item #: N82E16814143070 $165.99 ($135.99 w/ $30 MIR) // On 06/11/07, this card was ranked #1 for best bang for the buck ~$150 USD: http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/06/11/the_best_gaming_video_cards_for_the_money/page2.html#best_pcie_card_for_150_tie (http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/06/11/the_best_gaming_video_cards_for_the_money/page2.html#best_pcie_card_for_150_tie)
RAM: Corsair XMS 2GB (2x1GB) PC2 6400       Item #: N82E16820145034 $131.00 ($91.00 w/ $40 MIR) // I'm by no means a RAM expert. I generally use Corsair simply out of habit and reliability, but if anyone here knows of anything better (or could educate me more on RAM), then let me know :)
MB:  EVGA 122-CK-NF66-T1 LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 650i Ultra ATX Intel Motherboard Item#:N82E16813188017 $99.99 ($79.99 w/ $20 MIR) // This motherboard looks like an upgraded version of the ECS non-bells, non-whistles board that I have now that looks a bit more sturdy and OC-friendly. Note the informed reviewer who recommends a NB fan and a SB heatsink.
PSU/CASE: APEVIA X-Navigator ATXA9N-BK/500 Black Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case ATX 500W Item #: N82E16811144164 $94.99 ($84.99 w/ $10 MIR) // This is the case I have for my fiance's rig. It is excellent if you like a big, spacious, good-airflow case with color. If you don't like blue LEDs, don't get it. Another great selling point on this case is the 500W PSU which is pretty hardy. The one we currently have has had no problems and works perfectly. I highly recommend it to you.

Monitor?: SCEPTRE X20WG-1080P Black 20.1" 5ms(GTG) 1080P HDCP supported Item #: N82E16824112007 $189.99 ($169.99 w/$20 MIR)  // Inexpensive widescreen monitor that delivers way more performance than the price leads you to believe. I own two of these, and no dead pixels, no problems, and no difficulties. These two monitors have probably gone through way more wear and tear than many others do simply because when I moved apartments, they got thrown in the back of my car (Stupid Preludes and no trunk space.).
Keyboard?: Logitech G11 Item#:N82E16823126009 $58.99 // Love it. Fiance tries to steal it as much as she can.

Let's see here: I see your grand total as: $804.86 for your base build, plus add-on drives and whatever other bells and whistles you want. I would highly recommend a Rosewill 120MM and 80MM to go in your case. If you have the money, you could even run two 250GB 16MB WD's in RAID array for around $140 USD.
With the MIR, I see you at $704.86. I think that leaves you a TON of wiggle room for many nice add-ons.

Some things to consider since you would be $400 under your budget:

Perhaps a nice DX10 Card? Note you'll need to up your motherboard too.
RAID arrays? I know I mentioned them above, but they are definitely something to think about.
A bigger monitor or even two displays? I highly, highly recommend the monitor above listed.

It's usually better just to pick a case without a power supply and get a separate power supply. It'll cost more but that's because the power supply will (usually) be of better quality.

You mentioned "silent cooling". Did you literally mean "silent", in which case that'll radically change your component selection, or just "quiet"? In either case you should go visit http://silentpcreview.com and read up on the various quiet cooling solutions available.

Just quiet. I can deal with some noise. What PSU do you recommend?

I like Seasonic though everybody and their uncle are jumping into the "enthusiast" power supply market that it's hard to keep track of who is making what now. Antec's NeoHE is good as well if you like the modular cable design.

As for the quiet part its still important to pick components carefully. E.g. you can't just pick, say, a quiet power supply but then have a leaf blower fan on your video card.

Necrobump.

My wife's PC is in the shop, getting transferred across to a new case after a faulty power button issue. (The kind of job I prefer to pay others to not fuck up).

Since she's been without it for a few days now, she wondered aloud what a computer like mine would cost to buy now, for her. (*cough*) What with the ever-decreasing costs of components. And such.


I've done what I can, but model numbers change, and so I'm a bit stuck on MoBo, RAM, and Vid Cards. And also the best bang/buck processor around the same level as the existing one, but with cheaper!


This is pretty much what I got. Just edited the quote to reflect the actual box I got.


The idea being to basically cost out essentially the same machine, maybe fractionally better in some respects, but above all cheaper, and see if it comes under AU$1000. If so, she'll get it.

This is what I worked out:

Pioneer DVR-215 SATA DVD Re-Writer (20x/10x Dual Layer Black)       $36.00
Pioneer DVR-215 SATA DVD Re-Writer (20x/10x Dual Layer Black)       $36.00
Western Digital 640Gb 7200RPM 16Mb SATA 2              $139.70

RAM?
CPU?
MoBo?
Vid Card?

1.44Mb Floppy Disk Drive (Black):                                                                                              $ 15.00
Microsoft Windows XP Home - OEM                             $126.50
Build with warranty                                                                                                                 $ 55.00

Thermaltake Matrix Black/Silver Midi Tower Case (430W)   $107.80

New PSU?
 
============


What do we think?

How much is your machine now except with, say, an 8800GT 512MB?

Sounds very like my recent PC build. (all prices in $A as purchased from CentreCom)

1 x Intel Core 2 Duo E6750/ 2.66GHz/ 4MB Cache/ 1333FSB/ LGA775 () = $227.00
1 x Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3P motherboard () = $165.00
1 x Western Digital 500Gb 7200RPM 16Mb SATA 2 (HD500WD/S/16) = $128.00
1 x Lite-On Super Allwrite SATA DVD Re-Writer (20x/8x Dual Layer Black) () = $48.40
1 x Corsair DDR2 2GB PC-6400/800 (2xXMS2 1GB) TWIN2X2048-6400C4 Ram () = $114.40
1 x Antec Sonata III Quiet Super Tower Black (500W) () = $178.00
1 x XFX 8800GT Alpha Dog Edition 512MB PCIe - Overclocked (YDQ4) () = $386.10
1 x Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium 32-Bit DVD - OEM () = $151.80

The case is quiet until you play a game then the case fan lifts off.  If I'd known that I would have gone with a cheaper case or kept my old one.  Aside from that, no complaints.

Well, I can't find the exact same MoBo, Graphics card and RAM on their site. That's my problem. Available processor options are also different. I worked out HDD, Optical Drives, um, case, XP easily enough.

So I'm assuming that a year on now, they've been superceded by incremental upgrades. Problem is, when I look at, say graphics cards I find a whole ton of models that look very similar in their names/numbers to the one I have now, but their prices vary a lot.

I'm looking for roughly-equivalent bits to my current machine. (those 4 components, plus a suitable PSU). That's where this necropost comes in.

oops, sorry. buying from this mob again. Australian $ etc, these guys are cheap for us here (I lost my initial version of the post)

http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/default.php

Asus P5K-PRO
Intel Core 2 Duo E6750
XFX 8800GT Alpha Dog Standard Edition 512MB
Corsair DDR2 2GB PC-8500/1066 (2xXMS2 1GB) TWIN2X2048-8500C5D Ram
Antec EarthWatts 500W ATX Power Supply or Antec NeoPower 500W ATX Power Supply

thank you!

will check them out in detail tomorrow. Gotta have something to do at work!

Wait. A power button goes bad and she gets a new computer? WIll you adopt me?


 :awesome_for_real:

Well, the power-button box is getting fixed. I should point out I'll be making her pay for (most of) the new computer if she ends up getting it. The old one (and the old number 3) will become a LAN-box and work/print/email machine. The old Number 3 will become a LAN-Box. Though that needs to have a noisy fan fixed up...

But yes, I will adopt you. But only if you bring your Big TV.

When I was researching I thought consensus was that PC8500 didn't provide significant benefits over PC6400 memory.  That was 6 months or so ago now though.

Not significant, no.

Is this it?

http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=27711

No it's this one:

http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=30604

The ASUS looks to be about the same for a bit cheaper though it doesn't seem to have dual DVI outputs.

Eh, it's 4-1/2 yrs old and only 720p. I'm sure there are adoptees here with much nicer tvs.

Just a heads up that Dell Outlet is having a 15% off sale on refurbished Inspirons and XPS's till April 21st. Coupon code I got in the e-mail is PKN9SK04PC9QSX (not sure if thats usable by more than one person or not). The wife ended up getting a Inspiron 2.3 GHz dualcore with 4gigs of ram, 500 gig HD and 8600 GT vid card, CD/DVD burner for $485. Not a top-end system but thats a great price.