f13.net

The above was a toss-out snarky comment in regards to some angst over Blizzard announcing they're integrating VOIP into the WoW client.  I meant it more as a joke than as a serious jab at 'old school' gamers, but I started thinking on it more as I was headed off to bed.  

It occours to me that this is much closer to the truth than not.  Voice Chat is being integrated into an increasing number of games.  The current generation about to hit the 'traditional' gaming age bracket has grown up with text messaging, cell phones, IMs, My Space and a much broader social network than any of us old coots ever had.  

Additionally, a game is seen as 'gimped' if it doesn't have the ability to play it with or against your friends. As such the inclusion of a multiplayer feature is almost mandatory these days and you're seeing more development without any single player component at all.  More and more computer gaming is a social activity rather than a solo activity.

I'm not saying that single player gaming is going the way of the dodo. There will always be a few titles developed with single players in mind, but it certainly seems to be that it's becoming ever more marginalized. Any one else agree with me?

This may just be the cure I need to get out of gaming for good.  Listening to a bunch of middle class, snot-nosed white teenagers droping N-bombs in voice chat is enough to make me want to eat my liver with a spork.  I play games to escape from the real world... not to be reminded of the spoiled brats I left behind at work.

Oh come on, over these years you haven't found your own network of friends? If you haven't, I can hook you up with some good people :) If its just lack of playtime or strange playtimes, sadly this genre can be pretty brutal.

To a very large degree, I'm in complete agreement with Merusk, and especially with Nebu.

I play games to escape.  90 percent of the time, I don't want to hear anyones voice unless it's PvP, and only then do I want to hear my teammates.  People, especially kids (anyone under 21) talk to hear themselves talk, and I just can't handle it in my old age.  I *refuse* to use voice on any xbox360 game, unless I'm doing co-op with a friend.

There's social and there's social. Most folks here have done the EQ1 pick up group grind fest, wether at Aviak Tower or Bastion of Thunder. There was a certain social safety in these activities, since there was an expected role for each person in the group, a pre-established social contract, if you will, that made even shy or anti social people 'ok' with the experience, for the most part.

Another thing is joining some disjointed WoW kiddie group and immediately being asked to interact over voice chat with them. I have enough of a sense of humor that I would probably navigate that hurdle, albeit ungracefully. However, I know plenty of people within my own guild who are absolutely panic-striken over the notion of voice chat with people they have known for nearly a decade online.

I'm of a peculiar persuasion. I like multiplayer games. But even online, I'm pretty sociophobic. I can't treat it as "just a game." I take online conversations just as seriously as face to face ones.

With people I've known for a while online or in RL, I'm fine. I get incredibly nervous interacting with utter strangers - it doesn't help that so many of them behave like asshats online. While I love BF42 and MMGs, I play them as solo games when people I know aren't around. In MMGs I avoid interacting with anyone. No PUGs, and no guild.

I think the last dedicated multiplayer game I bought was Auto Assault, and I never even activated my subscription.

I'd agree with that, to an extent.  I'm an outgoing person in the really real world and would hardly be considered shy, but for whatever reason, I tend to clam up a bit in MMOs, and generally (as stated before) avoid Vent/TS/VOIP whenever possible.  Maybe it's because I'm a bit insecure in my voice (it's very deep, gravelly.  I sound much older than I actually am.  Then consider the accent) at times, and at the same time, I really don't want to hear some 16 year old going through puberty shriek and wail every 1 second.

Hard to explain...

I feel pretty much the same way. I generally leave my mic muted when I was forced to use TS or Vent. I don't mind listening so much, but I'm not there to make friends -- I'm trying to play a fucking game. Unless I'm leading something, I've got no interest in speaking. And if you're not leading it, I don't have much interest in hearing it.

As it is I'm trying to keep track of what my wife's saying in the same room, what my kid is up to on the other end of the house, the solitaire game I'm playing while all everyone is trying to figure out what's going on, and trying to decide if that sound is my dog coughing or yacking.

Mostly, though -- I read a LOT faster than you can speak. I can keep track of five or ten parallel conversations in text, but if you're all talking I can't -- plus, I can't figure out who the hell is speaking half the time.

This is true for me as well, one of the reasons my family tolerates me playing WoW so much is I'm right there in the living room with them, usually talking and interacting to one extent or another. I'm not going to shut out my family by putting on headphones as an additional obligation to the game.

And I think it just comes down to personality too - for introverts like myself, interacting with other people is a drain. It's an effort. Not so much with text, but voice is much different - it really becomes something personal like talking on the phone. I hate talking on the fucking phone - I do it all day long at work and chatting with people - wether its strangers or guildies I've "known" for years - is just not something I want to do in my escapist entertainment.

Another thing is, I spend so much time talking on the phone during the day, the last thing I really want to do to keep talking once I get home.

MMOs are an escape.  I don't want to interact with anyone unless I deem it necessary to do so.

The flip side to that is:  Then why play MMOs if you don't want to interact?

For the most part, other players to me are just well coded'd NPCs, and I keep a close circle of friends that I help and rely on them to help me.  Other players add more 'life' and 'flavor' to the game.  They're an optional path for me to take should I decide to take that road.


Oddly enough, I've noticed I have three 'personalities' when it comes to games/gaming:
1)  My ingame personality
2)  My forum personality (Forums dedicated TO that game.  I tend to forumwhore the official boards, making most of my 'friends' there)
3)  My real personality (which is seen here)

Most people in MMGs nowadays are fucking asshats (as if they weren't previously  :roll: ). I really don't want to hear them. Hell, I have a hard enough time tolerating what they type out.

I can use VOIP with F13 well enough, but I have no interest in using it with random people. I don't mind listening on CS sometimes if what's being said is actually pertinent to the game, but I cannot be bothered to talk usually.

@Merusk: Are you just asking your question is relation to MMO's? If so, then naturally, I agree. The very cornerstone of the genre is socializing. I like to solo myself in them sometimes, but even I know I'm a freak for doing it. It's just not the right way to go about it.

As for other games, I disagree. The number of single player oriented experiences compared to multiplayer ones is still pretty immense.

This is my preference as well, and why my guild will continue to support its 150 man vent server regardless of what new games offer.  I don't want to hear the dumbasses that already annoy the shit out of me with their stupid text spam.

Add me to the list of people who feels uncomfortable using voice chat in games. I play role-playing games games to play a role, to be someone that I'm not in real life. Having to communicate using my own voice robs me of the ability to apply the 'filter' of being my character (without sounding like a total idiot, anyway) rather than just being me playing my avatar. The games that I use as an escape at times are becoming the very social interactions that I play games to avoid. For me, this is the nail in the coffin for the RP in MMORPG. The immersion is completely shattered by the voices of the reality I'm trying to escape. If only they could allow us to speak without using our own voices.

Having spent years learning how to communicate effectively through text or in-game action only, (without vocal or visual cues) voice chat seems like I'm learning all over again how to communicate using only vocal cues. I agree that it's mentally draining to be constantly prepared and willing to communicate, much like being on the phone with someone. There's no delete key or preparation time that text chat gives you, and I honestly don't feel as confident or intelligent in that setting. Sometimes I just want to zone out and play without having to be burdened with active communication with someone I may or may not like. The option of ignoring someone becomes less plausible when communication becomes audibly invasive.

On the other hand, I really like voice chat in situations where reaction time is critical. When playing BF2142 it's critical to be able to call out targets within a second without having to resort to typing and hoping they see it. Some of the best WoW groups I've been in were run by people with a good leadership personality via voice chat.

GET OFF MY LAWN

I also am in the same boat as Nebu, Merusk and well, most of the replies in this thread so far.  I admit to feeling a certain amount of justification when I read your guys replies because when I tell someone I've met in game that I refuse to use Vent/TS - I get routinely chastised.  As a tangent I think that's another symptom of MMO's generation 1 now being eclipsed my MMO Generation 2.  But that's another topic.

When I login to a game like WoW, I am in escapist mode.  I like the fact that I can have stimulating social interaction with living beings (not computer scripted AI), but if I wanted to sit and talk to people like I do all day in my job, I'd pick up the phone or go out on the town.  The other aspect of it is what I call "Light Switch Syndrome".  When you spend a lot of time on a computer you have total control over what you see, how much you see, and the duration in which you wish to see it.  I find people I know that spend waaaay too much time online get that disconnect from RL going, because they are used to being able to turn things and people "off and on" at will.  I am affected by this too, and it definitely affects my desire to have voice chat with people.  It's harder to extricate yourself from a group if you're all being chatty buddies that it is through more impersonal text.

I dunno, I just am not comfortable losing one more layer of separation in my online persona.  Also I'd say 8 of 10 people I meet in WoW are treading water in the shallow end of the gene pool, or are 14 years old.  If I want to hear people like that talk I can turn on one of those MTV shows about "real life".

They have VOIP in LOTRO but no one uses it.  I don't mind vent/TS but it is not really necessary to play any of these games.  I played years of EQ with just  chat macros and learning to type in what I wanted to say even during tough raids that I led as raid leader even.  Relying on voice can be a crutch though, you can do better having dedicated chat channels and having your players know how to play their classes to begin with.

But yes, hearing some lonely 20-somethings drunken diatribe on his odd sex life in real time does not appeal to me.

Yeah. Though I don’t hang out with the crowd who are “native” to all those technologies, everything I read says there is shift going on in how they divide up time and attention etc. I think Raph has a point when he says the big MMOGs of the future won’t be WoW clones. And not just with the teenagers, I think the retiring baby boomers will come on board with the right sort of games.

As to MMORPGs specifically, I play partly to create an interesting story for my character in a fictional world. The fiction is much easier to maintain in text than in voice. I don’t raid, so I don’t really need the extra “efficiency” of voice. At the level I play at, WoW is already ridiculously easy. At least for someone who thinks many of the best stories come from defeats, or at least close calls.

Like others here, I too use voice/hearing as my local, physical location channel and don’t want that moving in game. I'm hoping Blizzard has the sense to put up some non-VOIP servers for us.

Well guys, sorry...but welcome to 2nd gen MMO.

If you want to PVP, use voice. If you want to get smoked...use text. If you want to be effective in raids, use voice. If you want to wipe, use text.

I found that I have been part of the same group of MMO peeps for about 6-7 years. I went to Eve with a friend, and guess what? I talked on vent and made a whole new set of friends while pwning noobs. So I guess I can step out of my comfort zone.

I guess what I'm saying is, its not going anywhere. Select "Mute all" or something. Its as common as ICQ use in UO. The tools always start out of game and become encorporated into them as they become the standard. You can continue to use text and I'll continue to dance on your corpse. ;)

A number of the typical complaints about VoIP additions to MMOs and games could be so readily addressed with a little more forethought; throw in voice changer tech to help with the RP cross-dressing issues, add in some voice base mute /ignore support, but most importantly, don't force it upon folks, and don't remove the text interface for use socio-phobes who are never going to pickup a headset anyway :p

They could do like BF2 and have global, local, and team (group). Then toss in a guild voip channel, and it would be like vent.

But I can personally guarentee I'll have all of them but guild and team turned off in future games. I probably wouldn't use any of them except the team one in the rare event I'm stuck with a PUG.

I think we should all sound like robots so I can RP better.

If Xbox Live is any indication, VOIP is somehow going to make online gaming Less Fun. For me, anyway.

Exactly. The point is, I do want to wipe.. now and then. Sure, if you are playing to max your score, you don't want to ever wipe, and voice helps. But I am playing as much for the story as the score. A story that is "Our heroes defeated a dragon. Our heroes defeated a demon. Our heroes defeated a dragon.. " for 99 out of 100 pages is a really boring story. An adventure in which you never suffer any setbacks in not an adventure, its a vacation.

I like to hope that if Blizzard put up a non-VOIP server, it might preferentially attract people for whom winning isn't everything.

Or, you know, you could just play competently instead of relying on VOIP.

Hmm, now that I think of it I never raided again after my guild switched to mandatory VoIP. Granted, I don't like raiding anyway, but thats the point where I couldn't even be bothered anymore to help other people out when they were low on manpower or had healer shortage.

I crave a much greater degree and more varied types of social interaction in MMOGs than what is seen at present, just without voice chat.

Gimme a break. Its like saying "learn how to fight with a sword", when it sure is more effective to point a shotgun at something and pull the trigger. If you don't use the tools available to make you (and your team) better at a game, you better ALL be extremely good at what you do. And you still wont be as good as the team of guys using the tools available.

EQ1 raids, probably some of the harder raid content in any MMO, has been done for years and years without the aid of voice chat. Just because millions of ADHD morons joined the Boring Legion WoW raids and can't get their shit together without someone hollering directly into their PC speakers doesn't mean that should be an expected industry standard for raiding 'tools'.

Please attempt to argue the merits of VOIP vrs no VOIP when it comes to raiding/PVP.  :roll:

Since I am coming across as a raging VOIP lunatic, I should explain why.

Its that fucking essential in competition today. Helps when you enjoy hanging out and talking with the people you are on voice with. So, throw me in the 'social gamer' category.

When the VoIP fails you can tell who the skilled players are versus those who are just doing what they're told when they're told. It levels the playing field by allowing the unskilled masses to be given direction faster without requiring critical thought. In my experience the cleanest, most effiicent fights are usually those in which not a word is spoken other than, "Good job" at the end. Making it an integral part of the game will not increase the skill level of your average player, in fact it will most likely do the opposite.

Like most technology, it reduces the value of having well-trained individuals that can adapt and react to unexpected challenges.

They don't need to adapt. I tell them how to adapt :)

I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying. Many of the good fights there isn't a ton being said. But when you spot a group of people about to jump you from a direction, and can make an escape or a counter...instant communication trumps all. By the time you type, and I read your alert...its already to late. Using VOIP = losing skill ? Not buying it buddy.

On the flipside, I used to do some raid leading. No amount of instant communication in the world is going to make a player go from 'horrible at what they do' to 'solid raider'. They can be yelled at appropriately though for fucking up yet again ;)

VOIP allows your skilled individuals perform like a skilled team.  If your opposition never does anything particularly interesting or clever you are good to go without it, so long as your skilled individuals are well aquainted with both each other and the opposition.  As soon as the opposition becomes difficult, or even has the advantage, skill alone will not set aside skilled teamwork.  If the time before an action is required is much greater than the time allowed to communicate you can get by with text (or even email depending on the format).  In this context of Raiding or PvPing, where characters can die in seconds, VOIP is really the only method of communication fast enough to handle the required information flow.  We'll even skip the bit where humans hear/say information much more quickly than they can read it and again much more quickly than they can type it.

One of the chronic problems in American Rugby is that American players don't talk to each other enough on the field.  While individual technical skills may be excellent, lack of communication in the heat of competition allows weaknesses in the team to be exploited.  Teams that are always talking know where each other are, what they are planning to do, and what risks they've adopted with their current tactics.  I don't have time to write a little post-it note to hand to you when I'm trying to cover an opposition attack, similarly I don't have time to type out observations in the midst of an encounter where I need both hands to move my character and issue commands.

Personally, I prefer not to talk on VOIP in computer games - unless we're PvPing.  I use it to react to things going horribly wrong in raids since most Raids aren't really that complicated.  Raids are designed to be solved, other people are not.  It isn't like you've got to deal with 15 guys who can take your head off for both friend and foe at the same time in a Raid.  It is when you are up against other people in real time where VOIP becomes a necessity.

Voice chat seems much more appropriate for games in which the lore/immersion doesn't matter, or for those young whippersnappers. If people could be relied on to be in character, and use voice fonts, I'd turn on VoIP. And if I was in a PvP setting, where I couldn't care less about being immersed in lore, yea. Otherwise, if there's voice at all, I'd prefer it come from the game world, like what EQ2 had at launch and seemed to spend money again on for Fae.

RP Immersion <> Voice, basically.

VOIP is not so much to hold everyone's hand DURING the fight, but to explain the strategy and tactics before the fight. Explaining something like the first boss pull in Gruul's Lair (for non-WoW folks, it is a 25 man raid with 5 boss fight. At the BEGINNING of it) would be a nightmare. It would take forever, and then take forever AGAIN as people asked questions or needed to be updated if they happened to be AFK.

I was very hesitant to start using VOIP with folks I didn't know. However, 99.99% of the time I enjoy it- I am very new to an older established guild and I get a kick out of the veterans verbally sparring with each other when have downtime for some reason.

I was the same way. Ever since, any time I have been invited to someone's TS or Vent server I have enjoyed myself and thought it was great to put a personality/voice to a name. I used to be invited to Alliance TS servers (I was leader of a pretty heavy Horde PVP/raiding group). We would talk shit, and just have fun. I'd end up getting on the server after a good open field PVP fight or Battlegrounds scrap. Good times.

It is worrysome though to have Barrens chat transferred over to voice, but I'd never subject myself to that so it doesnt matter.

The problem is back seat driver syndrome. Most of the n00bs you have just wait, blinders on, till' someone yells at them to do the right thing, and nothing more.

If you wipe a bunch of times, they get the message they need to learn to play their class and learn the encounter rather than have 'daddy' tell them what to do.  It the "fail - learn - fai" cycle that sorts the good players from the bad ones that need to go find a new guild.  In EQ events I led when we used text chat only you had to be on your game, awake and learn what the hell was going on at all times.  Situational awareness was very important and this setup made the game way more challenging and enjoyable.  Most of the orders anyways could be done with a chat /macros anyways.  It's really not necessary.  Even when I was heavy into the FPS Enemy Territory and Planetside me and my bro' could whip up a PuG team with some carefully worded team chats to turn the tide of the battle.

I use voice chat in games, particularly when playing with my regular group in DAoC.  I'm ok with this because it helps us communicate things that take too long to type and makes the 5+ year old game a little more enjoyable.  I've also been in chat programs with many of you here in PS and UT.  I guess my knee jerk reaction is to it being required, especially for something as benign as PvE.  I don't mind hopping in vent with some people that I've gotten to know, but being forced to join a group in a game AND being slammed into a VOIP program as well could push me over the edge. 

I'm all for voice fonts--immersion I don't give a crap about, but I've known a number of female players who only play male 'toons to avoid dealing with immature BS, and I can't blame them for it.

Between our spastic ADD-ridden teenage guildleader and the aging hippie pothead contingent in my WoW guild, I haven't logged into the vent server in at least a couple months.  I just charge in, aggro the fuck out of everything at once with my Paladin, and then tank it while they do whatever it was they were going to do anyway--there's no use in trying to give them instruction of any kind.  They inevitably do something boneheaded, and I rez them afterwards.

And no, we obviously don't do major raids.

Put me in the "anti-social" camp.

SHAZBOT
SHAZBOT
SHAZBOT

I really don't want to hear 99% of the other players talk. I cannot stress that enough. Especially if there is PvP involved; your own side will bitch and moan constantly, and the other side, if you can hear them, will talk trash, and bitch and moan.

Don't even get me started on all the 12 year old children getting into games like WoW now. I'd sooner stab them in the face with an icepick than listen to them talk in a MMO. Big part of the reason why I never got into Guild Wars; because any outfit that was any kind of organized wanted you on Vent or TS.

....Could you imagine what the average group of GW or WoW players would be like on VOIP? The horror...

My guild was always in Ventrilo.  Everyone would sit in the lobby bullshitting, with separate channels for PVP and instances, to keep general conversation from being drowned out by "FUCKING HEAL ME!" and such.  When we would do SM library, we would stop at each readable book and take turns reading them out loud in fake accents.  We used to have this guy who would sing constantly if you let him get away with it.  And I would do this thing to some of the members I was cool with.  If they were bitching about something, I would bring up a really sad piece of music and set it to play over the channel as I mocked them.

Guildmate:  Fucking paladins always bubble!
Me:  (sad music)  There was this... this paladin... (sniff) ...and he... he... (music swells) ...USED HIS BUBBLE!  WAAH!

Voice chat is awesome.  Embrace it.  Because if you're too introverted to even speak out loud while huddled in your reclusive MMO dungeon, you have problems.  As for me, the prospect of voice chat with random retards almost makes me want to go back to WoW, just to fuck with the kiddies minds.  Whenever I would boot some random idiot from a group, and he sent me the obligatory "WTF?" tell, I would just start making shit up about how I didn't want him reading my mind because I knew he was with the Illuminati, or some such.  Voice would only make this better.

What you are describing is exactly what I've experienced - people on voicechat who think they are funny but are just painfully annoying.


Clearly you seem like an extrovert who thrives on interacting with other people. Plenty of people are just wired the opposite way.

My tolerance for voicechat is inversely proportional to the number of extroverts who seem to believe they are radio DJs and that "dead air" must be filled with inane chatter.  Those people, just like radio hosts, think they are hilarious.  Only 0.02% actually are.

I've never seen a problem with VOIP, if I'm ever invited onto a vent/TS server I'll go hop on it ASAP, and I always invite the little puggies to our server if we're doing a run or somesuch. I'm not even extroverted, which is actually why I probably like it, in my work I'm home most of the time by myself on the computer, and I don't go out much because I a) don't drink and b) can't stand smoke and c) couldn't be fucked. So most of my interaction outside of my family and close friends is online and as such I'm not tired of dealing with people like some people have said here.

EDIT: Also if I haven't heard you on vent it's going to take a LOT longer for me to care about you at all. The guildies that never used vent back when I raided? Who were they again? You're just a character to me until I hear your voice, THEN you're a person.

I'll drink to that - and usually when I hear that person.

I have been using voice chat since the days of Mplayer, with the fight channels and the chat channels and all that. I am very comfertable with it. I guess it helps that I am a horrible typer, and so using voice is much easer for me. I have a guild vent server, that we give out the password to very freely. If I am doing a pug in wow, I will give the vent info out, and some times have a blast with total strangers. On the other hand, if people are acting like douchebags, i have no problem kicking them from vent. Also, we keep a few locked channels for people to go when they want to not be bothered.

I think adding VOIP isa good thing.

Personally i've been using Vent/TS for years now, and I can't imagine playing an MMO without it. I'm always on my guilds vent server when i'm at my PC to chat to someone, whether i'm playing or not.

But as is obvious from this thread, everyone is different and you can't force tools on anyone :)

I'm not sure whether adding it into the game itself is good or not.

I do think its largly pointless because alot of the large groups of people that want to use Voice-Chat, do already and use Vent or TS etc.

Like has already been said, its in LOTR and hardly anyone uses it.

I guess the thing here is that there is a difference between a guild ventrilo and then having voice chat available in 100% of PuGs. Now believe me, I know the usefulness and near requirement of using voice chat in advanced PvE and PvP. I'm a raid leader and I'm the guy keeping everyone on their toes during raids. But I can see how introducing it to the built interface so that anyone can use it with minimal effort could cause problems. In the end it will really depend on what the social expectations become. Do you get shunned if you decide not to involve yourself or is it ok to not use voice chat in PuGs?

I can almost see how this goes. From what I've noticed, in WoW each server tends to form a set of unwritten rules as to the way things are done. This can be seen going from server to server. Some servers have a certain set of PuG loot rules that are used almost all the time. Some servers use certain strategies for certain encounters and other servers use different ones (example, I never heard of kiting Drakkisath with a hunter while I was on Shattered Hand. When I went to another server that's how EVERYONE did it). There's a lot of these unwritten rules, some pronounced and some subtle, that most people don't even realize because "that's just the way it's done", that is until you go to a new server and it's done totally different.

The extension of that will be the public's view of voice chat. On my current server using ventrilo in PuGs is VERY common. I've venture to say that 50-75% of PuGs have ventrilo access and actively ask group members to join in on it. This may be a result of there being many small to medium sized guilds with guild ventrilos but also who PuG a lot. I'm pretty sure on many servers using ventrilo in PuGs is not nearly as common. I can see this easily translating to built in voice chat. On some servers you'll see people being shunned or not welcome in groups at all if they refuse to participate in voice chat. In others it may be barely used at all, or be entirely optional. I've seen this same effect on counter-strike servers. Nearly all of them have voice chat enabled, but only on some is it used a lot.

At the end of the day, this will be good for some people and bad for others. It's clear that prevailing attitude for the people in the thread so far is that of actively not wanting to use voice chat in PuG situations. I'm sure some people will be shunned because of their refusal to use it. On the other hand there will be many people who benefit from having built in voice chat to use as well.

Voice chat can be good or bad.

In PVP-WoW, then VOIP is really useful and works, though I still only really like to chat with my friends.
In BF2, then I didn't mind joining my squads' channel, and sometimes that has really been worthwhile.

In PVE-WoW, my guild always wants to use fucking Vent, and sometimes I don't mind, but sometimes I just cannot be arsed.


I like playing quietly, not having to talk all the time. I like listening to music on my computer while I play MMOs, which I can't do if I need to listen to group chat through my speakers. I like listening to the Lounge room tv from over my shoulder. I like being able to chat to my wife on her computer next to mine or make or take a phone call. So in many situations, voip shits me up the wall.

Having mates over for an afternoon of WoW-grouping where we're all int he same room is great. That's social, though.

I raided in EQ1 for years without VOIP and we did the content of the day without much of a problem. I've been in WoW raids where the leader had a smooth and calm radio voice and did an awesome job leading the raid. Both can work nicely, but it's all very dependant.

I can imagine telling people in PUGs soon that not only do I not have a mic, but my computer doesn't have speakers....

I have no problem using Vent or whatever when it's needed - raids, pvp whatever.  I don't chat on Vent or whatever, though, and I'm not fond of hearing other people chat, because the only reason I use it is to be more efficient and focused on what I am doing while playing.  I don't like my attention divided when I'm trying to concentrate.

If what I'm doing doesn't require focus, I'm not on vent. I'm playing while chatting with the people I live with.

Bingo.

In my guild we made every effort to make it simple for recruits to get Ventrilo and encouraged them to do so.  Many were the times I personally talked some newb through installation and troubleshooting.  By the same token, if you refused, you were basically a second-class citizen.  This was a casual guild of friends shooting the breeze.  We weren't trying to build our numbers to raid or anything.  If you weren't interacting socially, we didn't have any real reason to give a shit about you.

It was the sort of guild where I could take a primadonna max-level priestess and throw her out on her ass on Day One for being an obvious cunt, and nobody cried about it.  I really wish I liked WoW enough to still play with them.

hi, i'm going to touch on a lot of points in lower case.

background:  prior to playing lineage 2, i largely viewed voice chat on the internet as a harassment tool in counter-strike.  coincidentally, i almost always have voice muted in cs.  i don't like talking on the phone, and voip was never even brought up when i was playing EQ1; i played most of my eq career as though it were a single player game in the presence of other people.

i can't imagine having played L2 without ventrilo.  the benefits were very clear, and i'd directly attribute my clans success to efficient communication, which was effectively a combination of VOIP and in-game text macros.  as a side note, my bias in favor of voip is likely related to my general boredom with mmo after EQ; boredom entirely resulting from a lack of any real engagement in the game.  the main thing that kept me playing L2 was the interaction on vent, and to this day i still hang out on the vent server despite having quit 2 years ago.  thats a topic for some other thread, i suppose.


Argument:

voice chat was imperitive to being a top clan; it eased dissemination of information.  it lets one group defeat two groups, a feat not necessarily attainable by "knowing your class".  independent behavior, however skillful, can't compete against skillful group behavior.  its existence means that if you're not using it, you're likely at a disadvantage.  if you want to compete without your voice, you have to buck up where they don't have to, and you still might lose.  it is a tool, it is useful, it will be used.

i'm not saying voice chat makes a clan instantly better, it can be quite detrimental when its full of banter and clouded with simultaneous conversations.  if you see any skill in efficient textual communications, you have no reason to deny that there is skill in efficient verbal communcation.  with this in mind, its clear that you need to moderate your channels if you're a leader, or find a new clan if you're under idiotic leadership.  people who behave detrimentally in chat, voice or text, should be dealt with, not tolerated.  they harm your ability to function efficiently, and scare away people who are already adverse to voice chat.

as far as casual conversations, by that i mean, non-pvp or non-raid communcations, i can understand not wanting to converse on voice chat, or at all, as though you were friends or obligated to chit chat with people.  i suspect this is where many people draw the line.  to them i say: avoid your heart out.  we had plenty of people who didnt have a mic, or didnt want to go on ventrilo for whatever reason.  it was fine.  it was at most a minor inconvenience.  we relayed in chat when we had to, or just told them to hang back and do what the group does.  if your clan can't handle that, find a new clan.  if you just dont want to listen to J0hnnyLawl running around shouting in some integrated voice chat, mute him, and go ahead and mute everyone except for your friends list or some such.  that's what i'd likely do.

integrated voice chat has more benefits than disadvantages, especially with a good mute system on both an individual and a tiered level.  it gives looser organizations of people readier access to what many consider a more convenient form of communication.  increased access to efficient communication can lead to more challenging gameplay, both in pvp and pve.  in many situations, this would increase enjoyment of the game, both competitively and socially.  while some annoyances may result, theres no shortage of agreeable people playing games in whoms company you can seek refuge; you might just have to look.

I know it looks like I'm harping on new guys... but, comeon. You have a shift key. Use it.

Shift was pressed at least 10 times in that essay. I counted.

Everyone on the internet wants to be e.e. cummings.

Anyway, most of the group content in wow [which was what sparked this thread] doesn't NEED voice comms. Stuff just doesn't happen that fast, and if it does, the individuals should be able to deal with it, assuming they know the fight, have some spatial awareness and are competent enough, even in "hard-mode" instances. For raids, sure, you need voice chat (especially to explain the fight beforehand and call out important events) -- but seriously, who  raids out-of-guild?

I'm very interested to see how "mandatory" voice comm will alter PVP battlegrounds though. It should be a good thing for WSG and maybe AB / EOTS, but AV... /shudder

Personally, I get on my guild's vent only when something's happening, I prefer IRC when it comes to 'shooting the breeze'.. dunno why, it's probably because my microphone sucks (and not being a native speaker doesn't help either).


-- Z.

I just assumed that post was a sophisticated 'pune' or 'play on words'. You see the thread is called 'Antisocial gaming'.

Obviously I didn't read it or anything.

Don't do that please.

Affectations like that tend to make you look like a pretentious wanker, or a tryhard "my-identity-is-i-am-teh-nocaps-guy" loser.
Making a point to state that you're going to be a "no-caps-guy" at the start of the post isn't a great start.

It's not even worth talking about.  It's coming.  It's easier to play-and-talk then it is to play-stop-type.  People are hardwired to look for more efficient solutions, and this is more efficient.  For those thinking that they will quit/not play/not buy - you put up with WAY more shit from MMO games then asshats in voice chat.  You'll adapt.

See that's fine with me, because in the game, I just want to be a character.

i agree that most of the time it would be unnecessary.  there are times even when talking in any form is mostly unnecessary if the game is straightforward enough.  i'd only really encourage people to use it when they didnt want to run a 3rd party VOIP for their guild/clan whatever.  i see the possibility for harder pick-up gameplay though, for those interested, which would benefit from a group voice chat system.  aside: integrated voice could lead to some midly interesting concerns about harassment.

ideally, i'd continue to use 3rd party programs, and then utilize any in game voice for castle siege/raid whatnot, by having group leaders within the clan keep their group related talking in game, and relaying higher level information in the 3rd party program.

(http://www.clickykeyboard.com/2005/keycaps/keys-069.jpg)

Nay?

but i'm busy finding out about your personalities.  i'll capitalize in other threads, Sir.

This one ain't gonna last long. 

Yeah.  HA!  He thinks we have personalities!

This one's gotta be someone's alt poster account.

The lack of caps seems somehow inconsistent with that avatar. He needs some type of "blow 'em up dude! toughguy" or "omg hot chick! drool!" avatar.

Hey now, I capitalize just fine.  In fact, if I'm not careful I find myself capitalizing in the Middle Of Sentences.  Like So. 

Anywho,


I was thinking more about PC games than anything.  Consoles are integrating MP more and more, but still focus on the single player quite a bit.  Admittedly my own focus on Pc games is a lot narrower than it used to be, but meh.

I brought this all up not as a general back and forth about TS/ Vent but more about all kinds of social integration.  TS/ Vent is just the most recent one we're seeing implemented. 

As to TS/ Vent themselves, I don't have a problem with either.  I used them enough, but dislike situations like WUA and Calantus describe.  I've been in 2 guilds like that, and it sucks.  You really ARE treated like a second class citizen and omitted from a lot of groups because they're put together over vent, without a single thought towards those not actually in vent.

 I've got 2 kids to look after if I'm on before they're asleep. Closing myself out by putting on headphones isn't an option, and nobody's willing to moderate their cursing so I can't play it over my speakers either.  So instead, I stay off, and proceed to bitch about the cliquishness.  Fun!

As to the implementation of VC into games instead of using 3rd party apps, it makes the most sense to me.  If you've ever had to walk a computer illiterate through downloading, installing and then setting-up either Vent OR Ts, you begin to wish there was simply an on/ off toggle in the game.   It also equalizes things across PUGs with less mess, and means smaller groups of folks can voice chat w/o paying to maintain a TS or Vent server - an extra outlay on someone's part.

Fuck you.

So, essentially, the conclusion is we'd prefer some kind of instantaneous Voice-To-Text feature option rather than straight VOIP so we don't have Screech's voice boring into our ears as our L55 Night Elf Priest takes a moment off to appreciate the visual richness of the Ogrimmar turnpike, 'OMG, noob. Y u no heal me? WTF?'.

I remember going up for the job of Lead Copywriter for Skype last year and was asked by the Head of Marketihng; 'You! What can you do to increase our subscriber base by 100% over the next twelve months!'. Me? A humble scribbler, your worship? 'I'd fix a deal with Blizzard to add voice to WoW', I bluffed. 'What is WoW?', he said without interest., 'Is it some kind of video game?'. Needless to say, I'm still freelance. And now someone is going to add VOIP to World of Warcraft? If it turns out to be a JV with Skype, I will... I willl... I will do such things — what they are yet I know not, but they shall be the terrors of the earth. Or, alternatively just watch TV, overeat and fulminate.

That would've been hilarious if you'd used the shift key.

These voip games that will herald the end of times...

1) They do have a mute button.
2) They do have a kick-from-group button.

Right?

Thought so.

Apocalypse averted.

Damn I'm good.



EDIT:

Just because I'm, you know, curious; how do you people play PnP RPGs? Do you pass notes to each other when you wish to speak? Because elves don't have a New Jersey accent.

if the same people are currently doing both, then presumably, they'd only be playing pnp rpgs with people they've spoken with before.
they'd unquestioningly use speech, as it would be the natural, obvious, and already existing method, rather than a new encroachment perceived as a threat to an aspect of their anonymity that has so far been enjoyable and quite the aid to their escapist goals.

I shout at my computer all the time.  It doesn't even blink.  It's frustrating.  Once, before I settled down and got married, I pushed it out of my thrid floor bedroom window.  It made a dent in the porch roof on it's way to the front lawn.  It was a Commodore.  It survived.  I'm much calmer now and I'm rarely physically violent with inanimate objects.  It no longer makes me feel better.

Do what I do :  Use animate objects.  At night in dark alleys with a number 2 skinning knife.

It'll make you feel a whole lot better.

I actually checked to see if there were any active serial killers in Glasgow.  Just in case....

They never caught Bible John, you know.

That's like 90% of the population.  More than that at Old Firm Games.

That doesn't really count though, does it?  That's just old fashioned sporting rivalry, no?

Old Fashioned like the Inquisition.

But I take your point.

You know, the brief time that I spent playing the latest unreal tournament, I DID use the text to speech stuff. If I remember correctly, I turned off the text box it was so good. That or I just ignored it, I can't remember which.

It's almost inevitable that some pervert will come on and start talking dirty to all the little kiddies who play WoW.  I wonder what the GM tools for voice chat will be like.

Preferably Gunnery Sergeant Hartman.

What's your name, scumbag?

Those poor kittens!

Bwahahahaha