f13.net

God's Punishment on Hypocrites (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18679412/)

Today, God has decided to punishment upon the Rev. Jerry Falwell for being a scumsucking dirtbag.  He was found unconscious upon the floor of his office and is currently in serious condition.

Feel my bile, bitch.

Unfortunately, the Moral Majority will live on regardless of whether or not he pops his clogs.  He's the jackass who made being atheist or just simply not Christian akin to being "un-American."  Him and his ilk seem to consider Christian foreigners to be more American that American non-Christians.   :x

Whoa. He's dead.

That was pretty quick!  Good way to go.  I'll probably linger....   :|

Falwell dies at 73 (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/15/jerry.falwell.ap/index.html)

This is one of those times that I hope there is a God, just so that smarmy fucker gets to answer to him/her. I realize it is bad taste dancing on someone's grave, but I seriously can't think of a single nice thing to say about him.


Merged this in from the thread I started in GD.

Didn't realize he was so unhealthy. Then again, I guess he was kind of a big guy -- and 73 years old isn't exactly young.

Yes, hoping someone will burn in hellfire through talking out your ass on earth is pretty shitty.  And if your post showed anything, its that the other side will NEVER do that  :roll:

Hmm. I had just assumed the God killed him because he wasn't tough enough on the gays.

I would love to respond, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

Reread the first line of your post and check for possible irony vis a vis your main point.

Technically, the first line of his post doesn't specifically say that he hopes that Falwell burns in hell, only that he has to answer to God for his behavior on the Earth.  What God does with him after judging him is really up in the air.  Since I know you're into strict construction, I figure you will now see my point. ;) 

I hope that fat bastard gets stuck trying to get through the pearly gates.

Too early? Not for this guy! Ho ho!

I just realized I can scratch him off my list.

Dear Rev. Falwell

Welcome to hell.

Love,
Tinky Winky

Some of you guys worry me as much as Falwell.   :-P

Yeah, he pretty much hated gays and used his religion to raise money and influence American politics. I can't speak to his soul at the time of his death, but I did find his stances on what a Christian should be in America to be way off base. Anyway, I don't think he was evil. I think he was horribly misguided on a few issues, and unfortunately he used those issues to define himself as a minister.

Ah well. I hope the Lord is forgiving when we all get there.

Are you sure there's even a monkey heaven?

I don't think even the longest human lifetime is enough to judge anyone for eternity, but God needs to at least give this guy a whack on the head when he gets there.

The world isn't a worse place for his passing though.

I'm sure 73 years of hell could be arranged then. Or a bit less even, I'm sure he was less of a dickhead as a child. At least up to the school years surely.

If there is a Christian god, (which I doubt) he is first and formost a god of forgiveness. I am not this guys fanboy. But I ask you "do you believe he really tried to do evil?". Or did he try to show the way as he understood it? Where was his heart? Was he trying to help people or hurt them? I am seeing the hate here as selfnissnes (Which I would see as evil). Certinly he managed to line his own pockets as he struck a nerve in others. Would you truly do different? Politically I am at the extreme  opposite of this guy but, I choose to morn his passing. My political opponents can be honorable guys. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean you are a bad person. It only means we disagree.

I won't miss him.  He'll have to answer to God for what he did on earth.  Hopefully he's got a good answer.  I don't wish him any ill will.  Ruling out entire groups of people just because of their orientations or beliefs is not exactly the way to go about winning people for the faith though.

I'm pretty sure Hitler thought he was doing what was right too. And Stalin. And Osama. I could go on of course, but you get the point. If you cut out people who thought they were doing right from being liable to retribution then you don't leave many left. I'm not even sure Saddam was entirely selfish, maybe he thought he had to be so hard on everybody else in Iraq to protect his people? Is that so wrong? Also, this is the God that will not let you get into heaven unless you believe in him and/or are baptised, yes? Or maybe not. I'm pretty sure you could get almost any definition of the christian God you wanted if only you ask the right people.

(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/5186/kitleryg8.jpg)


I was really just looking for an excuse to use that since I saw it in the other thread.

I'm sorry, anyone acting as a leader of a religion/movement/government who blames a class of people as deserving horrible fates or being responsible for the devastation of a major city and region is an evil person.  Being a reverend does not change that, and to my way of thinking makes him far more malicious than some ignorant hick who might agree.  He was a self-serving whore who used hatred to gain and keep power.

If there is a higher power, whether forgiving for the right reasons such that even he is allowed salvation or condemning him forever, then may Falwell finally understand the wrongs he has wrought.  I have no pity for him though.

Heh. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that. Complete gibberish for teh win!

My bet would be eight circle of hell with his head twisted around backwards. And that is no wish, but an estimation from his deeds on earth.

If there is a hell.

The end he got was too good for him.

Falwell is hit for 69 points of "eats too much bacon" damage!
Falwell is dead!
/target Falwell
/dance
You see WUA dancing with Falwell.

Heh, another perspective I suppose:
http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=124762&ran=68056

Don't get me wrong, he was a horrible bastard, but I thought it was kind of funny seeing the contrast.

Who ?

In case you weren't being sarcastic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falwell#Social_and_political_views

I'm sure somebody can find a much more intensive and damning article on the things he said and did than that very neutral Wiki article.

His biggest claim to infamy was blaming 9/11 if not all of American society's ills on the fact that we tolerated gays in this country. I'm not entirely sure if his final solution was along the same lines as WWII Germany, but I dismissed his allegations as bigotted quackery after that. I preferred to get my 9/11 truth from the real source.

(http://www.piratenews.org/southpark911-world-trade-center-conspiracy.jpg)

I'm really glad you didn't, you Cunt.

Oh and I should probably have put my 'Who ?' in green.

 :wink:

Even taking the Christian reference out of that quote, a statement like that is indicative of a much bigger thing than just education. It just shows how elitist, condescending of the populace, and weary of progress people like him are. The worst kind of conservative. That they want everything in their control, and they want everyone else stupid and doped up enough to accept that control.

So much hypocrisy here, it's frightening.

I hope that isn't directed at me (just wondering, because you didn't quote anything). I happen to like public education, so I'm not being a hypocrite about what I said.  :-P

In his last years, Jerry Falwell always reminded of the Pillsbury Dough Boy.

Somehow I dont see him going "Tee-hee" if you poke him in the tummy.

Larry Flynt tried poking him once, and got a decade long court battle out of it.

Guess he missed the whole bit about gluttony.

And maybe a lesson or two from Jesus about tolerance and forgiveness.

Ah, well. What do I know, I'm an atheist. According to Triforcer that makes me a commie dictator.

Nah.

Just people being intolerant (and filled with seething hate/rage) for a person who was intolerant of their views doesn't exactly help their cause much.

Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach had a saying for people with arguments like yours:

"Der Klügere gibt nach. Eine traurige Wahrheit. Sie begründet die Weltherrschaft der Dummheit!"

The Cleverer give in. A sad truth. It is the foundation of the global dominance of stupidity"

See?  Perfect example.

People preaching for tolerance need to be tolerant of other peoples opposing views.  If they aren't, then they're no better than the Falwells of the world.

Best course of action is to say "Well, your loss" to those that will never come around and move on with their life.

This meme is always pretty funny to me. It's such a blatant and facile attempt to claim a nonexistent high-ground as means of avoiding actually having to justify the warped views of the guy.

I'll admit it: I'm "intolerant" of asswads that are significantly responsible for poisoning public policy on numerous issues in service of a twisted viewpoint and helping to fuck up the country.  I guess I'm a bad person.

EDIT: Oh, and I didn't hate Falwell because he was "intolerant". I hated him because we was wrong about everything yet had a disproportionate amount of political power in this country. Plus he was an asshole.

I don't see it as such, Abo.  Just poking folks for not recognizing their own hypocrisy isn't claiming a high-ground unless you're then going to try and preach down to them. 

That said, yeah the guy had way too much power and influence and his line of thinking always scared the fuck out of me.  I worry more that I see it becoming more and more prevalent as time goes on. The lack of education and critical thinking is coming to a head, and it's not going to be pretty.

But it isn't hypocrisy. That's the thing. It's a strawman argument to begin with.

He hasn't (or didn't) fuck up the country any worse than anyone else has.  He's the extreme right that opposes the extreme left, which adds balance.

I'm not trying (and havent) to justify any of his views.  Never once turned this thread political, unless you want to say "being intolerant of people that intolerant to you because they don't agree with your views' is hypocritical.  

You (speaking generally here) want tolerance?  Then lead by example.  Instead, you get "you're stupid!!!" responses such as the one above.

FWIW, I disagree with alot of what Falwell pushed for, primarily because I believe in an absolute seperation of church and state and have no problem removing "In God We Trust" from our currency, and removing "Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance (bet some of you never saw that coming, did you?)

That's a highly debatable proposition.

Like I said, it's a strawman argument. You are positing that the dislike for Falwell is based upon the nebulous concept of him being "intolerant" when that has really nothing to do with it. 

Eh, whatever you say.

But it's still quite sad that people are dancing over the grave of someone who tried to lead their life for God, and has friends and family that are going to miss him.  To me, it's just dispicable.

As much as I hate the Kennedys and view them much like people here view Falwell, I'd not be dancing a jig if one of them croaked.

I think it'll be fine, and may not even escalate like many other issues in America's past (like slavery or segregation). To use a cliche, America is a project, slowly chipping away at all the little humps of intolerance and injustice it's faced over the years. Religious bigotry is just another face of the same disease that America, and ideas like it, were specifically built to fight. And it'll win, just like it has won against everything else that's come against it.

Either these bigots will be outright silenced, or their own offspring will silence them while they themselves die off, or they'll finally get with the program of their own free will and realize that this is a brave new world not fit for medieval thinking. And in the end, what will be left of them will be so insignificant that they won't matter much (kind of like how segregationists are treated now).

Nah, someone else will just step up to the plate.  Same for both sides of the fence.

Ah, we now have Part II. The "you are sad little people and I wouldn't do that" stage of moralizing.  I guess you are just a much better person than the rest of us. Thank you for blessing us rabble with your presence.

Under the dictionary definition of hypocracy, you're right.  Under the common useage of the word.. debatable.

  "Hypocrite" is used a lot these days to describe someone who's attacking an idea or person, yet showing those same traits they're attacking.  The reasoning being if you're attacking it, then you must be against it and therefore have a belief system counter to that trait.  So, you're being hypocritical by proclaiming a belief (by proxy) that you don't actually hold.

That better?  :-P

I didn't say every atheist is a communist.  You provided a quote about how great the world would be if all religion was gone.  I provided examples of soceties where religion was gone.  How hard is this to understand?

Re: Entire discussion:  As always, I am amazed that the left has adopted sneering contempt as the best selling strategy for their views.  Ask the guy you quoted (Adams) and his Federalist Party- saying "I hate you and you're stupid, adopt my views and vote for me" is curious marketing, at best.  

You're welcome.

(probably needs to be moved to politics...)

Oh please. Sneering contempt was patented by the likes of Falwell 30 years ago. Moralizing assholes looking down their noses at those without "family values" as a means of delegitimizing them. Give me a break.

Selecting the worst examples of your opponents in order to categorically demonize them was a tactic used well before 30 years ago, and by more people than "moralizing assholes".  Maybe it's probably better to say that it's only used by moralizing assholes, but that people constantly redefine what's moral to fit their own views.  Afterall, the only way to demonize a group is by pointing out how immoral they are.  It's just that you do it with a moving frame of reference on morality depending on what group you belong to.

I never claimed that it was exclusive. I just find it funny when some people pretend like their own shit doesn't stink.

My favorite Falwell eulogy. (http://www.tmz.com/2007/05/15/jerry-falwell-1933-2007/)

(http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.tmz.com/media/2007/05/pic-meet-char-tinkywinky.jpg)

To steal Cheddar's favourite phrase:  Tee hee.   :lol:

Christ, I really think the worst punishment we could give you Roac, would be to lock you up in a room of your own with no-one around.  You'd beat yourself up in a week after losing a marathon debate with yourself.

As to you, Snake, you make no fucking sense in this thread and even less of a fucking point, so go preach on your own fucking mountain.

It's not being hypocritical to say that you think someone's a fuckhead and you're glad he's dead.  If, however, I spent my life saying 'fuckheads shouldn't be mocked after death' publically, then maybe.

This is not intolerance, certainly not on my part.  I'm just GLAD he's dead.  There's no hypocrisy.


This shouldn't be moved to politics.  It's not worth it, no matter how much you might think it's all about you.

Christopher Hitchens must've put down the scotch long enough to say something correct for once.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/05/16/hitchens-slams-falwells-life/

I agree with nearly 100% of that.

Way to miss the point.

I'm not saying it's hypocritical to be glad someone is dead.  Pathetic maybe.  Hypocritial?  Not so much.  We're not talking about a mass murderer here, or someone guilty of genocide, or a serial killer.  We're talking about what essentially boils down to a preacher.

Who never had a child out of wedlock, incidentally.

But that's neither here nor there.

I AM saying that those who want tolerance for their <whatever deviant lifestyle> or <policital views> would do better to NOT be so intolerant of those that have views that differ from their own.  I'm sorry if that's too abstract of a thought for you to comprehend.  If you (speaking generally here, so that YOU don't think it's now about YOU - which I never made or thought the thread was about me) want people to be 'tolerant', then be a little less vindictive, bitter, and in general, a little bit less of a whiny bitch.

I'm not saying it should be moved to politics because of hypocrisy, or that I think it's about me (how you arrived at that conclusion I'll never know - other than I've posted in this thread as much or more than anyone), is because it's about an (obviously - dur) a political figure - religion be damned.

As I said before:  A member of the Kennedys could die, and I would have heartfelt sorrow for the family.  Be dancing?  No.  Say "Feel my bile, bitch?"  No.  Be glad he or she is dead?  Nah.  I guess I like to see the good in most things and in most people.  How in the world have you not sent your brains to visit the nearest wall with such a negative outlook on life?

Heh.  Deviant Lifestyle.

Fuck his family.  Fuck him.  Fuck their sorrow.

I hope they follow him down the pit.

When that fuck Phelps dies too, I'll also be doing the jig and having SEEN his family, you'll be damn sure my line will be the same. 

Child out of Wedlock.  Deviant Lifestyle.

Jesus Wept.

I see where you're going Snake, and I agree with you to an extent.

Gotta disagree with the Kennedy comparison though. This is much more personal than that. The Kennedy family (lol) may simply be politically disagreeable to people of a conservative persuasion, but Falwell was another thing entirely that transcends simple political disagreement. Him and his like are literally a destructive force to the way many people want to lead their personal lives.

Fortunately, he wasn't actually very successful at being as destructive as he'd like --- but the intention was there -- and that's why people damn him so much.

There's a difference between "tolerating" people for being what they are when being so harms no-one, and tolerating people who spread hate and vitriol out of misguided sense of self-righteousness. Notice I put "tolerating" in quotes because frankly I don't see why anyone needs to tolerate gays or blacks or anything of that nature. I tolerate my young nephew being a fucking brat when I'm dragged to family gatherings because hey he's a little kid and he's going to jump around like an idiot and talk really loud for no good reason whatsoever. I tolerate the loud party of a neighbour cause hey let em have that fun for the night it's not like they do it all the time. You don't have to tolerate someone being gay, it should be a non-issue unless they're tongue-wrestling in your face. To tolerate something you should have to be put out in some way first, anything else goes under the heading of "not being a raging dickhead".

Well said, Calantus.

I don't.  He's confused.  Disagreeing with Jerry Falwell is not being intolerant of his views.  Disagreeing with Jerry Falwell is not being intolerant of other religions or ways of life.

Jerry Falwell was intolerant not because he disagreed with people but because he sought to change them, not because he had a well reasoned and compelling argument that a rational mind could see was correct, no, he just wanted to change people because they didn't agree with him.

It's not a subtle difference.  It's actually quite glaring.

Why is Snakecharmer so intolerant of our intolerance for the intolerant? What a hypocrite...

lol!!

I think he was  a jacktard.  I'm also not glad he's dead.  Really, I guess I just don't feel one way or the other about his death.  So yeah...I'm not cheering or sobbing, just kinda...oh hey, that dude's dead. 

So I don't know where that puts me in this moralizing, etc., but certainly, I don't think he was an overall positive person to have around, even if his church managed to help some people along the way -- teaching intolerance is just rather uncool.  That said, it sucks for his family and friends that he's gone.  I guess.

It's funny because by your own logic I am quite correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0KhKEZo178 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0KhKEZo178)

If you really want to stretch my posts to a razor thin-ness, sure.  And it could be argued in circles neverending.

But, I could really care less how tolerant or intolerant you or anyone else is or are.  If people are that militant in their hate, far be it from me to tell them they can't wallow in it like a pig.  It's unhealthy, it's destructive and accomplishes nothing good.

So, by all means:  Be mean.  Be bitter.  Be hateful. 

See where it gets you.

Using the exact same logic you put forward originally is somehow stretching your post?


Clearly. I guess that is why you had the good sense to shut the fuck up and not come into this thread and call people hypocrites for being intolerant.

God's Punishment on Hypocrites (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18679412/)?

Cry me a fucking river. I did my little happy dance, I won't have to hear him make a new horseshit statement on TV ever again, and I imagine I'll end up forgetting all about him.

Yeah. It's called being 73 years old.  Old age.  It's a bitch sometimes.



As to the rest of you doing the dancing in the streets and happy that someone is dead?   

I truly pity you.

See, this is a win win situation. You get to be self-righteous, we get to not care and be happy!

 :thumbs_up:

Serious Business indeed.

Fuck that fat fuck right in the face. I hope he is having fun down in Hell right now, as he roasts on a spit run right up his hateful fat ass. I'm not sure if there's a level of Hell QUITE bad enough for a character like Falwell.

But I'm not a hypocrite; I'll just come right out and say that I hate fuckers like him who want to dictate how people should live their own fucking lives.

Yes, I am intolerant of his disgusting intolerance. Boo Fucking Hoo.

He could have changed for the better tomorrow and now he can't.

Rather, he had 73 years to try to work towards a better tomorrow, but instead, he fantasized about a past without public education. Among other stupid things.

Seriously, has no one started this thread?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/16/obituaries/16falwell.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/16/obituaries/16falwell.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin)

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=10005.0

The pseudo-politics stuff starts....well everywhere, but picks up on pg. 2.

Riiiiiiight. The title of that thread hadn't grabbed me. Merge threads at will, or delete mine (even though my title is more festive).

I'm glad he's dead. At least he's one less asshole with enough followers to do damage. I don't believe in hell, but I don't feel guilty saying I hope his last conscious moments were filled with fear and pain.

Get your jigs in and enjoy his death if you will, or mourn him as a courageous zealot who battled for God. There is no high ground there, he's simply gone and could care less about what you do. Just know your time is coming, and I pray many of you will make it right with God before it does. It honestly bothers me some days about how many people feel wronged by Christianity or don't trust Christians over the things that others have done to them in the past. I would just remind you to focus on God first and people second. Find out what he wants for your life and stop focusing on the institutions that will never get it right.

I just wanted to put that thought in before it goes off to politics to get rehashed in a place I never visit.

I'll admit to disliking the man and hating his message.  I'll cop to being relieved he cannot spread that message anymore.  I'm not dancing though.  I don't celebrate death.

I've had friends who were beaten by fucks that thought homosexuals are evil.  I know of thirty victims a year who die because some transphobic asshole thinks they're doing the world a favor to kill someone who finally found happiness.  Falwell was an enabler.  Someone who made these twisted people believe it is okay to hate because anything they consider deviant is a plague upon this nation.

I kiss a girl and I'm an abomination responsible for 9/11 and Katrina?  He can tell millions every week I'm fucking dirt this world is better off without and that's okay?  There is a difference between wanting to be allowed to live my life as I please (without hurting anyone), and someone who wants to change my life to suit their purposes.

I'm fairly sure there is no hypocrisy on my part.

Some people just don't believe in God, Paelos. It's nothing personal.

Its about time someone in this thread played the "BUT FURRIES AREN'T TOLERATED AT F13, HYPOCRISY" card, but I"m tired.  Someone elaborate on that point if the thread is in danger of waning. 

Excellent post Lantyssa. I agree that I am not "happy." The world is better off without him, and I can't think of many people I'd trade him with. That said, I'd rather he was just shot on a one-way trip to the moon. I'm not glad he is dead, I'm glad he is no longer around.


Obviously you've never heard of the "Buttefly Effect", which was originally known as the "Kissing Lesbos Effect" until a catchier title was found.

Edit: I have nothing against God or Christians, just douchebags. The fact that douchebags hide behind God just makes them that much douchier.

Paleos, do you consider Falwell a Christian? People here aren't dancing on his grave because he was a Christian; they just hate self-satisfied bigots of any stripe. This one just put on the Christian Costume, because that is the status quo in this country.

Major difference between not tolerating furries and not tolerating Bruce.

MAJOR.

I'm hard pressed to see any examples of him following Christs example.

This wasn't about Religion, it was about power.  Funny thing, tho, is Death eventually shows us ALL the impossibilities of power.

The funny thing is, even if you go for a quite literal interpretation (even Old Testament) this guy put himself in Hell quite a few times over. 

(Of Course, if you go that literal, there's really no way for ANYONE to avoid it.  Heh.  Religion is funny.)

Tolerance != acceptance.

I considered him a Pharisee more than anything.

I never saw Falwell as a cristian I always saw him as more of an old fashioned snake oil salesman. Giving the old dog and pony show to drum up business.

Before I respond, let me just say FUCK JERRY FALWELL, I HOPE HIS CORPSE GETS ANALLY RAPED BY A GAY MORTICIAN INTO NECORPHILIA.


If by evil you mean oppressing on entire group of people (Gays) based on sexual preference, and another group of people (secularits, anyone who didn't believe in the God he preached about) based on their spiritual belifs, yes, he tried to do evil. FUCK HIM.


In Salem, I imagine, trying to find a religious reason to burn gays at the stake.


If you were gay or secular, he was trying to hurt you through political means.

I say again, FUCK YOU, JERRY FALWELL. BURN IN WHATEVER HELL YOU IMAGINED FOR TEH GAYS.

It's one thing to be a tolerant person, which I consider myself. It's another thing to be intolerant of intolerance. Fallwell was, to use a McCainian turn of phrase, an agent of intolerance. He spread it like a fucking cancer. He devoted his public and private life to making sure certain groups of people were treated as second class citizens, were denigrated by their religion and by their families. He tried to make it illegal to do things other citizens can do, and he blamed 9/11 on tolerance of gays and atheists.

Tolerance has limits. My intolerance of his bullshit is impotent rage at the fucktardery of a public figure. His intolerance oppressed people.

I win. FUCK JERRY FALWELL.

With Falwell out of the way, that should be easier. His fat ass obstructed the view. /zing

Seriously, the problem with Falwell was how he used God and God's name, perverting everything about the message in his bigoted obsessions with gays and atheists. Without religion, he'd have had no argument to fall back on but "gays are icky." People like myself have such a problem with Christians BECAUSE of intolerant douchebags like him. I've nothing against Jesus Christ, or Christianity as a concept, but almost no one practices Christian beliefs anymore, especially those in the public eye. They just wear the label like Hilfiger of the Soul.

Christianity has become a brand name, and the message is quite clear. Be like us or we fuck you.

They're out there. They just don't seem to be as organized or desperate to have everyone recognize their beliefs. Probably the most high profile person is Jimmy Carter, but of course, he's old and not as relevant in this day and age (still quite the do gooder though). One could even put Barack Obama in this category as well.

I'm not going to bother making a big list. I think those two are indicative of how others go about things, so listing them is enough. People who keep religious subjects mainly private and just let their actions speak for themselves. It shouldn't matter whether they talk about religion or not.

Even in the past, some of the most high profile Christians (like Parks, and Coretta and Martin L. King) didn't bother with telling people about their religion 24/7. They were too busy trying to save the world to bother with that nonsense.

Exactly. Because it didn't matter to anyone but themselves what God they believed in, it mattered what they did. Falwell did nothing but denigrate people, then founded a school based on fomenting that same form of denigration into the next generation of college grads.

Paelos, I have been an atheist/agnostic all my life.  I envy you your faith, I really do.  I'm not being facetious.

But you know what, some of us just lack faith.  It's not because I think I'm smarter than you or other people who are religious, or that I've got an in on the Truth or some special vision.  For whatever reason, I'm not endowed with faith.  I haven't felt the calling or whatever it is that religious people feel.

I'm not a fan of O'Hare or that guy in Sacramento who sued over the Pledge.  I don't hate Christians or feel wronged by them or untrusting of them.  I wasn't raised an anything; I have no issues whatsoever with religion as long as people don't  insist that I believe their way.  I don't care if this is "one nation under God" or it's on the money or the ten commandments are on a building - it's no skin off my nose, I can ignore it more easily than scribbled graffiti, or appreciate the solemness of the sentiment depending on my mood.

I have trouble with people blaming "secularism" for the ills of society, because morality != religion no matter what Bill O'Reilly or the Pope says.  I think modern religion - excluding Islam, I'm sad to say; I shouldn't call that a modern religion since it hasn't had a reformation and likely won't - is probably very good for people. 

My daughter is 8.  Despite having no religious training or instruction at all, she believes in God.  (I don't know if she will later, but she does for now).  She finds comfort in her ideas about heaven and God.  My son who is 11 (today - yay!) does not believe.

I think it's just a very personal thing - this having faith or having a lack of faith.

I don't know what my point was.  Maybe to illustrate that not all non-believers wish you ill.

No, Indeed.  Most don't know it, but I was in organised religion for a large part of my life.

However, that WILL NOT stop me from commenting on people who are douchebags, religion or no.

Yes, Xanthippe I understand your points and they make a lot of sense. I don't think that unbelievers wish me ill, they just don't like organizations that perpetuate injustices (real or perceived) under the mantle of God's will. I don't like these people either and I've left churches over it. OTOH, I've also left because I had my own problems that had nothing to do with what they were doing at all, and then I told myself later it was their fault. Sometimes it's easy to blame them because they are obviously off their nut. Other times, it's a good idea to look inward and see where the problem really stems from.

Yes they will have a reformation. They are going through it RIGHT NOW, in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's what most of the trouble is really about.

The political cartoon that came out the other day with Tinky Winky guarding the gates to heaven definitely brought a chuckle.

Jerry Falwell was exactly the same kind of megalomaniac that used his "religion" to forward his political agenda as all the much derided (and rightfully so) muslim clerics who call for a jihad against all the infidels.

Different wolf, same sheep carcass.

Ouch.  Not just the BBC that's not giving him the time of day. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6682409.stm)

He's such a fat fuck. I just want to slap him with a big trout or something.