f13.net forums - Some guy from Maxis calls the Wii "a piece of shit"

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April 27, 2024, 11:29:53 AM

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Quote from: MisterNoisy on March 22, 2007, 10:33:37 PM

That $80 Monster 3' cable is no better than the 2m OKGEAR(?) cable you'll buy at Newegg (they're built to the same specs), and if you pay the $80 or more for it, you're encouraging bad vendor/retailer behavior, just like those people that buy Madden every year despite knowing that it's just a roster update and a slight gfx update.

You are just assuming that the cables are built and tested to the same spec. The problem is that all of these cables are built in China and it's basically a crapshoot what sort of quality comes out of there. Buying lots of cheap cables is certainly one option to try and solve this problem if you don't mind the hassle of returning the ones you don't need.

There's also the problem that the spec might not be good enough for the conditions that the cable is being used under and you need something that has tighter tolerances. It's like using Cat 5 cables for Gigabit Ethernet. In theory it's supposed to work but given the variances in manufacturing (again mostly coming from China) you are better off spending a little extra money to go to Cat 5e or Cat 6. HDMI 1.3 has a similar problem in that it can use far more bandwidth than the earlier versions but without requiring an upgraded cable spec to match it.

Quote from: Trippy on March 22, 2007, 10:55:05 PM

Considering that they're quite likely to be coming out of the same factories in China regardless of price/brand, it's not too much of a stretch to assume that QC is similar regardless of price. And yea - I don't mind returning defective products regardless of price. ;) I'm not saying that you're guaranteed to have great results with an $8 cable - I just think you're highly likely to have the same results with an $80+ cable, and that continuing to shell out that kind of money for them only encourages that sort of exploitative pricing.

Quote from: MisterNoisy on March 23, 2007, 06:37:41 AM

Considering that they're quite likely to be coming out of the same factories in China regardless of price/brand, it's not too much of a stretch to assume that QC is similar regardless of price.

Look up process variation and six sigma. Generally what happens is that everything comes off the same line and the ones that fit the higher tolerances and specs get the expensive labels and price tag and the rest get dumped into the bargain bin. You're pretty much guaranteed not to be getting the same quality because they select it out.

Here I thought DRM was the only complaint someone could come up with about hdmi. That would make sense.

As for signals, unless you plan on setting up some double stage circular multimedia kiosk, degradation shouldn't even register to you. Watching TV and playing games in your living room is nothing to get all obsessive compulsive about. It's bullshit.

As for cable prices, sure it's snake oil. Doesn't hurt to pay *a little* extra for well protected cabling/connectors though. That, I suppose, would be a practical concern. Whether it's gold plated or whatever though is a definitely a waste. Mr. Noisy has the right plan: Just spend the money on another game.

Yeah, I wasn't clear when I was talking about process. I wasn't defending Monsters prices, I was just pointing out that the cables probably ARE better even from the same plant and production line. Better in this case being an almost worthless metric when there is no difference between good enough and the best to the point of view of the equipment your using.

Quote from: Trippy on March 22, 2007, 10:15:28 PM

Both, though without testing it's impossible to say if the $100 cable is any better than the $10 one or if you are just paying for a thicker jacket with no additional shielding and a fancy connector.

I can tell you, based on disassembly of a Monster component cable, that it's a hair-thin wire with foil shielding. The sheathing is enormous, but the wire itself looks like an excercise in materials conservation.

EDIT: Our gigabit network connections are largely fibre. Just saying, but I think it bears out your comment on cable quality.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all the signals digital? The signal either gets there or it doesn't, right? There's no snow or degradation. The only reason why you'd want to upgrade to 'premium cables' is if the crappy cable you purchased is cutting in and out, like if you're trying to do a really long run or if there's interference.

I don't think it's correct to think of the entire signal as either 1 or 0. Could be possible that bad cables will drop bits and pieces of the picture.

But who knows. I just take the cable from the wall and plug it into the back of my 24 year old TV, and it works.

If a bit gets corrupted in a data stream you either have to re-request the bit causing a time delay or fudge it and use an interpolated value or the previous value or some such if that's allowable.

Either way you end up with a performance issue.

Quote from: bhodi on March 23, 2007, 08:36:46 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all the signals digital? The signal either gets there or it doesn't, right?

At the software level things are 1s and 0s but that's just a mathematical abstraction. We live in an analog world which means that at the hardware level those 1s and 0s have to be represented by something physical. In electronic circuits if you need to pass those bits between two places that's typically done by changing the voltage on an electrical signal. So for example just to make up some numbers, 1 volt might represent "on" or "1" and 0 volts "off" or "0". So if you need to represent 1 1 0 1 1 0, you send 1V down the line for 2 time periods and then switch it to 0V for 1 time period then back to 1 V, etc.

Now when you send one of these signals down a metal wire the "shape" of the signal you get at the receiving end may not be exactly what it was at the source end. So maybe what you get using the above example is 1V, 0.5V, 0V, 1V, 0.5V, 0V so now the hardware on the receiving end has to figure out what that means. Is that supposed to be 1 1 0 1 1 0 or is it 1 0 0 1 0 0 (1 SOS)? If it guesses wrong then the data on the receiving end is no longer what it was at the source end. And in fact if you make enough wrong guesses or enough bits get munged you get the digital version of snow (aka the "sparklies") or even worse things like seeing large blocks on your screen or even complete picture drop outs. People who have digital satellite TV in places with lots of bad weather (rain and snow) are very familiar with these sorts of problems.

Now one way to fix this problem is to have some sort of error correction protocol whereby the receiving end can 1) tell that the data it has received is bad and 2) somehow get the correct data. Standard Ethernet today, for example, uses just about as poor a wiring spec as you could possibly invent (unshielded twisted pair) but it compenstates for that by having a error correction protocol that's built into every Ethernet device so when bits get munged (and they do get munged) the data at the software level is not corrupted (unless you unplug things, cut the wire, or do something else extreme in which case all bets are off). Music CDs have an error correction protocol as well so that the CD player is able to recreate the data even if there are small scratches on the disc which essential "hide" the bits underneath them. Large circular scratches, however, would be like unplugging the wire temporarily with Ethernet, it just gives up, plays some noise or no sound at all and then moves on to the next part of the song if it can.

Unfortunately HDMI does not have an error correction protocol and the cabling spec is only slightly better than Ethernet (still twisted pair but the outer jacket is shielded, somewhat) even though it's carrying as much or even more data down the wires as Ethernet does. And so that's the problem. Depending on your setup, you may be corrupting enough of the bits going down the HDMI cable that the image is noticeably affected. Or not. It depends on a lot of different things. But the problem does exist. Hence the market for upscale cables which may or may not actually be better than cheaper ones but they are, at least at the superficial level, addressing a need for some customers. There are of course other customers who buy those sorts of things because they have to have the bestest of everything even though a cheaper cable may in fact give them the exact same picture with their particular setup.

I guess my question would be 'does anyone have any pictures of what a corrupted image looks like, and stages of gradual corruption?' I know the theory, but not being familiar with the HDMI link state protocol, whatever it is, makes me have no knowledge of how bad the picture might be. I guess what I'd be worried about is corruption that I did not notice as such. If it's obvious, like blocks, black squares on the screen, or something like that, that's no issue. You'd know you need to get a better cable. If it's more subtle, blurs, colors that aren't quite correct, something that you may think is the broadcast or camera, or display lag, that is when I'd be interested in a higher quality cable 'just in case'.

Quote from: bhodi on March 26, 2007, 06:41:46 AM

I've never seen sparklies in person but I gather from descriptions it would look something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsFb3Msd0n8

and it just gets worse from there including complete drop outs of frames.

Edit: while searching for a sample video I found this blog comment somebody posted which explains the cable problem very well:

http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/08/hdmi-port-coming-to-the-xbox-360/comments/1816516/

So it's pretty obvious when there are issues, and you can buy a cheap cable because you'll see immediately if there are any defects.

That is what I had with my PS2 cable, the red was missing. A dab of solder fixed that, though. Still using that cable with the PS3, looks fine.

Sparklies? I see green sparklies on hi-res CG (not in game) and static images.

I assume this is through HDMI. I don't even feel the need to read the post. Any other 1080p source looks fine on my tv, particularly through component. This is only through the PS3.

In an odd bit of Wii (and DS) news Mario and Sonic will be co-starring in a game together. The odd part is that instead of being a platformer, it's Mario and Sonic at the 2008 Olympic games in Beijing. So basically Track N' Field featuring Mario and Sonic.

Sounds like an ideal Wii-mote party game.

You know what the Wii needs.

More minigames.

Christ. Mario Party was enough to begin with.

Mate, that's what the Wii IS. Party games and Sports games.

I like the thing, but I ain't playing no Hitman or Splinter Cell with that fucking TV remote.

If people start thinking that way, my argument that the Wii isn't competing with the gaming industry, but rather the board game industry, will rule the day.

Someone at Nintendo obviously has it out for Milton Bradley.

Well, that's how I see the conslole as well as Ninty's strategy (seemingly) this-go-round. After all, the thing's been out for months now, and like someone else in one of these threads that I read today. I've bought more PS2 games than Wii games since the Wii came out.

For that matter, I bought more PC games today than Wii games in the last nearly-4 months.

I'm treating the thing essentially the same as I do/did my GC. As a cheap-ish platform to play Mario Party, Mario Golf (with extra arm-waving!) and anything that looks great and is somehow exclusive for whatever reason, or "fits" the Wiimote (Rogue Squadron, Cooking Mama). Anything more traditional I'll play on the PC/PS2 and later 360/PS3. Wiimote for driving games? No thanks.

Oh, and when Spore comes out, it'll be a PC purchase. Not a magic-wand-waving Wii purchase.