Statesmen Speaks at Origins

[HaemishM]

Shamelessly copied from a link off the Morlocks.

Stuff Stateemen said about CoH at Origins

One of my favorite quotes:

Many remarked on the negativity in the forums - Jack answered that the forum accounts for about 1% of the users. He does come in here and read this stuff. He is angered and annoyed by much of it. He also believes that most of the complaining is coming from players with levels lower than 20.

The negativity and whining on official boards is, as always, a HUGELY VOCAL MINORITY, not the feelings of the majority of players. In that post, he also mentions that CoH is closer to 200k users than 150k. It's still doing well, a fact that makes the cockles of my heart warm.

- Jack said that we are only at the very beginning of the CoH development lifecycle. There are a ton of things to come - and a lot of it this year too. The developers have been working hard on all of these new things, and it's not like they are all sitting around planning Update #2 - it's more like Update #9, with #2 almost completed and ready for testing. The bottom line is that lots of stuff is on the horizon for us, some of it has been mentioned here, some not, including:

--vehicle power pools
--expansions of power pools to include even more options
--expansion of powers in existing sets, including the addition of more powers for over level 40 characters.
--additions to mob groups, new bosses, new types of characters
--potential for citizens on street to randomly run up to you and give you a mission - like a "save my cat from the tree" mission
--a potential new winged race archetype and a possible alien one
--the ability to respec your character (to what extent he did not say)
--capes, cloaks, dresses
--more costume options, customizeable colors, etc.
--more zones, and not just in the city either. Jack made lots of mention about taking CoH into the full spectrum of comic book world locations - other planets, other dimensions, underwater, in the earth, etc.
--Although he did not announce this for sure, he suggested a forthcoming "City of Spies" where you could play characters similar to Nick Fury and be part of a S.H.I.E.L.D. type organization.
--City of Villains will not only bring PvP, but also Supergroup bases with vaults, NPC characters who guard the base, three villain groups, and the potential of base raids where one villain group attacks the headquarters of a supergroup.
--The ability to create henchmen and goons for a villain and similar assistants to heroes.
--expansions of story arcs for all levels, deeper stories (Jack said he has only scratched the surface of where he wants this to go) and the ability to go back and do the early arcs if you outleveled them.

Even if I'm not playing much, my sub will stay active so I can check out some of these additions when they get here.

City of Spies sounds a bit like that idea I put about cop players in my front page article. And very, very cool.

[Xilren's Twin]

Quick activate my "Go-Go Gadget Super-Robo Time Travel Power!" and go forward 3 years.  We must know how this turns out before it causing untold damage to the mmorpg bitching timestream....

Sounds neat, now only if I didn't have to hunt in Terra Volta.  I hate grouping with random people but the spawn groups are a wee bit large for me solo at the moment without hit and run, which doesn't feel properly heroic.  My freaking contacts all ganged up on me so now have 3 missions in that hole.

Xilren

[Soukyan]

City of Spies

I very much hope so. I'm loading up my NOLF music CD right now to get my super spy mojo on.

[boley]

Sounds nice.  When they actually manage to add the Supergroup lairs/bases, somewhat balanced PvP, and a limited form a respec then I might take another look.  Until that point, my 4 week tour of Paragon city was plenty.

[HaemishM]

I just want the WhipcrackMobile.

Chicks dig the car.

[Sable Blaze]

Balanced PvP in a level based, statistically driven MMRPG is an oxymoron. It'll never happen.

Personally, I think PvP in these games is a complete waste of time and it seriously screws up the PvE game with the inevitible (and doomed to failure) attempts to balance the PvP game.

When CoV goes live, I'd just take it for what it's worth and not agonize over it. It'll be a mess. Just have what fun you can and move on.

[daveNYC]

Best thing is, since the core gameplay of CoH is in place, and works (very few bugs); they might actually be able to incorporate their ideas into the game.

It's so much easier to build that addition on your house when you don't have to run around putting out the fire in your kitchen.

YOU HEAR THAT THE REST OF YOU DEVELOPERS!!!

[Sky]

Much like the other level-based pvp games, I'll probably never pvp in CoV, because I'll never max out my levels, thus always be at a disadvantage to those with more time and an inclination to burn through levels asap. My CoH main is 18th, my alt is 15th, the only two I have over ten, playing since the preorder weekend.

If I pvp, it's on a level playing ground (no pun intended....I think).

[ClydeJr]

--vehicle power pools

I wonder if the vehicles will be allowed in the current zones. Right now, vehicles don't really affect heros or villians. I wonder if you get get the Snowplow O' Doom and mow over zombies.

--expansion of powers in existing sets, including the addition of more powers for over level 40 characters.

I really hope they add more power sets to the archetypes. Ever though there's usually 5-6 per archetype, it would be nice to see more.

I want a chainsaw wielding scrapper.

--City of Villains will not only bring PvP, but also Supergroup bases with vaults, NPC characters who guard the base, three villain groups, and the potential of base raids where one villain group attacks the headquarters of a supergroup.

Kinda disappointed that bases won't be in until CoV.

[Big Gulp]

I want a chainsaw wielding scrapper.

I'd frankly like to see them adjust the visual power effects.  I like the idea of a claw scrapper, but I just really don't want to be a wolverine clone.  How about long-ass evil looking animal claws?  They could add different models for the assault rifle blasters, etc.  How about just making a "weapon" scrapper, and then choosing what type of weapon to choose from?  Knives, hammers, whips, nunchuks, chains, etc.  Most of the core animations could remain pretty much the same, simply with different weapons.

How about choosing what color and effects certain blasts/auras have?  It really doesn't change the core functionality, but it'd keep things visually interesting.

[CmdrSlack]

Changing the color of your effects would also add to fleshing out your character's specific origin story etc.

If you made a fire/ice blaster, you could add a bit of a blue core or shell to the fire effects for a nice icy hot (stuntaz) effect.

[daveNYC]

A choice on FX for the flight/hover powers would be nice.

[Dialogue]

I did a slightly different writeup of the talk over at MMORPGDot.

http://www.mmorpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=1006

[HaemishM]

The game was the best selling PC game for the last 6 weeks. It was only out for two days in April, and hit the top of the chart for that month. It was also best selling PC game in May.

They're almost at 200,000 players. There will be an announcement when they make it.

This gives me hope for the industry. Good beta practices, rigorous testing, and unmatched stability translated into dollars for these guys, and I hope it scared the shit out of MMOG developers the world over. Be afraid, you pigfuckers, somebody showed you COULD release stable and fun. No more fucking excuses.

Talking about adding voice chat, vehicles, and the like. These guys are ambitious, and I've seen nothing that makes me think they can't pull it off.

[shiznitz]

I would also love to see new powers, but there must be memory limitations to work within. SOE always used to complain about the size of the global models file as an impediment to new weapon designs.

I sure hope we can turn capes off.

[Sky]

Verant complained about that when they were still under the 4MB vram requirements, iirc.

It might be the presentation on my hdtv, but every person (who is a gamer) who's seen me playing CoH has bought or intends to buy a copy.

As usual, it's mostly the eqholic's buddies, and they all started on the wrong server, true to form. As an aside, teh eqholic finally admitted he's so addicted the only way he can get away is to delete all his characters, including several 60+ and one 65. The first step in healing is admitting you have a problem, I guess. I'd try to sell 'em, myself.

[Rasix]

The first step in healing is admitting you have a problem, I guess. I'd try to sell 'em, myself.

Worked for me.  As soon as I realized I was spending too much time on something I wasn't enjoying, I hit the ebay circuit with haste.  

You don't feel the pains of all that wasted time (well, not as bad) when you've just sold your account for more than a couple months rent.

[jpark]

Much like the other level-based pvp games, I'll probably never pvp in CoV, because I'll never max out my levels, thus always be at a disadvantage to those with more time and an inclination to burn through levels asap.

In Blizzard's WoW the last I had heard on this was that pvp would be instanced, and that there would be level restrictions on combatant groups going against each other.  That might work here.

In another thread, I think it was Haemish, suggested having all combatants sidekicked to the same level to smooth out level differences for pvp.  I like that idea, because level plays an indirect role still in allowing you to determine your portfolio of powers.

The SK mechanism part of the core of this game would make pvp introduced this way possible.

[Sky]

Problem is, there is still a level disparity, no matter how slight, it's an artificial advantage given to one side. I like pvp to be level, where advantages can go either way.

It really sucks to be the americans on Omaha Beach /every/ time. But at least that's by choice, if you want. If you are lower level than someone, either you go jump on the treadmill or you always will be disadvantaged.

[Alkiera]

Problem is, there is still a level disparity, no matter how slight, it's an artificial advantage given to one side. I like pvp to be level, where advantages can go either way.

It really sucks to be the americans on Omaha Beach /every/ time. But at least that's by choice, if you want. If you are lower level than someone, either you go jump on the treadmill or you always will be disadvantaged.

If everyone in the combat is level-adjusted to the same combat level, the only differences will be those inherent in the archetypes and skillsets, and the number of powers held by each character.  In CoH, more powers is mostly just more flexibility...  The later powers are slightly more powerful, but not overly so... your initial powers are still quite useful at higher levels.  So being higher level just gives you more options... just like Planetside.

I seem to recall 'more options, not more hp' as some kind of PvP/advancement-scheme mantra around here.  Maybe I was confused.

--
Alkiera

[daveNYC]

There is the whole enhancement slot issue, but a basic modification of HPs and damage would at least minimize the suck.

[Sky]

So being higher level just gives you more options... just like Planetside.
 

I disagree. Planetside allows everyone to take any 'power' after they first log in (if you do the tutorial). Levelling allows you to have more 'powers' at one time, but the entire set of options is open from day one.

I cannot pick Nova on day one of CoH. Or day 55 or whatever we are on :) Sidekicking me up isn't going to address that.

[jpark]

I agree Sky that the system may not be perfect - but I think it goes a long way to making things competitive.  In Shadowbane pvp even though level based - it was possible to take out experienced players that are higher level through a superior "build" or team strategy.

SB had its problems of course.  It depends on the game itself - how steep the power function is when you level.  In EQ, even 2 levels difference is huge.  In contrast, for Shadowbane 10 levels was huge difference (but my friends had taken on gankers 15 levels higher than them - though not often). I have no idea how CoH might behave in this regard.

[CmdrSlack]

While I see your point, Sky, I think that the main problem depends on certain powers becoming "essential."

If Nova was much more essential than a lower power in the pool, to the point where not having it in PvP would make you horribly gimped compared to a higher level char (even with the SK balancing) then yeah, I'd agree that level would still be king.

However, since you can pick and choose between all the pool powers and your primary and secondary powers, I can see how it *could* be a step towards minimizing the suck of PvP in level-based games.  

The main thing is that you have to make sure that the higher level accessible powers aren't so amazing with the SK-balancing that they become the end-all-be-all of PvP powers.

Case in point would be the fact that the most amazingly kickass earth controller powers (fossilize and, to some extent, salt crystals) come wicked early in the levelling scheme.  Granted, controllers aren't the best example since they're HP wussy and do nil for damage.

If you (the designer) make sure that all of your pools (all pools in game) have sweet powers that you can get early, I think it really could go a long way towards making level no longer king, assuming the SK-balancing move.

[eldaec]

Problem is, there is still a level disparity, no matter how slight, it's an artificial advantage given to one side. I like pvp to be level, where advantages can go either way.

If everyone in the combat is level-adjusted to the same combat level, the only differences will be those inherent in the archetypes and skillsets, and the number of powers held by each character.  In CoH, more powers is mostly just more flexibility...  The later powers are slightly more powerful, but not overly so... your initial powers are still quite useful at higher levels.  So being higher level just gives you more options... just like Planetside.

To an extent you're right, but later powers are a bit more than just flexibility, things like stamina, hasten, and so on just plain increase your power once you can fit them in. These powers stack to make other powers more useful. In planetside you can only be carrying and using a limited number of your abilities at once, and they don't stack. In CoH it's not unknown for a tanker to be running half a dozen damage mitigation powers simultaeneously, once they get them all.

Also high levels will benefit from easy availability of SOs and more slots to put them in (bear in mind that a single slot can add 33% to damage), and lvl 50s will gain probably the biggest single advantage of a settled and completed enhancement collection.

The Devs have even talked about the possibility of adding special power pools that only open at 40ish.

Even assuming that in pvp all players are 'kicked' to the same level, a lvl 50 is going to beat a level 30 the vast majority of the time.

That's not to say this isn't an improvement from games where a lvl 30 simply cannot hurt a lvl 50 in any way *cough*DAoC*cough*.

[eldaec]

One other point.

COH pvp is thought to be almost certain to be instance based and have limited numbers on each side (probably grp vs grp best fits the context anyway).

This means 2 things...

1) pickup groups simply will not be viable.

2) minmaxed gank groups from guilds will rule, and places in functional groups will be at a premium, you will need a complete template to compete for a space in a functional group - never mind to compete with the opposition.

[Sky]

I think pickup groups would still be viable, the way there are pickup TFs. Whether you would want to get involved with one is left up to you...

I agree about the minmaxed catassers ruling the day.

I mean, I don't see how SK's lowbies with limited power choices and enhancements are going to be able to deal with folks who have the bulk of their powers, and well-enhanced to boot.

Don't get me started on pets.

It might be fun, because Cryptic has delivered fun, something pretty rare imo in the mmog genre. But I don't expect it to be fair, or fun for very long. But I am hopeful, because I used to love comics when I was a kid, and pvp is natural for the setting.

[Big Gulp]

It might be fun, because Cryptic has delivered fun, something pretty rare imo in the mmog genre. But I don't expect it to be fair, or fun for very long. But I am hopeful, because I used to love comics when I was a kid, and pvp is natural for the setting.

Well one thing that could balance things out are the information kiosks around town.  They haven't gone active yet, but when CoV kicks off they could keep track of which villain/hero groups have been causing the most trouble around the city.  It would fulfill the function of sort of a bounty system, but in this case if you're a successful villain (or hero) group you'll have a lot of folks gunning for you.  In this way we'll have the biggest catass groups fighting one another and largely cancelling each other out.  It's just a case of the nail that sticks out getting the hammer.

Of course, no PvP system is ever going to be perfect, but I think that this could help out.

[HaemishM]

Don't forget the mission system. While I'm sure there will be places where you can PVP and nothing but, I'm sure there will be mission-based PVP isntances in which the mission won't be to "bitchsmack all the other team." There will probably be a good bit of missions with objectives that don't require the other team's destruction to be completed successfully.

Sidekicking everyone to the same level will help, and yes the higher levels will be more powerful simply from flexibility. This is one dev team I think can pull of a decently fun PVP game out of a PVE base.

The very fact I can actually have faith in a dev team after the raping I've taken from this genre is amazing.

[Sky]

The very fact I can actually have faith in a dev team after the raping I've taken from this genre is amazing.

I have to agree heartily with that sentiment.

[daveNYC]

I agree about the minmaxed catassers ruling the day.

They always do.  If they have to put some effort into kicking ass, as opposed to it happening just because they got to 50 it'll be good enough.

The very fact I can actually have faith in a dev team after the raping I've taken from this genre is amazing.

It's good because Cryptic is making it?

[HaemishM]

The very fact I can actually have faith in a dev team after the raping I've taken from this genre is amazing.

It's good because Cryptic is making it?

As hard as that is to believe, yes. I have not seen anything that makes me doubt their abilities.

If MMOG history holds true, that faith will have its tiny, infant head dashed against the rocks in front of a line of drooling pedophiles.

[Dialogue]

As hard as that is to believe, yes. I have not seen anything that makes me doubt their abilities.

If MMOG history holds true, that faith will have its tiny, infant head dashed against the rocks in front of a line of drooling pedophiles.

I went into the seminar expecting to listen to yet another egotistical designer wax philosophical about how he's going to ownz0r the world, and was met by a very different animal. Say what you will about Cryptic, but Jack Emmert's the real deal. He's like, every wanking editorial I've ever written made into human form.

Make it fun for the players? Numbers mean nothing? Where have you been all my life Jack? :)