Healing in CoH

[jpark]

Healing

There are many areas and levels to CoH I have not seen.  But healing is normally so important in a MMORPG I invite you guys to think about the heal spells currently in game and their implications.  My familiarity is based on my Empathy / Psychic Defender.

Absorb Pain.  This is really a return of the complete heal, which SOE apparently has vowed will not appear in EQ2 based on how much it changed EQ.  Complete heals allow chain healing and chain healing leads to the fall of titans.  CoH maybe zerg based now -  but may have the capacity for tank-healer style raids seen in EQ based on this ability.

Healing aura.  An AoE healing spell that in my experience as an Empathy defender (18) has never drawn aggro.  I think this favors larger group sizes, since the hp per cast increases with increasing group sizes, making the healer’s endurance per stamina point more efficient.  Zerging is a part of this game and may continue into the higher levels – since this cast addresses attacks that take place upon party members beyond the tank.

Resurrection.  Technically there is no rez in CoH since death always gives exp debt (e.g. no EQ style cleric rez to recover exp hit).  So the secret is to avoid death.  “Get out of Jail” free cards that can usher a hero from certain death may be teleport self or phase shift.  Such insta-escape options reduce deaths and may be come essential as we climb in levels and exp debt penalties following death grow.

Aura of Recovery.  Group healing over time.  Currently, I can only cast its sister spell that has the same effect on endurance (I am level 18 empathy defender).  If this healing version of the endurance cast is just as good – this spell will impact healing so much in the game that no high-end group can afford not to have a healer with this specific ability.

The funny thing is that there seems to be less healing in this game than with other MMORPGs.  If that is true – it is understandable that many tanks are not rushing out to get AoE taunts like provoke.  It is rare there is enough healing in the party to keep up with the damage the tank is expected to soak with AoE taunts.  This might mean that in high end encounters, the idea of a “main tank” sustained by focused complete heal casts (e.g. EQ) may give way to several tanks operating simultaneously – all healed with AoE spells.

Ah well I am speculating.

[geldonyetich]

Empathy is a tip of the iceburg of overall healing powers in the game, albeit the most potent part of said iceburg.   But then, in City of Heroes, healing is complicated, and I wouldn't approach it with the idea of "healers" like you would in other MMORPGs.    

Let me attempt to outline just how wacky it is:

[*]Everybody can heal themselves with a respite inspiration - as many times as they have inspiration slots.  
[*] Medical is also a power pool power, allowing for any hero who invests in them to heal themselves and others and even ressurect.    
[*] You can't bank on every Defender out there being a Healer because only about half the power sets even include healing abilities.
[*] Ressurection, last I heard, carries equal experience debt loss to taking a trip back to the hospital.   It's really more of a "avoided travel" power.
[*] There are even "self-ressurect" powers.
[*] There's no shortage of mob control powers out there.  Skillful players (particularly Defender, Controller, or Blasters) may be able to avoid the vast majority of damage that would be coming at them otherwise.
[*] Certain archetypes, most notably the Tanker, can take damage much, much better than other archetypes.   Combined with the previous point, you could say that if you group is in dire need of a healer at all, you're probably doing something wrong, or at the very least fighting something considerably high level.[/list:u]

[eldaec]

As well as what geldon said, it's also worth noting that in most cases cc takes the typically critical role that healing had in other games.

And that's pretty well spread around the archetypes/powersets.

I always find it utterly depressing when I get a tell (as a storm defender) 'can you heal?'. Most people mean 'are you empathy?' but don't like to say it. This generally misses the point imo, as defenders are pretty much designed to prevent damage or repair it in equal measure.

The critical thing that makes CoH what it is that straightforward tactics like heal-tanking don't really apply, perhaps most notably because as mentioned above, the plain old single target heal will not keep up with mob damage.

If this healing version of the endurance cast is just as good – this spell will impact healing so much in the game that no high-end group can afford not to have a healer with this specific ability.

I hope the playing community as a whole does not fall into this trap - I really do doubt that any such power is so essential as you suggest in CoH - the reason being that there are so many other apparently overpowered abilities in the last two powers of each group, that I don't doubt that the various enemy damage prevention or group damage acceleration powers would have a similar effect on outcomes.

So far (up to level 20 at least) keeping this sort of thing in check has been CoH's great strength imo. People do keep saying it changes at higher levels - so maybe I'm just an incurable optimist, but I certainly hope not.

[Tebonas]

Playing an Ice/Empathy Controller, I actually find that my friends who play that game with me can play just as well without me in the mix (meaning neither Controller CC nor Empathy Heal line), just as we can play without the tank or without the blaster.

Thats the good thing in CoH, you don't need well balanced groups, you just need a grasp which tactic works best with what you have got. And for everyone having seen 5 people in Sebilis shouting for a Crowd Controller for hours, that can only be a good thing.

[Xilren's Twin]

Complete heals allow chain healing and chain healing leads to the fall of titans.  CoH maybe zerg based now -  but may have the capacity for tank-healer style raids seen in EQ based on this ability.

Healing aura.  An AoE healing spell that in my experience as an Empathy defender (18) has never drawn aggro.  I think this favors larger group sizes, since the hp per cast increases with increasing group sizes, making the healer’s endurance per stamina point more efficient.  Zerging is a part of this game and may continue into the higher levels – since this cast addresses attacks that take place upon party members beyond the tank.

Would you give us your definition of zerging in CoH then?  When I think Zerg, I think of hordes of players trying to take down single high powered foes through sheer weight of numbers.

If anything CoH seems the reverse of this; each player is expected to cope with more than one mob.  It's not uncommon for even a solo player to take on enemy groups of 6-10 mobs each fight, and these groups contains LTs, Boss or combo's.  I haven't heard that this changes at higher levels, only that the bosses start become very very scary making them a priority to take out.  Still, other than trial missions, and 8 person group is hardly a zerg force to me.

Two other points on healing.

Geld also forgot one major healing factor..escapability + rest.  With all the various travel powers in CoH should you get into a messy situation it's very likely you can escape it without dying at all.  Even the basic sprint allows you to outrun mobs and they don't chase you eternally.  Plus the indoor mission have elevators and zone lines to add to that escape factor.  So anyone can get in a bind, escape, use their Rest ability and be back in the fight in seconds with a high degree of success.  Again mitgating the need for a true healer.

Also, the death penalty itself isn't so harsh that you mind dying.  There are even powers that key off a team mate or even yourself dying (Mutation and Vengence come to mind), which fits very well into the self-sacrifical hero comic book theme.  How many other games can you think of where your death could actually serve a purpose?

Maybe it changes dramatically post 20 (i hope not), but up through 17 there have been plenty of groups I'd been in that haven't had anyone with a true healing power (just my single target o2boot) and I hardly ever use it b/c it's not needed.

The "classic" healer (a no offense support char whose sole job is to stand around waiting to keep other characters playing) doesn't seem to serve much purpose yet.  Personally, I think thats a good thing as having played an EQ cleric for a while, it's not a playstyle that add much to a game in terms of fun.

Xilren

[eldaec]

The "classic" healer (a no offense support char whose sole job is to stand around waiting to keep other characters playing) doesn't seem to serve much purpose yet.

I find the real purpose of an empathy defender in my group is that I can shift the powers I use to the more offensive ones - rather than those focused on cc or damage reduction.

It's not that a pure healer serves no purpose, it's that (like all characters) they aren't 100% necessary to play efficiently.

[jpark]

Geld & Tebonas -  Good points.  Certainly I am working with some old assumptions from other MMORPGs that may not be appropriate here (we agree about the use of resurrection).  To your point once in a group I find the team gravitates to tougher villians - otherwise I don't have a lot to do unless this is the case.

Eldaec - Yes I agree - single target heals may not keep with damage so the classic "healer-tank" coupling may not work in CoH for tougher villians.  There are many ways out of this - I am wondering if in tough fights multiple tanks supported with AoE heals is the way to go.

Xilren's Twin - Oops sorry about that, ya by zerging I meant villian zerging not player zerging.  Post death abilities (Vengence, Pheonix) sound neat - a totally different way at looking at a hero's contribution in combat following death.

[DarkDryad]

Hahaha you guys must not have ever hunted with Aslan and Riggs. I spend a good ..oh 80% of our higher end hunts keeping them up and blasting. Ask them. Once you get into the level 2x and up mobs a healer is pretty much a nesessity unless you load all of your insp slots with respites and higher. I heal now on average of around 90 for HA and 170-180 for individual heals and  am constantly shifting on these guys to keep them going. I leave for the weekend to find them in debt and hating it.

Ok guys you may now praise the DD

[eldaec]

I suspect the real trick to high end encounters will end up being massive buff and debuff stacking.

CoH appears to fundamentally be high speed D20.

If you can get the uber mob attack score and tank def score to the same kind of level everything becomes managable once again.

[Bipolar]

Agree that good cc really works to minimize the need for a dedicated healer, but .... but when the shit hits the fan, cc doesn't stick or someone aoe's over sleep, then the defender/empathy with Healing aura, heal other and absorb pain is your best friend.  I play a defender empathy/dark and am only level 15, while I typically get in groups where everyone is 5-6 levels higher than I.  Whether we do missions or outdoor roaming it seems to have a significant impact on the group once they get a dedicated healer.

Yes, I totally agree that you do not have to have a dedicated healer or two, I do believe that you will attain the best mob throughput with one or two in a full team.  I know I hate debt, I'm sure others do as well and the best way to avoid it is with a party member or two who can keep you alive when the crap hits the box fan.

[Alrindel]

CoH's success is that they've managed to set up class/group dynamics where no one class is indispensable.  If you want to play an empathy defender and do mostly healing, you can make a huge contribution to a group that way, especially if your team is taking on tough bosses.  But if a group doesn't have a healer, they can still take on those bosses, they just do it differently, playing on whatever strength that particular group happens to have.

[Aslan]

I agree, at least so far, this game seems very well balanced, in that a good team can be made up of all kinds of combinations.  Yes, two blasters, a scrapper, and a healer can do pretty well.  Just don't get used to a healer who bails on you on the weekends or you'll spend your whole Saturday in debt, cursing his name.

[Alrindel]

Oh, also - when you start fighting mobs at 20+, the empathy "Clear Mind" spell for unmezzing starts to become much more important.  I dunno which other archetypes/power sets get a comparable skill - do controllers get that too?

[Daeven]

I seem to be spending a lot of time with my O2/Psi Defender, who has only one heal skill. While O2 boost can be potent stacked with heal enhancemects, that isn't the point of the character; he's all about crowd control.

Ice strom to slow and damage, Psi Lance to snipe, Psi scream for a nice cone, and gale to reposition mobs as necessary.

If all you want out of a defender is healing then you are probably missing 90% of the thr classes utility.

d20 3.5 war cleric is probably the best analogy I can come up with.

[Bipolar]

Oh I definitly do not just heal.  The beauty of CoH is when no controller I can throw my aoe disorient, pull with sniper shot, dot/blast at my tanks target vis autoassist.  I actually enjoy a group even more when I can do some blasting and a little bit of healing.  As long as a group plays to it's strengths and mitigates the weaknesses given the character makeup at a given time, anything is possible.  Usually quite fun to find what works and hit stride.

I did EQ and DAOC clerics, I would hate to be back in the role of pure healer all the time like those require.  CoH is all about archtypes not stereotypes.

Yeah Daeven, love to have good cc in a group, post 15-20 this seems like ti will be a must.  Tanks wading into big groups with a boss even an empathy healer or two has a hard ime keeping up, but add some good aoe cc and it gets one hell of a lot easier.  So far I am liking the fact that people are not nailing down group compositions to certain archtypes and skillsets, hated that about EQ and DAOC.

[DarkDryad]

Oh, also - when you start fighting mobs at 20+, the empathy "Clear Mind" spell for unmezzing starts to become much more important.  I dunno which other archetypes/power sets get a comparable skill - do controllers get that too?

Yeah thats my next skill purchase since discovering the ink men. I hateses thems I do.

[WayAbvPar]

The only time I REALLY felt my group lacked a healer was when we were running the Positron task force mission. The first 3 or 4 missions were just STACKED full of orange and red con mobs (probably yellow and orange to the leader). They were tightly packed and would aggro together. We spent the better part of a couple of hours learning that hit and run tactics were the only way to NOT have to run back from the hospital (right Delf? =P ).

The whole thing took us about 10 hours (only to have the leader discon bug fuck us...charming). It would have taken maybe 6-7 with a good healer keeping us A) in the fight and B) shortening downtime after the fight.

For normal missions, I would say that an empathy healer is a luxury, not a necessity.

[DarkDryad]

I agree, at least so far, this game seems very well balanced, in that a good team can be made up of all kinds of combinations.  Yes, two blasters, a scrapper, and a healer can do pretty well.  Just don't get used to a healer who bails on you on the weekends or you'll spend your whole Saturday in debt, cursing his name.

Hey can't say I didnt warn ya.

[Bipolar]

Since this thread is about healing . . . ok, shit hits the fan, tank, blaster, scrapper and controller are all losing health like mad.  Who do you focus healing on to save?  Tanker cause he is better at taking damage?  Scrapper and blaster cause they can dish it out?  Controller cause he can hopefully aoe cc and give you more time?

Just looking for some thoughts.  I tend to do tank, then any other healing type, then controller, blaster, scrapper in that order of priority.

[Shockeye]

Just looking for some thoughts.  I tend to do tank, then any other healing type, then controller, blaster, scrapper in that order of priority.

Who is currently holding aggro? If the tank is, then heal the tank. If it's a big bad boss who can 1-2 shot kill controllers and blasterss, then I don't want to waste healing on them since I'll probably need to rez them regardless.

[RipSnort]

ok, shit hits the fan, tank, blaster, scrapper and controller are all losing health like mad.

If it's a pick-up group run like hell, it's obviously a bunch of loose cannons who got in over their head. Hehe, just kidding.

With my controler (mental/empathy) I launch a group heal and would expect all range fighters to be near me for receiving it. Then I'd use a single heal on the meleer in most dire need.Back up some and repeat, die or run like hell.

[Daeven]

Those situations? Heal the tank, slow the Mobs, and start spamming F6 until the 'tards figure out there is a problem.

But that's just me. :)

[WayAbvPar]

Heal the tank. He can draw aggro from the others, and other archetypes (other than scrappers) are farther away from the mobs, generally speaking, and have less far to run when things get ugly. As a blaster, I run away when my health gets red. If I am pursued, I stop, get off a sniper shot, and continue until the mob is dead, I am dead, or the mob loses interest long enough for me to get some health back.

[Bipolar]

Cool, thanks for the replies.  They will help me mentally set some priorities once I am in a group before the scat hits the mat based on AT's and cc abilities, then I should be able to work without having to think so much on the fly.  Or not, mostly they are PU groups so maybe I should just get tp and port away like a giggling mafman!! woot woot suckers

[schild]

what?

Edit: Oh, and you're welcome. I think.

[Delf]

We spent the better part of a couple of hours learning that hit and run tactics were the only way to NOT have to run back from the hospital (right Delf? =P ).

Well, minimizing the run-back-to-the-mission time places a poor second to surviving the fight, but then you lose out on that moment of bliss once every hour or so when the fight's over and nobody died ;-)

That was my first grouping experience in CoH, and I think I have more of a Tank mentality than is healthy for a Scrapper. Being a 2-Scrapper, 2-Blaster group kind of twisted the dynamic for us, too. Not sure it's much of a data point on the usefulness of healing Defenders.

[DarkDryad]

Since this thread is about healing . . . ok, shit hits the fan, tank, blaster, scrapper and controller are all losing health like mad.  Who do you focus healing on to save?  Tanker cause he is better at taking damage?  Scrapper and blaster cause they can dish it out?  Controller cause he can hopefully aoe cc and give you more time?

Just looking for some thoughts.  I tend to do tank, then any other healing type, then controller, blaster, scrapper in that order of priority.

I do a heal dump meaning I hit healing aura between each individual heal that way everyone gets about 100 hp to hold em over each time then take the one lowest in HP.

[HaemishM]

That task force mission Way was talking about is really the only time where I've thought, "Man what I wouldn't do for a healer." But even then, it was mostly just a matter of us realigning our tactics to fit the situation. We got THROUGH the missions without the healers, it just would have taken less time and resulted in fewer deaths if we'd had one.

And it sure beats fuck out of what would have happened in EQ or DAoC. We'd have died twice, maybe three times and everyone would have gone their separate ways to make up for the experience we'd just lost, all the while complaining about how the game requires a healer.

[Alrindel]

In EQ or DAOC that group would never have even set out without one healer, one buffer, one mezzer, two tanks, two blasters, and no thanks we don't want any gimpy scrappers (rogues) in our group.

Funny aside, one guy was bitching in Broadcast about some "griefer" who trained a mob on him while he was trying to quit, and he died and "lost a whole bubble of exp".  When it was patiently explained to him that CoH has no XP loss he refused to believe it.

[Delf]

By the way, I have experimentally verified that at 11th level, one cannot incur more than 2500xp of death debt.

I did it all in the name of science, that's my story and I'm sticking with it.

[Sky]

In EQ or DAOC that group would never have even set out without one healer, one buffer, one mezzer, two tanks, two blasters, and no thanks we don't want any gimpy scrappers (rogues) in our group

Ooo! But we do want a mana-healer! Wait, what do you mean you're a lord of the undead, not a mana-healer. TWITCH ME BITCH!!!1!

Ok, so I played a necro :) I quit when I couldn't get a group unless I played mana cleric. If I wanted to heal, I would've played a cleric the first 50 levels. Goddamned bait and switch...

[jpark]

I hope this is not seen as thread de-railment but the flip side of healing is endurance recovery imo.

I have been using the Empathy's Recovery Aura for group stamina regeneration in a party and I cannot get over its massive effect in a battle.

Now, when with a group of blasters who do not need my healing, I cast this little gem mid combat when almost everyone is at 20% endurance and we finish the fight with basically full endurance.

This is arguably the best ability of my Defender / empathy.  I'll be the first to admit it - it should probably be nerfed.  And this is before I have added slots to it (currently level 19).

[HaemishM]

Endurance recovery for me would be HUGE. I can't get through a 3-4 mob battle without being low on end.

[jpark]

Concluded there is ZERO aggro associated with healing.  Last night invisibility was cast on me - which remained on while I healed the party.  Dispelled when I attacked.