Ranged vs Melee

[stray]

Is it me, or has "ranged" always been less damaging than melee, but with the added benefit of being safe from a distance? So why is it that in CoH, ranged not only has the benefit of distance, but is also more powerful and effective? Some others perks are that melee mobs are the most important type to avoid, and that more than likely, you'll almost always be facing multiple targets (AoE's are so useful in this game it's not even funny). Before I whine about balance issues, am I missing something here?

There shouldn't even a be an "either/or" situation in the first place (Archetypes/Classes), but that's a whole other issue I guess (and too late to bitch about anyhow).

[Sable Blaze]

Actually, my impression was ranged isn't more powerful. Not so much by benefit of being ranged as so much as being part of DPS archetypes' powersets. I've seen tankers and scrappers that did damage comparable to many ranged attacks. Snipe attacks tend to be pretty nasty, especially with buildup. However, these come (generally) at fairly early levels. The extreme damage melee attacks come at later (usually MUCH later) levels.

Balance would be more in the line of risk. Blasters are the typical very high damage class. Once you get into the 20s, blasters are very much at risk if mobs get to melee range. I've heard in the 30s, they can be one-shotted pretty easily by bosses. Hover is one answer, but in missions it won't help you all THAT much. Also, the dedicated melee classes have many more hit points and the tankers take less damage overall anyway from any attack.

Additionally, the impression that tankers do little damage isn't a accurate one. As a whole, the class is a late bloomer. More specific builds (axe) can do absolutely sick damage, BUT...it comes much later in life. It's also fairly situational since tanks typically have END problems. Hasten/buildup axe tanks can absolutely demolish boss mobs, assuming heavily enhanced superior or extreme melee skills. Mace is somewhat more limited, but does well. I personally can't comment on the others.

I think it's just an impression folks get from seeing blasters and defenders early on with the high damage attacks the ranged skills get at those levels. Melee attacks like disembowel or cleave are easily as destructive, but you don't see them until 30th level or so. Snipe, zzap, and psionic lance, for example, are all available below 10. Also, blasters are geared to just these sorts of attacks and little else. Tankers and scrappers also have to worry about defense to varying degrees, so they can't really simply concentrate on offensive skills to the exclusion of all else.

[geldonyetich]

Scrappers and Blasters do the most damage in the game.  It's what they're built for.  Wether the Scrapper does more damage than the Blaster or vice versa depends both on which powers the heroes have taken and on the situation.

I think in general, Blasters will do at least slightly more damage because they have: 1. Build up (Most scrappers get this too).  2. Aim (Scrappers do not get this, most Blasters do).   3. Lots of ranged AOE/Cone attacks (Scrappers only get PB AOE/Cone attacks).   Throw these together in just the right combination, and no Scrapper will be able to match it.  Though perhaps Scrappers will get close in the right situation however.

On the other hand, when your crowd control powers fail and Hover isn't enough to keep them out of melee range, the Scrapper is considerably better off under the brutal attentions of the mobs.   Scrappers are not nearly as durable as a Tanker, but lots better than a Blaster.   Blasters can consider this balanced since they have, in addition to the previously mentioned edge in damage over scrappers, crowd control powers, at all.

It's really hard to compare from first hand experience in the game because which powers one hero chooses to take over another can make a tremendous difference.

[eldaec]

Melee has the advantage of more single target damage in case of scrappers, more accuracy, more HP and resistances (way more in the case of tankers), generally better cc resistance, and better secondary powers.

Ranged (specifically blasters - the other ranged ATs have very low damage output) has the advantage of prettier particle effects, better single target damage than tankers, flight, more aoe damage than scrappers or tankers, and the ability to chase down fleers more easily.

In practice, at high levels tanks appear to be better against bosses, blasters appear to better against minion zergs, scrappers are somewhere between the two. More than that though, the relative power of the 3 ATs seems to depend on what cc your group has....

Mez? Tanks always better. (aoe not allowed, reasonable length cc duration, blasters have to avoid aggro)
Root? Tanks usually better. (mobs still doing ranegd damage - aggro control necessary)
Hold? Blasters usually better. (aoe usually best for taking down mobs before cc wears off)
Repel? Blasters always better. (mobs being skittled around the room like crazy - tank hell)

/shrug

I think CoH handles it pretty well tbh.

The real debate that MMOGs seem to get confused on is balance of how range should be paid for, specifically how much tank survivability is worth. The trick is that the answer depends a lot on how good mob AI is.

[stray]

scrappers are somewhere between the two

Picking up the scraps is where (at least those that are kindly left)...That, or out soloing. They don't have a useful (read: neccessary) role in mixed groups. They're better off just standing there in a group of blasters, cc, and a tank. Then again, gettin' a free ride in those groups isn't really something to complain about either (it's just not fun, that's all).

I don't think they need more HP's, DEF, or ACC (which would probably negate the usefulness of tanks and blasters both), but more AoE's could probably help (considering that the damage game in CoH kinda caters to it).

[eldaec]

Scrappers have better single target damage than anyone at all.

They have the second highest defence in the game.

They are currently better soloers than anyone else at all.

And they are considerably more popular choices than tanks or defenders.

They do have a role.

If I were inclined to adjust them at all I'd look at improving aggro management (would also help tankers), giving one of the toggle powers in each defence set a stealth and/or invisibility effect (not that this isn't already available in the pool), and maybe look at developing some of the single target attacks so that they get a smallish bonus if used in a particular way (on a targets front/rear/side, when you have/do not have  aggro, on cc'd targets etc), and a smallish penalty when used in other situations. The latter point is really about adding more decision points in combat than seriously changing balance though.

EDIT:

Oh, and no classes are necessary role in a group.

None.

You can manage entirely happily missing any one of them.

[stray]

If I were inclined to adjust them at all I'd look at improving aggro management (would also help tankers)

I could live with that too.

Oh, and no classes are necessary role in a group.

None.

You can manage entirely happily without any of them.

If you mean class-based games aren't neccessary, I agree. I haven't enjoyed one yet (but I'm really trying in this case).

[eldaec]

I meant no class is necessary in a CoH group.

[stray]

Oh...Well, I guess I'll have to look into that. I haven't had a chance to be in a group without at least 3 or 4 blasters in it (I'm also pretty sure that if I played my blaster in scrapper-based group, I'd still be actually killing shit).

[Sable Blaze]

Scrappers do have a rather nebulous role in a group. It seems they generally end up being "tank-lite." They can do this, IF they're built around the idea of parry and heavy on the passive defenses. Still, their defense is mostly avoidance, and when they do get hit, they tend to get hit HARD.

They're a very flexible class and do best on their own or in small groups. Large groups tend to tackle more extreme situations and there is no substitute for tanks in those.

They are quite good as taking out point targets. However, some tank builds excel at this as well (fire/axe for one). Scrappers do highish damage very quickly. Lots of attacks. Tanks (well, axe tanks...mace, too, to a lesser degree) tend to do extreme damage with fewer, slower attacks. Scrappers do their best with groups that are built around crowd control. Then mobs are held and can be taken out with (relative) impunity. Tanks can be CC all on their own (assuming the blasters can restrain themselves from going berserk on AoE attacks).

It's a matter of learning what you can do in what situations with your party makeup. If you have a force defender in your group, you can/would do things differently than if you had a dark defender. Same with scrappers. Group heavy on crowd control? Run around and assassinate stuff as you see fit. Large group in high level mission (purple con bosses), assist the tank(s) and lay down the hurt (and hope the blasters do likewise...).

[Murgos]

Is it me, or has "ranged" always been less damaging than melee, but with the added benefit of being safe from a distance?

Um, it's just you.  Dedicated 'range nukers' have ALWAYS out damaged melee.  For example Wizards in EQ.  I think Teras Ksai in SWG is the only game where there is a melee attacker that can out damage the pure ranged attacker.

Scrappers do have an issue in CoH in that they cannot really be a successful main tank, they just suck up too much of the healing resources in that role.  However in a group with a main tank they function very well as skirmishers soloing the boss, for example, while the rest of the group kills the minions or keeping the attention of the mobs that the controller missed.  It's the specific group with no (or an underpowered) healer/no tank that I think is causing most of your issues.  In that situation an optimal grouping is one of two controllers and everyone else blaster, pretty much anything else is extranious.  Still I've been in that grouping a couple of times and I wouldn't say having a scrapper or two along is worthless, just maybe not optimal.

[geldonyetich]

Melee has the advantage of more single target damage in case of scrappers, more accuracy,

Hold on there, lets not play the accuracy game.   [Geko:]All powers have a 75% chance to hit an even con unless they say otherwise[/Geko].  ALthough I have found two exceptions:

1.  AoE powers (regardless of archetype) are usually the ones that carry a small (usually -10%) accuracy decrease.    In the primary power set, there's actually the same ratio of single target to area of effect targets with Blasters than there are scrappers.

2. Sniper powers actually have an accuracy improvement.      

Considering Blasters get an Aim power, they actually get a little more accuracy than Scrappers.

In practice, at high levels tanks appear to be better against bosses, blasters appear to better against minion zergs, scrappers are somewhere between the two.

Actually, my lvl 19 Scrapper has a nice tendacy to slaughter purple con bosses and barely take any damage.   Course, I pop 6 inspirations, which helps.

One important thing to keep in mind is all archetypes operate relatively the same potency at level 1.   It isn't until about lvl 15-20 that they've diversified enough that you can really make out their differences.    Your Tanker may seem to be doing oodles of damage at level 5 compared to a Scrapper, but the Scrapper'll be clearly outdamaging you by level 20.   Defenders oft times recieve a rude wakeup call about their damage dealing capabilities at about level 20.

The big issue is that this isn't just enforced in the power selections, but actual damage infliction / damage taking tables in the game.    You'll take less damage as a Tanker than any other archetype even with all your powers turned off.

Scrappers do have a rather nebulous role in a group.

Really, with some archetypes the role is indeed quite nebulous.   Defenders, for example, vary from being crowd control, buffers/debuffers, wanna-be nukers, or plain healers depending largely on their power picks.

A few things I will say for sure about my lvl 19 scrapper:
1. He pulls a pretty good "assassination" role in a group.   See a particularly annoying enemy boss/lt?   Send my Scrapper after it, he can assure it goes down much faster.   I just have to be careful to avoid the aggro from most of the minions, which is doable with all your handy Blasters firing off AOE attacks without descrimination.

2. While they don't hold a candle to a true Tanker at taking damage, the Scrapper's still better at it than a Defender, Controller, or Blaster would be.   My Scrapper's a regen scrapper, which basically means I can buy time when I need to.   The damage tables I mentioned earlier take care of my damage taking ratio.

3. Scrappers are uber soloers.   Try to solo with a Controller, you'll need a lot of patience to deal with their slow damage dealing, and this cripples the Controller to be largely a grouping class unless you have said patience.    Try to solo with a Blaster and you can, but it takes some real finesse and even luck to keep the mobs off you and survive.   Try to solo with a Defender, your success largely depends on which power sets you've chosen, but in general you're more efficient in a group support role.   Tankers are okay at soloing, but they're not quite as expediant at it as a Scrapper.   Nobody has the raw Offensive/Defensive balance the Scrapper possesses that makes them the Porsches of the soloing car show.

[eldaec]

Melee has the advantage of more single target damage in case of scrappers, more accuracy,

Hold on there, lets not play the accuracy game.   [Geko:]All powers have a 75% chance to hit an even con unless they say otherwise[/Geko].  

My statement about accuracy was only based on my subjective impression from my own scrapper and blaster; neither have passed lvl 15, so I could believe this if the devs say so - though it does surprise me.

[Sable Blaze]

Technically, scrappers have no innate extra %tage of accuracy. Katana and broadsword do have an extra 5%, since they're drawn in weapons and a bit slower to activate. Same thing with assault rifle vs. other blaster types.

[geldonyetich]

Source  (4/27/04)

This is Romor Control

I persoanlly promiss you on my mother that we have NEVER changed accuracy! not for blasters or anyone else, or any power set. It has always been the same.

We will never "Stealth nerf" accuracy. There is absolutely no need to. It is not fun to miss. We do not want to make the game less fun. We would sooner raise villain HP than lower accuracy, and we would tell you if we did so. But we have not plans to do even this. We are happy the way it is.

There is no need to change it. IT is 75% to hit an even level foe with a targeted power (not considering buffs or debuffs)

Any time you think you do not believe me, do this:
*Take any character.
*Find a villain that is your level. be sure to pick one you are sure has no defense buffs, and cannot debuff you.
*Dont use a power that buffs you or debuffs them.
*The best example I can offer would be any low level hero against a hellion. I sugest low level so you wont be defeated while trying. I suggest hellions b/c, while they do have some damage resistance (guess what damage type), they have no defense buffs or ACC debuffs.
*Pick one power. A Faster one will make this easier.
*Now attack foes that are the same level as you. Try to take on 1 or 2 at a time so as not to get distracted by the test.
*Attack 100 times. Count every hit and every miss. Obviousely, you will need to find more than one target as the first one will be defeated.

I guarnatee you that you will hit about 75% of the time. I say "about" because it is random. The more itterations you test, the closer you will come to 75%. You will notice strings of misses and strings of hits, but the more you test this, the more you will see it is 75%. Many beta testers have tested this, and the results are always the same.

Players often think they are missing more than they should becasue you never notice the hits as much as you notice the misses. misses never happen when you want them to.

[Geko's sig:]--------------------
This is Rumor Control - Accuracy has not been nerfed!
It is still 75% to hit target unless the power says otherwise, there are buff/debuffs used, or the target is not your level.

(I think his spelling is like that because he's gone without much sleep that week.)

It's easy to convince yourself that one archetype/power may be more or less accurate than another.  One you keep your eye out for it, it becomes a very selective memory thing.   However, Geko's said many, many, many, many, ect, times that to-hit accuracy for a powers is 75% with a only few noted exceptions.

Technically, scrappers have no innate extra %tage of accuracy. Katana and broadsword do have an extra 5%, since they're drawn in weapons and a bit slower to activate. Same thing with assault rifle vs. other blaster types.

Yes, this is true.   Technically all the Scrappers have to draw a weapon except for Martial Arts and Dark Melee.  On the other hand, 80% is not really noticable over 75% due to selective memory.   A single generic accuracy enhancement  (10%, which translates to 8.3%) more than overwrites the difference.

[eldaec]

Yes, this is true. Technically all the Scrappers have to draw a weapon except for Martial Arts and Dark Melee. On the other hand, 80% is not really noticable over 75% due to selective memory. A single generic accuracy enhancement (10%, which translates to 8.3%) more than overwrites the difference.

Actually you probably would notice this - because what you notice, as Geko also points out, is the misses. And this is a 20% decrease in the number of misses over any given number of swings.

But in my case it would just be my imagination, as I'm only comparing my experiences with dark scrapper and fire blaster.

[Nebu]

Well, I only made it to 15 with my primary character (a scrapper) but found a great role in groups.  I would do my best to kill anything that got close to the controller and if the group lacked a controller, I'd do my best to keep mobs off the blasters.  This could be done using my stun kick (MA scrapper) or simply by killing them on the way in.

I realize that this is trite and common sense, but scrappers do enough damage to be effective taunters and can often intercept mobs quite well on their way to the blasters.  You guys are seasoned gaming vets and probably know this already, but I thought I'd toss this out there anyway.

[Sable Blaze]

5% doesn't seem like all that much, but an extra 1 hit in 20 isn't to be sniffed at. Enhancements can cover this and then some, but you're going to be finding yourself fighting reds/purples sooner or later and then you'll need every bit of help you can find.

Most people get alarmed at random number generator streakiness. EQ was infamous for this. Their RNG was random (as much as it's possible to be) over very large (VERY large...) sample sizes. Problem was that with day to day fighting, it was very streaky. SOEs predilection to steath nerf didn't help matters, hence the anguished cries of "my jboots are slower!" every patch day (like I did one day when I forgot to turn run on...).

All I can say in the final analysis is that this thread has me playing my scrapper again. It is a fun class, especially for when no one is on in my supergroup.

[HaemishM]

I'll give you my own anecdotal evidence as a scrapper from yesterday. No one in the guild was on, and I had a Faultline mission, so I went there and got a pickup group. The group had I think 2 defenders (one of which was not a healer-focused build), 2 controllers, me the only melee and the rest were blasters of one type or another. In Faultline, there are usually one or two bosses in every clump of mobs. I found it effective as the scrapper to wait until one of the controllers started dropping AOE's, then jump in and go right for the strongest boss. I could usually hold aggro on this guy until he was dead, and one of the healers was dedicated to healing me. I only died once from a fight, when we tried a big group that was about 2 levels above our highest. I couldn't hit shit in that fight. The other deaths were from me super-jumping into clumps that rooted than shot the fuck out of me. There were very few deaths otherwise. I think one blaster ended up getting one-shotted by a second boss, but other than that, we were fine. Once the boss was down, I'd just run around trying to take down whatever was close.

Scrappers can do decently at keeping the bosses from squashing the fragile blasters and other types, as well as damaging them enough to take them down. My scrapper is about 50-50 damage dealing/damage avoidance (martial arts/super reflexes).

[ClydeJr]

I found it effective as the scrapper to wait until one of the controllers started dropping AOE's, then jump in and go right for the strongest boss.

That's how I play my tanker when I'm grouped. I'll jump in and keep the boss busy and hopefully the other melees are either assisting me or keep other bosses busy. I honestly expect the ranged heros to be able to handle the minions themselves. I don't want to worry about them because I'm worried about the boss. I can take the ugly hairy crap that the bosses do. They can't.

I'm pretty happy with my fire/ice tanker. Its the most offensive primary set with an average damaging secondary set. I still think its amazing when I finish a long ass fight and see that while I've been out of endurance for over a minute, I'm still at over 3/4 of my health.

[Sky]

   Try to solo with a Blaster and you can, but it takes some real finesse and even luck to keep the mobs off you and survive.

This is why every blaster needs to take Fly. Cosmic is (still) only level 16, but has no problem soloing in hazard zones, usually cherry-picking bosses out of groups. I don't think I died during levels 12-15 in boomtown, solo.

I /did/ die 3 times with Aslan/DD, because blasters pretty well suck indoors imo (and purple con minions didn't help :P).

So maybe say Blasters excel above all others in soloing in outdoor zones, but are the worst indoor soloists.

[Sable Blaze]

I originally made my fire/axe tanker to basically take on bosses while everyone else dealt with the minions. This works fine...until your SG decided that red/purple minions and very purple bosses are the cat's pajamas.

I still enjoy boss-baiting, but, sadly, I need provoke these days to keep things managable until the controllers get a handle on the ravening purplish hordes.

Ahh, well, it's still all fun. Just not enough slots for all those nifty powers to be all you can be...