Nix's Review of MxO from E3

[schild]

Goddamn that's a long update. Truly, an experience worth some envy. Or not.

[stray]

Like I pointed out before, missions are a vital part of MxO. Bob further explained that NPC’s you rescue will most likely show up again in your lifetime. All of your missions get printed into your past and often times come back to remind you of past deeds.

Wow..Wasn't familiar with this. But what exactly is meant by "remind you of past deeds"?

I had thought (only by viewing some videos), that the combat seemed cool, console-like...Now it sounds as shitty as SWG. Doesn't look like they've made the same mistake with the game world though.

[TripleDES]

I'm not surprised about the combat. In pretty much every MMOs it's just queuing up stuff (with minor variations) anyway, so why even bother complaining?

[stray]

Why isn't there more focus on defense in RPG combat? IMO, the one thing that makes MMO (or RPG) combat kinda shitty is that defense is a passive skill..But that's bullshit. Real fights are won by prevention and interception, not by "outdamaging" your opponent. Strictly offensive moves should always be Critical.

I guess my ideal would be that players could be killed by being one-shotted, but not making it easy would be the "fun" part.
 
If they're going for Matrix-like combat (and Wo Ping in general), it's a lot of defense and a few critical blows (or sometimes just one). The only one who "spams attack" is Agent Smith, but that's because he's so driven to destroy, or that there's so many of "him" he doesn't really give a shit.

EDITED: First post kinda sounded like I wanted a twitch factor, but this one probably does too I guess.

[NiX]

Some NPC's may accompany you on later missions or even be giving you one. And it won't be coincidence. They will show up again because you did them a favor or saved them.

They didn't go in-depth, but it sounds like a very unique aspect of the game. Nothing beats something you can call your own personal storyline.

Also, one thing I totally forgot in my half-asleep state: Hubert (the writer) is actually working along side with the wachowski (sp?) brothers. Now, considering how matrix 2 and 3 went, this may or may not be good. It could also result in the option to give your character a sex change.

[Pug]

I guess my ideal would be that players could be killed by being one-shotted, but not making it easy would be the "fun" part.

How so? Fun as in fun to be randomly one-shotted or fun as in catching someone off guard and one-shotting them and how does that make combat any more fun?

Some NPC's may accompany you on later missions or even be giving you one. And it won't be coincidence. They will show up again because you did them a favor or saved them.

They didn't go in-depth, but it sounds like a very unique aspect of the game. Nothing beats something you can call your own personal storyline.

Nothing other than maybe having fun or finding a reason to play with the other players in a Massively Multi-Player Game.

It seems like they are working awful hard to replace the need to interact with other players. I don't want to befriend and hang out with NPCs. I want to play a Massively Multi-Player Game so that I can interact with other players.

Why can't Massively Multi-Player Games find new and better ways for players to interact? Why are so many MMOGs trying to find better ways to replace player interaction? It just seems to me that MMOGs should be concentrating on trying to find new and better ways for players to interact rather than improving AI.

It's only a matter of time before someone makes AI seem like a real life player, and when that happens the MMOG developers will have to find ways to prevent players from needing to interact with the player-like AI.

[NiX]

Did you read the entire article? At one of the parts where I talked to Travis I mention how he WANTS players to interact and adds that they're pushing to incorporate things to make this happen. They are far from pushing people away. I should of mentioned that these NPC's will show up for the group that did the mission. This isn't a solo only thing.

[stray]

How so? Fun as in fun to be randomly one-shotted or fun as in catching someone off guard and one-shotting them and how does that make combat any more fun?

I'm saying equal attention paid to defense and interception would make it more fun. I didn't say one-shotting is fun (be it victor or victim). I'm just kinda using it to illustrate my point. Whether there's one-shotting or not, defense should be just as much an active skill as any other. As it is though, most games are a bit one-sided.

Defense is easier to implement with twitch gaming, but how would one go about it in RPG combat? I don't know. Just thinking off the top of my head (and I apologize if this sounds dumb), I thought maybe that To-Hit and To-Miss should be thrown out, placed with 2 Life Pools -- HP and Defense. The first mortal, the other not. But the Defense pool would constantly fluctuate.

I guess in order to prevent random one-shotting from happening, you could never open up with strictly critical attacks (or maybe you could, but in most situations it'd be a waste..but I'll get to that).

So a player has 2 pools: "Health" and "Perception" (or "Defense"), and you can't attack a opponent's HP until you break down his Perception. The best and quickest way to attack HP would be through some "fatality" or kill-shot. But it wouldn't be as easy as just breaking down the Perception pool and going in for the kill, as the Perception pool could also be buffed by various defensive moves during the duration of the fight too.

The majority of offensive moves would damage Perception

Defensive moves would buff Perception

Interceptive shots (those that are partially offensive and defensive at the same time) would be the most damaging to an opponent's Perception, but they'd also buff the Perception pool on your end. These would be rare, and can only be used as counter-attacks. There would be High Reward with them, but they'd also be far less timer-efficient than the Defensive moves. They can also counter Criticals. The only difference then would that they only prevent a Critical hit (no damage done, no benefit to one's own Defense pool).

After successfully breaking down the first pool, only then would be the right time to use a Critical shot. A player could still attempt to flee if he knows his Defense pool is down, so it doesn't mean he's neccessarily dead.

I said earlier it'd be a waste to open up with a Critical (at least 1v1) because it'd be on a long timer (of course)...It could knock down the first pool, but there'd be nothing left worth using on the HP pool. The importance of the critical shot is that it'd be the fastest way to kill the opponent before his important defensive skills reset. If it happens to be countered, it's likely both fighters would be in the HP pools then, and desperation would ensue.

Since everything was on a timer (as usual), it'd come down to who used the most efficient moves at the right times. The one who didn't would be left wide open with nothing left to grab for and would either die a very cinematic death or get lucky by escape.

Not perfect, but I think it'd make it more interesting. People would be spamming block as much as attack, and waiting for that right time to use counter-moves (which is all I'm asking for really..I don't care how it's done). Plus, this could be one way to introduce fatalities and kill-shots.

So...There's no To-Hit, or To-Miss...Just Action and Counter-Action, coupled with Debuffing and Buffing, until the options are wasted.

Like I said though..I don't know. I haven't put much though into it, so maybe this is only a good enough system for dueling.

[HaemishM]

Why can't Massively Multi-Player Games find new and better ways for players to interact? Why are so many MMOGs trying to find better ways to replace player interaction? It just seems to me that MMOGs should be concentrating on trying to find new and better ways for players to interact rather than improving AI.

Players will interact with each other whether the agme supports it, encourages it or not. I always go back to this, but Quake clans formed and have stayed together for years without one iota of community-building in the game engine. I think that's one of the realizations most of the MMOG devs need to come to. Players will group regardless of whether you want them to or not. The thing the devs have to do is not worry about how to encourage that, but worry about how to build on those bonds that will form regardless.

You do this with a chat system that is easy to use, isn't broke as fuck, and is flexible. Allowing things like the creation of custom chat channels is one way. Allowing guild leaders to administer their guild almost entirely online, with easily visible rosters, administration commands, etc. Don't make a guild leader go outside the game to keep his guild together.

Pushing players together is not the problem. Keeping them together is the problem.

As for MxO's combat, sounds very /meh. Either you speed combat up (sort of twitchy) or slow it down and make it last longer. In CoH, you have the sped up version, and every player feels like they are contributing to the fight, as opposed to spectating. If you slow the combat down, make it take a few minutes and allow some good defensive counters to offensive moves, then you'll have a much more strategic attack. I think MMOG combat has fallen too far in the middle. Not fast enough to be involving, and not slow enough to require much strategic or tactical thought.

[Pug]

Did you read the entire article? At one of the parts where I talked to Travis I mention how he WANTS players to interact and adds that they're pushing to incorporate things to make this happen. They are far from pushing people away. I should of mentioned that these NPC's will show up for the group that did the mission. This isn't a solo only thing.

I'm not going to lie to you. I couldn't get past the self deprecating humor to find out what you thought about the game. I started feeling bad for you and didn't want to find out how far you'd go. I skimmed a bit, found something that caught my attention and commented on it. My comments weren't meant to be a personal attack or even reflect on you rather than express my disapproval over the amount of effort multi-player game developers are putting into AI.

I agree, Ham, that multi-player games don't have to force players to play with eachother. Players will play with eachother and form bonds so long as the game doesn't interfere. The problem I see with  befriending AI is that it interfers with player relationships. Players will need to spend time developing a relationship with a NPC when they could be spending time interacting with other players.

Let's fall back to Quake. Everyone who played Quake in multi-player mode intereacted exclusively with the other players. The whole point of the game and its mods were to befriend and work with other players as a team in order to beat another team of players. If a NPC had spawned from time to time wanting players to develop a relationship with it then it would just  be a distraction from the existing player interaction. "Sorry guys, NPC00034 wants me to buy it dinner and take it to a movie. I'll catch you guys next weekend."

Without trying to get too deep, I just feel that they would be better off trying to find ways for players to fill the role of the NPC and further promote player interaction rather than having players actually befriend an NPC. Players play together, rely on one another, get to know one another, return favors and eventually become friends and form player associations in games where players are allowed to interact. I don't think that players either need or want to replace player interaction with AI. Just keep the game simple and let players play with one another.Much like Quake; as long as it's fun to play with other players then the community will form around the game without any coaxing.

I'm a bit tired... I hope my explanation didn't make my intentions any more unclear.

[HaemishM]

I get what you are saying, but I think there needs to be work on both sides. Because it isn't always going to be convenient or even fun to play with other players, especially when those other players turn out to be complete cockmunchers. And you know they will.

Not to mention that unless all combat is PVP, you still have to have NPC's to kill. In the interests of not making PVE as boring as fuck, like Shadowbane's PVE, you have to work on NPC AI.

But I see what you are saying.

[Velorath]

As for MxO's combat, sounds very /meh. Either you speed combat up (sort of twitchy) or slow it down and make it last longer. In CoH, you have the sped up version, and every player feels like they are contributing to the fight, as opposed to spectating. If you slow the combat down, make it take a few minutes and allow some good defensive counters to offensive moves, then you'll have a much more strategic attack. I think MMOG combat has fallen too far in the middle. Not fast enough to be involving, and not slow enough to require much strategic or tactical thought.

I think MxO more so than any previous MMO could actually benefit from having two combat systems if they want to make the game fun and keep the feel of the movie.  They could use both slow and twitchy combat modes and switch back and forth depending on how they want each encounter to feel giving the game more diversity and kind of a cinematic feel.  Of course the major drawback would be balancing two different combat systems.

[Arnold]

How so? Fun as in fun to be randomly one-shotted or fun as in catching someone off guard and one-shotting them and how does that make combat any more fun?

I'm saying equal attention paid to defense and interception would make it more fun. I didn't say one-shotting is fun (be it victor or victim). I'm just kinda using it to illustrate my point. Whether there's one-shotting or not, defense should be just as much an active skill as any other. As it is though, most games are a bit one-sided.

This is what made UO pvp popular for a long time.  Healing was king, and with the meditation skill, you could almost heal indefinitely with magery.  The skill in it was breaking through that awesome defense.

[Arnold]

I think MxO more so than any previous MMO could actually benefit from having two combat systems if they want to make the game fun and keep the feel of the movie.  They could use both slow and twitchy combat modes and switch back and forth depending on how they want each encounter to feel giving the game more diversity and kind of a cinematic feel.  Of course the major drawback would be balancing two different combat systems.

Or give the players the power to make combat go into slow motion at critical points in time, like when bullets are about to kill them.  They could have some kind of "mana" pool that allowed them to use that power only so often.

[stray]

Not to mention that unless all combat is PVP, you still have to have NPC's to kill. In the interests of not making PVE as boring as fuck, like Shadowbane's PVE, you have to work on NPC AI.

As bare-bones as Shadowbane was, it also had the most interesting social aspect of any MMO I've played. Players had nothing but each other (I guess that's a good and bad thing?). I think only an open-PvP game, with zero or little content, can do what you're asking for, Pug. Encouraging (read: Forcing) social interaction except through competition or crisis will either bore or frustrate the shit out of people (SWG).

Not everyone plays to be social, anyways (at least not all the time). That's not the only reason to play MMO's, is it? It may be the important part, but it's still just half of it. There's a massive game world to explore, persistence, and other things that you won't find in single player games. That I can make an effect on it? I welcome it.

[stray]

This is what made UO pvp popular for a long time. Healing was king, and with the meditation skill, you could almost heal indefinitely with magery. The skill in it was breaking through that awesome defense.

Damn. Just another thing that makes me wish "I was there". I've always had Macs until recently, so I didn't get to play an MMO until SB (yes, I'm a noob).

[Nebu]

Damn. Just another thing that makes me wish "I was there". I've always had Macs until recently, so I didn't get to play an MMO until SB (yes, I'm a noob).

Considering the treadmills and timesinks produced to date, you may like to know that your "missing out" was a good thing.  One of the few reasons I even follow the mmog industry anymore is with the hope that someone will produce something new rather than derivative... a few titles are giving me some hope that there might still be something to look forward to in this genre.