Why I now hate every MMO.

[Xilren's Twin]

It's a discussion that's beeng ongoing for a long, long, long time in more than just EQ/ UO/ WOW terms and it hasn't worked out yet.  Saying 'do it right' is easy.  It hasn't been done yet, but many continue to try and make the same mistakes.  That is the reason for the cynicism.

NPC's acting more than vending machices is nice, but it just a sympton.

As previously mentioned, a large part of "doing it right" in my book is stop trying to make these massive focus worlds.  A massively designed game almost HAS to use static content in order to wring the best ratio of player use (which basically means subscriptions dollars). vs development cost.  Massive games are only about ROI, not immersion nor individual gameplay experience.  That's fine; massive games have their place and their appeal.  They look good, can play smooth and there's always people around to do stuff with..

...but at the same time, none of them are even close to the gaming experience many would like to see attempted: the true computerization of a pen and paper rpg session.  It's somewhat ironic that most of these massively multi-player computer games owe their genesis to those p&p roots, yet the graphical version of these games bear only a passing resemblance to them.  Yes, most of them have wizards, warriors, orcs and dragons; spells and swords and magic loot; quests, exotic lands, gods and demons;  but in terms of actually playing the things?  It's night and day. It's like playing an arcade game vs reading a book.  Both a fun, but very different.

P&P is all about a small group that has a unique shared adventure.  The mechanics are there to support and supplement the adventure.  And even though you could have 10 different groups play through the same "module", each experience could be wildly different depending on the DM and players involved and their creativity (or lack thereof).  While we starting to see SOME movement towards this in games that use instances and such, there's only so much variance a massive game can allow b/c each option has to be paid for to code.  The single notable attempt at the reverse, NWN, didn't take it far enough (I still consider NWN a successful step, even if its chock full of it's own limitations in the base game [real time combat anyone]).

It's like there are just two ends to this scale.  On the one end you have the massive, pretty and completely static games like WoW and EQ; and on the other you have the highly variable, small scale, text muds.

I just want something more in the middle.  I know I know, I;m asking for companies to spend more money for a niche of a niche.  Who wants to invest more money on a small scale focus game with higher dev costs like server divergence and broader gameplay options (like npc behaviour and true thief like skill options)?  It's riskier, has lower ROI numbers, and the first few will probably fail badly...

I still want to play such an animal though.  I hope D&D Online is a little CLOSER to the p&p experience, yet I also know from the ground up it can't be but a shadow of it's offline name.  I also hope Bioware's next NWN type game is another step towards the middle.  I also want a pony.

Xilren

[Shockeye]

You guys are all jumping down WUA's throat on this issue when all he is really asking for is aesthetics. He describes some random duder closing up a tavern and going somewhere, but he never says it affected him either way. It was just something he could stop and reflect on and feel more a part of a world. The banks don't have to close, and the shops don't have to close. And if they do, you could always let players wake people up or go to other stores. Also, the convo trees don't have to be harder for players, you can always put in quick ways to buy stuff from people, or people could just get it down to where they quickly hit the 2-3 responses they need and whala, they sold their shit. The localization issue is the only real problem I see brought up here.

What WAU is talking about here is the difference between a play with no props and one with cardboard cutouts haphazardly painted to look somewhat like a background. It doesn't change the core of the play, it's just to help people suspend their disbelief. Frankly, I agree.

He's not asking for aesthetics, though, because WOW has a lot of that stuff, and he feels it sucks.  (As Haemish pointed out) He's asking for a full-on virtual world with shops that close so you can't get at them during certain hours.  Adding-in inconvienance is all a 'world' does because that's what makes reality (i.e. a World) vs gameplay. 

Next he'll want to bake bread.

[WayAbvPar]

Bake bread to crush, you mean.

[Calantus]

I dunno about cutting out the min/maxing in a game. I've always though that the ability to craft a good template, either absolutely or to suit how you play is a skill worth rewarding in an MMOG. I just don't see the problem with min/maxing too, you don't sacrifice anything when you play with a build that is tweaked to the max, at least I don't.

[Paelos]

Bake bread to crush, you mean.

We call that stuffing.

[Azazel]

This could open up a whole new level of roleplaying...does your shiny do-gooder treat with the scurvy pirate at the docks or the questionable blokes in that dark alley? Does he stay true to his virtue and live with inconvinience? Does he look the other way as a squire sells the stuff for him? Lobby his guildmaster to place a night storage box in the paladin's bunkhouse?

Or click "Sell All".

As stated above, this has the same problem in a MMO as does Schild's oft-repeated wet dream of a twitch-based MMO. It's great if you have plenty of time to play in these games, and it's great if you live somewhere in the world where you play in the time of day where you can either go down that alleyway OR get to the shop before it closes and have a nice ping for the twitch-based stuff.

Kinda sucks when you're in a different part of the world, and don't get to see the world in daylight at all unless it's a weekend, and the shops are always closed, and your shitty pinbg means you might as well not bother playing. Do you want to play a MMOG where you can intereact with people from al over the world, or would you prefer to only be able to interact with people a couple of states away?

[Strazos]

I dunno about cutting out the min/maxing in a game. I've always though that the ability to craft a good template, either absolutely or to suit how you play is a skill worth rewarding in an MMOG. I just don't see the problem with min/maxing too, you don't sacrifice anything when you play with a build that is tweaked to the max, at least I don't.

If there is strong incentives to min/max and use a template, everyone will just use Google and turn into the same stupid character, which is stupid.

The only skill here is reading.

If you take min/maxing out, then all skill choices come down to player preference.

[Calantus]

If there is strong incentives to min/max and use a template, everyone will just use Google and turn into the same stupid character, which is stupid.

The only skill here is reading.

If you take min/maxing out, then all skill choices come down to player preference.

It really depends on how well the talents are made. For instance, right now I can tell you the absolute best PVP warrior spec (depending on what wep you have), but I couldn't tell you which of the many rogue or shaman specs to choose from.

[Strazos]

If there is strong incentives to min/max and use a template, everyone will just use Google and turn into the same stupid character, which is stupid.

The only skill here is reading.

If you take min/maxing out, then all skill choices come down to player preference.

It really depends on how well the talents are made. For instance, right now I can tell you the absolute best PVP warrior spec (depending on what wep you have), but I couldn't tell you which of the many rogue or shaman specs to choose from.

Ok, so in these cases, I end up seeing the same 2, MAYBE 3 templates? Bor-ring.

[squirrel]

I'm not going to redefine all the shit we already know or try to sound smart. Just casting my vote for game over world. Any GAME that can provide a context that seems like a living world has me there. But any 'virtual world' that makes me relive the fucking tedium of our day to day existance as a form of entertainment has utterly failed. I want to be a hero/god/scoundrel/thief/lover/warlord. I have ZERO FUCKING INTEREST in being a merchant who manages resources and keeps tabs on productivity in my 'world'. Not dissing those who want that - more power to ya, but i already manage a budget and a bunch of unproductive resources for a living, i don't want to do that in my MMOGs. (yes Raph, SWG is a clinical example.) Nor do i want to be soley dependent on people who find that fun.

That said, this game will suck. I do like NWN though, maybe i should reinstall. Nah, my Mage is almost 60.

EDIT: Oh and er, baking to crush doesn't mean you're a underveloped loser. At all. Or something.

[squirrel]

It really depends on how well the talents are made. For instance, right now I can tell you the absolute best PVP warrior spec (depending on what wep you have), but I couldn't tell you which of the many rogue or shaman specs to choose from.

Rogue - 31/8/12 for seal fate or 21/8/22 for Cold Blood and Preparation. there's others. these are the best.

Shaman - 0/30/21 or 23/7/21 seem popular but i have no idea.

Point being within 30 minutes of rolling my mage alt i knew the difference between the 31/20/0, 30/21/0, 18/0/33 and 21/0/30 builds. Variations are just that, variations. And you will look them up. Online or ingame. Because that's human nature. No game like WoW/DAoC/SB will resolve that, it's part of the core design.

[Calantus]

So... what's better? Being able to make choices that radically change the way your character plays to suit your style, being able to make choices that make little real difference, or no ability to make choices at all? You say that having a handful of top specs is boring as if any of the alternatives (beyond "make better trees" which nobody s arguing against) are any less boring. "So what's your spec?" "Who fucking cares they're all the same anyway".

Despite the popular builds I guarantee you that if someone plays like they have 21/0/30 (shaman) as any other spec is going to be hurting their abilities quite considerably. I would also say that the very best build for 1v1 and small group PVP (17/13/21) isn't even in the top 5 popular specs. That's what talents are for, to customize your character to suit the specific way you want to play it, and to give yourself an edge that is NOT based around time. Everybody is clamoring for less time-based distinction and talents are a great way for it. That player might have good gear but you have more skill and a better thought-out spec, maybe that's enough to overcome the item devide.

EDIT: Btw, I personally think game > world also. I'd just like to have the gameworld feel more alive while I'm playing in it.

[Sky]

Variations are just that, variations. And you will look them up. Online or ingame. Because that's human nature.

I disagree. My hunter only made it to 58, but I never looked up templates, I just went with what was most effective, studying the options available. I probably wasn't the fotm, but then, who cares?

[Wasted]

IF the game offered some sort of easy storage so selling or trashing werent the only ways to clear your inventory, and also offered some form of cueing orders or something so your character could go to the store and sell their items while offline then having limited shop hours wouldn't inconvenience me but add immersion.

If it was just added in a sloppy gesture to promote immersion then it would be an inconvenience that wouldn't aid my gaming experience.

I dont think something is immersive simply because it recreates the hassles of real life.  I think something is immersive if it gives the illusion of real life without the hassle.  Irritation reminds me more than anything that I am playing a game and breaks any immersion I try to sustain.  I'd rather a hassle free fun game than an immersive pain in the arse.

[Pococurante]

IF the game offered some sort of easy storage so selling or trashing werent the only ways to clear your inventory, and also offered some form of cueing orders or something so your character could go to the store and sell their items while offline then having limited shop hours wouldn't inconvenience me but add immersion.

Would be fun to have a master/apprenticeship mode where one has to log (offline) X number of hours to advance.  Then when I'm ready to logout I submit myself to the village master who I pledged.  There could even be a fun status report available to me when I logged back in to see "tasks I performed" and how much my hours were docked when I botched something.

But anyway no items created/trashed to advanced, only actually make things I intend to sell so no skill points earned, and the developer has precise control over advancement levels and can even mandate how many of what accrediation can be associated to what region.

[SomeKindOfMoron]

My thinking is that, in a virtual world, ideally, there's a role and place for every player and playstyle.  Fine-tuning and micromanaging numerical values in order to achieve an optimal output seems an odd fit for combat though, especially the up-close-and-personal sort.  Business or city management or something else along those lines would probably be a better outlet for that kind of play.

Would be fun to have a master/apprenticeship mode where one has to log (offline) X number of hours to advance.  Then when I'm ready to logout I submit myself to the village master who I pledged.  There could even be a fun status report available to me when I logged back in to see "tasks I performed" and how much my hours were docked when I botched something.

Yeah, there are some really interesting opportunities in allowing characters a sort of offline life.  There's all kind of tedious stuff that players will never want to do in-game that can be handled during offline hours.  Eating, resting, working a job, training skills.  Give the player some control over these things, and it could make for some interesting design.  Perhaps you tell your character how to eat, which helps determine how he develops, etc.

Another possibility is player characters as guards and peace keepers.  Have an AI-controlled version of your character patroling town while you're logged out.  This could really be of practical value in a game like Shadowbane, where I understand it was once common to see wake-up-and-your-city-has-been-destroyed sorts of situations.

[HaemishM]

The wake up and see your city destroyed situation happened because the AI guards were worthless. One person could train the entire city full of the highest ranked guards possible miles away from the city and keep them there for hours while his guild razed your city to the ground. The AI would have to be greatly improved from current AI. Also, wouldn't it suck to put your character on guard duty, then login to find him dead?

[stray]

Also, wouldn't it suck to put your character on guard duty, then login to find him dead?

With XP debt to boot. 

[Samwise]

Yeah, there are some really interesting opportunities in allowing characters a sort of offline life.  There's all kind of tedious stuff that players will never want to do in-game that can be handled during offline hours.  Eating, resting, working a job, training skills.

I guess WoW's "rest bonus" would be an example of "resting" while you're offline.

Another example of "offline life" would be Puzzle Pirates' employment system, where you can earn money and contribute to the economy even while logged off.

[Paelos]

Another offiline things was SWG's harvester mining, which was basically the lynchpin of the economy. I can honestly say I enjoyed mining a hell of a lot in that game. It felt great to find that untapped 900+ metal and just start dropping heavy harvesters out there for a week at a time. It was one of the few games I've ever seen that layered markets for goods. There were the miners, who would sell direct ores. There were retailers who would buy from the miners and run mineral depots for the crafters. There were the crafters who could shop from both places for their necessary goods. It was a beautiful thing.

Too bad the Sahara desert has more personality than most of those planets, and the combat made you sterile if you kept at it long enough.

[AOFanboi]

Then there's EVE's realtime (on/offline) skill training. Where basically all you need to do is log in and start training a new skill every now and then.

[Samwise]

The problem with SWG's mining is that you had to check your harvesters every day to see if the resources had shifted.  There was no rhyme or reason to it - resource intake wouldn't gradually fall off, and you couldn't move on to a new vein of it either.  So you had to just keep checking constantly.

[Paelos]

The problem with SWG's mining is that you had to check your harvesters every day to see if the resources had shifted.  There was no rhyme or reason to it - resource intake wouldn't gradually fall off, and you couldn't move on to a new vein of it either.  So you had to just keep checking constantly.

Yeah, they should have kept mining as a profession and given you talents that could approximately predict how long veins would last, and also give you better surveying equipment, like surveying planets for the available resources before you blow through credits on travel.

[Samwise]

I'll have to resist the temptation to talk about all the ideas I had for improving SWG mining.   

[Paelos]

I'll have to resist the temptation to talk about all the ideas I had for improving SWG mining.   

Go for it, this thread is going places.

[Pococurante]

j/k - I'm interested too.

[Rasix]

Yeah, they should have kept mining as a profession and given you talents that could approximately predict how long veins would last, and also give you better surveying equipment, like surveying planets for the available resources before you blow through credits on travel.

Or they could of like, implemented the damn survey bots early on in the way that's actually useful.  There's just so many things they could have done to make that game more interesting. I'm not sure they accomplished any of them

The problem I have with virtual worlds and the reason I keep stepping away form them after usually less than a month, is that they become virtual jobs.  In A Tale in the Desert, I had to log on, make straw and feed my camels or they would die.  I would have to log on at specific times to prune my vines and fertilize or my grape production would fall off for wine making.   Games that are time sensitive with certain tasks become annoying chores to play.  If a game has stuff that takes 24 hours to pull off with multiple timed interactions during that 24 hour period, it better have some damn automation so I don't have to try and beat traffic home before my window to feed my goats is up.  Any game that if I go on vacaction and my world may end, ends up being more trouble than it's worth.


Edit: I typo, you typo, we all typo.

[Soukyan]

In A Tale in the Desert, I had to log on, make straw and feel my camels or they would die.

My camels like to be touched every now and then, too. Makes them feel special and gives them a reason to live. ;)

But seriously, I agree on the time sensitive games. If I have to schedule other aspects of my life around it, it is no longer a "leisure" time activity.

[Paelos]

Yeah, I quit SWG when I realized I was only logging on to check my harvesters. That was the end of that.

[Rasix]

Yeah, I quit SWG when I realized I was only logging on to check my harvesters. That was the end of that.

I remember checking them in the morning (often being late to work/class because of it) to make sure the resources hadn't shifted or to keep them in power/cash.  Then I'd check in the evening and right before bed.  I figure I did 90 mins to 3 hours of resource work during the time I was a useless droid engineer. 

GAH.  This was all pre-vehicle/mount too.  I'm sure it was sufficiently less annoying otherwise. But then you'd still have to wait for certain shuttle between planets and places that were a pain in the ass to get to.

[Samwise]

One of my other ideas for SWG mining was to introduce the concept of "refining" resources.  Rather than waiting around for months or years hoping for a spawn of 1000 CD copper to pop up, it seems like you ought to be able to take a whole lot of lower quality copper and "refine" it to get the good stuff (the tradeoff, obviously, being that you'd need a lot more lower grade copper, so it'd still be worthwhile to look for the good raw stuff, just not as vital).  Another possibility would be to "craft" alloys by chucking two different minerals into the refinery; the new alloy would have whatever the closest common ancestor "type" of its two parents was, so you could combine iron and copper to get a generic metal with the best qualities of each.  

The benefits would be twofold: first, you'd add a bit more depth to the mining "game", and second, you'd decrease reliance on those special uber-rare minerals that the veteran crafters had vast stockpiles of.