Spec Talk

[Ironwood]

You could be right there.


Hmmm.

[Rasix]

What rogue specs are people running around with now?  Rogue's 51 and I'm just not really sure where to take him. 

Ambush/backstab looks seggsy but it just seems like it's not very practical to try to rely on in hectic group pvp.  A 21/8/22 seems like it would be somewhat flexible at least, but I'm not sure I want to rely on getting behind someone all of the time to get off those huge backstabs (lag, people don't stand still generally, etc). 

I've seen dagger crit builds, but those just seem to be backstab oriented also but without any of the subtlety perks.

I like flexibility, but I like big damage and I think in some situations ambushing might be somewhat vital.  I love cold blood, but I'm wondering if I could do without it.  Preparation seems nice too, but without using it for 2 cold bloods (not sure if it's worth it just to double up on the sprint/vanish/tea), I don't get the point. 

So, I guess I'm just curious what your lvl 60 builds are and how you like them.  I'm trying to avoid paying 100g in respecs :)

Edit: I like Hat's build he posted a while ago, but I'm just not sold on the improved KS.  Anyone done good things with hemmorage?

[MrHat]

What rogue specs are people running around with now?  Rogue's 51 and I'm just not really sure where to take him. 

Ambush/backstab looks seggsy but it just seems like it's not very practical to try to rely on in hectic group pvp.  A 21/8/22 seems like it would be somewhat flexible at least, but I'm not sure I want to rely on getting behind someone all of the time to get off those huge backstabs (lag, people don't stand still generally, etc). 

I've seen dagger crit builds, but those just seem to be backstab oriented also but without any of the subtlety perks.

I like flexibility, but I like big damage and I think in some situations ambushing might be somewhat vital.  I love cold blood, but I'm wondering if I could do without it.  Preparation seems nice too, but without using it for 2 cold bloods (not sure if it's worth it just to double up on the sprint/vanish/tea), I don't get the point. 

So, I guess I'm just curious what your lvl 60 builds are and how you like them.  I'm trying to avoid paying 100g in respecs :)

Edit: I like Hat's build he posted a while ago, but I'm just not sold on the improved KS.  Anyone done good things with hemmorage?

I hate hemmo.

I'm currently using 21/8/22.  22 is for imp. ambush, imp cheapshot (1), and prep.  I also have MoD (found it to be more useful in hectic pvp than Camo) and imp sap (would give this up if I was going pure pvp, but for pve it's very useful).  I've actually been toying with the idea of dropping imp. ambush (3 points, use CB-ambush instead) and instead putting them to tap out initiative and quick stealth.  In hectic large scale pvp, I generally play the waiting game behind enemy lines, wait for a mage to step back from nuking, wait for a priest's shield to go down, or I play counter-rogue, ie, waiting for those rogues who are preying on my people.

It's important for me to have timers up if I want to get in and get out, and this is what I use prep for mostly, 10 mins in largescale pvp goes by quickly.  Stealth, sprint, CB ambush/backstab a mage and generally they're dead, same for a priest, then continue yer sprint out of the enemy lines.

If you arent sold on backstab, a very nice build that I used a while back and loved was 21/2/28.  This gave me extra points to throw around in useful skills, you can get 5 MoD 5 Camo 5 initiative, or throw 5 points into elusiveness to get yer timers up quicker.  Plus you still get prep and can now max out imp. cs which is great.

Edit: I really liked seal fate when I had it, but since I'm still running the occasional raid/5 man group, I can't give up imp sap for a 30/8/13 build.  45g/respecs make me cry.

[Jobu]

Also 21/8/22 here. I think the combination of Preparation and Cold Blood is the most useful in PvP of any sort. Lining up for backstabs isn't *that* hard. Just run in circles around them and spam the backstab key. It'll hit. Crit ambushes on cloth wearers, followed immediately with a crit backstab = 1/2 - 1/3 health.

The only talent I kind of miss is Ghostly Strike. That was handy to buy a few extra seconds of survivability in a close fight against another meleer. And I don't think improved sap is useless in PvP. Takes out their healer for the first 10 seconds of a fight, while you wait behind them to unload when the sap breaks.

[MrHat]

Also 21/8/22 here. I think the combination of Preparation and Cold Blood is the most useful in PvP of any sort. Lining up for backstabs isn't *that* hard. Just run in circles around them and spam the backstab key. It'll hit. Crit ambushes on cloth wearers, followed immediately with a crit backstab = 1/2 - 1/3 health.

The only talent I kind of miss is Ghostly Strike. That was handy to buy a few extra seconds of survivability in a close fight against another meleer. And I don't think improved sap is useless in PvP. Takes out their healer for the first 10 seconds of a fight, while you wait behind them to unload when the sap breaks.

Imp. Sap is not useless at in PvP.  It's nice to have, but I don't deem it neccessary (like MoD, imp backstab and CB).

[Threash]

I use a 21/2/28 build and im extremely happy with it.  Initiative lets me get off a 5 point cold blood evicerate before the target can move 75% of the time.  Cheap shot --> hemo --> gouge and they are at 5 points without ever moving a muscle.  I like that i can concentrate my gear choices on stamina since my damage comes mostly from finishers, or sinister strike that are either standard or based mostly on weapon damage.

[Morfiend]

I respecced a bunch of times (yeah it cost), and I tried all the major specs, and ended up going back to combat build, but not any of the more popular builds.

Right now I am 21/21/9 wielding Dal'Rends set of swords. I have 21 in assassination for Cold Blood (A must for almost all rogues) 21 in combat to get Reposte and Duel Wield Specialization, then 9 in Sub for 5 Camo and 4 in MoD.

Basically with no MoD you are open to all kinds of rogue attacks, it sucks that its a must have, but I used to play with out it, and now I laugh at other rogues who dont have it. Camo is just a personal preference, as I spend so much time in stealth, I have to move fast. Also, if you combine 5 Camo with the Minor speed enchant on your boots, you will move at around 95% normal movement speed. And thats a thing of beauty.

With the comming of the next patch, we will probably see a lot less combat rogues, and many more fotm assassin rogues, pumping attack power instead of crit chance, and hitting ambush for around 2.2k damage. Combine that with a Assassin/Sub build, and with preperation, you could get off 3 of those ambushes in one fight.

[Rasix]

Just got the shanker(6th try, "last one of the night"), so I'm ready for my respec.   I've also managed to obtain all of the materials for Heartseeker, which will be nice for raids and a decent offhander to boot.  There's a Krol in the AH currently but the starting bid is 500 and I've probably only got 550 gold total. 

Anyhow, still having problems picking out my spec (I'm terminally indecisive), but I'm sure it's going to be a backstab build for pve/pvp usefulness.  Combat's kinda tempting but it's not stealthy enough for me and ignoring backstab in it's current state seems like a mistake.  Plus, to me the pinacle skill in combat seems to be AR which you need to go very deep into the tree to get.


Prep/CB with Improved Sap

Subtlety Mastery
Master of Deception   Rank 5
Opportunity   Rank 5
Initiative   Rank 5
Improved Ambush   Rank 3
Improved Sap   Rank 3
Preparation   Rank 1
Subtlety Total:   22

Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge   Rank 3
Improved Sinister Strike   Rank 2
Improved Backstab   Rank 3
Combat Total:   8

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate   Rank 3
Malice   Rank 5
Ruthlessness   Rank 3
Murder   Rank 2
Relentless Strikes   Rank 1
Improved Expose Armor   Rank 1
Lethality   Rank 5
Cold Blood   Rank 1
Assassination Total:   21

Good combo point generation initially.  No point in improved CS for stunlocking.

Prep/CB sans improved SAP

Subtlety Mastery
Master of Deception   Rank 5
Opportunity   Rank 5
Initiative   Rank 5
Improved Ambush   Rank 3
Improved Rupture   Rank 2
Preparation   Rank 1
Improved Cheap Shot   Rank 1
Subtlety Total:   22

Improved rupture for tank fights.  Improved CS point for stunlock combos.  No improved SAP which I've found to be a really invaluable tool for me in PVE when dealing with humanoid mobs.   I can see limited use in PVP just because sapping is a giant red flag for "ROGUE HERE" and it has a hefty energy req.  I can see the uses in group pvp as knocking someone out for 10 secs can be very valuable.

The problem with the improved CS version is that I'm sacrificing a tool that I currently find very useful for theorycraft that I've yet to test.  With the new trinkets, stucklock isn't quite the death sentence and even then, timing, lag and/or misses can turn a theory win into just a normal fight.   If someone has some more extensive field experience with the improved CS build after the introduction of the trinkets, let me know.

I've also considered the SF build.  I'm just not sure I can drop preparation with how amazing I've found it to be in practice.  But I do realize this is the optimal build for PVE sustained damage (I've heard some combat rogues come close). 

FYI, what I'd use for a SF build:

Subtlety Mastery
Master of Deception   Rank 5
Opportunity   Rank 5
Improved Ambush   Rank 3
Subtlety Total:   13

Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge   Rank 3
Improved Sinister Strike   Rank 2
Improved Backstab   Rank 3
Combat Total:   8

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate   Rank 3
Malice   Rank 5
Ruthlessness   Rank 3
Murder   Rank 2
Relentless Strikes   Rank 1
Lethality   Rank 5
Improved Instant Poison   Rank 5
Cold Blood   Rank 1
Seal Fate   Rank 5
Assassination Total:   30

[MrHat]

Solid builds all around Rasix, but from personal experience, I'd drop the 5/5 Initiative for 4/5, and put that last point into Imp. CS.  Even one point makes a stun lock possible (for wtfpwning in duels), and you will find that ambush/cs will be used 50/50.  Having an extra 10 or so energy around will let you throw a blind out or w/e.

The other possible one you might consider if you get a krol is 21/2/28.  This gives you lots of goodies in Subtlety.

[Rasix]

I did respec finally to the first build I listed.  Overall, it's solid, but I don't find myself using improved sap that much, so perhaps later on I'll drop it for that point back in Initiative and perhaps 2 points in camo. 

Funny enough, I really suck at PVP.  Well, I suck with the rogue at least early on. Perhaps it's just being horde, but the second you're uncovered in any largish skirmish, you're dead.  Usually within a second I've got 2 moonfires, corruption, 2 priest dots, and a warrior trying to do uncomfortable things to me.  Perhaps if I'm lucky it's only 2 priest dots.  I've gotten a bit better about noticing who has backup and not straying to close to the crowd unless it's a garunteed gank'n'run (ambush/bs/vanish/sprint).

It is fun, however picking your fights.  Just for kicks, I singled out this one hunter who always liked to stay in the back of the lines and killed him everytime I had a chance. I used ambush/bs and then tea to do a quick OMGWTFPWN combo on him and the guy just could never react in time to figure out what the hell was tearing him up,  and since he was in the back of the lines he rarely got a heal.  In the same day I think I killed the guy 10 times spread evenly between TM and XR.   Still, I'm bad.  I forget to evis, I forgot yesterday that gouge had to be from the front, I forget when my poison timers run out, and am just having a hard time finding my place in large combat (pve server = low gankage).   My stunlock could use some work, but with the new trinkets it's unreliable anyhow. 

What's funny (or sad) is that on my first guild raid with the rogue (hold everything a priest needs onyxia key!) I outdamaged everyone on the raid, including two other rogues. Their excuses: "I have a low aggro build!"(mainhanding a 1.6 spd sword), "I was skinning" (you weren't while we were fighting and use a fucking weapon switch macro, you have a goddamn Krol).  It's bad to think that a lot of the rogues in my guild just aren't using the right equipment, the right techniques, and aren't as effective as someone playing the maiden run of their crappily equipped alt (well, main once the guild allows it).

[MrHat]

I did respec finally to the first build I listed.  Overall, it's solid, but I don't find myself using improved sap that much, so perhaps later on I'll drop it for that point back in Initiative and perhaps 2 points in camo. 

Funny enough, I really suck at PVP.  Well, I suck with the rogue at least early on. Perhaps it's just being horde, but the second you're uncovered in any largish skirmish, you're dead.  Usually within a second I've got 2 moonfires, corruption, 2 priest dots, and a warrior trying to do uncomfortable things to me.  Perhaps if I'm lucky it's only 2 priest dots.  I've gotten a bit better about noticing who has backup and not straying to close to the crowd unless it's a garunteed gank'n'run (ambush/bs/vanish/sprint).

It is fun, however picking your fights.  Just for kicks, I singled out this one hunter who always liked to stay in the back of the lines and killed him everytime I had a chance. I used ambush/bs and then tea to do a quick OMGWTFPWN combo on him and the guy just could never react in time to figure out what the hell was tearing him up,  and since he was in the back of the lines he rarely got a heal.  In the same day I think I killed the guy 10 times spread evenly between TM and XR.   Still, I'm bad.  I forget to evis, I forgot yesterday that gouge had to be from the front, I forget when my poison timers run out, and am just having a hard time finding my place in large combat (pve server = low gankage).   My stunlock could use some work, but with the new trinkets it's unreliable anyhow. 

What's funny (or sad) is that on my first guild raid with the rogue (hold everything a priest needs onyxia key!) I outdamaged everyone on the raid, including two other rogues. Their excuses: "I have a low aggro build!"(mainhanding a 1.6 spd sword), "I was skinning" (you weren't while we were fighting and use a fucking weapon switch macro, you have a goddamn Krol).  It's bad to think that a lot of the rogues in my guild just aren't using the right equipment, the right techniques, and aren't as effective as someone playing the maiden run of their crappily equipped alt (well, main once the guild allows it).

There are three places for a rogue in large scale combat.  1: Standing behind/near enemy lines trying to pick off people who run back to heal and don't have mana or priest shield up.  2: Standing near your front lines/off to the side of your main battle group searching for rogues trying to do no1.  3: Recon, don't attack, but just let people know where the main groups are using /yell or whatever, or coordinating attacks when your main group rushes out, stun/blind a few guys so that the rest scatter (this will usually get you killed).

For ganking Rasix, try doing sprint/ambush/bs/tea/bs/vanish.  This will kill anyone but a warrior/paladin or a priest with his shield up.  It is usually a suicide, so try and wait for a target that has a high rank and doesn't look like he has been battling for a while (max. cps).  By the time you finish, sprint should still have 5-7s left and will effect yer vanish (mainly used to break the inevitable snare).  In large scale battle, I usually find that I didn't even 5pt evis anymore, didn't let myself have more than 2-3 combo points, just spam ss/evis until it looks like you are going to kill him, or he's going to get away, then drop a KS/Rupture depending on the situation.  I ALWAYS use rupture on rogues near my front lines because they will vanish asap, and this will make sure they die.

I stopped playing because I didn't like the roll of my rogue in the battle that was out there, didn't have time/ambition to play like the catass I am to level up another char post 48 (greens are friends, not food).  And GW is damn fun.  Between GW/CS:S/Lumines, I'm having a damn fun time with games I can pick up for 15 mins, and stop at ANY time without feeling too bad (no guilt for abandoning a group, or finally getting a good group for doing X then something RL comes up).

[squirrel]

Hey Rasix - although my rogue is only 47 atm, i am also going 21/8/22. Personally i'm dropping imp sap for 1 in Cheap Shot and a couple other points (undecided, possible hemo and ghostly strike, good for pve, or rupture for those warrior fights). YMMV but the high level rogues in my guild have pretty much ditched imp sap, although it's still very useful in instances.

[Threash]

I switched from my 21/2/28 stun lock build to a 21/8/22 dagger build because my cheap shot-->hemo--->gouge---> 5pt cb evicerate while pretty devastating was just to damn slow to get off with any consistensy in large scale fights, now i just ambush/bs. I'm alot weaker in 1v1 fights, but i hardly ever get those anymore.

[Rasix]

I'm rarely cheapshotting anymore just because that sound (I wish they'd get rid of it, it's like ROGUE ALERT) combined with the amount of time that you have to kill and get the hell out makes it somewhat less viable.  It's great for runners, other rogues, and  the charging goon warrior that thinks he's going to get off his fear. 

[Morfiend]

I open just about every fight with cheap shot. Being a combat rogue, I like to semi stunlock, and let my assassin friend just sit behind the stunned target and backstab away.

I have found that in large scale pvp, cheapshot is really good. People panic when they get stunned in the middle of battle. Its also great for stopping mounted people so your group can kill them.

[sidereal]

Do rogues have any workarounds to deal with Fearie Fire or is that pretty much a death sentence?  Is it likely you'd be able to get away after a quick ambush without being able to vanish?

[MrHat]

Do rogues have any workarounds to deal with Fearie Fire or is that pretty much a death sentence?  Is it likely you'd be able to get away after a quick ambush without being able to vanish?

Sprint.

+ Lag.

[schild]

Do rogues have any workarounds to deal with Fearie Fire or is that pretty much a death sentence?  Is it likely you'd be able to get away after a quick ambush without being able to vanish?

Sprint.

+ Lag.

Lag is definately overpowered.

[Lantien]

This has nothing to do with a build, but I'd like to say this weekend, I ran into a horde rogue, who did a pretty good job of messing me up the second time we tangled.  Granted, there were a bunch of other folks on me, but he hurt me real bad.  Of course, later with a bunch of folks I returned the favor, so...

Rasix: how's that rogue geared out?  He seemed to do just peachy.  Trust me, I could name a horde rogue or two that's much worse. I think I scored 10 kills alone on one rogue who was especially inept that night.

[Rasix]

Rasix: how's that rogue geared out?  He seemed to do just peachy.  Trust me, I could name a horde rogue or two that's much worse. I think I scored 10 kills alone on one rogue who was especially inept that night.

He's OK.  Nothing really good though beyond my weapons which are a Barman Shanker/Heartseeker with an Assassination Blade for when I can't backstab.   I think my rings, my necklace,  my shoulders, and my trinkets are still green items and my boots are old stuff from Mauradon.  Gloves, pants, helm, bracers, and belt are all pretty solid if only one is a set piece (belt).  He's finally starting to get the default raid invites instead of the shaman, so he's likely to get better.  (It was nearly jaw dropping to hear them pick the rogue when I gave them a choice. )

I'm getting better if I'm still kinda bad.  Timing that gouge is a big issue still.  Still, one night when we were hopelessly outmanned in Crossroads I managed to stay alive for longer than my poison timers while picking people off in crowds.   Yesterday I had fun when I encountered what I consider a "Children's Crusade" when a bunch of folks in their late forties/early fifties attemps their first pvp type raid.   They never managed to kill me and I was stafe stabbing with sprint at one point and killed 4-5 at a pass.  Most weren't HKs, but it's their choice to invade our lands. 

[Lantien]

He's OK.  Nothing really good though beyond my weapons which are a Barman Shanker/Heartseeker with an Assassination Blade for when I can't backstab.   I think my rings, my necklace,  my shoulders, and my trinkets are still green items and my boots are old stuff from Mauradon.  Gloves, pants, helm, bracers, and belt are all pretty solid if only one is a set piece (belt).  He's finally starting to get the default raid invites instead of the shaman, so he's likely to get better.  (It was nearly jaw dropping to hear them pick the rogue when I gave them a choice. )

I'm getting better if I'm still kinda bad.  Timing that gouge is a big issue still.  Still, one night when we were hopelessly outmanned in Crossroads I managed to stay alive for longer than my poison timers while picking people off in crowds.   Yesterday I had fun when I encountered what I consider a "Children's Crusade" when a bunch of folks in their late forties/early fifties attemps their first pvp type raid.   They never managed to kill me and I was stafe stabbing with sprint at one point and killed 4-5 at a pass.  Most weren't HKs, but it's their choice to invade our lands.

As for instances, you'd be surprised. Looking at past threads, you've alluded to getting Improved Sap. In any sort of raid situation where Crowd Control is of a huge premium (5 man Scholomance, Stratholme), Improved Sap is huge. Talking over with other players like Hellfire, he puts a rogue down as 3rd most important person to have in a group, due to improved sap (he's crazy, but what can you do). On the alliance side, the conversation seems to be that rogues as a whole are having problems getting groups, but converting into an improved sap build tends to improve their chances of getting in quite a bit, especially in a group with a savvy raid leader.

I have a rogue alt, but I can't get into it to well. Too much warrior playing has made me as subtle as a car wreck. I think the key is getting into position and picking your spots, which can be maddening at times. The other thing to do is to use stuns to pick off Plate classes who like to rush the line, cause havok, and then run away (me).

The first time I saw you, my eyes got big and I think I made a straight bee-line, swinging away. Unfortunately, I think there were 2, 3 other people there too, and you got moving pretty fast.

The second time, I saw you.. or rather, I heard the sound of a cheapshot/stun as I was starting to run away from 2, 3 horde. I started cursed, realizing I just gave you a free kill.  Third time, you picked a rough spot to take down someone, and you had me and a few other guys on you.  Life of a rogue, I suppose.

As for grey mobs, I consider it my duty to intimidate them off the battlefield. The lack of an honor kill is technically a waste of my time. However, the fact they can stun, heal, or do other things to influence a battle, especially if people are running away, make them useful 2-3 shotted targets. If someone wants to be a lowbie and attempt to gain some honor kills and make a difference, I like to make a special point at times to remind them that it's not. Honestly, if you're not level 50 (really level 55), you're not going to make a difference offensively in PVP. You'll be a bigger target when you hit the higher levels, but you'll also find yourself with enough talent points and HP to be able to be a threat on the field.

[sidereal]

On the alliance side, the conversation seems to be that rogues as a whole are having problems getting groups, but converting into an improved sap build tends to improve their chances of getting in quite a bit, especially in a group with a savvy raid leader.

Speaking as a guy with druid/priest mains, I have a huge problem with rogues in deadly environments.  My experience has been that they often show absolutely no caution with their paper armor, get slaughtered like lambs, and then bitch at the healer because I didn't spam-full-heal them the entire fight.  Part of this is because the rogue class holds a moth/flame lure for jackasses, part of it because people don't learn to adjust their strategy in different environments.  The one-shot pelvic grinding badassness works great in Stranglethorn, not so much elsewhere.  If I see a pickup group with 2 rogues in it, I'll leave.

[MrHat]

On the alliance side, the conversation seems to be that rogues as a whole are having problems getting groups, but converting into an improved sap build tends to improve their chances of getting in quite a bit, especially in a group with a savvy raid leader.

Speaking as a guy with druid/priest mains, I have a huge problem with rogues in deadly environments.  My experience has been that they often show absolutely no caution with their paper armor, get slaughtered like lambs, and then bitch at the healer because I didn't spam-full-heal them the entire fight.  Part of this is because the rogue class holds a moth/flame lure for jackasses, part of it because people don't learn to adjust their strategy in different environments.  The one-shot pelvic grinding badassness works great in Stranglethorn, not so much elsewhere.  If I see a pickup group with 2 rogues in it, I'll leave.

I remain firmly behind the theory that a rogue should never expect a heal.  Ever.

A dispel maybe.  But not a heal.

[Grim Reaper]

Remember, not every Rogue is an idiot.  If  a rogue player remembers that he is no tank, and acts like a rogue, even when in parties, they can be a valuable asset to any group.  By the way, Hi guys.  I just signed up to your forum.  It is a nice one with a wealth of information.  Job well done   

I have 2 characters on Lightningsblade.

LVL 49 Ret Palidan

LVL 50 Assas/Sub Rogue

[WayAbvPar]

Welcome aboard.

[Hoax]

My 2cents on rogues in larger scale combat?

1.  Move in groups 2-4 is nice, you can insta gank and often the return fire will be spread too thin for most if not all to escape because there isn't really time to identify and call a prime target.  Also you can sometimes just go from target to target raping cloth users who have their eyes trained to the front.

2.  Defend instead of attacking, this is rare (like the mythical non self absorbed pld who uses his shields on people who DONT GET PLATE) but a rogue is the best thing -esp a stunlock rogue- you can have watching over your priest.  Rogues can often neutralize other rogues or warriors very effectively or take out or scare off a mage or hunter that is trying to snipe your healer.