WoW: 1.5 Million world wide.

[schild]

I fully expect to see all Blizzard employees wearing hats made of money at e3.

I can't believe with this in mind anyone has any long term concerns about retention.  Indeed, the way I see it, it can only be a massive moneyspinner for them, since in order to retain they just need to keep sticking in more content and if there's one thing that Blizzard have a proven record on, it's smashing out the 'next gen' expansion pack.

They're just damn, damn, damn good drug dealers and I think they'll keep the crack whores on this game for quite some time.

See now we aren't discussing WoW. We're discussing the chances of people not getting bored with an mmorpg. Warcraft III, II, and Starcraft have the ultimate staying power they have because of a host of reasons over which Blizzard has done little. They've created good STRATEGY GAMES. All of which I happen to own, because they really are rather incredible streamlined experiences. And take skill. That's right, skill. I would not be surprised in 6-8 months if many of the people who left Starcraft and Warcraft III went back to them because they miss the pure competition of a good 15 minute skirmish. Quite simply, it's a different experience, one that isn't really repeated in the industry. It's closest competition is shit (Armies of Exigo, Battle for Middle Earth, DoW - comparatively speaking), and the only people who are going to create a game to supercede them is Blizzard.

I expect a large amount of cannibalization this time next year (or whenever) Starcraft II comes out. Either that or there won't be any cannibalization if Blizzard managed to not grab many of their b.net kiddies. Which is looking more like what's going on given the number of people that still play on b.net.

I do however think that Blizzard will be able to hover above the 1million subscriber mark and not have a problem. Assuming, of course, that servers don't really start imploding. They're dealing with forces right now that are quite out of their control. And in retrospect, the whole bittorrent thing might not have been a bad idea. Given how much server hammering goes on in the game, some people might still be trying to get the launch day patch if not for bittorrent.  But really, I don't think it's about player retention, all they have to do is keep the number of new players higher than or equal to their churned players. That probably won't be a problem.

[HaemishM]

I like WoW. There I said it.

It's not a fantastic game. It IS Everquest done better. In case no one noticed, Everquest had the best retention figures in the industry this side of Korean Lineage style games. So why the fuck would anyone be worried about retention? And why is anyone questioning WoW's retention? It's 4 months and counting in the US people, and they shattered EQ1's subscriber numbers by almost double. They could lose almost half of their entire player base tomorrow and STILL have a more commercially successful MMOG than any other one released in the U.S. Also, I have no idea why people still think CoH is not successful at retention. Last reports are that it is still above 100k (more like 120k) in the U.S. alone. That's without a paid expansion, and only one new SKU at retail. I think we've all started to lose perspective when that is considered a retention failure.

There are only 3 things that WoW has done to innovate over Everquest:

1) Quest experience is more important to overall advancement.
2) Every server has PVP (though arguably this is not that innovative since it's almost directly stolen from DAoC)
3) It has instanced the content that is likely to be most hotly contested (also not totally innovative considering EQ's Lost Dungeons of Norrath, and Anarchy Online's use of instanced higher-level dungeons)

In the MMOG industry, STABILITY is a fucking innovation. Not having your game's client and/or server shit itself daily is a fucking innovation. Innovation in MMOG's is a low bridge, and most seem willing to play it like it was a limbo stick. Blizzard aimed low and almost hit the mark. Their continuing technical issues with database, login and stability is somehow not hurting them significantly, which I think proves that these games are truly addictive.

WoW doesn't suck. It is also not a messianaic nirvana machine. It is a fun MMOG, and it is the new reigning king among MMOG's.

[chinslim]

What I heard on Elwynn Forest general chat yesterday on my alt:

"This game isn't innovative or dynamic enough."

Add that to the list of WoW discussion pre-empts.

[Riggswolfe]

I love you Schild, I really do. But, I don't think anyone is gonna take anything you say about WoW seriously. You've had a serious hate-on for this game for as long as I can remember. At this point you're emotionally invested in being anti-WoW as you've poured so much energy into it.

As for retention, my guild has lost maybe 5 or 6 members, and most of those have moved to other servers and not quit the game in its entirety. The only major complaint anyone has is how slow Blizzard is to update things.

[schild]

I love you Schild, I really do. But, I don't think anyone is gonna take anything you say about WoW seriously. You've had a serious hate-on for this game for as long as I can remember. At this point you're emotionally invested in being anti-WoW as you've poured so much energy into it.

It doesn't take me much energy to hate on shit. Particularly not MMOGs. If it wasn't WoW, it would be whatever the flavor of the month MMOG is, I just don't see MxO being worth hating on. It's going to flop around like a salmon on dry land. WoW is just an easy target since many, MANY of it's fans are turning a blind eye to some of the same shit they've complained about in past games.

[Riggswolfe]

WoW is just an easy target since many, MANY of it's fans are turning a blind eye to some of the same shit they've complained about in past games.

Ok, well here's a question then. Why are they turning a blind eye? And let's not use the Blizzard fanboi argument because while it'd work for the MMO newbies, alot of F13 people like it. Take me for example: I own Diablo 2, Warcraft 3 and Starcraft but I haven't played any of them for a large chunk of time. The longest was probably Diablo 2 because I got caught up in the whole acquiring loot online thing.

So why are WoW players ignoring these issues?

[schild]

WoW is just an easy target since many, MANY of it's fans are turning a blind eye to some of the same shit they've complained about in past games.

So why are WoW players ignoring these issues?

I'd like to give you an answer. But it seems that there's no rational explanation. I lasted in SW:G for 8 months from launch day. I lasted in WoW for 3 weeks from launch day precisely because it presented me with nothing new. I'd done it all before in other games. And the graphics weren't a hook for me. I'm very easily willing to overlook disliking graphics though. I really think the game was everything I liked and disliked in MMOGs - again. Yet somehow, many MANY mmog veterans are still putting around Azaroth. This sort of unpredictable behavior can't be charted. And really, I hope it provides some of you with a years worth of content, but at this current patch rate, I just don't see that happening.

[Train Wreck]

WoW is just an easy target since many, MANY of it's fans are turning a blind eye to some of the same shit they've complained about in past games.

So why are WoW players ignoring these issues?

I'd like to give you an answer. But it seems that there's no rational explanation.

My rational explanation is that I'm not a hardcore MORPG player.  The only ones I have played are UO, EQ, and SWG.  WoW is really not more of the same to me, because I haven't played DAOC, SB, etc.

WoW is similar to EQ, but with important differences.  I would have liked EQ a lot if it hadn't been for:

- The amount of time that it wastes making you walk almost everywhere
- The enraging boredom of getting killed and having to spend the next hour recovering shit from your corpse
- Not to mention sometimes losing a whole playing session (or more) worth of xp in the process
- Most mobs of equal or even lower level being able to kick your ass to force grouping
- The hours that it would often take to find a group and get everybody in the same place,
- When key group members die, it can mean sitting on your ass for up to an hour or more waiting for them to get back.
- Spending so much time looking at the fucking spellbook during downtime that I read the LotR trilogy, and several other books, exclusively while medding in EQ.

WoW remedied every one of those problems.

This sort of unpredictable behavior can't be charted. And really, I hope it provides some of you with a years worth of content, but at this current patch rate, I just don't see that happening.

I don't see what's so unpredictable about it.  It's finally a chance to play a MORPG without having to devote blocks of hours of playing-time per session to accomplish anything.

[WayAbvPar]

It's finally a chance to play a MORPG without having to devote blocks of hours of playing-time per session to accomplish anything.

That is exactly why I am still playing. I know that when I get a chance to play for an hour or two, I can actually accomplish something that advances my character in some way.

[jpark]

I think the quests have little perks.

The world seems alive.  Yesterday I stumbled upon a battle with Centaurs raiding an orc outpost.  All NPCs.  But a few us players jumped in there and could heal and buff our side.  A peon even emerged to try and chop wood.  I killed a high level centaur and got exp for it - even though I was very late into the fight.

This made me feel apart of the world.

Today I killed some raptors.  Except to complete the quest I had to place a feather from my kill in each of three nests of the Raptors to ensure they "got the message".  lol.  Nice.

I killed a feared tiger today.  No big deal, except once I got to his lair I had to use this quest given horn to blow on to summon him.  I had no idea what to expect.  Again - the little touches.

[Toast]

Fun + Casual Friendly + Polish= A winner is WoW.

This isn't rocket science.

[El Gallo]

It's not a fantastic game. It IS Everquest done better. In case no one noticed, Everquest had the best retention figures in the industry this side of Korean Lineage style games. So why the fuck would anyone be worried about retention? And why is anyone questioning WoW's retention?

(1) because it lacks the brutalizing timesinks of EQ, people, even average people, consume content in WoW much more quickly than they did in EQ; (2) Blizzard is slow as fuck at putting out new content; (3) once people are out of content they are more likely to quit, especially because (4) WoW does not force people to develop social bonds like EQ did, and those social bonds can keep people sending in their checks long after the game itself is fun for them.   

[schild]

(4) WoW does not force people to develop social bonds like EQ did, and those social bonds can keep people sending in their checks long after the game itself is fun for them.

Bingo on how I lasted 8 months in SW:G. I still miss the guild I led there.

[Rasix]

Do we need to photoshop you up a picture of Calvin peeing on the WoW logo?

[schild]

Do we need to photoshop you up a picture of Calvin peeing on the WoW logo?

I'm simply not that hateful. Once again, but I'll say it slower this time:

WoW is the flavor of choice right now, it is the game that gets talked about. Almost everything I say applies to almost every other MMOG out there. Except for Fairyland. It's my favorite in the whole in entire world.

[Train Wreck]

For some reason, I've actually forged more social bonds in WoW than either EQ or SWG.  I can't put a finger on the reason why, especially since it DOESN'T force grouping.  Then again, the MORPG I forged the most bonds in was UO, which was also very solo-friendly. 

At the top of my head, here are some reasons why this might be the case:
- While soloing, if you reach a quest npc that you're not quite ready to take down by yourself, there is usually at least one other person already there, or will show up within minutes, with the same problem.  Solution: insta-group.

- Something that probably isn't unique to WoW, but it still very useful: the official forums, in which everybody posts as their in-game chars.  This is the first MORPG I've played in which bullshitting on forums at work can facilitate in-game relationships.

- In-game alchohol actually buffs your stats AND provides drunken entertainment.  W00t!  There are always bar/tavern hopping social events on ER, I just wish they would have them on a night that I'm not doing rl bar-hopping.

[Krakrok]

There are only 3 things that WoW has done to innovate over Everquest:

I think you missed one. The built in scripting language and client side modding heads the meta-gamers off at the pass and turns what otherwise might be destructive into something that is constructive or at least distracts them from being destructive.

[Fargull]

I like the fantasy based theme.  I enjoy the atmosphere of the Warcraft art.  Now, one of the first things I noticed about WOW was how fucking slow it is compared to COH.  However, one thing it shined over COH is the amount of content and the huge variety of areas.  Part of why I think I like the game is the structure the world is setup in is very intelligent in design from moving the newbie on up the leveling chart.

What makes it better than EQ and why I can stomac playing this night after night is the fact you have some positive feedback, some progression beyone the minimal xp bar move in much much less time.  The zoning in EQ always turned me off.  The lack of PvP turned me off.  WOW stomped those arguements into the ground.  PVP in WOW is not level dependant, level certainly influences, but in no way does it determine the outcome hands down.

[Jayce]

I like the fantasy based theme.  I enjoy the atmosphere of the Warcraft art.

I'm at a loss as to put it into a word.  It's sort of the opposite of steampunk.  Fantasy but with guns, planes, tanks and gadgets.  And a train.

Steamtasy?  That sounds WAY too Harlequin romance.  Fantasteam?  A soft drink.

[HaemishM]

There are only 3 things that WoW has done to innovate over Everquest:

I think you missed one. The built in scripting language and client side modding heads the meta-gamers off at the pass and turns what otherwise might be destructive into something that is constructive or at least distracts them from being destructive.

EQ's XML interface allows some of the same things, so I'd consider that more of an evolution. And just like EQ, WoW manages to break most of those with EVERY PATCH! YAY FOR PROGRES!!

[SirBruce]

Call me a troll one more time and I swear to god, I will set your stringy shitty hair on fire at E3. If you haven't noticed, the first thing you did in this thread was fucking troll. Goddamn, you truly are f13's retard.

Actually, it was Haemish who trolled first in this thread; I just responded to it.  But please, this thread is supposed to be about WoW and subscription numbers, not me.

Bruce

[Stephen Zepp]

Do we need to photoshop you up a picture of Calvin peeing on the WoW logo?

I'm simply not that hateful. Once again, but I'll say it slower this time:

WoW is the flavor of choice right now, it is the game that gets talked about. Almost everything I say applies to almost every other MMOG out there. Except for Fairyland. It's my favorite in the whole in entire world.

I personally don't agree with many of schild's observations in this thread, but I think he's right on here. From what I personally can tell, there are two primary "experience levels" for WoW players:

1) Jaded MMOG players from other games that like WoW because it fixes what they most hated about game X. They are settling for what WoW has and doesn't have, because playing it isn't a love-hate relationship, it's a "like" relationship, and that is so new and cool that they settle for the rest without noticing.

2) Brand new MMOG players: who knows how they did it for sure, but sheer numbers management demonstrates that WoW has brought more people to the genre than even the first MMOG's did over their complete lifecycles. These guys don't really know about all the "best of breed" features that existed in either successful MMOG's, or various projects that got zapped along the way, and therefore are happy with what they have (they don't know any better). Again, they are settling without even knowing that they are settling.

(Note: I know this doesn't cover every group/class of WoW player, I'm not trying to say that).

What I think is going to be really interesting is the retention after WoW gets a competitor that meets it's production standards, PLUS brings in the things that most of us want as well. As a (weak) analogy, think about the original automobiles as compared to initial MMOG's (Meridian 59, EQ, DAoC, UO), and think about WoW as the first mass-produced automobiles. Now, think about when the model-T wasn't the only equivalent product--Ford doesn't have the 100% market share that they had when mass-produced automobiles came out, and WoW (I think, anyway) won't be the MMOG people settle for when future MMOGs come out with equivalent production values.

[WayAbvPar]

Call me a troll one more time and I swear to god, I will set your stringy shitty hair on fire at E3.

Pics plskthx. I need a new avatar!

[Polysorbate80]

Call me a troll one more time and I swear to god, I will set your stringy shitty hair on fire at E3.

Pics plskthx. I need a new avatar!

Why wait?



Crappy photoshop job, but it *is* Friday afternoon...

[jpark]

Do we need to photoshop you up a picture of Calvin peeing on the WoW logo?

I'm simply not that hateful. Once again, but I'll say it slower this time:

WoW is the flavor of choice right now, it is the game that gets talked about. Almost everything I say applies to almost every other MMOG out there. Except for Fairyland. It's my favorite in the whole in entire world.

Flavor?  What other game was so warmly received?  I like CoH just as much - but not even that game was as warmly received as WoW.