Dynamic spawn vs static spawn: preference?

[Malakili]

The audience that wants games or MMOs at all is in the minority.  I suspect that the level of money to make an online game that would be dynamic enough to satisfy a subset of those gamers, however small or large that subset might be, is going to require a big budget.  It's just not going to be feasible anytime soon on a Darkfall budget. 

Not necessarily.  I mean, if you look at a game like Love, it is totally procedurally generated, has AI that builds its own towns, and attacks player towns, etc.  The world can be modified by players, and so forth.  Of course, that game isn't really what you would call a fully featured MMO by any stretch, but is a least proof that this sort of thing can be done with minimal resources.  The game has its issues and certainly isn't the end all, but it does show that dynamic content doesn't REQUIRE a huge budget.    I'd love to see more creative projects like Love that push the genre forward a bit.  Its barely an MMO and definitely isn't an RPG, but it has a lot more going for it that the latest DIKU ripoff.

[UnSub]

Big stupid superhero movies make the most money. Other types of movies still get made.

MMOs aren't movies though. "Paranormal Activity" was made for $11000 and it looks good enough to suit its purpose. A MMO made by a small team is going to cost multiples of that $11k and would look awful, which ties into your "it has to be professional" barrier.

Besides, the movie industry acknowledges its indie film makers to some degree and their output (not all of them, of course, but some). Indie games, especially indie MMO developers, don't get any of that kind of respect. In MMO terms, the only kind of titles that attract attention are the AAA ones - Love is being noted for curiosity value only.

[ghost]

The audience that wants games or MMOs at all is in the minority.  I suspect that the level of money to make an online game that would be dynamic enough to satisfy a subset of those gamers, however small or large that subset might be, is going to require a big budget.  It's just not going to be feasible anytime soon on a Darkfall budget. 

Not necessarily.  I mean, if you look at a game like Love, it is totally procedurally generated, has AI that builds its own towns, and attacks player towns, etc.  The world can be modified by players, and so forth.  Of course, that game isn't really what you would call a fully featured MMO by any stretch, but is a least proof that this sort of thing can be done with minimal resources.  The game has its issues and certainly isn't the end all, but it does show that dynamic content doesn't REQUIRE a huge budget.    I'd love to see more creative projects like Love that push the genre forward a bit.  Its barely an MMO and definitely isn't an RPG, but it has a lot more going for it that the latest DIKU ripoff.

Well, my point is that you aren't satisfied with it.  We may see people try, but they will fail to make anything worth a shit.

[UnSub]

And that's the problem - indie games are where things are going to be shifted up but they don't attract that much attention from the mainstream, while the mainstream complains that there is nothing new for them to play.

I sometimes compare MMOs to the PnP RPG market, where despite claims that people want something new and innovative D&D remains the once and future king. Sure, D&D has moved with the times in terms of mechanics, but its core remains pretty consistent (kill enemies, loot, level, repeat).

[Malakili]

And that's the problem - indie games are where things are going to be shifted up but they don't attract that much attention from the mainstream, while the mainstream complains that there is nothing new for them to play.

I sometimes compare MMOs to the PnP RPG market, where despite claims that people want something new and innovative D&D remains the once and future king. Sure, D&D has moved with the times in terms of mechanics, but its core remains pretty consistent (kill enemies, loot, level, repeat).

Pretty true, although to be honest I've enjoyed almost every pencil and paper RPG i've ever played.  This however, is way more likely to do with the fact that I am sitting around a table with a group of friends than anything else.

[Venkman]

Big stupid superhero movies make the most money. Other types of movies still get made.

MMOs aren't movies though. "Paranormal Activity" was made for $11000 and it looks good enough to suit its purpose. A MMO made by a small team is going to cost multiples of that $11k and would look awful, which ties into your "it has to be professional" barrier.

The scales are different, but the proportions still work. By some estimates, Club Penguin cost about $6-8mil to get to launch. That's done just fine even with its not-even-passably-substandard graphics.

Lightweight Flash MMOs are sort of the indie sleeper hit equivalent. Unless they're specifically made that way because it's the lowest-risk/lowest-investment approach. But those you can see coming a mile away

[UnSub]

True, but we are in an industry where some loud voices that argue titles like Runescape and Club Penguin shouldn't even be considered MMOs, or even where they are totally ignored despite being some of the most successful titles.

[Venkman]

We are in a part of the industry that chooses to ignore the other parts. If someone were to claim Webkinz wasn't an MMO, I'd listen. There's shared persistent spaces, and PvP (through playable games as proxy), but play between players is not nearly as prevalent as player against game.

But someone saying Runescape or CP aren't legit MMOs, their understanding of the industry probably starts and stops with the latest Blizzard press release. Might as well start saying Wizard 101 or FusionFall aren't either. At both the experiential and the technical level, some these are often times more of an MMO even than WoW, though none as much as Eve.

I suspect this is the same type of person that doesn't think a movie is "real" unless they can go see it at a Lowes or that stage shows aren't real unless they're actually in Manhatten, or some other equally uninformed bullshit.

[WayAbvPar]

Good thread...makes me wish someone was still working on the kinds of games I want. Raph's resource system is exactly the kind of stuff I want in my games, and that kind of thinking was what got me so excited about SWG (which an early beta visit soon killed). I want a dynamic, explorable world. I loved stuff like the griffon in EQ1 EC or the Giant and/or banshees (or whatever they were) that occasionally ravaged the lowbies in Oasis. I want unpredictability.

I like the idea of things getting scarier and more dangerous the further from civilization I go. If player housing stretches into the wilderness, the current residents either remove them or move along to greener pastures. Roaming bands of humanoid NPCs (war bands, gangs, whatever) that can show up in odd places, ramapaging dragons, rare ore/wood/plant spawns- I want to be surprised and excited by the world, not sitting around with a stopwatch waiting for the static spawn to pop again.

Definitely put me in the world v game camp. I have A LOT of games to play. Not too many interesting worlds to explore, live in, and change.

[UnSub]

The problem is that 'worlds' have small populations, use NPC / mob population 'cheats', be absolutely huge and / or place restrictions on what players can do to actually maintain them as world. If 100k players crashed an area, chopped down all the trees, kill all the wildlife and shove up houses everywhere, it pretty soon becomes the source of complaints that there is nothing to do and houses in good locations are unaffordable. It doesn't take long to explore areas, particularly with people hacking game maps and related activities.

I admire the intention to build a world, but imo reality is always waiting to give such attempts a sucker punch.

[Malakili]

The problem is that 'worlds' have small populations, use NPC / mob population 'cheats', be absolutely huge and / or place restrictions on what players can do to actually maintain them as world. If 100k players crashed an area, chopped down all the trees, kill all the wildlife and shove up houses everywhere, it pretty soon becomes the source of complaints that there is nothing to do and houses in good locations are unaffordable. It doesn't take long to explore areas, particularly with people hacking game maps and related activities.

I admire the intention to build a world, but imo reality is always waiting to give such attempts a sucker punch.

I actually agree, I've started to think that a multiplayer RPG is a better way to go here.  I've said several times (maybe in this thread, I don't remember), that NWN PW servers were the best "world" experiences I've had, and that was with an extremely limited engine.  The part that made it work was that DMs and players worked together in moving the world forward.  It was very much a collaborative effort.  I don't think that sort of experience can be recreated on a large scale, or with the standard MMO playerbase.

[Draegan]

Good thread...makes me wish someone was still working on the kinds of games I want. Raph's resource system is exactly the kind of stuff I want in my games, and that kind of thinking was what got me so excited about SWG (which an early beta visit soon killed). I want a dynamic, explorable world. I loved stuff like the griffon in EQ1 EC or the Giant and/or banshees (or whatever they were) that occasionally ravaged the lowbies in Oasis. I want unpredictability.

I like the idea of things getting scarier and more dangerous the further from civilization I go. If player housing stretches into the wilderness, the current residents either remove them or move along to greener pastures. Roaming bands of humanoid NPCs (war bands, gangs, whatever) that can show up in odd places, ramapaging dragons, rare ore/wood/plant spawns- I want to be surprised and excited by the world, not sitting around with a stopwatch waiting for the static spawn to pop again.

Definitely put me in the world v game camp. I have A LOT of games to play. Not too many interesting worlds to explore, live in, and change.

If I remember what I've read from some obscure and PR-speak massively articles and the like, Heroes of Talara is probably going to tackle some of these issues.