Was re: War, is re: POS mechanics/CSM platform

[Goumindong]

Lower the HP and it suddenly becomes easy to burn through more POS with a dread fleet. 

That is entirely the idea. That and reduce the number of POS you have to grind through...

How?  Siege time is fixed and any big player(not to mention many little players) can single cycle towers.  Plus you always bring many dreads as possible to guard against hot drops.  Lower HP would mainly help smaller or poorer entities who have to do it all with battleships.

Sieging POS successfully(and efficiently) depends on a number of things. One of which is disabling the POS so you do not lose capitals in the effort. If you've got a massive force its not going to make much of a difference. But you don't always have such a force and sometimes you might want to split it.

[Amarr HM]

For those who didn't see, my platform had a lot of mechanic changes like: Remove DDs, remove remote assigning of fighters, stacking nerf remote reps, remove POSes from Sov and make sov be determined in a manner similar to FW, same with station service disabling.  It's best not to argue about it here because there were so many changes of such controversy almost everyone hated them.

I read your thread and while I didn't agree with a lot of your proposals some of them were good, but I thought suggesting that you were the only good representative was either balllsy or misguided, considering your executor was also running 

[Amarr HM]

On the note of POS warfare I always thought Titans should work like deathstars and instead of Doomsday they could use a hi powered beam to basically gank POSes. I know it's totally cliche but if it works it could take a lot of the donkey work away from the grunts and also give the Titan a truly beneficial role other than a gigantic space-penis with dodgy side effects.

[palmer_eldritch]

On the note of POS warfare I always thought Titans should work like deathstars and instead of Doomsday they could use a hi powered beam to basically gank POSes. I know it's totally cliche but if it works it could take a lot of the donkey work away from the grunts and also give the Titan a truly beneficial role other than a gigantic space-penis with dodgy side effects.

So the big fight becomes about getting the titan into place and then trying to protect it for 30 mins or so while the other side tries to destroy it maybe?

[Murgos]

On the note of POS warfare I always thought Titans should work like deathstars and instead of Doomsday they could use a hi powered beam to basically gank POSes. I know it's totally cliche but if it works it could take a lot of the donkey work away from the grunts and also give the Titan a truly beneficial role other than a gigantic space-penis with dodgy side effects.

So the big fight becomes about getting the titan into place and then trying to protect it for 30 mins or so while the other side tries to destroy it maybe?

Puts too much burden on the defense.  All you have to do is wait for some time when the defenders are busy elsewhere or just not very active and go to town.

Or, are you suggesting keeping the current stront timing gameplay and just replace dreads with a titan + suport fleet?

[Jayce]

Or, are you suggesting keeping the current stront timing gameplay and just replace dreads with a titan + suport fleet?

I like this idea as long as you keep the stront timing.  And get rid of POS kiting too while you're at it.

One weakness is that it leaves dreads with no role, except that of hotdropping titans.  Unless they can still be the ghetto POS killer like battleships are now.

Maybe they could introduce a new Sov.  Make Constellation sov = Sov 5 and make Sov 4 come some time after sov 3 in every system. Then create a supercap jammer that's made only to keep titans out.

I guess now I'm off in wonderland.

[Amarr HM]

So the big fight becomes about getting the titan into place and then trying to protect it for 30 mins or so while the other side tries to destroy it maybe?

Yeh that would be pretty spot on, though I would say not completely replace the dread fleet just alleviate some of the time spent shooting the POS. It might take some time to power up or some mechanic that would basically help alleviate the POS warfare grind without radically changing the game. Just an example : the weapon might do 66% damage to a standard deathstar shields but it would cost a lot of cap to either run or a single shot for 100k cap meaning it would take a while to do one again and the Titan would be more vulnerable after using it.

[Murgos]

So the big fight becomes about getting the titan into place and then trying to protect it for 30 mins or so while the other side tries to destroy it maybe?

Yeh that would be pretty spot on, though I would say not completely replace the dread fleet just alleviate some of the time spent shooting the POS. It might take some time to power up or some mechanic that would basically help alleviate the POS warfare grind without radically changing the game. Just an example : the weapon might do 66% damage to a standard deathstar shields but it would cost a lot of cap to either run or a single shot for 100k cap meaning it would take a while to do one again and the Titan would be more vulnerable after using it.

So, what role do you give to Dreads?  What makes them worth having?

Also, I think this idea just means you Titan spam a system to take it.  Team with the most Titans willing to do silly hours wins.

[Sparky]

Step 1 is remove DD whatever you do.  Even without doomsday it's still very useful simply because of bridges.  Maybe increase the bridge range to compensate.  The ship ultimately should have some offensive capability though.  what if a titan could do a sieged dread damage, but without needing  to be in siege (and without all the associated downsides)?

Just throwing out a shitty idea, I haven't thought through the implications.

So, what role do you give to Dreads?  What makes them worth having?

Well one titan buys you a respectable dread fleet, so there's a cost/risk issue.  Also dreads are easier to train for.  You could ask the same question comparing cruisers and HACs.

[Amarr HM]

So, what role do you give to Dreads?  What makes them worth having?

I would rather not quibble about the details mainly cause my overall knowledge of the current POS warfare system is a little limited to be honest. I'm sure there are plenty ways you could implement it that leaves dreads with a role. Perhaps the beam would only be able to damage the tower or the towers shields so dreads would still be used to take out mods or finish it after reinforced comes out. Perhaps it's sieged while charging leaving the titan vulnerable to attack giving your support fleet a defensive role...etc. Also dreads could still be used to take out the Titans.

Also, I think this idea just means you Titan spam a system to take it.  Team with the most Titans willing to do silly hours wins.

Sure but right now we got team with most dreads doing even more silly hours wins right? The point is to lessen the grind without radically changing the game mechanics, the reason I think it's a good idea is it does this while giving the Titan a much needed role so double whammy.

[Yoru]

Chicken: To take space effectively, you will need at least one titan.
Egg: To build a titan, you must control space for 8+ weeks.

Expect to see a lot more Operation: Coathangers, too.

[Goumindong]

The idea that you should need an asset that requires you to own space in order to attack space is just plain retarded.

[Jayce]

Chicken: To take space effectively, you will need at least one titan.
Egg: To build a titan, you must control space for 8+ weeks.

Expect to see a lot more Operation: Coathangers, too.

A titan wouldn't be required, though.  Same as dreads aren't required now.  They just give you an advantage.

[Sparky]

A titan wouldn't be required, though.  Same as dreads aren't required now.  They just give you an advantage.

Very true.

[Goumindong]

Chicken: To take space effectively, you will need at least one titan.
Egg: To build a titan, you must control space for 8+ weeks.

Expect to see a lot more Operation: Coathangers, too.

A titan wouldn't be required, though.  Same as dreads aren't required now.  They just give you an advantage.

You also don't need tech 2 fit sniping battleship fleets to win fleet battles either...

[Yoru]

Chicken: To take space effectively, you will need at least one titan.
Egg: To build a titan, you must control space for 8+ weeks.

Expect to see a lot more Operation: Coathangers, too.

A titan wouldn't be required, though.  Same as dreads aren't required now.  They just give you an advantage.

Boil it down: Make it easier to take more space once you've already taken some space. The problem should be obvious.

[Fordel]

Rich get richer?

[slog]

In General, it should be harder, not easier, to keep your online empire together as it gets bigger.

[Jayce]

A titan wouldn't be required, though.  Same as dreads aren't required now.  They just give you an advantage.

Boil it down: Make it easier to take more space once you've already taken some space. The problem should be obvious.

We already have that problem.  That's not the problem I'm proposing this to solve. 


Though I do agree it's a problem.

[Sparky]

In General, it should be harder, not easier, to keep your online empire together as it gets bigger.

It is, we've taken high ends (and stations for that matter) off BoB simply because they've been busy elsewhere.  That's before you even consider the pure logistics burnout hell of a big empire.

It's possible these days to buy a titan on the open market too.  So you don't even need Sov 4, just assloads of cash which can be obtained anywhere.

[Sir T]

Another problem is that NPC space is in general better than sov space, simply as it requires no outlay to keep docking rights on the station and no-one can kick you out. That's one of the things that makes delve so nice as you have the best of both worlds.. Even id you say that you can make more money in sov space (which in general is not true) All your extra cash is burned up in fuel.

[Amarr HM]

I thought the main problem with POS warfare was that it's a huge timesink, people get burned out and exploits usually define the outcome.

[WayAbvPar]

And it less interesting than mining, which is saying something.

[Jayce]

I think that's an oversimplification.  We won this last round in spite of exploits.  And in any body large enough to merit holding space, there should be enough people around to avoid burnout. 

[MahrinSkel]

With the new logistics (JB chains, jump freighters, and Titan spacelifts) and the improved fuel bays, it's not as bad as it used to be.  Was a time that keeping a Fermionics chain going (4 large towers and 8 small) burned up 20 hours a week, most of that just moving fuel and moon goo around a single system (and trying to bring in the fuel).  After JB's and fuel bay changes, that dropped to 3 hours a week to maintain 12 large towers (and that included daily trips to refill the JB's, fuel came in monthly by freighter).

Setting up and breaking down towers is a huge PITA, but actually keeping them up, not so bad anymore.  POS based territorial warfare has a lot of flaws, but when you consider all the conflicting needs it's trying to fulfill, it's really not a bad system.  Compare it to SB's "Bane" system, or DAoC's Outpost system, the only others to try and fulfill the same kind of function (and on much smaller scales).

--Dave

[Amarr HM]

I think that's an oversimplification.  We won this last round in spite of exploits.  And in any body large enough to merit holding space, there should be enough people around to avoid burnout. 

Ok fair point then would one major problem be the defenders rarely turn up to defend a tower being put into reinforced?

[Jayce]

Do you mean when they are put into reinforced the first time?  There is less incentive to do it for sure, since it's not the end of the line. Also it can be hard to raise and organize a fleet on your enemy's schedule.  That's the whole point of making them come back to shoot it a second time.  I don't see how you can avoid that with any sov holding/conquering mechanic.