This just in - video games are juvenile!

[Margalis]

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/03/27/reporter-rant-rails-against-male-dominated-gaming-industry/

She singled Bleszinski out in her talk, saying she liked him, but that she was distressed by how juvenile most major games are. She dismissed top games as “power fantasies” and charged the games industry with neoteny. Look that one up.

Amazingly not only are there people who disagree with this, but violently so. Isn't this a little like saying the sky is blue and the sun is hot?

Over at Destructoid (which I won't bother linking to) the response was to take her comments out of context then post a bunch of sub-literate sexist comments which only seem to prove her point. I'm not sure what possesses people to think that the best way to combat charges that games are juvenile is to respond with "shut up u dum bitch!"

I don't get why video gamers are so defensive about things like this. It seems that whenever anyone offers any sort of critique of the gaming industry there is an immediate circling of wagons.

In this case I don't even see this as a "rant." It's just stating the beyond obvious.

[schild]

It's just like any entertainment industry. Of course it's juvenile. Everyone involved is a bunch of manchildren - not as an insult, merely saying people are in it because they have a love for games - which generally results in a poorer business side at most companies (blizzard, valve, square, insomniac etc not withstanding). Just like folks in the music and movie industry (granted both of them have come into their own on the business side). /shrug

[lesion]

she...is...

violently...hot

That's my kinda context, baby. Someone get my bowl of monochrome M&M's and we'll start brainstorming some damage control. Send a guy to W-dogg's to keep him chill. I bet he knows thirteen ways to kill a person using their own urine and a trowel.

[Triforcer]

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/03/27/reporter-rant-rails-against-male-dominated-gaming-industry/

She singled Bleszinski out in her talk, saying she liked him, but that she was distressed by how juvenile most major games are. She dismissed top games as “power fantasies” and charged the games industry with neoteny. Look that one up.

Amazingly not only are there people who disagree with this, but violently so. Isn't this a little like saying the sky is blue and the sun is hot?

Over at Destructoid (which I won't bother linking to) the response was to take her comments out of context then post a bunch of sub-literate sexist comments which only seem to prove her point. I'm not sure what possesses people to think that the best way to combat charges that games are juvenile is to respond with "shut up u dum bitch!"

I don't get why video gamers are so defensive about things like this. It seems that whenever anyone offers any sort of critique of the gaming industry there is an immediate circling of wagons.

In this case I don't even see this as a "rant." It's just stating the beyond obvious.

I had been given to understand by a Brokentoys poster that such juvenile behavior toward women is acceptable, as standard retribution for nerds being picked on in high school.  Circle of life and whatnot. 

http://www.brokentoys.org/2009/03/20/this-just-in-women-exist-in-the-gaming-industry/comment-page-1/#comments

[IainC]

I had been given to understand by a Brokentoys poster that such juvenile behavior toward women is acceptable, as standard retribution for nerds being picked on in high school.  Circle of life and whatnot. 

http://www.brokentoys.org/2009/03/20/this-just-in-women-exist-in-the-gaming-industry/comment-page-1/#comments

Most of the posters on Brokentoys can safely be ignored as irrelevant and/or uninformed. Including you. Especially me.

[Hawkbit]

I suppose my only real issue isn't so much the sexism, rather her point about "power fantasies". 

To me, the whole point of playing a video game is to experience some other point of view, most often one that isn't possible within our world.  To be a fantasy is the game's whole purpose. 

So you enter this new world that has different cultures, landscapes and creatures and you're expected to be not the hero of the story, but the everyday Joe?  I'm not seeing the fun in that.  Being or becoming powerful is exactly the point. 

There are games that have been successful without both components.  But the best games, to me, have been exactly "power fantasies".  Legend of Zelda on the NES was my first real "power fantasy". 

If she wants to rant and rave about how there's too many 13 year olds playing Halo on Xbox live, then she needs new terminology. 

I also find it slightly ironic that her book is on bargain bin $5.00 pricing at Amazon. 

[Tige]

In this case I don't even see this as a "rant." It's just stating the beyond obvious trying to sell a book.

They are games.

game /geɪm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [geym] Show IPA noun, adjective, gam⋅er, gam⋅est, verb, gamed, gam⋅ing.
–noun
1.    an amusement or pastime

They help avoid -

boredom bore⋅dom /ˈbɔrdəm, ˈboʊr-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [bawr-duhm, bohr-] Show IPA
–noun
the state of being bored; tedium; ennui.

[Amarr HM]

I think what she's trying to say is that the majority of mainstream games don't hold any intellectual or cultural value and adding adult themes usually means an onscreen bloodbath, recreational boredom or the 70's era pornlite scenes in The Witcher. I would tend to agree with her but there are also a lot of mainstream Music/TV shows that are cliched and intellectually defunct, so it's probably more a sign of what mass-society views as entertainment not the industry.

"At the same age of their medium.... Rock n roll had Bob Dylan and the Beatles." this is a terrible analogy Rock n' Roll is a genre not a medium her argument kinda falls flat here, seriously though fuck MTV reporters.

[Salamok]

I can't figure out if her revelation that "video games are juvenile" is a sign of someone who gets it or someone who has missed the point entirely.  The fact that she presents it as some sort of revelation has me leaning towards the latter.

[stray]

Agreed etc.. "news at 11"

I will say though that I wish it wasn't the case. I don't care about half of the games out there. Scratch that. I don't care about any games really except a few. Supposedly my age bracket is the biggest purchaser of games, and yet, the content of most games doesn't reflect that.

[squirrel]

Well too be fair to her she has to generate some controversy. Who the fuck else is going to read her book? It's not exactly a mainstream title.

"Hey nerd boy - you're juvenile! Buy my book plz?"

[Ratman_tf]

Yep. Book whores. Nothing to see here. Move along.

[DeathInABottle]

At the same age of their medium, Chaplin said, movies had had Fritz Lang and were on the verge of Citizen Kane. Rock n roll had Bob Dylan and the Beatles. With games? She said she enjoys “Gears of War,” but she’s not impressed with the field.

Can we go ahead and assume that she's familiar with Planescape, Deus Ex, Shadow of the Colossus, etc., and that the article is just written in a way that covers over those subtleties?  Or that she's smart enough to argue that a new medium might have new virtues, and that focusing exclusively on traditional narrative gameplay - even narrative as good as the stuff found in the games I just mentioned - rather than innovative gameplay that breaks out of those confines is kind of stupid?  We can assume that, right?

[Margalis]

Funny how this thread has also turned into video game players being overly defensive.

Well too be fair to her she has to generate some controversy.

She was speaking at a session that specifically called for rants, so I don't think it's fair to claim she was whoring for sales or books or looking to stir shit up. If people are going to be offended by rants why have a session devoted to them? This rant is too ranty, mercy me oh lordy!!

Also this isn't some total outsider like Ebert. Can anyone seriously disagree that games as a whole aren't incredibly juvenile? We're really now attacking someone for saying that the sky is blue?

[Salamok]

the sky is blue isn't exactly a rant, the fact that she is presenting it as such is my entire problem with this peice.

[Ratman_tf]

Personally, I'd be more interested in the book if they went into the whys and hows of gameplay that isn't juvenile. Anybody can point a finger at something like Mortal Kombat and call it a juvenile power trip. That observation is nearly 20 years old.

[Sky]

Can anyone seriously disagree that games as a whole aren't incredibly juvenile?

Yes.

[Stormwaltz]

Can anyone seriously disagree that games as a whole aren't incredibly juvenile?

As a whole? Yeah, I can. Most of them, sure. 90% of everything is crap. Most things on TV and in theaters are juvenile too.

You have to be hang out with the art house filmmakers to see something meaningful. She hung out with Michael Bay Cliff Bleszinski. Forgone conclusion.

The games that sell millions tend to be juvenile because that's what most people want in their entertainment.

[stray]

The games that sell millions tend to be juvenile because that's what most people want in their entertainment.

Well, there's the Sims. Not the bastion of maturity or anything, but not exactly juvenile either. Sports and racing games aren't exactly juvenile, and sell tons as well.

In other genres, I don't think it's very common to see anyone even try. It's the developers' faults, first and foremost. Many are immature, therefore they make immature games.

[lamaros]

Can anyone seriously disagree that games as a whole aren't incredibly juvenile? We're really now attacking someone for saying that the sky is blue?

You can say the same thing about books and film and music also, if you take your argument a certain way.

I mean, Tetris as juvenile power fantasy? Microsoft Flight Sim? Countless other examples? Sure you can say that as a whole this selection isn't representative and the rant has some merit, but what is the point there? How is that comment saying anything specific about gaming that doesn't also apply to music videos, advertising, film, and so forth?

Edit:

At the same age of their medium, Chaplin said, movies had had Fritz Lang and were on the verge of Citizen Kane. Rock n roll had Bob Dylan and the Beatles. With games? She said she enjoys “Gears of War,” but she’s not impressed with the field.

And you know that that line of argument holds no water.

[schild]

We're really now attacking someone for saying that the sky is blue?

No, we're attacking her for being an attention whore. Or at least I am.

[UnSub]

I could find examples that contradict the whole power fantasy idea (Silent Hill 2 popped to mind) but the reality is that 1) this kind of thing dovetails into the "are video games art?" area of argument, 2) her examples are carefully picked, acknowledged critical successes now, but may not have been seen that way at the time and 3) unlike movies and music, video games re-write their basic tools every three years or so. Movies and music get transferred to the new recording format, but old computer games are mostly left to rot.

[Tale]

She singled Bleszinski out in her talk

Before Quake, before Unreal, when Doom 2 was the game, I was a reporter for Australia's top-selling technology magazine. The internet was my specialist area of knowledge, followed by games.

Whenever something was happening with id Software, I would get on IRC in the #quake channel, where John Romero would announce the multiplayer test or whatever it was.

While we were all waiting, I used to chat with cliffyb from Epic Megagames, then known only for shareware. He kept talking about this game Unreal he was working on, and how awesome it was going to be.

He's sure done a lot in the last 15 years, but I don't think he's got any older :)