TF2 Goldrush

[Musashi]

I can't believe you people don't like Goldrush.  I think it's the best map I've ever played in any FPS.  Different strokes I guess.

[Prospero]

It needs some balance work, but yeah, it's a fucking brilliant map.

[Kail]

I can't believe you people don't like Goldrush.  I think it's the best map I've ever played in any FPS.  Different strokes I guess.

Nothing against the map type itself, just I generally play on pubs, and a lot of maps (Goldrush among them) have a problem with one side completely blowing the other away based on relatively small differences in skill.

Granary, for example, originally had the middle CP as being the most difficult to capture; once that one went down, the team that capped it would respawn faster, and the centre CP has the longest capture timer.  So, there was sometimes a bit of a brawl over the middle point, but then once one team capped it, there was a huge landslide against the other team as it got harder and harder for them to defend.  Valve did this kind of thing to a lot of their maps, part of their "stalemates are for pussies" initiative or something, I think.

In Goldrush, there's a lot of inertia to the play, in the form of whether that cart is moving forwards or backwards.  So I see a lot of huge blowouts, where one team has a guy or two on it who are slightly better than the other team, and can move/stop the cart.  So they either win every point by this one guy inching it forward for twenty minutes, or lose on the first point because they don't have anyone who can do that.  Kind of fun for the winning team, but slow torture if you're on the losing team.

Probably in clan matches it's a lot of fun, but I generally find it a bit frustrating in games with random pubbies.

[Musashi]

So, uh... what you're saying is, in Goldrush, skilled players can decide the outcome.  You're right.  That's terrible.

 

I'm with you on the 5 control point maps though.  I hate them all.  I don't know if it's a matter of pubs not knowing to set up on the next one quickly enough after one gets capped, or what.  They either take too long, or someone got completely rolled and everyone feels cheated.  I think that's just a fact of life on pugs though.  I also hate 2 Fort because pubs don't go for the intelligence, they just try to kill people.

That's why I think Goldrush is so awesome though, because it's balanced for almost all the classes.  So no matter what, even if you're in a pub, there's something for the class you want to play to do at any given time.  Blue Scouts and sometimes Pyros are useless, but that's about it.  I haven't noticed the blow outs in Goldrush at all, at least not to the same degree as 5 point maps.

[Samwise]

Goldrush's biggest flaw is that it's woefully imbalanced; the win stats are tilted very heavily toward red.  This is actually a pretty good thing for pubs, though, because the bad team gets to feel warm and fuzzy about holding the good team off at the last point, even if the good team's been holding off the bad team all the way back at the first point.

[Musashi]

There are win stats?

What do you think makes it so imbalanced towards red?

Also, who plays TF2 in organized groups?  I'd be willing to bet that even those WITH organized groups spend the majority of their time in pubs.

[Samwise]

There are win stats?

http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/tf2_stats.php

Scroll down to the bottom to see per-map statistics.  Goldrush is far and away the most heavily tilted toward one side (80%/20% in favor of red).

What do you think makes it so imbalanced towards red?

I think it's that the cart has a long way to go and a limited amount of time to get there, and certain sections of the map are relatively easy to lock down (e.g. spots where a sentry can cover the approach path with minimal exposure, such that it's easy for a sniper or other support class to protect it from the usual counters).

[Triforcer]

The only 5 point control map I've ever played that isn't over after the first center capture is toyfort.  I regularly see toyfort swing back and forth, and battles there are actually exciting.  I wish they'd add that to the rotation. 

[Margalis]

The map design really hurts, a lot of the areas look too similar and it's hard to figure out where the different control points are. What little I played I found myself defending one control point or attacking one but not even really being able to find the others, let alone quickly enough to defend them after a previous one had fallen.

If I'm typical of a pub-server retard then that might be part of the problem.

[Samwise]

Wait, you can't find your way from one control point to the next on goldrush?

... on GOLDRUSH?  The one where there's a railroad track connecting all the points?

[Margalis]

No not Goldrush, I was talking about other control point maps. (Don't know the names)

[eldaec]

Goldrush's biggest flaw is that it's woefully imbalanced; the win stats are tilted very heavily toward red.  This is actually a pretty good thing for pubs, though, because the bad team gets to feel warm and fuzzy about holding the good team off at the last point, even if the good team's been holding off the bad team all the way back at the first point.

Plus it means pubs get to see all three maps.

Higher the skill level of players, the more balanced Goldrush gets. The sentry thing is a good example.

Sentries are not espeicially useful against good goldrush players. All the good spots for killin' have somewhere to rocket the sentry down from.

[Musashi]

There are win stats?

http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/tf2_stats.php

Scroll down to the bottom to see per-map statistics.  Goldrush is far and away the most heavily tilted toward one side (80%/20% in favor of red).

What do you think makes it so imbalanced towards red?

I think it's that the cart has a long way to go and a limited amount of time to get there, and certain sections of the map are relatively easy to lock down (e.g. spots where a sentry can cover the approach path with minimal exposure, such that it's easy for a sniper or other support class to protect it from the usual counters).

I dunno man.  There are any number of explanations for that win imbalance.  Goldrush is a fairly new map, and defense is generally much easier for newbs.  I wonder what that imbalance will be as more and more people learn the map.  On the bottom of that stat page they have a topographic of where people die, and it looks like the only really imbalanced part is where blue has to go through that tunnel.  And now that I think about it, most games I play on that part of the map usually end up in standoffs at that point.  So yea, maybe that one half of one map.

[Prospero]

goldrush 1.2, 2.2, and 3.3 are equally horribly balanced. In all cases the chokepoints to get the final capture point are brutal and the defensive spawn point is very close to the last capture location. Defensive snipers are also somewhat overpowered due to the incredible sight lines through said chokepoints. The only reason the death maps of goldrush 2.x and 3.x are so quiet is that very few games go that far. I think the other goldrush CPs are setup fairly well, but all the end points need some work.

[Musashi]

If what you're saying is true then there should be big yellow blobs at the front of the other maps.  There's not.

[Samwise]

If what you're saying is true then there should be big yellow blobs at the front of the other maps.  There's not.

The only reason the death maps of goldrush 2.x and 3.x are so quiet is that very few games go that far.

 

[Musashi]

Sooooo...  if the games don't get that far then the deaths should all be happening at the beginning...  which would cause big yellow blobs on the death map at the front of the other maps...

 

You guys don't like the map.  I'll live.

[Samwise]

Sooooo...  if the games don't get that far then the deaths should all be happening at the beginning...  which would cause big yellow blobs on the death map at the front of the other maps...

If blue doesn't make it past stage one because they all die there, they don't make it to stage two.  If they don't make it to stage two, they don't die in stage two, because they aren't there.  Stage three is right out.  Hence the big yellow blob in stage one and relatively little in stages two or three.

 

Also, I like goldrush.  As long as the sides switch frequently, imbalance isn't necessarily bad.  Though I do wish I got to see more of the map on a regular basis.

[Musashi]

 

http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/death_maps/pl_goldrush_deaths.jpg

Maybe I'm not being clear.  If blue doesn't make it past stage one, and in fact all die there, then there should be yellow blobs, or worse RED BLOBS at the beginning of the map.  But there aren't any.  In fact in all three phases, the deaths look extremely sparse in the beginning.  That should rationally lead you to the conclusion that people are dying at the end of the map, where correlating yellow spots on the map grow increasingly bright.  There's only one really ugly, unbalanced part of the whole thing, which is that tunnel/building thing where you see the big red blob.  There are only two control points on that phase of the map, and the really bad part is after the first point. 

So where are all these terrible choke points at the beginning of the stages?  It's been my experience that most times blue ubers like three different guys and blows the shit out of the first point.  If you look at Goldrush next to the other maps, the choke points don't look nearly as bad. 
 
I think it has more to do with the cart mechanic than omghax sentry spots.  So, yea red wins more.  You must push little cart.

[Samwise]

The relatively "bright" spots in the later stages are the horrible choke points for those stages, whose horror is only diminished by the fact that so few survive the first one. 

In stage two (far left), it's that little tunnel between the two points that the entire blue team has to pour into to get the cart moving, and later that little underpass right before the second capture point (2.2) where the big wall of sentry gun death goes (on that ledge in the corner that's hard to bounce grenades onto).

In stage three (middle of the map), the bright spots are even less bright because fewer of the games make it that far, but again, there's one at that bend after the first point (again, a major choke point since EVERYTHING has to go through that one hallway), and one more at the bend before the last point (3.3, aka the Narrow Hall of Sniper and Pipebomb Death).

Note that in all cases points the brightest spot are right on top of the track -- hence, the problem is not that the blue team is not pushing the cart.

[Prospero]

The coloring is scaled across the entire map. The fact those other chokepoints are barely yellow is a testament to how many people die in that corridor.

[schild]

On the first part of gold rush (and the second part), you can really die anywhere on the map. It's total chaos. On the third part, there's a built in choke point where whether you win or die determines the outcome of the last round. That's to say, the map is colored exactly how it should be given how it's laid out.

[Musashi]

Come on guys.  There's barely a slight hint of yellowish discoloration in the beginning of any of the three stages.  All the slowdown is toward the end of the maps.  You can't really say that 'goldrush is horribly unbalanced' because good defense is easy and fun.  You can't say that the map is broken because fixed positions are a broken game mechanic.  You can't ask for laser guided invisible spy starcraft ghost nuke dropping to take out sentries to make it more fair for the poor blue noobs who don't get to see half the map when they lose because shooting rockets at sentries is apparently hard. 

Goldrush's possession of awesome is a fact.  If you don't agree with that, it's cool.  But please find something else besides balance to excuse your foolishness.  It's like gazelles complaining about lion balance.  We should all know better than to expect shit to be perfectly balanced to everyone's satisfaction.  Defense wins more because defense wins more irl.  I think that's part of the awesome.

[Prospero]

I'm not saying the beginning part of each stage is hard. 1.2, 2.2, and 3.3 are the last capture points for each stage. Those are the problem spots. As to defense having the advantage, in dustbowl the defense only wins 60% of the time as opposed to 80% in goldrush. That's much more reasonable in my opinion. You actually get to see all the stages on a regular basis! :)

[Samwise]

Goldrush's possession of awesome is a fact.  If you don't agree with that, it's cool.

Musashi, the people you're arguing with are on record ON THIS VERY PAGE as liking the map. 

At some point you might want to take a step back and say to yourself "self, am I being a douchebag?"  You might be surprised what the answer is.

[Musashi]

I'll do that.

OH SWEET, I'M NOT.

[Samwise]

I told you it'd be surprising.   

[Triforcer]

I don't mind not getting past the first part of goldrush that much because on defense, it is the most godliest spy map ever.  I start the game crouched on the tire pile in the far right corner and get 4 or 5 kills before I die.  When they get to the point where they've really cleared out the first part and are just moving the cart, another 3 or 4 go down.  As for second point defense, I just sit in that little alcove where the ladder from the trench is and stab anyone who tries to move the cart.  If I get bored I stealth and go back in the first part and stab snipers and soldiers/heavies coming out of the spawn.

I don't claim to be good, but its an unusual Goldrush 1 defense pub where I don't win by 15-20 points.  Its just set up as a spy's dream.  Defense of 2 is also very sweet.