New Computer Build, advice requested

[AutomaticZen]

DDR3 or DDR2?
DDR3

And how many sticks? Especially in regards to using an i5 vs. an i7 with dual vs. triple channel. The general feeling I'm getting is that it' better to go with the i5 and probably go with 4 x 2gb?
I generally go with 6 GB (personal choice, 4 GB is fine if you're going dual channel).  In triple channel (for i7, socket 1366 boards) that means 3 sticks of 2 GB RAM.  In dual channel (for i5/i7, 1156 socket boards) that's 2 sticks of 2 GB, and 2 sticks of 1 GB.  The triple channel memory is cheaper by $10-20, but you'd lose the cost savings on CPU and motherboard.  Cheap method:  Go with dual channel, buy 4 GB (2x2Gb), and later on, buy another 2 or 4 GB.

Any guidelines on how fast the RAM should be? Is there anything more than some marginal benefit in faster RAM?
From Tom's Hardware:

High End Memory Is Not Worth The Money

The results are obvious: going from one memory speed to the next, e.g. from DDR3-1066 to 1333, does not provide major benefits. Even the replacement of slow DDR3-800 RAM by DDR3-1600 memory will mostly yield disappointing results. While the performance advantage is measurable, it is never noticeable.

Exceptions, however, do exist. Compressing files with WinRAR is significantly quicker on fast, low latency DDR3-1600 RAM. Some applications, such as games, can at least take minor advantage of the upgraded memory horsepower.

...

Memory Recommendation

Knowing all of these results, it is obvious that highest speed DDR3 memory only makes sense for serious enthusiasts, or for those with unlimited budgets. Everyone else should focus on mainstream clock speeds of DDR3-1066 or DDR3-1333, and go for a trustworthy brand and the quickest timings their budget allows.

DDR3 1600 is the most readily available speed of DDR3.  You might be able to find some deals.

[Sky]

With the graphics cards, better to go with a 5850 or with crossfired 5750/5770? I figure going with an i5 gives me a bit more dinero for a graphics card...

Ninja edit: Nevermind re-read the anandtech article... 5850 it is...

I still don't understand why people would consider a 128-bit memory controller in 2009. That was good tech in 2003. Especially when you can get cards in the same price range, well under the specified budget. I'd say 256-bit is baseline, anything less and you're screwing yourself for no reason. And you should really try to get the widest path you can afford imo, it's one of my game machine building rules, like stuffing in as much high speed ram as you can afford to.

[Salamok]

I picked up this case for $80 and love it: coolermaster_sileo500, Don't forget a Zalman Aftermarket CPU fan.

Did you get this Zalman?  If so, is it a tight fit in that case?

Not sure which flavor of big ass Zalman I got but yeah it fits.  The case isn't as silent as I would like it (most likely due to my power supply) but it is much less noisy than my last case.  I also like the sleek business like exterior that does not look like a carnival ride.  Mounting everything in the case was a joy (no sharp edges and mostly tool-less).

[Engels]

holy cthulu cabling, batman!

[Hoax]

Ok spoke with my friend and went over his options, talked about possible savings with him and he pretty much waved me off.  So here's the final build that is only missing an aftermarket cpu cooler.

CoolerMaster 690

SeaSonic Modular 700W

ASUS P6T X58

i7 920

Corsair XMS3 3x2GB

Windows 7 Home Premium 64

Western Digital Caviar Black 700GB

XFX 4890

cd/dvd

Its coming out to $1435 w/ S&H before I combo deal any of that stuff.  There is a $20 MIR on the SeaSonic but I always fail to get that money one way or another so I don't count it.  I think I'll easily end up under $1450 all told with the cpu cooler once I combo deal a few things.

[Trippy]

cd/dvd

Why would you not get a burner?

[Hoax]

He said he didn't care.  Says he never burns anything and his wife has one on her laptop.  Figured save the $10 bucks then or whatever.

[Salamok]

cd/dvd

Why would you not get a burner?

Or at least sata, ribbon cable FTL.

[Hoax]

cd/dvd

Why would you not get a burner?

Or at least sata, ribbon cable FTL.

Shit, now that is a damn fine point, I fucking hate Ribbon cable.

[fuser]

Ok spoke with my friend and went over his options, talked about possible savings with him and he pretty much waved me off.  So here's the final build that is only missing an aftermarket cpu cooler.

CoolerMaster 690

Looks like a really nice system. Running my q6600 in that case, its really nice but pick up a few 120mm fans, I think two were in the box and it has mounting for like 5.

Take a look at this Corsair H50 HSF for cooling

[Engels]

I've never been convinced by heatsinks that rely on a longish narrow pipe to conduct the heat up to a cooling grill.

[rattran]

You don't believe in heat pipes?

[Salamok]

We could go into a long description of the physics behind heat pipes but I have a feeling the economic argument is probably easier to understand.

Dell has been using these for the last 10 years, if they didn't work I seriously doubt Dell would spend the extra money to put this set up in all of their desktops.  These are the same guys that didn't believe in adding a 2nd connection to their ribbon cable, unless you ordered a system with more than one HD.

[Kageh]

For an i7, if you don't plan to overclock, you don't need an aftermarket cooler. Stock cooler is perfectly okay for stock speeds. You will probably get a D0 stepping i7 nowadays, you can and should undervolt those easily by about 20%. I did some experimenting with my Xeon W3520 (which is a re-labeled server i7-920(D0)) and I got a 3GHz OC with 0.95 VCore (stock VCore is 1.25V). 

If you plan to OC at some point, go for an aftermarket cooler, as swapping coolers is a PITA with an already built system. My recommendations (in this order) would be:

• Prolimatech Megahalems (best performance for air cooling on a i7, costly, no fans included)
• Therrmalright IFX (can probably beat an Megahalems if you run it with 3 fans, but it will cost a lot with 3 decent ones)
• Scythe Mugen 2 (best value for money as an i7 cooler, cheap, bundled with fan, great performance)
• Noctua NH-U12P SE1366 (an oldie, but still the best "silent" cooler, performance wise. The bundle comes with two awesome fans)

The listed Corsair H50 is actually an interesting alternative if you want to bother with a "mini" watercooling setup. You still have to fit the radiator somewhere inside, and I have no idea how long till you need to swap the coolant, but it gives good cooling performance and is very quiet.

Zalman is not in the league to play with the big boys on air cooling an i7. They used to make decent S775 coolers, but i7 is a different story. CNPS10X is their top cooler, and the "Extreme" version roars like a turbine while still not cooling best in the top bracket.

[fuser]

The listed Corsair H50 is actually an interesting alternative if you want to bother with a "mini" watercooling setup. You still have to fit the radiator somewhere inside, and I have no idea how long till you need to swap the coolant, but it gives good cooling performance and is very quiet.

The rad fits into the 120mm placement right behind the CPU in most cases. In the CM690 it would fit there but a major difference with the H50 is the requirement to draw cold air into the case from the mounting, not exhaust as per normal setups. The CM690 has a top 120mm fan slot right above the cpu mounting so you could draw the hot air out and exhaust from it for a really nice air flow.

I really hate recommending the big HSF like the thermal right ultra120 because they are so f'n heavy I'm sure one of these days its going to crack my motherboard due to its shear weight.

Oh well the H50 is a silly recommendation stick with a decent and proven air cooling solution.

I've never been convinced by heatsinks that rely on a longish narrow pipe to conduct the heat up to a cooling grill.

In the H50 its not a heat pipe, its liquid cooled (closed system water cooling from the copper base upto the rad with its own built in pump sitting on top of the copper base).

[Sheepherder]

I've never been convinced by heatsinks that rely on a longish narrow pipe to conduct the heat up to a cooling grill.

You mean the technology commonly used to cool nuclear reactors on satellites?

I'm not even trying to be an douche here, do a Wikipedia search for "heat pipe", you are missing some seriously good shit.

[Miguel]

Stock cooler is perfectly okay for stock speeds.

What about noise?  I've heard some really loud stock Intel HSF's...this is usually why I end up replacing it (or at least lowering the voltage down to make it quieter).

[Kageh]

Good point, haven't experienced that first hand because I used an aftermarket one from start, but here's what Google had to say:

High fan speed


Low fan speed


I'm not very versed in dB values, so can't comment on whether 44 is too loud.

[Engels]

Doh, I totally missed that the 'stem' was part of a liquid cooling system. I just figured it was a rod of copper or some such.

Of course I am down with heat pipes. Its just my experience that when you have all your heat being shunted up one or two narrow copper pipes rather than the 4-6 normally seen, you get slower heat dissapation, no matter how big and macho your radiator/fan combo is. That's all.

[Numtini]

Wow, thanks for the suggestion on looking up heat pipes. I never trusted the heat pipe cooling things on an emotional level because I didn't understand how they worked, but I knew I was being irrational or the reviews at newegg would be full of complaints.

[Murgos]

44.1 dB is over twice as loud as 39.7 dB. As a rule of thumb intensity doubles every 3 dB (i.e. 10^1.3 ~= 20).

According to wiki 30 dB is a very quiet room, 40 dB is very soft conversation.

[Falconeer]

I just went yesterday to preorder my new beast, but I can still make a few changes if needed.
Would you give me an opinion?

- Case: Thermaltake Spedo Tower Black - €202
- PSU: ATX 1100w Cooler Master 80plus Bronze Quad - €206
- Mobo: Asus SkAM3 Crosshair Formula 3 DDR3 - €159
- CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 3.4 Ghz 8mb Black Edition - €163
- RAM: 4x2gb Corsair PC3-12800 1600mhz CL8 - €210
- HD: Western Digital 1tb S-ATA II 3.5 Caviar Black - €82
- Videocard: GeForce GTX295 1,792 GB - €412
- OS: Win 7 Pro - €143
- Monitor: Samsung 23 P2370 50000:1 1000:1 300cd/m2 2ms - €220

Grand total: 1797 euros, which is at today's exhange rates 2662 USD (whoa, what's going on with your money, pals?!)

Comments?

EDIT: Are they robbing me on some components? Are prices so different from US to southern EU?

[Hoax]

I just went yesterday to preorder my new beast, but I can still make a few changes if needed.
Would you give me an opinion?

- Case: Thermaltake Spedo Tower Black - €202
- PSU: ATX 1100w Cooler Master 80plus Bronze Quad - €206
- Mobo: Asus SkAM3 Crosshair Formula 3 DDR3 - €159
- CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 3.4 Ghz 8mb Black Edition - €163
- RAM: 4x2gb Corsair PC3-12800 1600mhz CL8 - €210
- HD: Western Digital 1tb S-ATA II 3.5 Caviar Black - €82
- Videocard: GeForce GTX295 1,792 GB - €412
- OS: Win 7 Pro - €143
- Monitor: Samsung 23 P2370 50000:1 1000:1 300cd/m2 2ms - €220

Grand total: 1797 euros, which is at today's exhange rates 2662 USD (whoa, what's going on with your money, pals?!)

Comments?

For that kind of money there have to be better cases, also thats more money then bit-tech's review suggests it should be.  Here is their conclusion:

On paper the Thermaltake Spedo should be one of the best cases we’ve looked at this year, combining a whole range of desirable features like an excellent cable routing system, easy access drive bays in a highly configurable setup and an innovative compartment system with one of the most capable cooling setups we’ve see here in the bit-tech labs.

Sadly what’s written on the spec sheet hasn’t been translated into the finished product and while the core steel chassis is well built and very solid, not to mention nicely finished and painted inside and out, the plastic components of the Spedo are a colossal let down with the build quality of a twenty year old Rover and in the case of the ATC plastic panelling, the usefulness of a chocolate heatsink.

We’ve spent the last few days with the Spedo, photographing and building our test system into the case, and the list of parts which have broken through general use is embarrassing. The case door handle (multiple times), two of the ATC thermal chamber panels, the drive bay catches (multiple times) and the case trim have all broken, snapped or simply come off in our hands and are prime examples of the poor quality plastic Thermaltake has chosen to adorn the case with. We hate to think how the Spedo would cope with extended use and multiple installs if this is the level of disintegration we’ve encountered in just a few days.

What’s worse is that the Spedo is by no means a budget chassis, currently retailing for over £125! That’s a good £10 more than the comparable Cooler Master HAF932, a case which produces similar cooling and features with much lower noise levels and far, far superior build quality. We might have forgiven the build quality flaws if the case was priced £20 or £30 lower than the competition, but at this price point our criticism is most certainly deserved - you don't expect to pay over £100 for a case that starts to fall to bits before your system is even built.

Underneath all the plastic rubbish and noisy fans though, there is a sound core chassis here. The thermal performance figures are very impressive and the interior is roomy with a couple of very nice little touches especially in regards to the case’s cable management system. Sadly these aren’t enough to compensate for the negatives and despite its solid thermal performance, there are plenty of cheaper and better built alternatives out there that we’d opt for instead of the Spedo.

-Make sure that is a good PSU, I hate people skimping on off-brand PSU's.  I stick only to SeaSonic and Corsair branded SeaSonics at this point.

-Mobo/Cpu/VGA seem great.

-There is a now very prevalent school of thought that says you should pick of two of the HD's and partition them running on pair of partitions in RAID0 for the OS + game installs.  I've had experiences with RAID that I didn't enjoy so meh.

-When I went shopping for a monitor it was a massive hassle and I did about 3 days of solid research all told.  Is 23 = 23" because I thought you couldn't get true widescreen if its under 24"?

-I think in this thread someone posted a good rundown of why buying super quality ram is silly.  I think you can save some money there.

-Where is the aftermarket cpu cooler?  Or are you skipping that?

[Salamok]

I haven't followed the new AMD cpu's but is there a reason you didn't go for a triplet of matched ram? 

[Trippy]

I just went yesterday to preorder my new beast, but I can still make a few changes if needed.
Would you give me an opinion?

- Case: Thermaltake Spedo Tower Black - €202
- PSU: ATX 1100w Cooler Master 80plus Bronze Quad - €206
- Mobo: Asus SkAM3 Crosshair Formula 3 DDR3 - €159
- CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 3.4 Ghz 8mb Black Edition - €163
- RAM: 4x2gb Corsair PC3-12800 1600mhz CL8 - €210
- HD: Western Digital 1tb S-ATA II 3.5 Caviar Black - €82
- Videocard: GeForce GTX295 1,792 GB - €412
- OS: Win 7 Pro - €143
- Monitor: Samsung 23 P2370 50000:1 1000:1 300cd/m2 2ms - €220

Grand total: 1797 euros, which is at today's exhange rates 2662 USD (whoa, what's going on with your money, pals?!)

Comments?

EDIT: Are they robbing me on some components? Are prices so different from US to southern EU?

Why would you spend so much on a GPU and so little on your CPU? A video card is much easier to upgrade than a CPU and your top end AMD CPU has the performance of the mid-range Intel ones. The new i5-750 CPU is actually faster than the X4 965 in many games and it's roughly the same price.

[Falconeer]

Ah, very good one from Trippy. Didn't know.
And cpu fan, I forgot it!

[Mosesandstick]

44.1 dB is over twice as loud as 39.7 dB. As a rule of thumb intensity doubles every 3 dB (i.e. 10^1.3 ~= 20).

According to wiki 30 dB is a very quiet room, 40 dB is very soft conversation.

If I remember correctly our hearing doesn't respond linearly, so twice the intensity wouldn't necessarily be perceived as twice as loud.

[Murgos]

If I remember correctly our hearing doesn't respond linearly, so twice the intensity wouldn't necessarily be perceived as twice as loud.

Yes, you are right.  I misspoke in the first sentence but I was trying to explain that concept with the examples of what corresponds to the difference from 30 dB to 40dB in the example.

There is a lot more going on though, some sounds just sound 'louder' than others even at similar pressure levels.

Mostly, my point was just that any change over 3 dB would be quite noticeable so that you shouldn't get the fan on the bottom of that list.

[Mosesandstick]

True that!

Is 4 GB of RAM really sufficient? What if I add more later? Turns out things in the UK are a lot more expensive than the US... 

[Kageh]

@Falconeer:

Prices seem okay for me, EU-wise. Austria has comparable prices. Some of the sizing is questionable though:

Case is too costly for the quality. When you spend €200 on a case, go for top of the line. That means Lian Li/Lancool/Silverstone. If you want CM, check out 690, HAF 922/HAF 932.

1100W PSU is something you buy for quad SLI. I am running SLI GTX 260s (which should burn more power than a 295) with an overclocked i7 on a 650W PSU, and I'd guess 600 would be okay for that. A rough calculation for your build would put me somewhere at 500W tops, although you have to check out the amperage on the 12V rails. However, a 650W solid PSU vs. a 1100W equals about €100 savings.

I second Trippy's point about i5/i7 vs. AMD Phenom II, although I'd say the performance difference is not *that* high - but it still is noticeable. Also, if you really want AMD, X4 965 BE hasn't the best value for money ratio (High-end AMD I'd go for X4 955 BE, runs less hot, draws less power, no noticeable performance difference). And at this price, you definitely should consider i5 too.

Do you plan to overclock? The black editions have unlocked multipliers, that's why they label them extra. If you don't need to overclock or don't fear fiddling around with base clock speeds, you can buy a "non-BE" cheaper Phenom II too.

For RAM, you should be able to get DDR3-1333 for a lot less than your current choice, and you won't notice a big difference. CL8 at that speed is probably a price driver too, if there's CL9 available for less get CL9, you won't see any gaming performance difference. Does the board even support DD3 at that speed? Many DD3 boards are only certified up to 1333 MHz, and once past that you're SOL if the memory is incompatible.

Generally speaking, 4GB RAM is probably enough if you don't plan to do stuff like editing huge video files and the like. 8GB is cool to have, but not necessary for a gaming rig. If you save another €100 there, I'd keep the money and buy more RAM, should you need it, when the prices go down again. DDR3 pricing is really at an all-time high currently. They can only go down from here. Heck, I bought 6GB DD3-1600 for €60 in July, I feel I should've stocked up to 12 back then ;-).

[AutomaticZen]

True that!

Is 4 GB of RAM really sufficient? What if I add more later? Turns out things in the UK are a lot more expensive than the US... 

4 GBs is fine.  I prefer 6, but it's becoming rather difficult to get that in Dual Channel, as manufacturers seem to be dislike making 2x2GB and 2X1GB in matching sets and timings.

My current planned build (there's a Microcenter in my area):

Core i5 750:  $150
Gigabyte P55-UD3R:  $140
G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3 1600:  $81
Samsung Spinpoint 1TB 7200 RPM:  $85
Corsair 750W Power Supply:  $110
Antec 300: $50

Thoughts going into this:  The 750 will be good enough for gaming and while I never use SLI, that was the bottom-rung board I could find with the best layout and reviews.   Memory prices have flattened, so the price difference between 1066, 1333, 1600 is only a few dollars, hence the 1600 set.  Pondering two sets, as I prefer to have 6 GBs, but I can't find a matching 2x1GB set.  The hard drive joins the other two I have, 250 GB system drive (OS, documents, and programs only) and 500 GB Media Drive.  On the power supply, I've be fine with the 650, but the 550, 650, 750 are all teh same price on NewEgg right now.  The case is solid, with the power supply on the bottom.  (a preference of mine) 

$616 total, with another $200 budgeted for a video card and $50 for DVD drive.  The drive will probably be about half the budgeted price, and I'm holding off to see NVidia's GT300 series before I pull the trigger on a card.  A GT260 will outperform my current card (8800 GT), but I'm looking for something DX11 that I won't need to touch for a good three years.

Already have two 22" monitors.

[Salamok]

4 GBs is fine.  I prefer 6, but it's becoming rather difficult to get that in Dual Channel, as manufacturers seem to be dislike making 2x2GB and 2X1GB in matching sets and timings.

This was my point before, if you are building a new system with ddr3 you should be using triple channel which is really easy to get in a 6gb configuration (3x2gb).

[Trippy]

Only LGA 1366 motherboards (aka Bloomfield CPUs) support triple channel memory. I.e. DDR3 != triple channel.

[AutomaticZen]

4 GBs is fine.  I prefer 6, but it's becoming rather difficult to get that in Dual Channel, as manufacturers seem to be dislike making 2x2GB and 2X1GB in matching sets and timings.

This was my point before, if you are building a new system with ddr3 you should be using triple channel which is really easy to get in a 6gb configuration (3x2gb).

As Trippy said only the Core i7 1366 socket boards support Triple Channel memory, and that's more for severe enthusiasts.  Sticking with i5 or even a lower-rung i7 means 1156 socket, which is Dual Channel, like it's brethren before it.  And for some reason, memory makers are reticent to make 2x2GB and 2x1GB sets that have matching voltage and memory timings.  If anyone knows of any DDR3 1066/1333/1600 that fits the bil, let me know.

[Falconeer]

Thanks everyone who contributed to my pc. I switched to the Intel i5 and I am looking into a better cabinet. I love the smell of a new PC in the morning.