Blizzard's Community Relations

[Phred]

That's a much better solution than the level 13 nonsense.

Blizzard bending over backward not to piss off customers who are still in the can cancel window. Go figure.

[Selby]

That's a much better solution than the level 13 nonsense.

Makes you wonder what brain child thought that was a good idea AND approved it for prime time without even conceiving that people might you know, be angry with it.

[Margalis]

Adding a respec to it means you might as well just remove it for all the impact it has... so they did. I can't fault that decision at all.

No, adding a respec means it's another independent vector of character customization with little to no downside.

[Typhon]

Adding a limited number of respecs means that you end up with an X-type class when you're finished with that champion, leaving room for playing through again as another type in the same class.  It also puts more pressure on the developer to make skills competitive.

Adding unlimited respecs means you play through each class once, and the developer can say (to themselves), "well, this spec can clear this level, so the player just needs to adjust".

I thought I was more of a fan of unlimited respecs, but as it turns out, I like the limited number of respecs more.

[Paelos]

That's a much better solution than the level 13 nonsense.

Makes you wonder what brain child thought that was a good idea AND approved it for prime time without even conceiving that people might you know, be angry with it.

My guess is they didn't think. They just made a kneejerk reaction and it was the wrong one. However, I know several people including myself who made sure to remind them via several communications that it was not the way to handle their business. I'm glad they listened to that, even though we weren't the ones directly affected.

[Rendakor]

Adding a limited number of respecs means that you end up with an X-type class when you're finished with that champion, leaving room for playing through again as another type in the same class.  It also puts more pressure on the developer to make skills competitive.

Adding unlimited respecs means you play through each class once, and the developer can say (to themselves), "well, this spec can clear this level, so the player just needs to adjust".

I thought I was more of a fan of unlimited respecs, but as it turns out, I like the limited number of respecs more.

There's also a whole spectrum of options between "respec whenever you want" and "only respec 3 times ever". I'd say the best solution would be a small number of free respecs (say, 1 every 20 levels or once per difficulty level) and a rare drop you can farm for additional respecs.

[Malakili]

and a rare drop you can farm for additional respecs.

This worked so well in Hellgate: London 

[waffel]

There's also a whole spectrum of options between "respec whenever you want" and "only respec 3 times ever". I'd say the best solution would be a small number of free respecs (say, 1 every 20 levels or once per difficulty level) and a rare drop you can farm for additional respecs.

D3's system would have allowed for it nicely, I think. 1 respec after finishing Normal, Nightmare, Hell, and Inferno. Then add a rare drop off Inferno act bosses that combined to a respec just like in D2. Or add a respec purchasable from a merchant for a flat rate (a few million) It would be another gold sink, also, which the game could use.

Or hell, have the 4 rare items require a fuser from a merchant. That way you have a flat gold sink + allow players to trade the rare respec items on the AH.

And as another wrinkle: set it up so you could still change whatever rune your skill has or its placement on your hotbar. You just couldn't select other skills without a respec. So many interesting ideas other than "free respecs whenever you want!"

[Ingmar]

That sounds awful to me. I want free respecs whenever I want.

[Lantyssa]

Argh.  Respecs are a red herring.  The discussion only came about AGAIN because of some insistence that you can't do the D2 skill and attribute system if there are respecs available.

It's okay to improve on an existing system.  It's not necessary to throw out the baby Diablo with the holy bath water.

[Malakili]

Argh.  Respecs are a red herring.  The discussion only came about AGAIN because of some insistence that you can't do the D2 skill and attribute system if there are respecs available.

It's okay to improve on an existing system.  It's not necessary to throw out the baby Diablo with the holy bath water.

I actually disagree.  Sure, maybe some limited amount circumvents the "oh I misplaced a point/accidentally gimped myself, etc etc" but I really think it is being tied in to some degree that people liked about the skills in Diablo 2, at least from the  "identity" argument people are making.  I think the skill tree thing is kind of pointless these days. 

You had exactly one option - any skill you wanted to use regularly, you maxed out (with the exception of a few skills that you put exactly 1 point into because they want they got better wasn't useful).  Other than that prereqs got exactly 1 and everything else 0.  The "decisions" thing about where to put a point each time you leveled up was totally absent if you knew what you were doing.

This isn't just speculation, Median XL added free respecs and characters lost all their identity as far as I was concerned.  The difference being that I don't really care anymore. 

[Phred]

Argh.  Respecs are a red herring.  The discussion only came about AGAIN because of some insistence that you can't do the D2 skill and attribute system if there are respecs available.

Actually the argument came about because you can't have an identity if you have  respecs.

[Ingmar]

Argh.  Respecs are a red herring.  The discussion only came about AGAIN because of some insistence that you can't do the D2 skill and attribute system if there are respecs available.

It's okay to improve on an existing system.  It's not necessary to throw out the baby Diablo with the holy bath water.

Throwing out the attribute system was good. The only thing the attribute system did was test you to see if you knew the exact amount of stats you needed to wear the best gear in the game.

[waffel]

Argh.  Respecs are a red herring.  The discussion only came about AGAIN because of some insistence that you can't do the D2 skill and attribute system if there are respecs available.

Actually the argument came about because you can't have an identity if you have  respecs.

Nobody seems to care about this anymore.  No real point in arguing it anymore because the same old response of "Well, I like free respecs at any time because... well because one time in Diablo 2 I put too many points into firebolt and I personally feel my character was completely ruined even though it wasn't"

The only thing the attribute system did was test you to see if you knew the exact amount of stats you needed to wear the best gear in the game.

and if you somehow screwed it up you could always put charms in your inventory, or socket items with stat boosting gems, or equip other items that were powerful in the stat you needed.

[Ingmar]

No, you needed all your inventory slots to have magic find charms. 

The point is, it really added nothing to the game. It wasn't 'customizing' your character in any kind of meaningful way.

[Rokal]

Throwing out the attribute system was good. The only thing the attribute system did was test you to see if you knew the exact amount of stats you needed to wear the best gear in the game.

What I miss from the attribute system is the second loot-high it gave you. You'd feel awesome when you found a powerful new item and then you'd feel awesome again when you reached the level/stat requirement to wear it. It built some anticipation up for the loot which was nice.

They could have mirrored this pretty easily by having higher level gear drop sooner. Rather then having lvl 10 items drop frequently when you're level 20, they could have had you finding items that were 17-23. Maybe you'd find a really awesome level 21 item and it would inspire you to get another level before calling it a night. That can be pretty addictive.

[Llyse]

What I miss from the attribute system is the second loot-high it gave you. You'd feel awesome when you found a powerful new item and then you'd feel awesome again when you reached the level/stat requirement to wear it. It built some anticipation up for the loot which was nice.

They could have mirrored this pretty easily by having higher level gear drop sooner. Rather then having lvl 10 items drop frequently when you're level 20, they could have had you finding items that were 17-23. Maybe you'd find a really awesome level 21 item and it would inspire you to get another level before calling it a night. That can be pretty addictive.

This. They were too conservative with ilevels which was completely negated by the AH availability.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

It's particularly mind-boggling given that they have so clearly designed the (itemization) game around 'everyone gets to level 60 and then the Real Loot starts' -- given that, why not make the levelling-up and first-time-play experience like 1000% more fun by tuning the game to provide more supra-level drops?

[Typhon]

No, you needed all your inventory slots to have magic find charms. 

The point is, it really added nothing to the game. It wasn't 'customizing' your character in any kind of meaningful way.

Disagree.  I loved how everything was random in D1, including skills (but I understood why that would annoy some folks).  Maximum re-playability.

Still enjoyed multiple playthroughs in D2 because you'd get an awesome legendary on one playthrough that you hand-me-down to the next char, and on the next char you would allocate stats and skills to optimize for that type of weapon.  I found it fun, and it was definitely meaningful.

Free respecs don't have to kill playability in D3 (but they have to add content, and we know how fast and easy that is to add), but they definitely kill re-playability.

[Rendakor]

I'm with Typhon; I played every class through normal in D2 at least two or three times because it was fun rollong a new one if you found a badass low level unique or wanted to try a new skill build. I'll never do that in D3 which means I'll get less playtime from it.

[Lantyssa]

I have to agree on both points.  D1 was a ton of fun to find books and shrines randomly.

[Margalis]

Fundamentally Diablo was a loot collecting gain that was addictive on the principle of random rewards awarded at random intervals. That by itself is a powerful psychological hook. But it also implies some neat gameplay things - often times having to be creative and work within constraints is more fun than having carte blanche. Random drops can encourage you to try a play style you wouldn't otherwise have tried.

Diablo 3 is a game where you farm with a fixed expected value of gold return per minute played, then use that gold to buy whatever you want. Instead of random reward at random interval it's essentially a fixed, regular, completely unsexy income, and being able to buy whatever you want means never being prodded to explore anything than exactly what you choose.

It's pretty fundamental psychology. I suspect Blizzard vastly over-estimated the number and importance of people who played Diablo 1 and 2 with enough organized trading that those games also became income collecting games.

A similar thing happened with the Earth Defense Force series. The game was based on random drops, then the US made version switched to enemies dropping cash and buying/upgrading in the shop. It's just not the same. The thrill and forced inventiveness were both removed.

[Kageru]

Good point.

Respecs in a game where the content is continually being expanded (MMO's) and when the class is majorly re-balanced. Not so much if you want the player base to be playing the same content for years, especially if you find gear in one play-through that would be excellent for some specialized variant. You want to encourage people to be re-rolling new characters even if they have a high level "grind" optimised character.

Heck, I played a minion-less poison dagger necromancer in D2. He sort of sucked, needed very specialized gear and had a really odd gameplay. That just means the roof of how far I could take it was lower but it was still fun seeing how far I could take the build. And certainly didn't see many other people doing the same.

[Flinky]

Good point.

Respecs in a game where the content is continually being expanded (MMO's) and when the class is majorly re-balanced. Not so much if you want the player base to be playing the same content for years, especially if you find gear in one play-through that would be excellent for some specialized variant. You want to encourage people to be re-rolling new characters even if they have a high level "grind" optimised character.

Heck, I played a minion-less poison dagger necromancer in D2. He sort of sucked, needed very specialized gear and had a really odd gameplay. That just means the roof of how far I could take it was lower but it was still fun seeing how far I could take the build. And certainly didn't see many other people doing the same.

It makes me wonder how different a feel the game would have had if Blizzard kept their original random drop design for runes.

Also, I  Teethomancers.

[Paelos]

Breaking the holiday weekend silence to do a PR release about a D3 book probably could have been left alone on the forums.

Oh and nuking the comments from orbit on the forums is getting out of hand. I think the thread made it 4 pages in the story forum before they locked it and deleted all the comments that weren't "THIS BOOK IS GREAT BUYZ IT!"

[Ingmar]

Deleting off-topic stuff in a non-general forum is good moderation. Now if they're deleting legitimate posts criticizing the book itself (which I am sure is horrible) that's another matter.

[Paelos]

Deleting off-topic stuff in a non-general forum is good moderation. Now if they're deleting legitimate posts criticizing the book itself (which I am sure is horrible) that's another matter.

Take a look at the post itself. It's hard for me to believe that every single thing was off topic except the posts that were positive.

That one thread looks like it's been A-bombed. Just look at the missing #s on the post counts each page.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5979090893#1

[Ingmar]

It's possible - the general forum people often stampede blue posts with off topic <current gripe here> and the story forum people have really terrible taste.

[Lantyssa]

<insert joke about them enjoying the D3 story here>

[Phred]

It makes me wonder how different a feel the game would have had if Blizzard kept their original random drop design for runes.

With an auction house? Not much everyone would have every rune soon anyway unless they were insanely rare.

[Ironwood]

Indeed.  The AH is the biggest thing to consider;  the impact it has on the whole game and how you would design the whole game, is monstrous.

[Paelos]

New hulabaloo today: Magic Find Gear Swapping, and how to stop it!

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6583302/Magic_Find_Gear_Swapping-7_3_2012

[Malakili]

New hulabaloo today: Magic Find Gear Swapping, and how to stop it!

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6583302/Magic_Find_Gear_Swapping-7_3_2012

"Let us know what you think"

I think you don't need to keep tinkering with shit like this.

[Typhon]

I tried to login to reply, "cap it!   ... and put a little thought into why your All Resist implementation is stupid while you're at it", but couldn't because:

"This account has limited posting access due to the following condition:
                        
                              
      This game license has expired or been cancelled."

henh?  oh whatever, I didn't want to post that badly anyway.

[Abelian75]

I think you don't need to keep tinkering with shit like this.

I dunno man, I think it would be a pretty big improvement to fix that stupidity.  Not only does it remove a silly mechanic, it also makes you actually have to think about what gear you want to equip, which is sort of one of the things that is missing right now, imho.

Edit:  Option 5 is so hilariously bad I'm surprised they even bothered to mention it.

Personally I'd go with 2 (the slow changing one).  I don't think the biggest problem is that gear-swapping is beneficial, but rather that magic find on your "real" gear isn't very important.  I don't think it's a big deal if people swap gear to get a couple extra %, but I do think it's a big deal if your "real" gear doesn't benefit from magic find.