Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[eldaec]

Who would have thought in season one, that the ultimate evil, the terror the realm unites again, is an border-line alcoholic with a reputation of being a shitty schemer. (Again, I am not defending her, I like her because her faults).

Thing is, she doesn't seem very credible in that role even now. When it was 'she might screw you over as a result and the others could kill us all' I got that. But our heroes just beat the night king and if Cersei is on her own as the final boss... it doesn't sound impressive.

Also Cersei, not borderline. She has had a drink in hand practically every scene she's has outside of prison for two and a half books now.

[HaemishM]

The purpose baiting the Night King to the Godswood with Bran was that Dany and Jon wouldn't really join the battle until he revealed himself in the Godswood, then they would roast him with dragon fire (which wouldn't have worked we know now, but they didn't know that). Dany lost her nerve when she saw the Dothraki decimated and went into the battle prematurely with Jon following in his typical Jon way (this is what the actual show runners said).

Strategically, the use of the Dothraki was super dumb - yes, they are better fighters on horseback so you would expect them to be used to charge. But you either use horsemen like that 1 of 2 ways - as skirmishers to inflict attrition and disruption of formations (if they had bows or ranged weapons) or you use them in a charge, preferably in a flank or rear attack on an already engaged line in order to destroy the enemy's morale. The only problem is that the army isn't really much subject to attrition that matters, it has no morale to weaken or destroy, nor does it rely on tight, structured formations. It is a literal wave of bodies that gets stronger the more enemy it kills and it will never break without losing its animating force, i.e. the Night King. The Dothraki were kind of the worst army to use against it in any capacity because none of the weaknesses it can attack exist in an undead army.

But goddamn did that charge look cool with the fiery catapult rounds flying overhead like meteors.

[Khaldun]

So I think I've fully processed why this isn't a satisfying end to the NK/Dead storyline. It's not Arya: that was great. If it was going to be a one-shot, having her do it is something the series has fully built up to in a very good way. But the thing is: the menace of the Dead has been a major, maybe the major, driver of one major portion of the overall narrative. ALL of the Night's Watch content was about it, and that's a lot of storyline. Meanwhile, the "fire" thematic has also used up a lot of real estate.

For that to end with one stab seems to make most of that thematic unworthy of the time spent on it.

Unless.

Unless the next episode catalyzes it. If the characters just walk away saying, "Phew, that was a close one", it was pointless. But if they say, "The Dead very nearly overran the living, and that's because the Seven Kingdoms have been paralyzed by pointless civil war but even before that, because the vanity of monarchs and lords led to the slow stripping of support from the Night's Watch, because we forgot our own histories, because the madness of kings and the greed of nobles made us all weak. We came together here and survived: now we go to break the wheel and make a completely new society". Ok! That would make the whole thematic pay off--it is the narrow escape from never-ending winter and death that convinces everyone to join a new crusade, to put aside all the vanity of power-seeking that dramatizes the need for change.

If next week is just "back to the Game of Thrones, who will sit on the Iron Throne", then it really was kind of a waste.

[schild]

charge was dope

existed to be dope

got rid of 2 armies that were barely part of the story and one army that spent 8 seasons building only to be stabbed out by arya

i think we can all admit they trivialized the horror to a degree no one could have expected

[HaemishM]

Unless the next episode catalyzes it. If the characters just walk away saying, "Phew, that was a close one", it was pointless. But if they say, "The Dead very nearly overran the living, and that's because the Seven Kingdoms have been paralyzed by pointless civil war but even before that, because the vanity of monarchs and lords led to the slow stripping of support from the Night's Watch, because we forgot our own histories, because the madness of kings and the greed of nobles made us all weak. We came together here and survived: now we go to break the wheel and make a completely new society". Ok! That would make the whole thematic pay off--it is the narrow escape from never-ending winter and death that convinces everyone to join a new crusade, to put aside all the vanity of power-seeking that dramatizes the need for change.

I'm expecting that's where it ends, but not until Jon and Dany kill each other and their dragons.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Strategically, the use of the Dothraki was super dumb - yes, they are better fighters on horseback so you would expect them to be used to charge. But you either use horsemen like that 1 of 2 ways - as skirmishers to inflict attrition and disruption of formations (if they had bows or ranged weapons) or you use them in a charge, preferably in a flank or rear attack on an already engaged line in order to destroy the enemy's morale. The only problem is that the army isn't really much subject to attrition that matters, it has no morale to weaken or destroy, nor does it rely on tight, structured formations. It is a literal wave of bodies that gets stronger the more enemy it kills and it will never break without losing its animating force, i.e. the Night King. The Dothraki were kind of the worst army to use against it in any capacity because none of the weaknesses it can attack exist in an undead army.

But goddamn did that charge look cool with the fiery catapult rounds flying overhead like meteors.

From what I remember, in the books the Dothraki are much more badass, elite horse archers - full mongol style, the kind that obliterated European and Asian armies of all flavours in the medieval ages.  In the TV show they are portrayed as more of a mindless barbarian rabble. Those book Dothraki would have still been very useful dismounted as archers and then full capable of hand to hand fighting when it came to that (they had knight-level combat training, being immersed in war from a young age). You really can't expect anything beyond lame hollywood bs at this point, then you won't be disappointed.

[Threash]

Strategically, the use of the Dothraki was super dumb - yes, they are better fighters on horseback so you would expect them to be used to charge. But you either use horsemen like that 1 of 2 ways - as skirmishers to inflict attrition and disruption of formations (if they had bows or ranged weapons) or you use them in a charge, preferably in a flank or rear attack on an already engaged line in order to destroy the enemy's morale. The only problem is that the army isn't really much subject to attrition that matters, it has no morale to weaken or destroy, nor does it rely on tight, structured formations. It is a literal wave of bodies that gets stronger the more enemy it kills and it will never break without losing its animating force, i.e. the Night King. The Dothraki were kind of the worst army to use against it in any capacity because none of the weaknesses it can attack exist in an undead army.

But goddamn did that charge look cool with the fiery catapult rounds flying overhead like meteors.

From what I remember, in the books the Dothraki are much more badass, elite horse archers - full mongol style, the kind that obliterated European and Asian armies of all flavours in the medieval ages.  In the TV show they are portrayed as more of a mindless barbarian rabble. Those book Dothraki would have still been very useful dismounted as archers and then full capable of hand to hand fighting when it came to that (they had knight-level combat training, being immersed in war from a young age). You really can't expect anything beyond lame hollywood bs at this point, then you won't be disappointed.

Seriously, actually putting archers on their fucking wall would have been a huge improvement over anything they did.

[HaemishM]

They had archers on the walls. 

[Samwise]

There was room for a lot more than they had up there.  Also, I believe the fact that their siege engines could have been kept inside the walls has been adequately covered.

Shame Jaime couldn't bring that anti-aircraft gun up from King's Landing so they could fit it with dragonglass bolts and conceal it in the godswood as part of their cunning trap that didn't actually exist.

[Threash]

They had archers on the walls. 

A tiny amount.

[schild]

like 13, tops

[MediumHigh]

Talking about the battle at work and my general argument is that the Living was going to lose. Impossible for them not to lose. But there is a way that they lost which makes these types of conflicts interesting and memorable rather than pure mindless spectacle. The difference between the battle of helms deep and a transformers movie. There was several things that could have been done to make it look like the Living side did the best they could which would have made their loss more tragic and less comical.

[Phildo]

The show hasn't had much in the way of tactics since they left the books behind anyway.  It's just been about spectacle, armies charging straight into each other and something coming out of left field (surprise cavalry charge from new army, teleporting Arya, etc)  to win it for the good guys.

[MediumHigh]

That's probably why the battle of the black water is the best battle scene in game of thrones.

[Threash]

I can forgive the Dothraki charge at least. Because A) having horses do lots of stuff would have probably ate up way more of the budget that was worth investing in them B) those fuckers are not heroes, they don't deserve a heroic "charge of the Rohirrim" type scene, they are just a bunch of assholes that Dany had to basically force to follow her by strength alone and C) the flaming charge and the lights slowly going out really was pretty fucking cool.

[calapine]

Charge: Not a big deal, but since Ironwood brought it up. I agree it looked dumb. Charge in the side when they are engaged with the unsullied phalanx. Or at least near your other forces.

Even if you didn't expect them to be extinguished like a candle in the wind (reminded me of Princess Di's Dothraki charge against the White Tunnel Pillar):

Everyone was super scared oft the White Walkers, so they obviously didn't expect the Dothraki to win, so why send them alone in. Best case they take out a lot in the first impact, then get bogged down in the mass of undead and need to hack they way out and maybe 50% come back.

[calapine]

Unless the next episode catalyzes it. If the characters just walk away saying, "Phew, that was a close one", it was pointless. But if they say, "The Dead very nearly overran the living, and that's because the Seven Kingdoms have been paralyzed by pointless civil war but even before that, because the vanity of monarchs and lords led to the slow stripping of support from the Night's Watch, because we forgot our own histories, because the madness of kings and the greed of nobles made us all weak. We came together here and survived: now we go to break the wheel and make a completely new society". Ok! That would make the whole thematic pay off--it is the narrow escape from never-ending winter and death that convinces everyone to join a new crusade, to put aside all the vanity of power-seeking that dramatizes the need for change.

If next week is just "back to the Game of Thrones, who will sit on the Iron Throne", then it really was kind of a waste.

I don't disagree really, but on the other hand, the "break the wheel" narrative has been hinted on so often by now that it sort of feels like the default ending by now. On the other other hand I can't come up with a really good conclusion either.

[calapine]

So I think I've fully processed why this isn't a satisfying end to the NK/Dead storyline. It's not Arya: that was great. If it was going to be a one-shot, having her do it is something the series has fully built up to in a very good way. But the thing is: the menace of the Dead has been a major, maybe the major, driver of one major portion of the overall narrative. ALL of the Night's Watch content was about it, and that's a lot of storyline. Meanwhile, the "fire" thematic has also used up a lot of real estate.

I mentioned that before, but that was the opinion on Reddit why this couldn't/shouldn't happen: "You can't tease us so much about the exeistinal thread and then stab-nightkind-all-dead-dead"

Hah, I betting some hard core fans wondering "Who is the night king? What was his plan? What was his relationship with the wider universe (the seasons, the endless nights) are pretty annoyed now.

[Samwise]

Apparently we're getting a prequel series that will explain it.   

[Miguel]

My take was that the Winterfell leaders all basically decided that they had to lose in order to win:  the Night King wasn't going to put himself at risk until the castle looked like it fell.  That's why he hung around in mid-air unseen the entire first half of the fight.  If the Dothraki charged and managed to slaughter the undead army then there wouldn't have been any reason for him to make an appearance at all.  His plan all along would be to re-raise everyone that had been killed until only Bran was left, whom he wanted to kill himself (for reasons?).

[Khaldun]

Just on the "we have archers on the walls" thing, they fucking didn't. Witness everybody's mad scramble for the walls on a retreat. Dothraki would have been way better on that. Fuck, stuffing the courtyard and every available room with Dothraki would have been better. Just send the horses out with molotov cocktails attached to the side or something if you want a starting strike.

[Abagadro]

They had archers on the walls. They tried to light the trench with flaming arrows. Arya picked off a deadite as he was going to hit The Hound with an arrow from the wall. There is also a specific scene once the dead get past the trench where they swap out the archers for melee people when the dead start to scale the walls.

[Threash]

We know they had archers up there, a tiny amount.

[Abagadro]

Well the part of the army that would have archers (northerners and wildlings) have been pretty beat up even prior to this battle.  Gotta roll with the forces you have.

[Riggswolfe]

The more I think about how this episode went the more I'm convinced of two things.

1) The Night King was never meant to be the big bad. It actually makes a lot of sense. GRRM was never interested in a black and white good vs evil story and that's what the Night King is. I think his sole purpose narratively was to weaken Dany's army and force the North and Dany to work together.

2) The notes GRRM gave the show runners are much more vague than I originally thought. They came up with Arya killing the Night King on their own which tells me the notes are probably something like "The Night King dies at Winterfell.  They kill Cersie somehow. So-and-so ends up on the Throne." Which doesn't surprise me because I don't think GRRM himself really knows exactly how he is going to end things.

[Cyrrex]

The title "Game of Thrones" has always sort of implied that it was always going to be about the iron throne, and that the Night King is just a prop device that massively stirs the pot.  Unless we are supposed to believe it has always been about a fight for the throne between perhaps the Night King and the Red God, but that seems a stretch.  Or we can look at Martin's title "Song of Ice and Fire".  Which is Dany and Jon.  Or at a stretch, the Night King and the Red God. 

I think it is ultimately about Dany and Jon, everything indicates so.  That doesn't mean either of them end up on the throne.  I guess I don't understand why anyone is upset that there is more to come and it didn't end with the Night King.  I am far more interested in what happens next.  What will Bronn do.  What will Jaime do.  What happens to the Hound and the Mountain.  What will Sansa do.  How will the situation between Dany and Jon resolve.  These are all more interesting questions than what would happen with Bran and the Night King.

[Teleku]

The more I think about how this episode went the more I'm convinced of two things.

1) The Night King was never meant to be the big bad. It actually makes a lot of sense. GRRM was never interested in a black and white good vs evil story and that's what the Night King is. I think his sole purpose narratively was to weaken Dany's army and force the North and Dany to work together.

2) The notes GRRM gave the show runners are much more vague than I originally thought. They came up with Arya killing the Night King on their own which tells me the notes are probably something like "The Night King dies at Winterfell.  They kill Cersie somehow. So-and-so ends up on the Throne." Which doesn't surprise me because I don't think GRRM himself really knows exactly how he is going to end things.

Problem with all this talk is that the books aren't supporting any of it right now.  I seriously think almost all of this was made up by the TV series since they found Martins notes either to vague or decided they just couldn't follow the plot with how many seasons they had left.

There is no Nights King in the book, but maybe he'll be introduced in the Winds of Winter.  But based on fairy tales about him, he came about long after the Walkers appeared and would just be another one of them.  I'm honestly not sure they will introduce the "kill a walker and the zombies die" mechanic.  I don't think that exists in the books at all yet from the few they've killed.  Killing the Nights King with one Lucky stab wont make them all die, and I got the feeling that as with most things in the books, the origins and motivations of the Walkers is going to be a lot more complex.  Not necessarily straight on one sided evil bad guys.  Hell, maybe the Children had nothing to do with their creation, since in current lore, the Others first appeared thousands of years after the war between the First Men and Children ended.  That could be just a TV thing as well for all we know.  There is a lot of speculation that a bargain was made between them, and failure on the human/children side to honor the bargain may be causing all this.

And now, in the books, we have an entire army that's successfully landed and taking control of the Stormlands, lead by the actual true heir to the Iron Thone, Aegon (not Dany).  He might be a fake, or maybe they'll have it fail, but I'd love for it to all be true.  Dany has spent the entire series being built up for her grand return to take the Throne, and it turning out her relative with a better claim beats her to it, would be amazing.  In contrast to the TV series, as this army is now threatening Kings Landing, at the same time is where Meeren has gone to shit and Dany just got dropped off out in the grasslands by her Dragon.  Even if they copy what she did in the TV series, she's not getting over to effect current events for many months, if not over a year, book time.  And I don't think things are going to play out the same way anyways (especially if Aegon does take the throne).  Also as this army is marching, Cersei is awaiting her trial, and the Tyrells are keeping their entire army close and not sending them off towards the threat till their daughter is cleared and released.  If Cersei blows up the fucking sept at this time, she's going to make a ton of lords switch sides to this new true heir leading the golden company.  Not to mention Dorne still ready to take its completely fresh army up to support.

Or in short, shits about to turn into another cluster fuck in the south where everyside kills each other, weakening them more.  Remember, the name of the series is A Song of Ice and Fire.  Game of Thrones is just the title of the first book where everybody is playing a game and positioning, and then open war breaks out in the second book.  I still think the fight between Ice and Fire is the more important focus of the story, and not who gets the Iron Throne.
  

[eldaec]

The long night is the big bad in the books. Not the night king specifically.

But the TV guys have made a decision (probably) that the long night is not the big bad on TV.

I mean, we might start the next episode and everyone is all like 'cool, dead king but it is still eternal winter and the wall fell down'. I doubt it, but possible.

Seems likely that the show has decided the war of the roses is the main event, not global warming. Cool. I'm cool with this. Seems more likely the last 3 episodes will be more watchable if they scale back the literary ambition. Also makes the show feel more like its own separate thing rather than the bad fan fiction of most of s5, 6 and 7.



As for the books, my guess is GRRM knows exactly how he wants to end it, but can't figure out the plot to get everyone where they need to be.

[Selby]

When you sell your book rights to guys who do TV/movies and you’ve yet to finish the series (much less write a new book in almost a decade) you sort of lose the ability to be the one driving the story anymore. I have no idea what Martin actually intends to be the end of the books but considering he still hasn’t finished them and the TV show has reached the end (with or without whatever notes he may or may not have provided) the TV show is the one everyone except some book fans will remember and go by. It’s nice to go back and forth about what is or is not intended, but considering Martin will likely die before finishing the series, it’s likely that the TV show resolution is what will be considered accurate.

[Cyrrex]

As I probably said a hundred pages ago:

- The books are quite popular, but fairly niche all things considered.
- The TV show is a cultural phenomenon like has never been seen before
- The TV show has generally been the exception to the usual rule, where the show is actually better than the source material

So why anyone still gives a shit about what GRRM intends, is or is not doing....it makes no sense at all.  HBO has made this what it is, not Martin. 

[Riggswolfe]

As I probably said a hundred pages ago:

- The books are quite popular, but fairly niche all things considered.
- The TV show is a cultural phenomenon like has never been seen before
- The TV show has generally been the exception to the usual rule, where the show is actually better than the source material

So why anyone still gives a shit about what GRRM intends, is or is not doing....it makes no sense at all.  HBO has made this what it is, not Martin. 

As much shit as this forum gives the show the last book was almost unreadable. It wasted so much space on entirely new characters. And don't get me started on Griff...

[Teleku]

I was responding more to the hypothetical intent of GRRM and saying that I think a hell of a lot of what we are seeing is just them running with their own thing.  

Also, the series is not better than the source material.  The first four seasons were a great adaptation and improved several aspects of the story, but also cut a number of things I felt would have fleshed out the world better at the expense of just another episode or two worth of time a season.  The best result is something in between, though if they had kept up the same quality of writing through all seasons, I'd probably agree with you.  However, the series has gone on just as bad of a downward spiral from season 5 on as the books did from season 4 on.  I've had fun going along with the ride, but its been meandering fan fiction un-creative writing for 3 seasons now.  Still great entertainment (as there are about 20 other shows of great entertainment active right now), but nothing compared to the quality of the first few seasons.  

With the major threat gone, I have a hard time caring what happens to most of the surviving characters.  Whats left to fight over just feels so minor after the epic battle against the apocalyptic menace that was the White Walkers.  Maybe Bran should get the throne?  He just sits.  He could sit there and maybe get intertwined with it like the Three Eyed Raven was with the tree.  Become one with the Iron Throne, ruling all the kingdoms as an undying and all seeing wizard for eternity.

Edit:  I mostly felt the same way about the last book Riggswolfe, but I've come around on Grif.  Like, if he actually is the prince that was promised and comes out of nowhere to take the throne because Dany was to busy fucking up trying to rule in the east, would be the best subversion of a trope ever.  I actually root for that now.

[Cyrrex]

I personally don't agree with the assertion that it is in a downward spiral.  I thought it was better than the books in the beginning, and also here at the end.  I wonder what the average Joe thinks about that exact point.  Quick view on IMDB would indicate that the recent seasons are just about as popular as the early seasons.  4 of the top 5 episodes are from the last 4 seasons.

[Teleku]

And a quick google shows me that The Big Bang series has been the number one or number two top rated TV network TV series for the last 7 years.  

We all know the average Joe is a moron.  I'm talking realistically about people who care a little more, like on this forum.  Most people paying attention, IMO, would feel the quality of writing has dropped drastically the second half from the first half.  That's not to say the show still isn't fun!  Some great moments have happened in the last few seasons, and the entire series is still better than most things out there.  But the show has such hype now, of course its going to have big ratings no matter what they do.  We are going to watch it no matter what.  It's sort of the Star Wars effect.  I thought Last Jedi was terrible and think the next movie is going to completely suck, but I'll still be there opening night.

[Threash]

There is a huge drop in quality in the show right at the moment they ran out of book stuff. It is such a stark difference that I don't understand how people don't see it.