DCUO- will be out November 2. Can apply for beta on main site now.

[UnSub]

I'm pretty sure that DCUO doesn't have a test server, so the next bit of content - Catwoman's 9 time boss fight and turn your character into a Valentine's cherub - appears that it will go live without being tested.

Good times.

[Lucas]

Harsh Review by Gamespy UK (2/5) :

http://uk.pc.gamespy.com/pc/dc-comics-mmo/1147072p1.html

[Nebu]

Harsh Review by Gamespy UK (2/5) :

http://uk.pc.gamespy.com/pc/dc-comics-mmo/1147072p1.html

I'm having fun with this game but can't argue with the points in this article.  I have leveled both a hero and a villain to 30 and am getting bored quickly.  The quests get very similar after a while.  The combat is very chaotic and difficult to really enjoy some good strategic moments.  The endgame grind got very obvious to me after hitting cap.  I also agree that crappy targetting and the over abundance of CC really causes some frustration.  

I'd say that the game is a fun platformer and well worth 20-30 hrs of fun.  It's really not worth a subscription and barely worth the box cost (to me).  I'd recommend it as a buy when the price drops to $20 with a free month.  

[UnSub]

This is the first time I've seen an SOE forum up close, so it's very interesting to me that criticism threads tend to be locked pretty soon after someone starts to troll, which saves the problem of actually having to answer the issue.

[UnSub]

Looking at these PvP exploit videos, I'd say that some of those complaints are exceptionally valid.

[Morfiend]

What is Frame Canceling they are constantly talking about?

It looks like somehow making a bunch of abilities hit all at once.

[Kageru]

They've announced a time limited offer of 3 months for $30 for those who care.

Which is pretty much them admitting they do expect a lot of people to exhaust the content and unsubscribe 1-2 months after release.

[Abelian75]

What is Frame Canceling they are constantly talking about?

It looks like somehow making a bunch of abilities hit all at once.

Sort of, yeah.  It's a term used in fighting games (or at least "cancel" is, and "hit frame", I don't know what "frame canceling" itself would mean, think that's just kind of a mashup).  Basically in a fighting game you might have a roundhouse kick that hits during frames 15-20, and ordinarily would last until frame 40 (I have just made these numbers up out of thin air, btw), so you end up having 20 "recovery frames."  However, there might be a certain move or set of moves (typically special moves or evasion moves) that can be executed at some point during the recovery period (or maybe even during the hit, or "active" period, like frame 18 perhaps), allowing you to essentially cram more attacks into a tiny period of time.  Also, sometimes the move you cancel into can actually be so quick compared to the move you canceled out of that it may even finish sooner than if you'd let the original attack continue to completion.  If you ever hear someone say "focus cancel" referring to SF4, this is often what they are talking about.  That game has "focus attacks" (which use a limited "focus" resource bar) that you can cancel into from other moves, but you can ALSO cancel out of the focus attack itself almost instantly by quickly double tapping in a direction (to dash that way), and THEN you can cancel out of the dash into a different attack.  Basically, canceling into focus attack and then into dash lands you in a state where you can now attack again, and you got there faster (often much faster) than you would have if you just let the original attack complete.  So you could say, do a kick, cancel into a focus attack, instantly cancel into a dash, and then cancel into a shoryuken or some shit.  It all happens absurdly fast if you watch someone badass who can do that shit reliably.

(Incidentally, if I sound like I'm talking down to you I apologize, probably this is not a new concept, but the technical terms and shit are possibly new)

Anyway, this game allows for something like that.  You can cancel out of your combos with a special attack (and possibly other shit, I'm not sure of the details), except from what I can tell you can cancel them at any time, even before the hit frames.  Yet your attack still lands even if you never see it hit.  Even aside from that obviously broken aspect (which seems fixable at least in the sense that you'd have to hack to do otherwise, though beyond that seems like it'd be hard to stop entirely), it's still a huge part of the game that peeps unfamiliar with fighting games might not think to try.  Certainly from what I could tell, the optimal way to play was to do a four-hit combo (or whatever) that ends with a big windup hit with a long recovery animation, cancel right after the last hit (during the long recovery period) into a special ability, which in most cases lets you use the special AND be free to move/attack again before you would have finished the original recovery animation.  I'm pretty sure that is actually intended behavior, and it has pretty huge implications.  It basically means that, used properly, special attacks (or "powers" or whatever they are called) don't just have no casting time, they have NEGATIVE casting time.  They both do damage and allow you to use MORE punches and kicks and shit than you would be able to use without specials.

[Gunzwei]

I'm pretty sure that DCUO doesn't have a test server, so the next bit of content - Catwoman's 9 time boss fight and turn your character into a Valentine's cherub - appears that it will go live without being tested.

Good times.

Having done both the raids zones currently in the game I'm fairly certain they didn't test much if at all. I found the -WE GOT RAIDZ- promo video pretty hilarious considering the very first raid boss in the game can currently be easily beaten by having the bridge in the corner tank it. It gets really bad when you realize that same boss is probably the 2nd hardest raid boss in the game. The hardest boss can actually "hit" you.

[UnSub]

DCUO had two betas - the friends-and-family-and-employees that morphed into the fans-who-went-to-conventions-for-the-code and the pre-order beta / beta sign-up (although it was mostly pre-order). The pre-order beta was bigger than the F'n'F.

Unless they relaxed it on the last day, the pre-order beta was only ever allowed to get to lvl 20, so couldn't do end-game content. The F'n'F beta had full game access with a lower player population and apparently contained a lot of players who would shout down any criticism. I wasn't in the F'n'F, just the pre-order beta, but I've heard that the end-game raids were only unlocked very late in the testing process before launch. So the Batcave was around, but not in the form you see at launch afaik.

PvP got some very late tweaks, when it was realised things like flagging someone for PvP because their AoE hit an opposing player was a bad idea because it was so easily exploitable. Or locating PvP objectives on the top of highly defensible tall buildings (where you could knock someone out of their travel power, have them fall, require them to get back up to the top, knock them out of it, etc) wasn't fun.

[jakonovski]

DCUO simply cannot withstand hardcore gaming, it's a fun little game that would best work with micropayments.

MMO enthusiasts are like a swarm of locusts that devours everything in their path as fast as possible and then sits on the barren wasteland complaining about lack of content. I can't stand the mindset as it destroys everything I love about gaming, but at the same time game companies can only blame themselves when they try to woo that market and do not deliver content that fits.

[Malakili]

DCUO simply cannot withstand hardcore gaming, it's a fun little game that would best work with micropayments.

MMO enthusiasts are like a swarm of locusts that devours everything in their path as fast as possible and then sits on the barren wasteland complaining about lack of content. I can't stand the mindset as it destroys everything I love about gaming, but at the same time game companies can only blame themselves when they try to woo that market and do not deliver content that fits.

I can understand not liking the complaining, but realistically, what are you supposed to do?  I mean, I guess you could make some generalized argument like "people shouldn't spend so much time gaming that they can complete content so quickly" but at the same time, MMOs are SUPPOSED to be games you can play all the time.

[DLRiley]

Correction subscription mmo's are mmo's you play all the time. The problem here is that people (speaking of hardcore gamers) burn through the content, get bored, unsubscribe. A free game has people (hardcore gamers) burning through the content and then spend money in order to grease their interest in the game.

[ghost]

MMOs are SUPPOSED to be games you can play all the time.

Maybe this perception is part of the problem.  It has obviously proven very difficult to successfully create this kind of game.  I don't view DCUO as the "play all the time" sort of game.  I view it as a "play for a few hours every week to enjoy some of the PvP aspects" type game.  They've missed the mark for this a little by trying to cater to the hardcore crowd with raids and such and they screwed up the reimbursement model with a sub fee.  Still, part of the problem is that gamers expect every game to be superhardcore poopsocky like WoW and they won't have to be to be fun.

[Malakili]

MMOs are SUPPOSED to be games you can play all the time.

Maybe this perception is part of the problem.  It has obviously proven very difficult to successfully create this kind of game.  I don't view DCUO as the "play all the time" sort of game.  I view it as a "play for a few hours every week to enjoy some of the PvP aspects" type game.  They've missed the mark for this a little by trying to cater to the hardcore crowd with raids and such and they screwed up the reimbursement model with a sub fee.  Still, part of the problem is that gamers expect every game to be superhardcore poopsocky like WoW and they won't have to be to be fun.

DLRiley is right.  If you are charging me a subscription I shouldn't feel like the game is meant to be played "a few hours a week"

[jakonovski]

I can understand not liking the complaining, but realistically, what are you supposed to do?  I mean, I guess you could make some generalized argument like "people shouldn't spend so much time gaming that they can complete content so quickly" but at the same time, MMOs are SUPPOSED to be games you can play all the time.

I can think of two ways of creating content that can withstand the assault of MMOists: grind or pvp. If you're not looking for these, you're going to be disappointed.

[DLRiley]

I can understand not liking the complaining, but realistically, what are you supposed to do?  I mean, I guess you could make some generalized argument like "people shouldn't spend so much time gaming that they can complete content so quickly" but at the same time, MMOs are SUPPOSED to be games you can play all the time.

I can think of two ways of creating content that can withstand the assault of MMOists: grind or pvp. If you're not looking for these, you're going to be disappointed.

Can't be grindier than WoW and hope to get business. PVP has yet to remove foot from ass as far as MMo-design is concerned.

[ghost]

DLRiley is right.  If you are charging me a subscription I shouldn't feel like the game is meant to be played "a few hours a week"

Yeah, they didn't get that right at all.  Still, wait 6-12 months and it will probably change.

[stray]

DCUO simply cannot withstand hardcore gaming, it's a fun little game that would best work with micropayments.

MMO enthusiasts are like a swarm of locusts that devours everything in their path as fast as possible and then sits on the barren wasteland complaining about lack of content. I can't stand the mindset as it destroys everything I love about gaming, but at the same time game companies can only blame themselves when they try to woo that market and do not deliver content that fits.

I think it goes without mentioning that these games are probably a lot more impressive a year (or two) in or so anyways. It's rare that any of them come truly fleshed out from the get go. Even in the worst cases, I go in with that understanding.. that an MMO is always evolving. Where I usually criticize them is just the general "feel" on the fundamental feartures, etc.. And DCUO gets my vote on that shit. There's a lot of possibility in it. Not only because of the lore or because I'm a comic book fan, but who ever is behind the combat and whoever is crafting a lot of the content impresses me. They have a good team. As long as it stays in tact, the game will go in interesting directions.

Speaking of world building, last night I found a rabbit hole in the Watchtower, and ended up in space. I can't take any screenshots on the PS3, but I was kind of surprised that the Watchtower is an actual satellite. I could mention the detail in Gotham or something like that, but I thought this was cooler.. A lazy developer probably would have just made the Watchtower a skeletal outline of zones if looked from the outside, but not these guys.. they went all out. 

[UnSub]

DLRiley is right.  If you are charging me a subscription I shouldn't feel like the game is meant to be played "a few hours a week"

Yeah, they didn't get that right at all.  Still, wait 6-12 months and it will probably change.

Which is why the sub fee model is in such trouble. If devs are expecting $15 a month to come through their door per player, it does them no good to see those players not sub after the first month as they all 'wait and see'.

If you can't compete against WoW as it stands right now, you can't charge like WoW as it does right now either. A B2P, DLC and no sub fee would have served DCUO a lot better (and better fit with PS3 player experience).

[Kageru]

Sub-fee model is fine. It works well for a heavy-weight game with a lot of hardware and developer resources to fund. But the days in which you could expect to get that income stream for years for any multi-player online game you released are thankfully passed. Nor will players stay subbed while they enjoy the online community (It's just not novel anymore) and patiently wait for more content.

SOE knows all about free to play. They thought sub-fee was their best bet and that's their call. The wrong call, quite possibly, but one assumes they actually thought about their options.

[stray]

(It's just not novel anymore) and patiently wait for more content.

Actually, I'm a bit surprised how novel it is.. on the PS3 at least. Lots of newbs. And I either know this from hearing them say so in game or on the message boards.. the other thing is that there are a ton of people who seem to not even "get" the concept yet. Like it seems they're naming their characters after their own real full names (granted some of these are just character concepts with "proper" names, but it doesn't seem entirely the case). That or there are a lot of people with names like jedi02484. As if it's just a screen name they'd put anywhere else. Hell, they're not even close to "novel" even. They're just getting their feet wet.

What this has to do with subscription numbers..? Nothing. Just thought it was interesting.

[Lakov_Sanite]

This cycle has happened several times now and people fail to 'get' the reasons.  No it's not the subscription fee, no it's not like of full perma death pvp, no its not the lack of player housing or crafting only classes.

The game is not well done, it's rare, medium at best.  Same with a handfull of other games that came out recently, they are being developed in a shoddy manner and it shows, subscriptions will reflect that.  Frame cancelling in an mmo, seriously? Sure this may have done better as a micro transaction game but that does mean a monthly sub mmo is doomed to fail, it just means no one has made a good enough one yet.

[Khaldun]

I think the thing that's so frustrating is that a better game is plausible. There's no point in talking about MMOs that are purely shoddy.

I think the basic puzzle that a new sub-based MMO, if it's not aiming for a Cryptic-style "box sales + two months subs then FTP and medium-term death" business model, has got to solve at launch is:

a) How to generate new content relatively rapidly, say a 'dungeon' once a month. Given DCUO's relatively simple 'dungeon' content, this is not impossible to imagine. Then on a parallel track, you'd be working on an xpac that was more substantial.
b) How to have some kind of satisfying PvP endgame that will keep people amused, probably on a twitch model rather than a grind model, while content is generated.
or
c) How to have a dynamic, procedurally generated world.

C) is way way harder and probably not appropriate to a licensed property. But if you can't solve the puzzle of a) or b), you really should not launch as sub-based unless this is strictly the Cryptic "take the money and run" strategy. For a MMO where the intellectual property holder plainly would like the MMO to serve as a serious vehicle for promoting their property, that's a bad idea.

[UnsGub]

has got to solve at launch is:

a) How to generate new content relatively rapidly, say a 'dungeon' once a month. Given DCUO's relatively simple 'dungeon' content, this is not impossible to imagine. Then on a parallel track, you'd be working on an xpac that was more substantial.

It has been solved.  Unsure why others cannot repeat it.  Two expanpansions a year and 17 over ten years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest#Expansions

[stray]

This cycle has happened several times now and people fail to 'get' the reasons.  No it's not the subscription fee, no it's not like of full perma death pvp, no its not the lack of player housing or crafting only classes.

The game is not well done, it's rare, medium at best.  Same with a handfull of other games that came out recently, they are being developed in a shoddy manner and it shows, subscriptions will reflect that.  Frame cancelling in an mmo, seriously? Sure this may have done better as a micro transaction game but that does mean a monthly sub mmo is doomed to fail, it just means no one has made a good enough one yet.

Hmm.. I don't think I'd call this shoddy at all. In more abstract ways it is, like with class/pvp/raid issues, but that stuff always gets worked out. I think it's pretty obvious  though that there is some kind of psychotic OCD developer running the actual content and art design areas. I mean, flying around Gotham is more on the side of impressive than anything gives me thought that it's "shoddy".

I'm going to sound like a fanboy, and I don't mean to be, but you guys are a tough crowd. Ridiculously so. What do you want any of these games to be? None of them are going to be WoW killers any time, for sure. So stop talking about and stop expecting it from anywhere. Ironically, people have plenty to bitch about WoW too. Nothing seems to be good enough, whether the game is modest or enormously successful. There's always some problem. I'd just say to have whatever fun you can get out of them and move on. There are so many games around to occupy the void that it's ridiculous.

[Khaldun]

has got to solve at launch is:

a) How to generate new content relatively rapidly, say a 'dungeon' once a month. Given DCUO's relatively simple 'dungeon' content, this is not impossible to imagine. Then on a parallel track, you'd be working on an xpac that was more substantial.

It has been solved.  Unsure why others cannot repeat it.  Two expanpansions a year and 17 over ten years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest#Expansions

Yeah, man, I know.

Asheron's Call also managed this trick for quite a while. Without selling xpacs, actually.

Turbine even now does a decent job for an underresourced studio at pushing content.

So the interesting question is still, "Why are MMOs getting worse at this rather than better"? I think part of it is that there was less hesitancy to push out something that might be exploited or be unbalanced in early MMOs. Obviously the art resources were easier to handle, and probably the code base as well. I dunno.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The fact that no game has even attempted to be a wow killer is part of their failure. I'm not saying that anything can be a wow killer but you don't make a game and aim for second place.

[Lantyssa]

Have you missed the last five years?  A lot of games thought they'd be the WoW killer.  Their hubris didn't let them see they couldn't manage to be an already dead EQ killer, but they thought they could do it.

The problem, as always, is that they were competing against a giant without taking stock of what their actual capabilities were.  Strive to make a good product.  Don't worry so much about the other guy beyond asking what he did right and what he did wrong.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Actually no, I've been paying attention and WAR at its best said they were shooting at what 3mil subs total? None of these games are trying to dethrone wow, they are all trying to steal breadcrumbs.

I'm not saying any of these games had a chance in hell of being number one but they all went in with the philosophy of "well we can be a solid 2!"

[Kageru]

I don't know what modern EQ expansions look like. But the ones that came out when I was playing EQ would barely count as content now. They were simplistic in terms of simple maps sprinkled with mobs, no quests, no new mechanics and relatively simple raid mechanics. In WoW that would just get laughed at.

But I wonder if that's not the difference. A game that wants to be a DCUO "console style action-RPG", which modern WoW is actually getting close to in some ways, sets up huge expectations of the rate in which content will be consumed and the quality of it. An older style MMO where it is a world rather than a theme park smaller changes and content that is more gradually consumed (such as triggered by exploration or dynamic events) is more likely to be sustainable. Slow versus fast burn content I guess. Though if you want mass market, WoW style numbers, and the development budget that goes with it you are probably forced to provide flashy graphics and rich content.

[ghost]

Don't worry so much about the other guy beyond asking what he did right and what he did wrong.

They clearly don't do this, particularly the "wrong" part.

[Khaldun]

Most of these games trying to be WoW killers was amusingly stupid since what they ended up building were underresourced, underdeveloped versions of WoW. It hasn't been David vs. Goliath, it's been Goliath vs. mini-Goliath. You want to kill WoW, you need to pack a slingshot that aims straight at its vulnerabilities.

[Typhon]

[snip]
I'm going to sound like a fanboy, and I don't mean to be, but you guys are a tough crowd. Ridiculously so. What do you want any of these games to be? None of them are going to be WoW killers any time, for sure. So stop talking about and stop expecting it from anywhere. Ironically, people have plenty to bitch about WoW too. Nothing seems to be good enough, whether the game is modest or enormously successful. There's always some problem. I'd just say to have whatever fun you can get out of them and move on. There are so many games around to occupy the void that it's ridiculous.

I've been feeling like this as well for awhile.  When did f13 become a forum for people who hate games?  Wasn't the hate supposed to be for games that had no redeeming qualities?  Or for developers who had managed to produce a game that was close to being awesome, but who put their own ego's above fun?  When did everything become so binary - it's either robot Jesus or complete crap.  When did successfully doomcasting a game become more enjoyable than playing a game and having a bit of fun?  When did not successfully doomcasting a game instigate a campaign of hate to prove that the game really does suck? 

My understanding is that DCUO is Sony's number one selling game of all time and that they were having problems keeping it in stock.  That sounds like a successful game to me.

To give credit where credit is due:

I thought this was going to be absolutely awful so I'll man up and eat crow on this one. From what I understand it's pretty decent. It looked like the worst game at E3 (or second-worst behind Crackdown 2) so they really must have busted their asses to get it into shape.

I have a lot of respect for that post.  I didn't really follow this game because my true love is Marvel comics but it did sound like it was going to be a train wreck.  My impression of the way they handled the beta (super-sekret mode!) made it seem especially suspect.

  which makes me wonder if all of you are the same, but maybe I've changed?  Am I too easy on games now?  Am I less bitter than when I first joined?  Dammit which is it?!

... 

It just occurred to me that none of that matters and that I should be happy that I have somehow managed to keep my love for games.  And that fast, I am happy!

[Rasix]

I'll quote someone else in response to that post, since it seems fitting given the tone of the quote and tone of the reply.

"Welcome to the internet, pussy."