DCUO- will be out November 2. Can apply for beta on main site now.

[Triforcer]

I think this shows, more than anything I've seen so far, how consolization is affecting DCUO development.  The justification they used for this in that quote was "we don't want you to read logs to figure out what you were hit with."  Translation:  12 year olds with PS3s barely have the ability to read the logs, and even if they are literate it would bore them to do so.  I am a major fanboi of this game, but if anything sinks it, it will be designing the entire game around 12 year olds with PS3s.

* I say this because every PS3 board I've seen where they discuss the game is 90% composed of two kinds of comments:

(1)  "I cant be Batman!  OMG SUCK I NO BUY!!"

(2) "Montly fee?  THATS LAME I DONT NEED THAT FOR MY OTHER GAMES, YOU SUX I NO BUY!"


Good luck getting money out of that group. 

[UnSub]

I remember the same complaint as 2 about MMOs on PCs though. People got over it. I'm more likely to bet on consoles than PCs for the next wave of MMOs because they aren't so crowded with competing MMOs. Especially F2P ones.

The "can't be Batman" is an issue every MMO with customisation will have to face though, because someone will always find a way of impinging on copyright.

[Triforcer]

I just don't buy that MMOs on consoles will work (unless consoles start coming with keyboards, in which case the difference is mostly semantic).

I KNOW they won't work with monthly fees, because console-types simply aren't conditioned to pay them (see my post above for the typical reaction).

And I'm 99% sure they won't work with F2P and microtransactions.  Everyone is getting on this train but its destined to end in complete disaster.  Is everyone really going to buy 15 sparkly doo-dads a month at a dollar each to trick out their heroes?  Newsflash to MMO developers:  we aren't 15 year old Korean girls who will buy a dancing unicorn GIF every two weeks to make our Korean Myspace page more noticeable for the hunky mysterious boy in homeroom.  Designing your games on the assumption that we are is pure undiulated fail.

[schild]

I KNOW they won't work with monthly fees, because console-types simply aren't conditioned to pay them (see my post above for the typical reaction).

Final Fantasy XI and Phantasy Star do a pretty good job of saying otherwise.

Microtransactions won't work?

Do you even have any idea where Microsoft and Sony make their killing? It's highway robbery and people are lined up. The Horse armor on XBLA pulled in another cool Mil for Bethsoft.

[Triforcer]

That's wonderful for those companies.  Now, can they do that every month in the same game for many years?  In a way that absolutely does not give any non-cosmetic advantage to those who buy versus those who don't?

[Lantyssa]

That's wonderful for those companies.  Now, can they do that every month in the same game for many years?  In a way that absolutely does not give any non-cosmetic advantage to those who buy versus those who don't?

Aeria Games, Nexion, Nodiatis, et. al. say there is a huge microtrans market amongst 12-year olds that will pull in far more than a $15 a month sub.  The kids have no control and apparently as long as it keeps them out of trouble, mommy and daddy are happy to pay for it.

[schild]

Lantyssa, I don't think it's actually worth talking with him about it. He's completely wrong on not only the console front but the RMT front in general. As in, he's just wrong and there's enough information out that that should he choose to actually research it, he can answer these questions himself.

[HaemishM]

What schild said. Tri, you are completely and utterly wrong when it comes to console MMOG's. Fuck, XBox Live, PSN, the Wii Virtual Console and WiiWare all prove you wrong on the "will not purchase microtransactions" front. Rock Band and Guitar Hero DLC anyone?

And who says that they have to restrict microtrans items to purely cosmetic? While most MMOG players blanch at the thought of selling useful items for money, the writing is on the wall with that. Yes, a Western male-dominated audience is different than the Korean tweener girl audience - that doesn't mean they are immune to purchasing useless shit.

Now I have doubts about DCUO, but they have little to do with monthly fees or DLC transactions. I'm actually starting to belive the game will actually come out now, though I don't believe PS3 and PC players will play together. Consoles are where the next WoW level MMOG success will come from (at least the one that doesn't have Blizzard's name on it), the game just won't look or be anything like WoW.

[Big Gulp]

Consoles are where the next WoW level MMOG success will come from (at least the one that doesn't have Blizzard's name on it), the game just won't look or be anything like WoW.

Agreed.  Console games need to be primarily action focused.  Something like WoW or EQ won't do the trick on consoles because for the most part we're dealing with a lot of ADD people.

[Mrbloodworth]

I just don't buy that MMOs on consoles will work (unless consoles start coming with keyboards, in which case the difference is mostly semantic).

I KNOW they won't work with monthly fees, because console-types simply aren't conditioned to pay them (see my post above for the typical reaction).

And I'm 99% sure they won't work with F2P and microtransactions.  Everyone is getting on this train but its destined to end in complete disaster.  Is everyone really going to buy 15 sparkly doo-dads a month at a dollar each to trick out their heroes?  Newsflash to MMO developers:  we aren't 15 year old Korean girls who will buy a dancing unicorn GIF every two weeks to make our Korean Myspace page more noticeable for the hunky mysterious boy in homeroom.  Designing your games on the assumption that we are is pure undiulated fail.

Isn't the arcade, and part of the PSN one huge micro transaction?

[Venkman]

Aeria Games, Nexion, Nodiatis, et. al. say there is a huge microtrans market amongst 12-year olds that will pull in far more than a $15 a month sub.  The kids have no control and apparently as long as it keeps them out of trouble, mommy and daddy are happy to pay for it.

The amount of people willing to pay deeply into the game is far south of the total amount of people registered to play the game. However, there are far more than enough of them to justify the cost of development, maintenance/expansion, and all of the infrastructure. The statement I've heard alot is something like "less people are willing to go deep into a game, but those players that do you may a LOT more on per head than you would from a flat subscription fee".

That's wonderful for those companies.  Now, can they do that every month in the same game for many years?  In a way that absolutely does not give any non-cosmetic advantage to those who buy versus those who don't?

As Lantyssa said, this is a model already proven.

The complication with consoles is that Sony, MS and Nintendo are in the way and want their (not insubstantial) cut.

[Mrbloodworth]

"In any MMO with a subscription, you are over charging 50% of your player base, and undercharging the other 50%."

[Velorath]

Aeria Games, Nexion, Nodiatis, et. al. say there is a huge microtrans market amongst 12-year olds that will pull in far more than a $15 a month sub.  The kids have no control and apparently as long as it keeps them out of trouble, mommy and daddy are happy to pay for it.

The amount of people willing to pay deeply into the game is far south of the total amount of people registered to play the game. However, there are far more than enough of them to justify the cost of development, maintenance/expansion, and all of the infrastructure. The statement I've heard alot is something like "less people are willing to go deep into a game, but those players that do you may a LOT more on per head than you would from a flat subscription fee".

That's wonderful for those companies.  Now, can they do that every month in the same game for many years?  In a way that absolutely does not give any non-cosmetic advantage to those who buy versus those who don't?

As Lantyssa said, this is a model already proven.

The complication with consoles is that Sony, MS and Nintendo are in the way and want their (not insubstantial) cut.

The unofficial ratio I've heard used in regards to microtransaction MMO's is 1/10/89.  1% buy a ton of stuff, 10% buy a small amount, and 89% never spend money on anything.  These are by no means the actual statistics for all games across the board, but it's more or less how the devs of these games look at things.  The key is that since these games are free and get a large amount of registered users, 1% of the player base becomes a substantial number.  John Davison was talking about this in a podcast this week, and there's some Chinese MMO that was just released in the U.S. a few months back that already has over a million users here now, and something like 50 million worldwide.  That Cartoon Network MMO is apparently also doing pretty well with all the advertising it gets.

As far as Triforcer's comment, you can sell things that are non-cosmetic, but that also isn't buying gear.  One example I've heard about is fast travel from area to area for 25 cents a pop.  It doesn't make a character more powerful, but it's a time saver and those transactions can add up pretty quickly.  There's plenty of opportunities to keep people making small transactions over long periods of time.

[Venkman]

Where a subscription-based game features ubers in uber gear to provide a push to newbs to achieve, mtx games rely on those cosmetics (wait, did someone think the cosmetics were being sold only because the devs didn't want to affect the core gameplay mechanic? No, it's because that's the most immediately visible point of differentiation between all of the otherwise sameness). Of course there's the other accroutrements like faster XP, faster travel, semi-private content, house trophies, etc.

The key is registered users, ongoing advertising and constantly finding ways to upsell mtx within the game world. So a game that merely has WoW's 11.5mil users is actually not doing all that well. That's why some of us have touted over the years the 130mil+ global registered users of Maplestory (circle mid-2008), Audition's 80mil (circa early-2008) and almost $100mil of Habbo (mid-2008). And conversely while 100mil is not really the insane number it would be for a subs-game.

Your sweet spot is that 10% number, because you know the 1-3% are the major investors. So you need ten times that in at least occasional passersby you managed to get an account from at all.

[Kageru]

Consoles may be the future due to their huge installed base but I'll do my very best to steer clear as long as I can. It looks simplified in terms of powers available, environments and interaction (no chat box, virtually no gui at all other than a huge power bar with 4 active powers). I mean I can see that flying around brightly lit sandboxes throwing objects at mobs and other players while spamming your attack key could be fun for a while but I'd rather buy a single player console game with a script and an ending. Not that I trust SOE to avoid sucking the fun out of the game anyway.

I'd still be happy if they spruced up CoH a little and built an actual end-game onto the thing. Speed up the levelling but actually have some content and progression to keep you occupied after you have your powers. Hopefully Champions online will be like that.

[ashrik]

You know, if we backed up a few years and replaced all the comments about microtransactions and subscription fees with talk about how gamers will never go for installing stuff on their consoles and dealing with patches... it'd be a suitable timewarp thread. The line is blurring and sooner or later, it'll be entirely nonexistant.

[Triforcer]

Jens Anderson really posts a lot at DCUO Source, and he necroed an old thread of mine there to say more about power loadouts-

http://www.dcuosource.com/index.php/topic,263.0.html

Interesting.  It looks like there will be more depth than I thought, as apparently you can now change your tactical set (offense, defense, support) in combat.

Four slots for consumables (out of the eight available to you at any moment) I find interesting.  If DCUO is actually going to make the jump to RMTing consumables that make a difference in PvP (which is what I think four item slots imply), that's a pretty big strategic break from the present AAA MMO wisdom. 

EDIT:  If you use the DevTracker function, you'll also find posts saying that more travel powers are coming.  Gogo Nightcrawler-style teleportation!

[Venkman]

You know, if we backed up a few years and replaced all the comments about microtransactions and subscription fees with talk about how gamers will never go for installing stuff on their consoles and dealing with patches... it'd be a suitable timewarp thread. The line is blurring and sooner or later, it'll be entirely nonexistant.

While I agree, the real difference is not consumer acceptance as much as technical capability. Years ago there weren't nearly as many consoles connected to the internet. I don't know what all the numbers are off the top of my head, but I think it's above 75% for PS3 and 80% for X360 (with Wii somewhere around 30-40%?). But it wasn't because people just decided to plug in. More it was because the console manufacturers made the online experiences so painless as to be transparent.

An MMO on X360 would in no way suffer from the install/patch process because the former is merely putting the disc in and the latter can happen automagically. PS3 would be the same. Wii would probably be more a pita, but we're not talking WoW for Wii either (though that would be the literal End of All Things).

This is quite unlock the fifth and sixth generation consoles that may or not have been connected at all and which didn't offer nearly as compelling reason to bother doing so.

[Margalis]

I love how Triforcer is so excited about this ultra-generic game. We can all watch his little heart be crushed in real time.

[Triforcer]

Wow, that came out of nowhere.  But I had forgotten that being cynical is ultra-trendy.  Please bring up my potential DCUO sorrow the next time you go to that one club who only plays bands that haven't sold out to the fascist crypto-patriarchic capitalist neocon  machine with your fellow Nader supporters. 

[Margalis]

Nader? Wha?

Chill dude, I was kidding around. You have to admit that you are to this game as Falconeer was to Vanguard. I'm just curious as to why you've chosen this game to get so excited about. I don't remember you being the exuberant sort.

Also predicting that a new MMO will probably under-deliver is less cynicism than sober realisim.

[Triforcer]

Ah, sorry for the unnecessary backlash.  I read that as meaner than you meant it.

Still, I don't know why I am excited this time.  This fires my imagine just as much as SWG did pre-beta.  Something about how they are designing it, the comments they make on the game makes me think that this could really be a winner.  And I love the D.C. universe much more than any fictional MMO universe IP to date.

It will probably be console-y and lame, but we all have our hopeless and doomed crushes    And given that SWTOR is apparently not an MMO at all, this is the only thing that looks even remotely like its trying to do something different. 

[Lantyssa]

Chill dude, I was kidding around. You have to admit that you are to this game as Falconeer was to Vanguard. I'm just curious as to why you've chosen this game to get so excited about. I don't remember you being the exuberant sort.

You should have seen him, a lot of us to be fair, early in SWG's development.

[Margalis]

Once bitten twice shy?

[Nevermore]

And I love the D.C. universe much more than any fictional MMO universe IP to date.

Not to ascribe motivations on others, but that's probably why you're most excited by this.  To me at least, a lot of the mechanics and design decisions for this game look highly questionable.

[Venkman]

I like the DC universe but not in the comic-geek sorta way. Just because it's cool and includes a few characters many of us would be if we ended up filthy rich or overpowered at 18 

I'm excited for DCUO mostly because it's using what-I-consider-to-be console controller inspiration to deliver a console and PC game. I'm tired of target autoattack some-button mashing. And during those times when I'm not tired of it, I don't need anything other than WoW.

It's initially why I liked TR so much. Being different at all is enough of a draw. But of course it has to work too. So I'm excited for DCUO because they're doing the different-enough, but only cautiously optimisitc that they'll make it work well.

[Lantyssa]

And I love the D.C. universe much more than any fictional MMO universe IP to date.

Not to ascribe motivations on others, but that's probably why you're most excited by this.  To me at least, a lot of the mechanics and design decisions for this game look highly questionable.

I share this opinion.  Since I'm not particularly interested in the DC universe, the design is important to me.  It hasn't grabbed me on that level.

I like the DC universe but not in the comic-geek sorta way. Just because it's cool and includes a few characters many of us would be if we ended up filthy rich or overpowered at 18 

They have heroes based around a bunch of slacker computer gamers?

[Venkman]

I dated myself there. I wasn't a slacker computer gamer until my late 20s 

[Lantyssa]

If you had the money you would have started earlier than your late 20's because you could have afforded ENIAC.

[Venkman]

lol! Not THAT old. Maybe Space Wars with those MIT guys...

There's a lot of "ifs" here that'd need to line up for me to go from the sloth I have been to Batman... but I'm convinced in some parallel universe I did that for a bit before getting KS'd by some serious mob types. Or maybe it's the sauce and the Burn Notice season finale, whose to say? 

[UnSub]

And I love the D.C. universe much more than any fictional MMO universe IP to date.

Not to ascribe motivations on others, but that's probably why you're most excited by this.  To me at least, a lot of the mechanics and design decisions for this game look highly questionable.

This. I've been around too many MMOs to get into the "isn't it awesome I can team up with Batman and wow open world PvP sounds interesting and it'll all be awesome" phase just yet. Until some hard details come out about exactly how the mechanics are going to work - probably late open beta is the only time such info is trustworthy - everything is up for change.

I also expect to see some of ChampO's design decisions change how DCUO is going to operate, simply because it'll serve as another test case for a superhero MMO.

[Venkman]

I suspect it'll be the other way around. I don't know how well DCUO will turn out but I do think ChampO is much closer to business as usual. Which in this genre means designing for the prior generation rather than thinking forward to a new one. And it's based on the premise that CoX was "fine", going solely by how much things are not changing, at least on paper. Even setting aside the rest of the genre, I'm curious how this title is going to be anything but CoX 2.0 in the same ways WAR was a sequel to DAoC.

[UnSub]

On that: remind me to look at that post again once ChampO's NDA drops. I have some thoughts on the matter that can wait until June.

[Lantyssa]

I suspect it'll be the other way around. I don't know how well DCUO will turn out but I do think ChampO is much closer to business as usual. Which in this genre means designing for the prior generation rather than thinking forward to a new one. And it's based on the premise that CoX was "fine", going solely by how much things are not changing, at least on paper. Even setting aside the rest of the genre, I'm curious how this title is going to be anything but CoX 2.0 in the same ways WAR was a sequel to DAoC.

Based on my limited knowledge of either, ChampO's power selection seems like the biggest change from what we always get.  If it work well, however, it will give future games a look at how to break away from static classes.

Nothing I've heard about either game otherwise makes me think they'll be ground breaking, so I'm not sure why you think DCUO will be so much better and revolutionary.

[Numtini]

I really wonder if the market is large enough to support three superhero games.