SWTOR

[eldaec]

That is a surprisingly good announcement.

The videos I've seen so far seemed to make all decisions about drowning kittens vs saving orphans, it was all black and white even by bioware standards.

The combat videos also look increasingly positive. Combat is reminding me a lot of CoX - only with higher production values and hopefully vastly more content. I especially like the idea that they are going to leave this in the oven for another 6-9 months rather than rush release it.

Increasingly confident that this could be interesting for at least a few months. Which is impressive given how dreadful the Bioware Austin set up looked initially.


Smugglers look consistently ridiculous but we can't have everything.

[Tannhauser]

I do hope they eventually expand space travel.  I understand their current limitations, but it would be good to be a smuggler and actually travel around smuggling stuff.  You could have AH's linked but you have to travel to a planet to actually pick up cargo, not get it in mail. 

Bounty Hunters prowl around, looking for wanted smugglers.  Troopers patrol the space lanes, and Jedi and Sith just attack each other. 

Of course you'd need to be able to upgrade your ship, etc.  Hey a guy can dream right?

[luckton]

The combat videos also look increasingly positive. Combat is reminding me a lot of CoX - only with higher production values and hopefully vastly more content. I especially like the idea that they are going to leave this in the oven for another 6-9 months rather than rush release it.

This is what I think a lot of people don't understand...there is no auto-attack in this game.  It's all active skill/push-button-to-win stuff.  As long as their GCD timer runs smooth, it'll work out well.

[Malakili]

The combat videos also look increasingly positive. Combat is reminding me a lot of CoX - only with higher production values and hopefully vastly more content. I especially like the idea that they are going to leave this in the oven for another 6-9 months rather than rush release it.

This is what I think a lot of people don't understand...there is no auto-attack in this game.  It's all active skill/push-button-to-win stuff.  As long as their GCD timer runs smooth, it'll work out well.

Oh, that actually is good news.  I didn't realize their was no auto attack.  Fair enough, point for Bioware.

[eldaec]

There was no autoattack in CoX either, nominally there was one in EQ2 but nobody would ever use it. Afaik, avoiding reliance on auto attack is a problem solved in every major EQ clone since 2004 with one exception.

I rather expect all new AAA titles to have better-than-EQ combat mechanics these days.

[tmp]

I especially like the idea that they are going to leave this in the oven for another 6-9 months rather than rush release it.

They are?



it's scheduled for 3rd/4th quarter of this year.

[Malakili]

There was no autoattack in CoX either, nominally there was one in EQ2 but nobody would ever use it. Afaik, avoiding reliance on auto attack is a problem solved in every major EQ clone since 2004 with one exception.

I rather expect all new AAA titles to have better-than-EQ combat mechanics these days.

Maybe I haven't been playing the same games as you, but pretty much every MMO I've played in the last 7 years has had auto attack with a few exceptions. WoW (which is what I assume you were talking about), WAR, Rift, LoTRO, all come to mind.

[Samprimary]

Pretty much this, and Star Wars counts too.  I mean, anyone who actually takes a shot from a blaster in the original trilogy is done (Vader somehow deflects some with his hands, but whatever). Greedo looks like someone put him in a giant microwave after one shot.

Yeah it's something that's been sort of lost in translation but the difference between an off-the-shelf blaster and souped-up heavy blasters like the one han was carrying is supposed to be pretty big. Another thing that was supposed to be apparent is how stormtrooper style armor doesn't actually suck, but that heavy blasters can still punch through them, and, yanno. Stuff like that.

[Merusk]

Tho that still doesn't explain why clubs and stone spears took out an entire legion of the Empire's best troops. 

[Sky]

There was a new "ruined FOREVER!" announcement: Romance subplots for Jedi is a Dark Side action - which seems to have annoyed the 'roleplayers'.

   There is no emotion, there is peace.
    ...
    There is no passion, there is serenity.

That's one of the things that gives roleplaying a bad name, when it gets co-opted by cybertards looking for wank material, ignoring the lore the rp is supposed to be based on.

There was no autoattack in CoX either, nominally there was one in EQ2 but nobody would ever use it. Afaik, avoiding reliance on auto attack is a problem solved in every major EQ clone since 2004 with one exception.

Autoattack has always counted for a decent sliver of overall dps in EQ2, you wouldn't want to be without it (if you're milking that last % by spending hours raiding, it's "free" dps). I think you're just having difficulty communicating your point that you're talking about EQ1's reliance on autoattack for a significant amount of damage for some classes. CoX, on the other hand, literally had no autoattack at all (like TOR), which is still rare.

[Rishathra]

Smugglers look consistently ridiculous but we can't have everything.

[MuffinMan]

CoX, on the other hand, literally had no autoattack at all (like TOR), which is still rare.

You guys must have been playing a different CoX than me because mine had auto-attack. It wasn't on by default but it was still there.

[Amaron]

You guys must have been playing a different CoX than me because mine had auto-attack. It wasn't on by default but it was still there.

Auto attack is different than "repeat this action which I've told you to repeat".

That's one of the things that gives roleplaying a bad name, when it gets co-opted by cybertards looking for wank material, ignoring the lore the rp is supposed to be based on.

That's funny I thought the thing that makes RP have a bad name is whenever you want to play a role some nerd wanking off to lore comes out of the woodwork and tells you that you're doing it wrong.

[MuffinMan]

You guys must have been playing a different CoX than me because mine had auto-attack. It wasn't on by default but it was still there.

Auto attack is different than "repeat this action which I've told you to repeat".

Yea, choosing your most basic attack power to automatically attack enemies between powers is totally different than auto-attack.

[Lantyssa]

Since you could do it for only one power and it would always fire if targeting conditions are met, I consider it a very poor auto-attack.  I only ever risked turning on Twilight Grasp in major invasions so that my heal would go off more frequently than the lag induced conditions would allow with manual control.  Otherwise it's a great way for a squishy class to wind up dead because they tagged the wrong group.

[Malakili]

You guys must have been playing a different CoX than me because mine had auto-attack. It wasn't on by default but it was still there.

Auto attack is different than "repeat this action which I've told you to repeat".

Yea, choosing your most basic attack power to automatically attack enemies between powers is totally different than auto-attack.

More importantly, how does SWTOR handle it, is their an equivalent to either?

[MuffinMan]

Why would that be important in a SWTOR thread? 

[Rendakor]

I usually used CoX's auto-use for long duration, long recast buffs that I didn't want to have to manage. Hasten comes immediately to mind, as does the Kinects jumping power.

[Amaron]

Yea, choosing your most basic attack power to automatically attack enemies between powers is totally different than auto-attack.

It is.   I actually like auto attack the way WoW does it.   CoX sort of gets on my nerves because every swing you do is something fancy.  You don't actually EVER use the basic attack power in CoX because the animation time on it won't fit into a proper rotation.

I'm kind of annoyed that SW:TOR went this route but I guess it will depend on the animations.

[Malakili]

Yea, choosing your most basic attack power to automatically attack enemies between powers is totally different than auto-attack.

It is.   I actually like auto attack the way WoW does it.   CoX sort of gets on my nerves because every swing you do is something fancy.  You don't actually EVER use the basic attack power in CoX because the animation time on it won't fit into a proper rotation.

I'm kind of annoyed that SW:TOR went this route but I guess it will depend on the animations.

I look at is like this - if there is no auto attack, that means I am going to have to be actively choosing what to do every global cooldown.  It didn't come across in the videos I've seen, but that means to me that combat is much more interactive.  This is probably more important at lower levels because you have fewer abilities.  In WoW at lower levels an absurd amount of the time is sitting there watching auto attacks, for example.  More active combat would be more engaging to me and is one of the few things I've heard so far that makes the game sound fun to *actually play*.   Now, I might be inserting way too many assumptions into how it actually plays in reality based on this one idea, but I think its a good thing generally speaking.

[eldaec]

To make my point more explictly, I go into every MMOG assuming that auto attack will not be a major feature of combat. I've expected this for over 5 years. You don't get extra points for this any more than for dropping corpse runs.

WoW is only remaining relevant mmog where this isn't true, presumably because the core game was designed a decade ago.

Global cooldowns are something I've never seen the attraction or value of. Attacks take some amount of time, finish one, you get to choose the next.

[Nebu]

Global cooldowns are something I've never seen the attraction or value of. Attacks take some amount of time, finish one, you get to choose the next.

I've always assumed that GCD's served a few purposes:

1) they are a way to equalize latency differences

2) They eliminate the ability of some classes to have ridiculous spike damage (hit all instas at the same time)

3) They force more strategic use of abilities.

[eldaec]

Assuming your game doesn't rely on autoattack, I'd have thought that could all be done in a less intrusive way by balancing the time each specific attack takes to execute - especially as without autoattacks you don't want pauses between moves. But not really a big deal.

[Amaron]

I look at is like this - if there is no auto attack, that means I am going to have to be actively choosing what to do every global cooldown.  It didn't come across in the videos I've seen, but that means to me that combat is much more interactive.  This is probably more important at lower levels because you have fewer abilities.  In WoW at lower levels an absurd amount of the time is sitting there watching auto attacks, for example.  

You know it's interesting but the way I see things are actually totally reversed now.   Perchance have you maybe not played both games recently?   In CoX with set bonus enhancements you basically need less powers and so you cherry pick a few that are best and rotate them constantly in a prescribed manner.    Literally you take roughly 3 attacks and hit the buttons in the same order over and over no matter what.

WoW has also completely eliminated that stupid auto attack watching as well.   Even at level 1 you no longer sit there very much.   By the time you are 15~20 they basically have it setup so mostly every class is constantly doing something.   It's not a set rotation nor is it smashing the same buttons over and over.   They basically changed the mechanics so there is something you're always watching for and reacting too.   They started that with a lot of classes in Wrath and now it's basically across the board.  Some of the classes are a bit more "sedate" but I suspect that is simply to support different player types.

Some won't agree with me on all of that maybe but there is no doubt in my mind that the above proves taking out auto attack will not = better.  It's just a choice and how they do the rest of it is what really matters.   I personally prefer auto attack as a singular element.   Even if DCUO has ruined me.

[Malakili]

Assuming your game doesn't rely on autoattack, I'd have thought that could all be done in a less intrusive way by balancing the time each specific attack takes to execute - especially as without autoattacks you don't want pauses between moves. But not really a big deal.

I always saw it as part of the underlying assumption that MMO combat was a real time version of what was originally turn based combat.  Do this thing, resolve it, wait until you can do another thing, resolve it.  A hold over from pencil and paper games.  I think most action games already do what you've said, but MMO combat seems to me still largely influenced by that inherited combat model.

[eldaec]

Only the heavily WoW influenced games. Even EQ era games didn't need the global cooldown turn structure - they just had very few specials that you'd spam when they were up.

WoW's long gestation created a strange effect where the other games that launched at the same time already solved this (and many other) problems, but then the pressure to be like WoW has stopped others learning from WoW's contemporaries.

I'd definitely agree that WoW is iterating away from this particular issue and is now almost as strong as other 2004 era games. It is just hard to patch in fixes for something as fundamental to design as this.

[Amaron]

Assuming your game doesn't rely on autoattack, I'd have thought that could all be done in a less intrusive way by balancing the time each specific attack takes to execute - especially as without autoattacks you don't want pauses between moves. But not really a big deal.

That's what CoX does and the end result is that CoX combat is now slower paced than WoW combat.  The length of the animations is longer than WoW's GCD in almost all cases.  It also prevents them from doing quick animations that would look better on many moves.

[SurfD]

WoW's "auto attack" system is also really nothing to write home about, seeing as it is nothing more then swinging at whatever happens to be in mele range with your currently equipped weapon (or shooting at range if you are a hunter).   Which generally amounts to squat.   In most cases, an equal level mob will kill you before you kill it through auto attack damage alone, especially at higher levels.  And if you are a caster class, you might as well not even bother.

None of your "abilities" can be used as an auto attack, or auto cast.  It's the eqivilent of simply prodding stuff with a pointy stick.  Hell, Auto attack in WoW does not even invoke the GCD, it happens constantly, in the background, and is only superceded for mele classes by stuff like "on next swing" attacks, where the ability you push replaces the next auto attack swing you would normally do with a buffed special hit.

[luckton]

@CoX 'auto-attack': I agree with Amaron that turning on one ability to repeat itself is not the same as my automatically swinging my fist/weapon at the speed stat of said fist/weapon, regardless of whatever other ability I actively executed.

CoX way: You've got 5 abilities, #2 is set to auto-execute.  Assuming I don't queue up another ability, #2 will auto fire when ready, otherwise it enters the queue behind the skills I key up first.  If nothing is set to auto-execute, my hero will just stand there until I click something.

WoW way: My DK's speed stat is 3.0.  Every three seconds he swings his weapon, no matter how GCD-locked I am mashing hotkey skills.

ToR is following the CoX way.  Like Amaron said, it allows for fancier animations instead of my character looking like he's in the Matrix attempting to contort his arms in a way that shows he trying to auto-attack and use the special attack at the same time.  Let's not even talk about how frivolous it looks should I get a parry or dodge in there  

Also on the subject, I know they've changed it since then, but one of the reasons LotRO turned me off was it's combat handling.  The time between me pressing the hotkey to execute the skill, the skill getting queued up for my character to do it, actually executing it, and then making ready before executing the next skill was mind-numbing.  

[Merusk]

WoW's "auto attack" system is also really nothing to write home about, seeing as it is nothing more then swinging at whatever happens to be in mele range with your currently equipped weapon (or shooting at range if you are a hunter).   Which generally amounts to squat.   In most cases, an equal level mob will kill you before you kill it through auto attack damage alone, especially at higher levels.  And if you are a caster class, you might as well not even bother.

None of your "abilities" can be used as an auto attack, or auto cast.  It's the eqivilent of simply prodding stuff with a pointy stick.  Hell, Auto attack in WoW does not even invoke the GCD, it happens constantly, in the background, and is only superceded for mele classes by stuff like "on next swing" attacks, where the ability you push replaces the next auto attack swing you would normally do with a buffed special hit.

Yeah it's invisible, except for a long, long while there Auto-Attack was the largest or 2nd largest portion of damage dealt by melee and hunters.   Even now it can make-up 19% or better of total damage dealt. That's not insignificant.

[Sky]

For mechanics, I prefer EQ2's way of doing it. Each ability had a refresh and recast timer that was unique to it, so you could make some abilities actually slow your entire "GCD", some speed it up, and you could take talents to affect individual abilities without throwing others out of whack or being up against the hard-coded GCD wall.

Also something that came up in Rift, I hope they have a 1-ahead queue. Rift originally didn't have one, then put in a limited one, I think they released with a decent version. But EQ2's is really well done so that you're not watching your hotbar for cooldowns quite as much. You hit ability A and then immediately hit ability B and when you see B firing off, hit C. Makes things nice and fluid. I really hope TOR has that feature.

[Venkman]

Someone eating blaster shots at point blank range bothers me more.

Can you name a workable solution that doesn't fall apart when fighting multiple people, and that allows you to continue attacking?  

Assassin's Creed 2? Though it's far too late in development to implement something like that in SWTOR. And I agree with Eldaec that in part it's due to WoW having reset the genre back to before some of the early-2000s games had already started solving some of this.

I hope they have a 1-ahead queue.

I think it did in the PAX demo? But if not, yes, I'd like one. Rift put it in late and it was kinda servicable, but I agree EQ2's was superior.

[Lakov_Sanite]

There was a new "ruined FOREVER!" announcement: Romance subplots for Jedi is a Dark Side action - which seems to have annoyed the 'roleplayers'.

   There is no emotion, there is peace.
    ...
    There is no passion, there is serenity.

That's one of the things that gives roleplaying a bad name, when it gets co-opted by cybertards looking for wank material, ignoring the lore the rp is supposed to be based on.

I understand it's the 'lore' and lord knows I'm not going to be roleplaying in a star wars game but the whole 'jedi cannot love' shit that I think was instigated in the prequels? That's right next to mitichlorians when it comes to biggest donkey turd in the series.

[Amaron]

ToR is following the CoX way.  Like Amaron said, it allows for fancier animations instead of my character looking like he's in the Matrix attempting to contort his arms in a way that shows he trying to auto-attack and use the special attack at the same time.  Let's not even talk about how frivolous it looks should I get a parry or dodge in there  

That's not what I'm saying at all.   I'm saying it's better to have those auto attacks because at least you get to see some normal attacks that way.    All you'll ever see your jedi doing is executing elaborate scripted melee abilities over and over.   Never will you get to see him swing his sword in quick slices for decent damage.  At least (thank god) they are using a GCD.  I don't even want to get into the nightmare that is animation time = damage.  Make no mistake though I agree with Malakili on how much this form of combat needs to change.  

I'm simply saying in WoW auto attack is a completely visual mechanic.   It's there simply to make this sort of combat LOOK BETTER.   Taking it out and doing everything else the same way is just stupid.

[Velorath]

Someone eating blaster shots at point blank range bothers me more.

Can you name a workable solution that doesn't fall apart when fighting multiple people, and that allows you to continue attacking?  

Assassin's Creed 2? Though it's far too late in development to implement something like that in SWTOR.

The "everybody politely takes turns attacking one at a time" combat system?  Which also still uses a health bar?  That's just trading one form of immersion breaking for another, and would look absolutely terrible when you're fighting a bunch of guys with blasters.  It could be kinda cool for Jedi vs. Sith combat, but that's about it.  It also wouldn't work very well in PVP.