Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"

[Goldenmean]

For those on Avatus (like myself), I'm in a guild called "The Drunk Tanks."  Dominion PvX, mature, Medium-hardcore, no app needed, open admission with the new auto-recruit addon.  Seem like a good enough crowd so far with the numbers to make things happen.
My character's name is "Ghunstarr."

I'm on Avatus, Dominion side. Main character I've been playing is Tirith, a tanky engineer. I'll eventually be guilding with some other people I've played previous MMOs with, but the person who reserved our guild name has been slacking, so hasn't set it up yet. Feel free to friend me. I'll friend people tomorrow when I'm back from work. Servers just went down for a patch that they didn't announce in game, which was an unpleasant surprise.

[Goldenmean]

How much of it do you have to repeat on every alt you want to raid with? (Not that it isn't absurd for even a single character.)

Apparently the end boss of the instance is going to drop things you can use to attune others. So, if you're in farm mode (or potentially if you want to spend one bazillion dollars on the AH if the item is tradable), none of it. And if you aren't, all of it.

Personally, I've always liked attunements. I like the idea that the reward for beating some content is ... more content. The only real issue I have with them are the alt/new guild member situations, and they've at least taken steps to address that partially. I believe parts of that *can* actually be done out of order. Either the adventures or the dungeons or possibly both only look at your achievements, so you can pre complete those steps.

But just because I know you people love being offended by things you don't even really care about... it's actually worse than it initially looks. The currency you buy the key for? Elder gems? That's not money. That's experience and time. Once you hit level cap, your xp bar becomes an ep bar and you gain an elder gem every time you fill it up. I don't know how long it takes on average to gain an elder gem, but there's a weekly cap of 140 I believe. Which means you can't even start this process until being at cap more than a week. Oh yeah, you can also spend elder gems to increase your AMP max (talent points effectively) and skill tier point max, so it's far from the only thing competitve players will want to spend these on.

Again, this doesn't bother me. It's ignorable if you don't want to raid. It's a competence and patience test if you do want to raid. And because you'll need both in raids, that's fine by me.

I just wish they had smaller raid sizes. I'm too old and crotchety to try to find 19/39 other people that 1) Aren't raging asshats 2) Are competent enough to actually down content in a reasonable time period and 3) Want to raid on something like my schedule.

[Numtini]

While the pre-orders are busy doing the queue dance, here's the attunement details for the entry level raid:

That graphic is buyer's remorse in jpg form. We'll see if they're still processing refunds.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'd love wildstar, attunement and all....if there was no sub fee.  Hell I'd gladly drop $60 on it but man....just not worth the cash anymore and I even have more cashflow than I did when I played wow.

[Draegan]

The main and biggest thing that is wrong with it is that it exists at all, if you build a raiding game you should be encouraging people to raid not cockblocking them.

Whats wrong with that list other than it being long? Or maybe that's it? You don't like that it's a long list of stuff I suppose?

Wasn't your question already answered in the very post you're replying to? The existence of long list of required stuff is bad when it's used to cockblock people from activity, when said activity requires bunch of people to be eligible for it, just to have it happen.

That wasn't my point. My point was that Veteran Dungeons were gated by a long list of stuff called the "leveling process". So do you consider that cockblocking? Raid attunement is just another form of "leveling" in my opinion. If you really want to raid, you have to go through the dance of getting access, just like if you want to do heroic dungeons, you have to go through the leveling process and you can't just create a character and go do them.

[Samprimary]

Attunement sucks, but at least with that you could have a heck of a lot more confidence in anyone you are raiding with. They've all hit a minimum threshold of confidence and practice with the game in general.

[01101010]

Attunement sucks, but at least with that you could have a heck of a lot more confidence in anyone you are raiding with. They've all hit a minimum threshold of confidence and practice with the game in general.

LMAO...

wait, you are being serious?

[Threash]

Putting attunements on raids means the raid is not done, it is that simple.  Nobody should be defending this.

[Nebu]

Of all the things to whine about, you guys choose raid attunement. 

Have you played the game?  It's fun.  I'm having more fun than I did when WoW released.  The quests are better, there's more humor, and it doesn't feel nearly as grindy.  I'm finding myself running around the world looking for things to do BECAUSE I WANT TO AND AM HAVING FUN DOING SO.  It's just the right combination of GW2 and WoW for my tastes. 

[Pennilenko]

Of all the things to whine about, you guys choose raid attunement. 

Have you played the game?  It's fun.  I'm having more fun than I did when WoW released.  The quests are better, there's more humor, and it doesn't feel nearly as grindy.  I'm finding myself running around the world looking for things to do BECAUSE I WANT TO AND AM HAVING FUN DOING SO.  It's just the right combination of GW2 and WoW for my tastes. 

Surely, you are just imagining things. You will become disillusioned very shortly, there is no way that you are actually having fun with this game.

[Rendakor]

If the game had a full suite of 10m content I might have tried to convince some friends to join. The cockblocks aren't a huge deal but I don't know enough people to make it worthwhile.

[Rokal]

Of all the things to whine about, you guys choose raid attunement. 

Have you played the game?  It's fun.  I'm having more fun than I did when WoW released.  The quests are better, there's more humor, and it doesn't feel nearly as grindy.  I'm finding myself running around the world looking for things to do BECAUSE I WANT TO AND AM HAVING FUN DOING SO.  It's just the right combination of GW2 and WoW for my tastes. 

There is so much stuff to do. I played an unhealthy amount this weekend and barely finished the first "real" zone (so not the tutorial or starter zone). I know I missed a bunch of optional challenges while I was there too.

Last thing I did before logging out last night was unlock housing and set some stuff up. The tools are better than Rift's, letting you easily modify and preview textures on most surfaces in addition to giving you full control over position and size.

I'm having a great time with the game. It's dumb but typical that the conversation here has centered around raid attunement in the game when it's unlikely that most people here (including myself) will even bother with the raid content. If you never touch that content, you're still left with the most "available at launch" feature/content rich MMO that has released since WoW.

[Merusk]

Raid content kept me in WoW for many, many years. I did attunements and the like.  This is a throw-back to EQ attunements and as such I'd give this a pass.

One thing to remember is you're at the early state of the game. You'll still have plenty of opportunities to do all those steps so long as you keep putting in the hours to do them.  Come in 3-6 months from now and you'll find it's a different matter.

That's part of the reason attunements went away. Nobody wants to do them forever, it's just repeating the same content instead of moving on.  Those who were running them 5-6 months in would typically find their member churn was insane because further-progressed guilds freely poach good players.  

My guild did this to farther back guilds and the guilds more progressed than us did it to us. It sucks and only leads to burn-out of your leadership core because they have to be recruiting 100% of the time.

Additionally, the same content funneling will happen here as happened in old games. The elite will tear through and then bitch there's nothing to do, meaning the content needs to be developed for them so they don't quit or trash your game all over the place. They have the time to do so and the chip on their shoulder that will drive them to do so as well. Therefore,  I hope you enjoy the cap non-raid content, that's all you're getting.

The funniest part of this whole cycle. The thing that will have me chuckling for years is how it always repeats. There's groups who get drawn in, love some basics and buy the developer bullshit. Hell even the devs might buy it.  

"This time it will be different!"  "We have a plan!" "We've thought about these contingencies!"

And then it turns out that you're just Napoleon trying to invade Russia in the winter.  Again.

[Lantyssa]

I chose the Brazilian server because my robot lady has no hair.

[Ingmar]

My guild in WoW spent the better part of three years raiding, and I can guarantee you that if we had had this sort of nonsense stuck in front of the ability to do it, it would have never gotten off the ground. Meeting a minimum gear level to get in is attunement enough. I had a bunch of friends take up raiding who weren't sure if they'd like it or not because I was able to say 'just come along and see if you enjoy it'. Even the amount of attunement required for Karazhan was an obstacle for people who weren't sure they'd enjoy it; piling a bunch of nonsense in front of the raid kills the chance to get those people involved in your endgame, it's a dumb choice.

It's not a *surprising* choice from a dev group that makes intro-level leveling dungeons use complicated raid mechanics, but it's a dumb one.

[Nebu]

I always thought that the point of a raid was to provide challenging extra content for those that burned through the initial content too easily.  Seems that Wildstar is taking that approach as well.  Perhaps it's not meant to be easily approachable?  I don't see how that will affect much.  The hardcore players like shit like this because it makes them feel even more "hardcore". 

[Rokal]

I'm not convinced it's going to be as big of a part of the game as it is in WoW. WoW has such an entrenched raiding community, it usually stifles the raid community in new MMOs. There is likely a very large amount of overlap in the playerbase for each game, but what happens to Wildstar's raid community when the new WoW expansion comes out where everyone already has established guilds they have been raiding with for years? We've seen a bunch of MMOs come out that tried to make raiding a big part of their game (Rift, SWTOR, etc.) but the developers always seem to invest less in that content once the game comes out and it's clear that player interest lies elsewhere. Either way, the game isn't lacking in non-raid content if you approach it with the typical "play for 1-3 months" MMO attitude.

I did the first adventure today with a PuG and found that the default UI is borderline unusable for healing in groups. When a teammate loses their shields, which most classes do not have a good way to restore, they will simply look like they are at 60-70% hp with the shield section of the healthbar missing. I was always confused about who needed healing, who didn't, and how much. I've heard bijiplates recommended which splits health and shield into separate bars. Really feels like the sort of thing they need to bake into the default UI though. Adventure was pretty fun though, the "choose your own adventure" style of picking tasks seems like it will help replayability. Similar to some SWTOR dungeons in that sense. It was not easy: it is the first piece of group content in the game and if people stand in telegraphs they will most likely die.

[Nebu]

I did the first adventure today with a PuG and found that the default UI is borderline unusable for healing in groups. When a teammate loses their shields, which most classes do not have a good way to restore, they will simply look like they are at 60-70% hp with the shield section of the healthbar missing. I was always confused about who needed healing, who didn't, and how much. I've heard bijiplates recommended which splits health and shield into separate bars. Really feels like the sort of thing they need to bake into the default UI though. Adventure was pretty fun though, the "choose your own adventure" style of picking tasks seems like it will help replayability. Similar to some SWTOR dungeons in that sense. It was not easy: it is the first piece of group content in the game and if people stand in telegraphs they will most likely die.

It gets more confusing playing my esper.  The shield we can put on a player adds a third split to their health bar health/ablative/shield.  I wasted a lot of focus overhealing.

As for the rest, it's tough to take the complaints seriously unless people have played the game past level 20.  Sure, I can see a number of potential problems with the game but am having enough fun to overlook them for the time being.  It's definitely worth the box cost in my estimation.  Particularly if you're wanting to scratch the MMO itch.  It's far more fun than ESO.

[dd0029]

And now for something completely different.

Costumes/wardrobes 

Preorders come with all sorts of costume stuff. It took me a fair bit of searching and then just a wild guess to figure out you have to use the dye guy to setup your costume. Once I figured that bit of nonintutive UI, actually getting items to stick in my wardrobe has been something of a challenge. At least two and up to four random pieces will do this odd flashing thing and then only "stick" half the time. Why is playing pretty, pretty gopher princess so hard?

[Nebu]

And now for something completely different.

Costumes/wardrobes 

Preorders come with all sorts of costume stuff. It took me a fair bit of searching and then just a wild guess to figure out you have to use the dye guy to setup your costume. Once I figured that bit of nonintutive UI, actually getting items to stick in my wardrobe has been something of a challenge. At least two and up to four random pieces will do this odd flashing thing and then only "stick" half the time. Why is playing pretty, pretty gopher princess so hard?

That's one of their bad decisions.  They changed costume slots because people were using them as gear storage. A better solution would have been to give people more storage... but they do love their time/money sinks.

[Samprimary]

Attunement sucks, but at least with that you could have a heck of a lot more confidence in anyone you are raiding with. They've all hit a minimum threshold of confidence and practice with the game in general.

LMAO...

wait, you are being serious?

Yes. That insane hellgrind would at dead least ensure that (most) anyone you CAN raid with has passed through a hellgauntlet to be able to. You would have far fewer problems with people taking their shot at the raid and being obviously not up to snuff.

That's the 'benefit' side of the cost to benefit analysis of the presence of an attunement hellgrind.

Now, if I thought that this benefit outweighed the negatives and downsides of attunement in general? That's when you laugh at me. Hard.

[Samprimary]

And now for something completely different.

Costumes/wardrobes 

Preorders come with all sorts of costume stuff. It took me a fair bit of searching and then just a wild guess to figure out you have to use the dye guy to setup your costume. Once I figured that bit of nonintutive UI, actually getting items to stick in my wardrobe has been something of a challenge. At least two and up to four random pieces will do this odd flashing thing and then only "stick" half the time. Why is playing pretty, pretty gopher princess so hard?

That's one of their bad decisions.  They changed costume slots because people were using them as gear storage. A better solution would have been to give people more storage... but they do love their time/money sinks.

AAH NO

[Nebu]

AAH NO

You have a better explanation for the change?

[01101010]

Yes. That insane hellgrind would at dead least ensure that (most) anyone you CAN raid with has passed through a hellgauntlet to be able to. You would have far fewer problems with people taking their shot at the raid and being obviously not up to snuff.

That's the 'benefit' side of the cost to benefit analysis of the presence of an attunement hellgrind.

Now, if I thought that this benefit outweighed the negatives and downsides of attunement in general? That's when you laugh at me. Hard.

You have a lot more optimism than I do I suppose. If someone half-asses it through raids and does not have a clue/doesn't give a shit, chances are they'll get carried through attunement as well. I don't see this as the basic training grounds like you do. I'd like to, but reality is what it is and I'll agree to disagree with you on this topic.

[tmp]

That wasn't my point. My point was that Veteran Dungeons were gated by a long list of stuff called the "leveling process". So do you consider that cockblocking? Raid attunement is just another form of "leveling" in my opinion. If you really want to raid, you have to go through the dance of getting access, just like if you want to do heroic dungeons, you have to go through the leveling process and you can't just create a character and go do them.

Well, since the leveling process is bound to have a percentage of people go "I've done this shit in a dozen games already, I'm so over it" and quit, you could consider it cockblocking to some extent, yes. But if this is supposed to be your point then fine, let's consider it -- if the game already requires you to jump through number of hoops during the leveling process which you argue is no different from raid attunement, why then the need to have the extra "raid attunement" on top of that? Why can't the "leveling process" suffice here, and you have to "prove" that you really really want to raid, and pray that there's 39 equally dedicated morons in your guild available regularly enough to then allow you to actually raid?

[Draegan]

That wasn't my point. My point was that Veteran Dungeons were gated by a long list of stuff called the "leveling process". So do you consider that cockblocking? Raid attunement is just another form of "leveling" in my opinion. If you really want to raid, you have to go through the dance of getting access, just like if you want to do heroic dungeons, you have to go through the leveling process and you can't just create a character and go do them.

Well, since the leveling process is bound to have a percentage of people go "I've done this shit in a dozen games already, I'm so over it" and quit, you could consider it cockblocking to some extent, yes. But if this is supposed to be your point then fine, let's consider it -- if the game already requires you to jump through number of hoops during the leveling process which you argue is no different from raid attunement, why then the need to have the extra "raid attunement" on top of that? Why can't the "leveling process" suffice here, and you have to "prove" that you really really want to raid, and pray that there's 39 equally dedicated morons in your guild available regularly enough to then allow you to actually raid?

Because the level cap is where the game really starts? 

[Riggswolfe]

The funny thing about this raid attunement stuff, for me personally, comes in two parts:

1) I don't give a shit about raids, won't be joining a raiding guild, so don't give a shit about attunement.

2) If Wildstar follows the pattern of other games they'll eventually realize they have far more casuals than raiders and over time they'll relax this stuff. Hardcores will bitch and moan while the rest of the player base enjoys what, to them, is new content.

I'm playing the game and have no idea how long I'll stick with it. It's fun for now and while it's a mixed bag there is some stuff I quite enjoy. I suspect my stickiness will boil down to A) how many cockblocks they put in as you level and B) whether or not I find a guild of people I enjoy hanging out with.

Edit: This is definitely a game where new players in a couple of years will hear stories about "Back when it started, you only got mounts after the first few zones, and we had to work for everything we got!"

[tmp]

Because the level cap is where the game really starts? 

So, why all the hoops I must jump through before the game even "really starts"?

[Threash]

Have you played the game?

Yes, every beta i could get in on.

 It's fun.

No.

[Evildrider]

I've been burnt out on MMO's and I'm actually having fun again with Wildstar. So I'm with Nebu on the fun factor.

[Nebu]

Yes, every beta i could get in on.

I notice you eliminated the part about level 20.  Did you make it that far?  The game changes a LOT after 20.*

*Note: I'm not saying that this is good game design, just saying that it does get better.

[Draegan]

Because the level cap is where the game really starts? 

So, why all the hoops I must jump through before the game even "really starts"?

Because you need something to do that doesn't take 40 people.

[Draegan]

Yes, every beta i could get in on.

I notice you eliminated the part about level 20.  Did you make it that far?  The game changes a LOT after 20.*

*Note: I'm not saying that this is good game design, just saying that it does get better.

I got into the closed beta when the cap was level 17. I never hit it past 20. Here's what I posted on Rerolled:

I'm rolling a Warrior tank. I just hit level 10? 11? last night. Didn't have a ton of time to play this weekend. I'm in the SW portion of the first real area and I kind of randomly went down here. I think I have like 10 quests right now all over the place.

Anyway, I'll stand by what I've said this whole time. Outside the combat and the class system, the game is top notch. My main reason for not being excited about the game is the quest-driven-treadmill part. It's dull overall, but I'm softening on it.

The combat is better than I remember, animations and floatyness are much better. Warrior isn't as boring as I remember it being. So big A+ there. I think they must of tightened up the telegraph sizes where my swipes with my sword itself feel correct.

I'll have to re-try the freeform mod Toxx is talking about. It didn't feel good when I tried it a year ago.

I still have to say I dislike the class system. There isn't anything special about it. It's not bad, but I dislike it because it's so standard. I was hoping for something more interesting. The ability to put points into your skills saves it a bit though. It's well done for what it's attempting to do (minus normal balancing stuff), but I would of loved to see something different.

If the devs hold on to their stance of difficult challenging content the game will probably do well long term. If they cave and make dungeons and raids ez-mode OR if they make content with 4 levels of difficulty it'll just chase people back to WOW. This game can't be just NewWow, it needs to be different and the only difference they can really compete with is difficulty and exclusivity of content.

My 2 cents.

I never got past level 20. I know your character's tools seem to open up then from what I've read. I suppose that is the reason why.

[Nebu]

The classes are pretty lackluster.  I much preferred the original system in Rift to Wildstar.  There are some balance issues already and the heavy pvp emphasis will likely make this even more problemmatic.  I just hope that the dev team is more responsive to fotm issues than Blizzard was.  Not holding my breath though.

[tazelbain]

Hehe, its been 15 years and MMO as still grappling with the same basic problem: content consumption outstrips content production by several magnitudes.