Guitar thread

[Sky]

Asturias is on my short list of tunes to learn. Though it will be a LONG time before I can play it :) I've been chipping away at the ami triplet with Rescuedos de Alhambra, which I talked about a bit a few posts ago, heh.

Also, a much nicer version of Asturias :)  Even Segovia played it with a broken ami technique, I hope to get it as fast as the modern kids playing it, thanks to my years at the altar of Steve Harris. But it's taking a lot longer than I expected to reduce the range of motion for a classical.

I've been pining for a Taylor cutaway nylon for a long time, but for now I prefer a full standard classical. Even with my smaller hands it allows at least some of my bass technique to be brought over and I like a flat wide neck. You do not need the higher frets to play classical music on the guitar, because classical guitars do not have upper fret access. Most of my technique practice for the last six months has been transferring bass technique and pinky discipline on broken chords or outre fingerings. I completely eschew electronics in the guitar. Get a boom mic stand and Shure SM57 and you're gtg. And it will sound better, I'm not a fan of integrated mics or pickups, especially on the low end instruments.

Anyway, in guitar news, not much. I've had a couple guys asking where they can buy my cd when I link my pieces as an example of how unhappy I am with my playing  So, my project for this winter is to update some recordings and look into what I need to do legally and logistically to release them. The fiancee advises against my initial idea for a title "Great Songs Played Poorly" :)

[HaemishM]

If it's original stuff, you can always release it on Tunecore or Bandcamp. If it's covers, well you're SOL unless it's all classical public domain stuff.

[Sky]

If it's covers, well you're SOL unless it's all classical public domain stuff.

It would be the latter, though I might venture into some original composition, like inserting some slayer or sabbath into a piece :) There's one I'm cobbling together that features four classical pieces and some slayer, sabbath and metallica, it's probably ten+ minutes long. I would probably need a big doobie to be able to record it, so I doubt it will make the cut...

[Ghambit]

So I lucked into an older spanish-made Rodriguez cutaway classical with a pickup.  Rodriguez is kinda low on the totem pole but it'll serve me well as a beginner and I tried to stay away from Chinese.  We'll see how this goes, but if she doesn't play well I'll probably go buy a newer full-body Godin.  Supposedly they're building La Patrie all solid wood classicals now for the same pricings as laminate.  I fooled with one today at GC and really liked the sound.

Books...  Doin Hal Leonard complete guitar and the same in classical.  I'll toss in Rocksmith but I'd like to fool around with some other software-based stuff.   I saw the one "for dummies" and another eMedia one.   Anyone have some recommendations??

I'm a former musician.  My theory is fine, but I enjoy muddling through method books.

[Sky]

Here's a link to my stock recommendations.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=4508.msg998065#msg998065

And congrats on getting back into it! Everyone should play something.

:)

http://www.amazon.com/Library-Easy-Classical-Guitar-Solos/dp/0825635047 is a definite if you want to ease into some classical. Basically all I play these days, just rifle through this book. But that list has some good method things. I've got a pile of classical guitar method books I ignore because I can't read music or seem to learn to.

[Ghambit]

Yah, I've got the advantage of about 10 yrs symphonic experience so that part of it is super-easy.  I just need to learn tab., but I'd prefer to stick with standard notation if possible.
Is Carcassi really the bees knees as I keep reading???  Seems your typical high lvl scale and technical work; boring stuff, but fundamental.

edit: ok Sky so I'm gonna start with leonard's complete guitar (my goto relaxing brainfart general guitar methodbook),  then your fretboard workbook, topped off with "pumping nylon" which is just your all around modern classical method with a lot of technique, and your solo book for songs.  Rocksmith for some pickup fun (1st goal is holiday music [free DLC btw], then some jazz).   Some zen guitar vids from here for some mind-body technique.   Maybe some telepresence instruction when necessary from him... I really like his style.

My main goal is to be ready for the holidays when everyone will inevitably ask me to play.     If I can do a respectable 'good king wenceslas' I'll be happy.

[Sky]

Oh yeah, pumping nylon is a bitch. If you already know music and jump into that, you;ll be better than me in a month. Carcassi, I like it. There's a large selection of his stuff in the easy book I use. My favorite composer (besides bach, of course) is Tarrega.

The fretboard book is really nice for gaining an understanding of the layout of the guitar.

[Ghambit]

I've read some of that fretboard workbook online and it almost feels like cheating.  Nice find.
Btw, here's the new precious (it arrives tomorrow).  Gotta find a name for her.  I'm thinkin "Rose" but we'll see.  Bought it from some old cuban guy in Miami (as you can see). 

I know you wont like it Sky and tbh I'm a purest when it comes to classical guitar also, but this will serve me fine utility-wise for now.  I dont want to collect equipment.  I can rock classical, fusion latin, jazz (my main reason for the cutaway and pickup), country twang (willie style), or whatever on this thing.  She's a bit much on the laquer but she's pretty.  Hopefully she projects well enough like the one I tested, but I'm pretty concerned about how succinct she'll sound with each note.  These Rodriguez' tend to be very mellow, haunting type guitars and can sometimes muddle a melody.  I figure the wood's opened up by now, but typically the Spanish versions are fairlly aged before construction anyways.   (I'm turning into a guitar geek)

We'll see.  The guy claims his instructor tried to buy it off of him.   

[Sky]

I've really been enjoying the cheap spanish 'handmade' guitar I picked up from a co-worker. It's certainly not a pro instrument, but it's a sight better than what's coming out of China. I still have to set a new nut and saddle for it (or rather, learn how to do so), because the lady I bought it from has a light touch and it's set really low. Great for fretting, but I have a very heavy touch (bass player, Iron Maiden, etc) so it frets out alot on me. Also could stand some new tuners, they're pretty cheap. But the woods are nice on it and it sounds good, and for $250 I'm ok with that.

What did you pay for the Rodriguez? I'm a purist, but I could always use a nylon with a cutaway. The first one I fell in love with was a Taylor cutaway (which is $2400 now, I could've had for $800 five years ago).

[Ghambit]

I paid $400 for it.  A tad high probably but new these things were $1200 list and $800 in the shop.  Most of these spanish guitars are still actually made in China, but the Rodriguez I found was made in Spain (an older unit)... which makes it sexier   My requirements were solid cedar-top and rosewood sides.  Something taken care of and has some age.  So this one fit.  Its achilles will be the pickup, as the newer cutaways all sport new tech... blended piezo+undersaddle, tuner, etc.  This one just has a simple LR-Baggs USP.  You can get a cutaway Cordoba c7ce (if you dont mind Chinese) with a badass Fishman pickup for $350.  There's a guy in Kentucky that refurbs and tunes "b-stock" guitars that has a few still left.  I'd definitely buy one of those if you dont care about the slight damage.

If I had a do-over I'd probably spend a bit more and get a new Godin La Patrie (canada), either the Concert (mahogany) or the Presentation (rosewood).  The new ones are all solid-body and sound awesome.  Probably the best bang for the buck in a new guitar right now, not made in China.  Used they still sound great though, but wont be solid-body.

If you're a thrasher though, you'll want the new Yamaha NTX700 (or NCX if you prefer a more classical neck).  $400 at GC new.  It's fairly dull unplugged but a solid instrument that can take the poundings these modern latin players put on em.  The pickup is the best for a non-blended one.  The 900 isnt worth the bump in price.  Just go for the highest of the series in that case -1000?.   Same one rod y gab play on basically.

What are you wanting to do on it?  Whadaya wanna spend?     At this point I probably know vastly more than any guitar salesman should.

[Sky]

I'm fine with my current guitar until I buy a pro-level instrument. I dig mahogany, and it's got the cedar top and ebony fretboard. Like I said, I'd just tweak a few things but it's pretty awesome.

And again, pickups suck.

[Nebu]

And again, pickups suck.

I like playing my classical through and amp with effects.  It produces sounds that you can't get any other way. 

That and I'm terrible.  Chorus and reverb fix bad technique! 

[Sky]

Chorus and reverb fix bad technique! 

I hate you so much.

[Ghambit]

I just gotta play some blues/jazz.  And I may do some open mics down the road, so obviously I'll need a pickup.  I really wish "Rosa" had a piezo though.  :(    USPs for classical or latin are an abortion really.
And like I said, I really wanted to fool with software-based learning... eMedia, Rocksmith, etc.  So a pickup makes that a lot easier, let alone easier for impromptu recordings.

Sky, can you recommend a good external card/box to plug into my PC for this??  I cant simply go into a "line in" or "mic in" can I?  I need a pre-amp of some kind yah?  Even though the LR Baggs UST should have one already.

[Sky]

I think you underestimate what a luddite I am. I don't know what half of what you're saying is. I'm not a gear guy, I just play guitar. Guitar -> mic -> multitrack. One take, no dubs. Although my multitrack does plug into my PC via USB, but that's just for moving tracks over.

[Ghambit]

Well you generally have 2 types of commonly used acoustic pickups.  Undersaddle transducers and piezos.  Piezo is a fancy word for a mic and is obviously the preferred method for nylon users since it gives the purest sound.  They're installed right around the soundhole usually.  USTs are thin pickups that live underneath the bridge of the guitar and give off a decidedly more "electric" sound.  These days guys are getting pickups that have BOTH and can blend them together or not, as needed.  So at home or doing recordings on a nylon you'd blend it all the way to the piezo/mic and on-stage, in a band, playing with effects, jazz, whatever you'll put in some or all UST.

All this can be plugged into a PC, but you'll typically have to amp/process the signal before it gets to your sound card unless you've got a high-end card in your rig.  These are those boxes they sell at GC to go with pro tools, etc.  Most of these guitar pickups are pre-amps so I'm wondering if that's enough to get a good recording on a simple mobo line-in or mic-in.

Anyways, my guitar came today and it sounds great for a cutaway.  Plenty of volume and depth.  I have a buzz at the bridge though    So I'm gonna have to take it in to get inspected.  Figures.  Fuckin eBay.  Hopefully it's just the way I strung it.  The guy included a wicked nice hardcase with it though.  Case alone has to be $150.

[Trippy]

Well you generally have 2 types of commonly used acoustic pickups.  Undersaddle transducers and piezos.  Piezo is a fancy word for a mic and is obviously the preferred method for nylon users since it gives the purest sound.  They're installed right around the soundhole usually.  USTs are thin pickups that live underneath the bridge of the guitar and give off a decidedly more "electric" sound.  These days guys are getting pickups that have BOTH and can blend them together or not, as needed.  So at home or doing recordings on a nylon you'd blend it all the way to the piezo/mic and on-stage, in a band, playing with effects, jazz, whatever you'll put in some or all UST.

This is not correct. Undersaddle transducers *are* piezos in that they use piezo-electric crystals to pickup the vibrations transmitted through the bridge. Yes you can call a piezoelectric transducer a "microphone" but that's not normally what somebody means when they say they are using a microphone to amplify their acoustic guitar sound. Those would be condenser or dynamic microphones, typically.

http://www.acousticguitar.com/article/default.aspx?articleid=26793&printable=yes

[Ghambit]

You're right.  Not sayin I was correct, nor that I agreed with the terminology, but I've seen it used to describe a mic.  Probably incorrectly.  Anyways, you can get a Fishman blend for like $50.  Not sure how much it is to install.

[Sky]

. I've had a couple guys asking where they can buy my cd when I link my pieces as an example of how unhappy I am with my playing  So, my project for this winter is to update some recordings and look into what I need to do legally and logistically to release them. The fiancee advises against my initial idea for a title "Great Songs Played Poorly" :)

Started chipping away at this project, it's so difficult to record classical guitar. No dubs, no fudging, no playing with the mix. I love playing a 4 minute piece perfectly until I'm about 8 bars from the end and flubbing a chord disastrously. Anyway, the first session yesterday yielded a few acceptable pieces, but I've got a looong way to go with this one. Here's a teaser, the A section of Capricho Arabe, which is all you're going to get as the B section still eludes me (the C would be fine if I could get there).

I started by cleaning everything off my MR8HD, so here's a little nugget that was on there from 2006: Maggot Brain.

[Ghambit]

See Sting's hurricane-benefit piece last night?  Stole the show.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFbWe-GTEMk

Also, swoon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2a_yfT84KQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx7vOb7GNBg

If you live in the Baltimore area I do believe she gives lessons.  Her and Milos seem to be the frontrunners right now for young guitarists.  Pretty to look at of course.  

[Raph]

Sky, that sounds pretty good! But it feels too airy and distant for my taste. Are you adding reverb, or recording with a mic set far away?

[Sky]

I just put on some scratch verb quickly, it's not the final mix (or even the final recording, probably). I know it sounds horrid, but I'm trying not to blurt too much negativity about stuff these days 

The

one from last year

is what I'm shooting for mix-wise, I like the sound of it. It's fun to see the progress I've made in a year, too. It's funny how much better the crappy $70 guitar sounds recorded, the new guitar is much nicer live.

[Dren]

Complete newb here.  Bit the bullet and got an electric guitar (Rogue,) and got Rocksmith to basically have fun and see how far I can get.  I have to say it has been really fun and is its own kind of therapy  after working at a desk all day.

Since I'm completely starting from nothing, I'm going very slow with the first few songs.  It took me a bit to figure out that I have to go into the song selection and then play with the Riff practice mode thing.  Otherwise, the game was going too fast for me to really learn anything.  You progress to new gigs and songs, but that doesn't really mean you can play it.  The bar for "succeeding" at a song is really low. 

I choose to use the "leveller" mode to step me through the sections of the songs I select.  It quickly finds where I'm competent and then pushes me to get better with practice.

Fun songs, playing along with music, and there are some fun arcade style games to work on finger-play and selective techniques.  Videos and how-to's enough for even a pre-novice like me starting no idea how to play. 

I got it for PS3, but I may also get it on Steam (my first thought.)  PS3 has really long load screens and saving, which gets annoying.  Getting around the screens is awkward too, but workable now that I know where everything is. Biggest issue is I have to completely stop to interact with the gamepad at times...not sure what else could be done there.

My biggest complaint is not having the real notes being displayed at all.  I can read music (piano and violin) and it would be good to relate what I'm playing to sheet music somehow.  I figure I'll just have to add that learning on my own manually at some point.

[Sky]

Sounds good. Shame about not showing the notes, that's a missed opportunity. Even to have it enabled as a less graphically fancy option or something.

[Miguel]

Here is a test recording I did with a Neumann U87 and a friends acoustic guitar.  I don't know the brand, but it is a solid spruce top and mahogany sides and bottom.  It has a very tight and controlled sound I think.  Strings are medium gauge phosphor-broze.

http://www.musicalsparks.com/images/u87/u87_guitar.mp3

This is not a raw sound file:  I did my normal "acoustic guitar only" mix tweaks:  high-passed it at 80Hz, dipped 3dB out of the 1.5kHz range (spanning about 800Hz to about 2.2kHz), and boosted everything above 3kHz by 1.5dB to bring out a bit more of the pick attack.  There is also a slight amount of compression (very little...this track still has over 15dB of dynamic range!) and a bit of room sized reverb.  Mike is about 2 feet away right at about the 12th fret, pointed at the space between the sound hole and the beginning of the neck.

[Sky]

Very pretty.

It should be for that mic! I should probably upgrade the SM57 I'm recording with...

[Nebu]

Suck it Guitar Hero!

This is what happens when you hand a kid an instrument instead of a video game... (ok, a really REALLY talented kid).

[Sky]

We had this kid that used to play around back in the late 80s, early 90s. Really kicked ass at playing blues guitar even though he was just a little kid.

You may have heard of him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWsDen3la50

[Selby]

(ok, a really REALLY talented kid).

Yeah no matter how much I practice I would never be that good.  Some people have talent and the rest of us have to make due with whatever skill we can eke out along the way.

[Nebu]

Yeah no matter how much I practice I would never be that good.  Some people have talent and the rest of us have to make due with whatever skill we can eke out along the way.

I don't know.  When I was playing 8+ hours a day I got pretty freaking good.  It's really about time and muscle memory.  Do the same thing 10,000 times and it becomes ingrained.  The hurdle you have to get over is the thinking about where to go next.  Once you have that down, your speed increases dramatically. 

[Sky]

It's a few vectors. You've got to have drive, period. You've got to put in the hours of practice. You have to undergo disciplined study, even if it's informal (listening or jamming with blues artists, for instance, vs classical education).

When I was playing every day with the band, we got good. But it was also a little limited because we were an underground metal act in an area with almost no other metal acts doing what we were doing.

When I went to college and was surrounded by every stripe of music and most of the classes were performance-based, and then I'd go home and do homework (more performance, lots of writing), and THEN work on band stuff...I was playing 8-10 hours/day, from 8am to after midnight....every day. I got so good I hit several of my physical/genetic limitations. It was a scary moment when I hit the hard cap of being a bassist with short fingers. I could still do amazing stuff and adapt, but you learn there are just some things that are physically impossible.

Anyway. If you listen to the Smokin' Joe clip I linked, he even talks about having the drive when he was a kid. Without that and years of hard playing, you'll never be much. Most 'talent' is just years of practice. I'm not very talented, I have to work extra hard to get what success I do at my endeavors. That's why I encourage everyone to pick up an instrument, the one that you always love to hear the most. With that love of the sound to drive you, it's just a bit of disciplined practice to get to an enjoyable level of proficiency. Most people that complain they can't do it lack drive or discipline.

(These days I lack both :( )

[Dren]

Been playing about 1.5 hours a day on Rocksmith.  I have always respected players, but now I'm in awe.

1.  My finger tips are either in pain, number, or deadened depending on how long it has been since my last session with the game.
2.  I still just can't pick fast enough most times.  I don't have the muscle memory at all so I have to think my way through everything.  Starting to get a glimpse of better things to come.....sort of.
3.  I find myself thinking about songs I hear on the radio and how cool or uncool they are based on the amount of guitar in them.
4.  I feel dirty on days I don't play (much like when I don't exercise....)
5.  My biggest pet peeve is my inability to stop hitting or brushing other strings, not being able to stop tones when I should, or carry them, slides, .....

Yeah, I'm in awe....so much work and dedication.

[Trippy]

Been playing about 1.5 hours a day on Rocksmith.  I have always respected players, but now I'm in awe.

1.  My finger tips are either in pain, number, or deadened depending on how long it has been since my last session with the game.

You can get a grip strength gadget and/or a tool to help build calluses if your fingertips are hurting too much. Examples:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/ruff-rider-ruff-grip-callus-builder
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/planet-waves-varigrip-hand-exerciser

You can also use lighter gauge strings and/or lower your string action to make it easier on your fingers.

2.  I still just can't pick fast enough most times.  I don't have the muscle memory at all so I have to think my way through everything.  Starting to get a glimpse of better things to come.....sort of.

Most beginning guitar lessons usually have you learning some basic chord shapes and basic strumming patterns first. Rocksmith is weird to me, as somebody who can already fiddle around a bit on a guitar, in that it starts you off teaching these weird hybrid single note rhythm/melody lines. Not sure that's a good way to learn proper guitar technique. In any event, it can help to learn one hand well before learning the other, instead of trying to learn both at once. I.e. for a song learn the fingerings first (especially the hand shifts) and don't worry so much about the picking the strings in time or learning the string pickings first and then learning the fingerings.

Edit: comma movement

[Raph]

Dren, please do do not get fooled into thinking that speed is how you determine guitar playing skill! It is a component, for sure, but far from the be all end all. Guitar games emphasize lots of notes because that's the easiest thing for a computer to measure.

Playing less notes well is just as important.

[Sky]

1.  My finger tips are either in pain, number, or deadened depending on how long it has been since my last session with the game.

Welcome to hell. The good news is, it goes away. The bad news is, the best way to get through it is to get through it. At this stage in your development, a week break could be enough to go back to square 1. Stick with it, but it sounds like you'll need to back off a bit. Keep up the frequency of sessions, but make them shorter. I wouldn't recommend the stuff Trippy did, but I'm not a gadget guy :)

2.  I still just can't pick fast enough most times.  I don't have the muscle memory at all so I have to think my way through everything.  Starting to get a glimpse of better things to come.....sort of.

This is kind of like playing along with albums. At some point, you need to back off and learn to play things slowly. If there is a complex or difficult section you can't play to speed, break it down into pieces and learn them slowly and individually. Then string them together slowly. Then work on bringing it up to speed. Clean playing is better than fast playing. This last sentence is 'do as I say, not as I did', because I totally played fast and sloppy when I was a kid.

3.  I find myself thinking about songs I hear on the radio and how cool or uncool they are based on the amount of guitar in them.

Bah. Listen to Kofi Burbridge from the Derek Trucks Band hammer on his flute. Listen to horn sections. Check out violinists and mando, banjo guys. Guitar is awesome but only listening to guitar players is very limiting.

4.  I feel dirty on days I don't play (much like when I don't exercise....)

For me, it's like a junkie withdrawal. I keep a cheap classical in a closet in the server room at work. Then I have to 'go work on the server'. Once I bang out a few songs, I can make it through the day.

5.  My biggest pet peeve is my inability to stop hitting or brushing other strings, not being able to stop tones when I should, or carry them, slides, .....

That's another learned skill that at this point in your journey you're going to have to really pay attention to and pick up tricks to work around. The good news is, you will pick these tricks up and it will be your natural playing style. The bad news, it's a bit different for every player. Depends on how you pick, hold the guitar, your hand size and shape, etc. Watch guys who are similar in these things.

Some things to be aware of in general. Deaden strings: on the left hand, you'll want to touch adjacent strings to deaden them. Whether it's a finger on a fretted note touching an adjacent string (lightly) or a non-fretting finger gently resting on the adjacent string(s). With your right hand, deadening strings is actually a great technique called palm muting. See: awesome heavy metal riffs, but it's used in every kind of music to gain a percussive staccato attack. You'll also get a feel for resting your right palm on the strings for rest notes.

Yeah, I'm in awe....so much work and dedication.
Go back and read how much I tear myself up about my playing. I've been playing guitar and bass on and off since 1984. It's a never ending journey of self-improvement, which is pretty awesome. On the upside, you WILL get better if you stick with it. 1.5 hours a day is a great start towards being a good guitarist. Kudos to you, the first year is BY FAR the most difficult. And it's a skill that will provide enjoyment for you (and hopefully others!) for the rest of your life.