WoW v EQ2

[Viin]

WoW's current non-instance group combat mechanic (everybody hits one button once and the thing dies in 2.5 seconds) is the end-all-be-all of gaming, because only that is "skill based" gaming.  The only other choice is EQ1.  Allah be praised.

Just curious, but whats wrong with instanced for-group zones?

- Viin

[El Gallo]

Just curious, but whats wrong with instanced for-group zones?

- Viin

Nothing, they are great.  There aren't enough of them, mid-level ones are not challenging enough, and they aren't rewarding enough, xp wise, compared to mindless Dreadlands-style soloing in trivial outdoor zones.

[Viin]

Nothing, they are great.  There aren't enough of them, mid-level ones are not challenging enough, and they aren't rewarding enough, xp wise, compared to mindless Dreadlands-style soloing in trivial outdoor zones.

Well, hopefully Blizzard will fix that before launch. After all, they still have awhile. I've always found it funny when we place so much weight on parts of a game that more than likely aren't set in stone yet, after all, it is still in beta.

Honestly, if this is the worst issue WoW has then they are a sight better off than any other MMO to date; and I do have faith that Blizzard will correct this. They haven't done too poorly of a job yet!

 - Viin

Edit: fixed my bad typing

[Morfiend]

WoW might not be a huge leap into the infinate, and it might not be a revolution ... but it is a serious attempt at improovement over SOE's previous efforts.  For that I applaud.  Will it be my favorite game in 6 months?  Maybe not.  But it has the potential for it.  That's the most hope I've had for a game in a long time.

This is almost exactually how I feel about the game. *claps*.

[Riggswolfe]

"I want more group content, more challenging group content, I want groups to get xp at least as fast as soloers do, maybe a Diablo-like mechanic where mobs dynamically increase in challenge and reward when encountered by a group would be a possible way of effectuating these goals without affecting soloers one bit" means the same thing as "I want to require a group to step into the god damn game world."  

WoW's current non-instance group combat mechanic (everybody hits one button once and the thing dies in 2.5 seconds) is the end-all-be-all of gaming, because only that is "skill based" gaming.  The only other choice is EQ1.  Allah be praised.

Frankly, it sounds like WoW is not what you are looking for. I happen to enjoy it just as it is with a few minor complaints. That fact that soloing is possible in the low-mid level game is NOT one of my complaints. And frankly, I have done plenty of grouping in non-instanced areas and found plenty of group worthy challenges. Perhaps you are just too uber for the  game. Leave it alone for us mortals thanks.

[El Gallo]

Honestly, if this is the worst issue WoW has then they are a sight better off than any other MMO to date; and I do have faith that Blizzard will correct this.

I agree that WOW is better off than any other MMO, I look forward to playing it.  The fact that it is so solid is what makes the pimples so aggrivating!  I also think that they will fix this issue, probably by giving groups an xp bonus and adding a few more difficult areas.  My only real long term concern is whether or not Blizzard can make enough content via expansions or patches to keep me happy.

There are already a few non-instanced areas with lots of "elite" mobs, if they were set up a little better (some of them are kind of "blah" now), and there were a lot more of them, that would go a long ways toward solving this issue (and that's probably easier to do than make new instances, or adding some Diablo-type mechanic that makes regular mobs harder and more rewarding when attacked by a group).  Another way to fix it would be to change the xp curve and some of the combat calcs.  Right now, killing a monster 4 levels above you is WAY WAY WAY harder than killing an even level monster, even in a group, mostly because you almost never hit it and almost never land spells on it, but is only worth a little bit more xp.  If they were worth a lot more xp, and make it more possible to hit and land spells on it a bit more often, a group could kill monsters of a much higher level than a soloist could, and they'd get more xp for doing so.  Soloists could go on exactly as they are today.

However, doing either of these things would obviously destroy the solo game and convert WoW into EQ1 pre-Kunark :p

[Riggswolfe]

However, doing either of these things would obviously destroy the solo game and convert WoW into EQ1 pre-Kunark :p

I definitely agree.

[Kageru]

If the monsters auto-inflate in response to a group, what's the motivation for gimps to group at all? If they change elite balance enough to make them challenging to an outdoors group they'll be fatal in instances. If they change them just a little they'll still be trivial and become grind fodder to outdoor groups (or advanced soloers) as they were in the past.

I think it's safe to say blizzard intends to allow soloing to 60. Which means outdoor content can be trivialized with a group. Which in turn means that anyone can reach 60. But I don't think blizzard really cares. If my suspicions are right and they plan on having the real game start at 60 it just doesn't matter. From that point of view any sub-60 instance is more of a training ground, aimed at the decently skilled players (after all, the true ubers are going to zoom past all this content anyway).

The reward on these zones will be intertesting to balance, it should be enough to tempt all but the most dedicated soloer to give them a try.  Of course I'm not sure I'd trust this guys analysis of reward, as a power gamer he's likely to only be interested in fast XP. The idea that the content, plus the gear and quests contained within, might actually be the reward probably escapes him.

At the end of the day I still plan on doing every instance I can, because they sound challenging and fun, but why get bothered that some other group are being gimps? That would only be valid if you think hitting the level cap means something other than time invested, which certainly a lot of ubers wish was the case.

(Of course this might not be blizzards plan and more my wishful thinking. And if it is they still have to show they can generate enough content and motivations for a wide range of player skills once levels are capped. So i'm not saying they haven't screwed up, just that i'm not convinced by his arguments.)

[Riggswolfe]

As far as late game goes Blizzard says it'll be:

PvP
Raids
Hero classes.

Raids and PvP are semi-implemented. Hero classes are not going to be in at release from what I hear.

[Venkman]

From that point of view any sub-60 instance is more of a training ground, aimed at the decently skilled players (after all, the true ubers are going to zoom past all this content anyway).

I hope it's more than that. sub-60 training ground games suck for the vast majority of players that'll never get there. And if the game allows the vast majority of players to get there, then your sub-60 game becomes the very joke the sub-50 game is in SB: a bunch of macroers travelling a chain of static spawn points, taking turns with the guild gold farmer who's paying the merchant/building fees.

WoW seemed like much more than that. I'm hoping they aim the majority of effort in the mid-game. That comes early enough that it'll be the necessary prod to get the just-about-bored back into the swing of things to eventually hit the end game.

[Righ]

Hero classes are not going to be in at release from what I hear.

When somebody says they will patch in the high level content later, I get a sinking feeling of deja-vu.

[Riggswolfe]

When somebody says they will patch in the high level content later, I get a sinking feeling of deja-vu.

As do I, however, I must admit that what they have in so far is good enough that hero classes is just gravy.

You know, I was looking at an EQ2 post and Schild's 3 goals for an MMO came up

Combat
Social
Economy

The only one of these I feel WoW has any failings in is the social. There is guild support, and things like the tabards are nice. But....I want houses. I want trophies and furniture. I want guildhalls. This is one area that EQ2 may have an advantage in, is having the houses and such. That and it sounds like they have some really creative quests.

[Kageru]

Drawing gameplay correlations between shadowbane and WoW seems like a bit of a stretch to me, but oh well.

I don't think they can. The disadvantage of their levelling curve means that trying to build up a critical mass of content at anything other than end game is bad resource allocation. It seemed to me they have one instance per faction per level range which supports that this is their plan. Apparently Tigole described their content as "top heavy" (I didn't see the original quote though) which would also support it.

[Kageru]

Are guild-halls in EQ2? I thought the only guild rewards they had working were mounts, and that people were already bitching about that.

[Riggswolfe]

Are guild-halls in EQ2? I thought the only guild rewards they had working were mounts, and that people were already bitching about that.

Dunno. I'll let you know if/when I play EQ2. Ask Schild. :) I know housing is in, and it sounds pretty cool. I don't know however, what all can be done with houses. I know WoW plans to have houses, but it'll be post release.

[ahoythematey]

Hearing Blizzard talk about hero classes reminds me of the pre-1.1 D2 patch anticipation.  Excuse me while I strain to keep my eyes from rolling out of their sockets.

[El Gallo]

If the monsters auto-inflate in response to a group, what's the motivation for gimps to group at all?

I don't really care what the actual "gimps" do, and I think it is great that real, live dedicated soloers (people who prefer soloing, or can only get on a half hour at a time, or whatever) can level up to 60.  I want them to stop penalizing grouping.  Right now, grouping is MUCH slower xp than soloing is.  So it isn't just "gimps" and dedicated soloers who solo all the time, it's just about every single "I want to hear the ding" gamer, which is roughly everybody.


Now maybe you are right, and they think that every inch of content in the game is just some extended tutorial, and they plan on patching in the entire real game later.  But that is AO-caliber frightening and, anyway, if the vast majority of your endgame is group based (raids and PvP, we don't know about heroes yet), why would your 1-4 month long tutorial rap your fingers with a ruler every time you join a group?

[Not directed at you]
In CoH, the Holy Grail of Casual Gaming, don't good groups get xp faster than soloists do?  Is CoH a carbon copy of pre-Kunark EQ as well?

[Merusk]

In CoH, the Holy Grail of Casual Gaming, don't good groups get xp faster than soloists do?  Is CoH a carbon copy of pre-Kunark EQ as well?

Forthe most part yes, but it's because good groups can defeat more mobs in a faster amount of time than MOST soloists.   I get better XP per mob soloing missions as my scrapper than doing groups.  BUT, when I duo with my wife's blaster we complete missions much faster, even though there's more mobs in the missions.

 The faster XP comes because of group dynamics. Other classes shore up the spots that you're weak in, creathing a force more powerful than the whole, which is how it's supposed to work in a GOOD class-based system.

The FoH poster was right, WoW doesn't teach how to work well in a group.  It'll take MMO vets to do that, or a lot of time working on instances for those D2 players who haven't MMO'd before.

When I was doing the stress test a large portion of the problem was that the people I wound up grouping with weren't MMO vets.  They were B-net folks and D2 players.  They attached each encounter like they were soloing and we wound up wiping.  When I took a moment and described what they should be doing, things went smoother.

 The few times I did group with MMO vets we worked well and were able to take on mobs 4-5 levels above us.  (i.e. I was able to complete a level 17 quest at level 12 when I met a 13 warrior/ druid wife/ husband team) Now, I know they've made several tweaks since stress test, so I don't know if you're still able to hit higher level mobs as well as we managed.

Saying grouping is PUNISHED isn't right, though.  You're no more punished for grouping than you were in EQ, since it splits XP.  People just aren't pushing themselves to try higher level and harder mobs in groups, since soloing all the time teaches you that anything higher than you WILL kill you.

[jpark]

My singular hope for EQII is that while incomplete it will offer new (dysfunctional?) gameplay elements like the combat wheel and because it is less solo friendly than WoW/CoH, will offer tougher challenges for group combat.

I like the threat of a party wipe that causes panic in a guild/group (where the hell is that death penalty?).

CoH is great but I equate it to WoW:  solo friendly MMORPGs make the content a bit too easy for me and the death penalty could be harsher (yes I am serious).  

/duck

I know this is the internet - but I can almost hear HeamishM scream at this position :P

[Kageru]

The real problem comes down to whether you want to support soloing as a viable playstyle. EQ2 pretty much lied about it, so they're fine, but WoW seems to be taking it seriously. Adding a group XP bonus not only upsets the soloers it lets groups profit off mobs that are underbalanced in relation to even a moderately skilled group. So I think they're hoping loot will be the draw for instances, but of course all powergamers regard sub-60 loot as transitory and as such are simply watching the XP.

They have a related problem with instance grinding. If the XP for going through an instance is great, and multiplied by a group bonus, then people will form grind groups and just farm the entrance. Because once you've broken and stabilizied an environment, covering enough spawns to keep you busy, there's no danger or challenge to it. I'm pretty sure this was what the rest system was meant to fix but they wimped out on that... sadly. It probably would have fixed the outdoors grind group threat too.

[Riggswolfe]

I have played WoW til the late game. (50s). My typical gameplay goes like this:

Solo green and some yellow quests
Group for yellow/red/elite quests

As I leveled I noticed the curve gradually changing. In the early levels it was solo the vast majority of the time except for instances and the harder quests.

So...my time spread was like this for levels 1-20ish:
Solo: 80%
Group: 20%

Now..as I got higher level I noticed things changing. Even outdoor quests were becoming more difficult.

Time spread for levels 20ish to 40ish:

Solo: 60%
Group: 40%

This scaled gradually from the low 20s to the low 40s. The closer I got to 40 the less often I was able to solo. I rarely required a full group unless it was an instance, most of the time it was a duo or maybe three of us.

Now...post 40. My gameplay post 40 has been that I need at least 1 other person for most gameplay. I mean, I can cherry pick lone mobs if I wish, but most quests, indoors and out, need a group.

My primary is a warrior, so keep that in mind.

[AcidCat]

Personally, from the time I first saw screenshots and read about the game, WoW has always appealed to me more. Simply because one of the most important things to me in a game like this is immersion, and suspension of disbelief, and connection with a character and a world. WoW just had so much more character, and atmosphere, and style. The classes and races were interesting and had variety, I loved the look of the game.

Having had the opportunity to beta test EQ2, I feel I certainly gave it a fair try, regardless of how uninvolved the screenshots had left me. I got my evil little gnome mage to a level 10 Sorcerer before I uninstalled the game. I know, surely that's not enough time to properly judge an MMO - maybe if I was writing some kind of official review. But by that time I knew all I needed. The game world and characters were drab, dull, and didn't pique my imagination in the slightest. None of the spells or abilities up to that level had been interesting. None of the quests or interactions in the world were compelling. And the lame loading times and instant-travel bell system only served to further disconnect me from the world. I just couldn't get into it at all, I found the game an extreme bore.

So while I still have yet to actually play WoW, I'm really hoping my expectations, from obsessively poring over the forums and other information and screens, hold as true as my expectations for EQ2 turned out to be.

[Riggswolfe]

I officially canceled my EQ2 preorder today. I'm still slightly interested but reading the beta forums, both here and the official ones have led me to believe that it is not the game for me.

I still want to try it, I'm just not sure I am willing to spend $50 at this point in time based on blind faith it'll be a good game. I'm starting to get a feeling in my gut that it'll be another SW:G. Beautiful to look at but not fun to play. Some aspects to it sound really cool, like the quests Schild has described. I don't know, guess I'm still torn. I may change my mind again and re-preorder.

[Viin]

I officially canceled my EQ2 preorder today. I'm still slightly interested but reading the beta forums, both here and the official ones have led me to believe that it is not the game for me.

Good for you! Stick it to The Man! ;)

I still want to try it, I'm just not sure I am willing to spend $50 at this point in time based on blind faith it'll be a good game. I'm starting to get a feeling in my gut that it'll be another SW:G. Beautiful to look at but not fun to play. Some aspects to it sound really cool, like the quests Schild has described. I don't know, guess I'm still torn. I may change my mind again and re-preorder.

If you don't mind the Evil Gamespy (tm) having your information, you could signup for a Fileplanet subscription and try to get into the EQ2 beta through that. That's actually how I got into the WoW stress test, so sometimes good things do come to those who give evil corporations money. :)

 - Viin
 "Retarder, Inflatable, Air"

[Signe]

Tomorrow is the last day for the Fileplanet beta give away.  They have been giving 1500 away each day over the last couple days and it's over on Sunday.  Evidently, its a total cock up (well, at least for the punter).  Extreme lag on both the EQ2 Vault site and the Fileplanet site.  It's took approximately 4 or 5 minutes for the invites to be depleted, and many couldn't even get to the page due to constant errors.  You had to watch the EQ2 vault site for a 10 minute warning as they would not publish the times that the contest starts.   As a result, people just constantly refresh the page, giving IGN mucho hits so they can rack up the bucks, and laugh hysterically as frustration and outrage ensues.  On Friday they announced the contest about 6 hours or so before they released the keys.

You would have to be a drooling nutter to try and get a beta invite this way.  Save yourself the frustration... either buy the game on release or wait a year or so and try the 7 day free trial.

Sticky: Keys Are Gone!
[Post A Comment] - Print News | Mail News
Wow, that was pretty insane! All 1500 keys gone in around 5 minutes! Be sure to key your browser glued to EQ2Vault tomorrow for another change. We will let you know a little before hand so you can be prepared!


For Fileplanet Customer Service, please visit Fileplanet CS



-- -1313-Evil_Homer @ Sat 23 Oct 2004


Sticky: Beta Keys in 10 Minutes!
[Post A Comment] - Print News | Mail News
Pssst, hey you...can you keep a secret? Well, in 10 minutes (11:00AM PST) FilePlanet will be giving away 1500 more EverQuest II Beta Keys, so be prepared!! Yesterday they were gone in a flash!

-- -1313-Evil_Homer @ Sat 23 Oct 2004


Sticky: Friday's Fileplanet Keys Gone! Two Days Left!
Print News | Mail News
UPDATE!!! Keys have all been distributed for Friday! (As a reminder, check EQ2 Vault Saturday and Sunday, as we will be posting the exact time when the keys are ready on Fileplanet each day!)

For Fileplanet Customer Service, please visit Fileplanet CS

-- Deathstryker @ Sat 23 Oct 2004


Sticky: Fileplanet to give away 4500 beta keys!
Print News | Mail News
Fileplanet has 4500 beta keys to release, and they are working with EQ2 Vault to release them! Today, keep an eye on EQ2Vault and the Fileplanet site for the time when the keys will be released. They released 1500 on Friday, and will release 1500 Saturday and 1500 Sunday. For Friday's release time, EQ2 Vault posted a message asking you to watch Fileplanet 10 minutes prior to the keys being made available. However, for Saturday and Sunday's key release times, you'll need to be monitoring EQ2 Vault solely, as only we will be announcing when the keys will go active! Enjoy the huge promotion, and good luck getting into beta!

(Just a note, this promotion is open and available only to FilePlanet subscribers)

Brilliant way to get hits on your site.  Lousy way to treat your subscribers.  It seems that many IGN users have humiliation fetishes.  It was all terribly amusing.

[Riggswolfe]

Good for you! Stick it to The Man! ;)

No man sticking. Mostly just the realities of my life. I suspect that EQ2 will require more time investment when I logon than say WoW or COH. That said, if any man deserves sticking it is SOE.

If you don't mind the Evil Gamespy (tm) having your information, you could signup for a Fileplanet subscription and try to get into the EQ2 beta through that. That's actually how I got into the WoW stress test, so sometimes good things do come to those who give evil corporations money. :)

 - Viin
 "Retarder, Inflatable, Air"

They've had it for a long time. I keep forgetting to cancel my account, then something comes along where I want to download and I use it so decide not to cancel it.

Really my best and perhaps only chance for an EQ2 beta resides in this site. If not I'll wait and see how players here feel in the first weeks or so of release. On a side note, three out of four of my RL friends who play MMOs want to play WoW and that also has an impact. (The fourth wants to play but his wife literally won't let him. She runs a DAOC guild and has said they're not leaving DAOC since they don't have the money to spend. Nevermind that he is the one who brings home the paycheck. Whole other story there.)

[El Gallo]

 The faster XP comes because of group dynamics. Other classes shore up the spots that you're weak in, creathing a force more powerful than the whole, which is how it's supposed to work in a GOOD class-based system.
. . .
Saying grouping is PUNISHED isn't right, though.  You're no more punished for grouping than you were in EQ, since it splits XP.  People just aren't pushing themselves to try higher level and harder mobs in groups, since soloing all the time teaches you that anything higher than you WILL kill you.

Nice post.  I don't want to get into semantics, but the xp calculations are different.  In EQ your xp in a group is basically {[base xp] * [zone xpmodifier] * [(very large)yellow/red con bonus] * [(hugenormous)group xp bonus that gets larger as your group gets larger]} / [number of people in group].  In WoW, your group xp appears to be [base xp] / [number of people in group].

So it isn't only that average soloists get better xp than average groups because there is no strong incentive to group and learn group skills.  It's that good (and maybe average) soloists get better xp than the most highly skilled groups in the game because of the way xp works.

I think the real culprits here are the lack of a group bonus and (especially) the lack of a significant xp bonus for killing higher-level mobs (note that the latter would benefit really good soloers too).  The more I think about it, the more I think that the problem is that WoW gives the highest xp rewards to the easiest, most boring gameplay: farming easy-to-kill "light blues" in safe, outdoor zones.  WoW xp advancement is almost pure time = reward right now because there is no benefit to trying anything that low-skilled players can't do easily anyway.  

As for instance grinding, I don't really see it as much of a problem.  If some players would rather xp by grouping in instances and other would rather xp by solo killing or doing solo collect/kill quests outdoors, that's fine by me.  The instances are the best part of WoW, IMO anyway, and I'd love to see more of a carrot to get people to go there.  Right now doing instances before 60 just slows you down.  Even if you can "break" spawns, grouping in a level-appropriate instance is still at least as challenging on the whole as outdoor soloing.  But if that is a risk v reward problem, you could perhaps solve it by having large chunks of instances on the same (longer) respawn timer, rather than each mob on an shorter individual timer or something like that, so you always have to "re-break".  Also note that the bosses who drop the fat loots don't ever respawn unless you respawn the entire instance, so I would think that a lot of "instance grind" groups would run instances from the beginning to the end repeatedly.

[MrHat]

 The faster XP comes because of group dynamics. Other classes shore up the spots that you're weak in, creathing a force more powerful than the whole, which is how it's supposed to work in a GOOD class-based system.
. . .
Saying grouping is PUNISHED isn't right, though.  You're no more punished for grouping than you were in EQ, since it splits XP.  People just aren't pushing themselves to try higher level and harder mobs in groups, since soloing all the time teaches you that anything higher than you WILL kill you.

Nice post.  I don't want to get into semantics, but the xp calculations are different.  In EQ your xp in a group is basically {[base xp] * [zone xpmodifier] * [(very large)yellow/red con bonus] * [(hugenormous)group xp bonus that gets larger as your group gets larger]} / [number of people in group].  In WoW, your group xp appears to be [base xp] / [number of people in group].

So it isn't only that average soloists get better xp than average groups because there is no strong incentive to group and learn group skills.  It's that good (and maybe average) soloists get better xp than the most highly skilled groups in the game because of the way xp works.

I think the real culprits here are the lack of a group bonus and (especially) the lack of a significant xp bonus for killing higher-level mobs (note that the latter would benefit really good soloers too).  The more I think about it, the more I think that the problem is that WoW gives the highest xp rewards to the easiest, most boring gameplay: farming easy-to-kill "light blues" in safe, outdoor zones.  WoW xp advancement is almost pure time = reward right now because there is no benefit to trying anything that low-skilled players can't do easily anyway.  

As for instance grinding, I don't really see it as much of a problem.  If some players would rather xp by grouping in instances and other would rather xp by solo killing or doing solo collect/kill quests outdoors, that's fine by me.  The instances are the best part of WoW, IMO anyway, and I'd love to see more of a carrot to get people to go there.  Right now doing instances before 60 just slows you down.  Even if you can "break" spawns, grouping in a level-appropriate instance is still at least as challenging on the whole as outdoor soloing.  But if that is a risk v reward problem, you could perhaps solve it by having large chunks of instances on the same (longer) respawn timer, rather than each mob on an shorter individual timer or something like that, so you always have to "re-break".  Also note that the bosses who drop the fat loots don't ever respawn unless you respawn the entire instance, so I would think that a lot of "instance grind" groups would run instances from the beginning to the end repeatedly.

You are right Gallo.  The huge thing I noticed when killing Mob's in WoW was the very minor difference in exp between the different con mobs.

As a warlock, I had an imbalanced fear spell.  I used to couple this w/ range attacks from my pet to kill higher level mobs.  They (at that low level) would award about 58 exp.  Even con would reward 54exp and I would only use half my mana.

If I wanted to see one thing change, it would be upping the experience rewarded by higher level mobs.  Or even gimping the exp rewarded by lower level mobs.

And Battlegrounds.  Never forget Battlegrounds.

[jpark]

On a superficial note - it would be great if unlike WoW EQ2 would consider colors for its terrain beyond black and grey.

It's depressing.

[HaemishM]

CoH is great but I equate it to WoW:  solo friendly MMORPGs make the content a bit too easy for me and the death penalty could be harsher (yes I am serious).  

/duck

I know this is the internet - but I can almost hear HeamishM scream at this position :P

I won't scream. I will just say...

Die in a level fire.

[Sky]

If you need a harsher death penalty than a game delivers, I've got a suggestion. When you die in this game, and aren't properly punished, slam your genitals in a door. If you caused a group wipeout and are playing EQ2, smash your junk in the door once for every member of the party. For the uberhardcore, a rusty knife in the anus can be punishing, I've heard. You'll definitely regret that death! It'd sure make gameplay tense imo.

In other words, please keep your masochism out of other's gaming ;)

[jpark]

If you need a harsher death penalty than a game delivers, I've got a suggestion. When you die in this game, and aren't properly punished, slam your genitals in a door. If you caused a group wipeout and are playing EQ2, smash your junk in the door once for every member of the party. For the uberhardcore, a rusty knife in the anus can be punishing, I've heard. You'll definitely regret that death! It'd sure make gameplay tense imo.

In other words, please keep your masochism out of other's gaming ;)

That is funny I do admit.

Confessions of abnormality:  in EQ when I role played my Barb warrior all of level 30 (did not get much higher) I would never retreat from a fight so long as any party member was still engaged in combat.  I died.  A lot.

So by the sound of things for EQII - maybe there should be another thread:

EQ vs. EQII.  Was it worth it?

[Merusk]

EQ2: 4 the win ++ on patching
This one just made me laugh on the WoW forums.

There will be no patch this week. As always, the dev team is working hard on releasing the next patch. However, at this time we do not have a release date and will not announce one until we have more information.

Tyren

It's been what, 3 weeks since the last patch? Oh Blizzard, thou art so clueless in the MMO world it's almost painful.

Nice post. I don't want to get into semantics, but the xp calculations are different. In EQ your xp in a group is basically {[base xp] * [zone xpmodifier] * [(very large)yellow/red con bonus] * [(hugenormous)group xp bonus that gets larger as your group gets larger]} / [number of people in group]. In WoW, your group xp appears to be [base xp] / [number of people in group].

So it isn't only that average soloists get better xp than average groups because there is no strong incentive to group and learn group skills. It's that good (and maybe average) soloists get better xp than the most highly skilled groups in the game because of the way xp works.

Good point.  The whole "significant group bonus" thing I more or less ignored because it was such a recent addition to EQ.  The lack of a bonus on higher level kills in WoW was something I'd noticed but forgotten.  So right, soloing is rewarded more than grouping in WoW because of this more than anything.

The faster XP comes because of group dynamics. Other classes shore up the spots that you're weak in, creathing a force more powerful than the whole

I am a dumbass and meant 'a force more powerful than the parts.' Missed this until ElGallo quoted it. Thank you all for not ripping me apart on it.

[Viin]

EQ2: 4 the win ++ on patching
This one just made me laugh on the WoW forums.

There will be no patch this week. As always, the dev team is working hard on releasing the next patch. However, at this time we do not have a release date and will not announce one until we have more information.

Tyren

It's been what, 3 weeks since the last patch? Oh Blizzard, thou art so clueless in the MMO world it's almost painful.

I'm not convinced this is a mistake. From my experience with SWG I can say that patches often == BAD THINGS(tm). Hopefully they are actually QAing their patches before releasing (thus taking longer to do so), and won't have very many instances of "patch-it-so-fast-your-head-spins-then-patch-the-patch-because-it-broke-twenty-other-things", as seen in SWG. (Though SWG componded every patch: patches that patch patches that broke patches from previous patches).

[HaemishM]

You must not have played Shadowbane, where they combined all 3 of those fuckups into 1.