SWTOR

[eldaec]

Quirky builds = tank mage. Throw in grouping and if you're not FotM, you're a lonely, lonely quirky builder. MMO, such a great genre. Distills everything to it's very essence, sucking the life and enjoyment out of gaming and pooping it into a sock.

Eve avoided tank mages.

A FF style job system would also avoid the problem, albeit with less flexibility for the player.

Both of these have both talent trees and quirky builds.

MtG is an interesting case, in that it dodges the problem by allowing you to build in a limitless number of ways, but rotating the valid abilities available, so as to keep the meta game churning.

[Ollie]

Quirky builds = tank mage. Throw in grouping and if you're not FotM, you're a lonely, lonely quirky builder. MMO, such a great genre. Distills everything to it's very essence, sucking the life and enjoyment out of gaming and pooping it into a sock.

Nice to see you're in no way projecting your own anger and disappointment over the genre's achiever-driven state. No sir, not even a little bit.  

Not that I don't agree with you, though. Take away the linear quest-grinders with rigidly confined character building, and all we're left with is EVE, a couple of ancient relics and the current crop of indie disasters. I'd like to do what Malakili does and just fool around for the sake of invention, but I can't think of any seriously viable newish MMOGs where that wouldn't doom me to a slow and agonizing playing experience.

EDIT: Eldaec to the rescue. Didn't think of MtG at all.

[Ingmar]

In third edition D&D many feats operate like talent trees.

3e feats are actually rather a lot more like talent trees than anything in 4e, yes. 3e feats often have multiple prerequisites, etc., whereas feats in 4e almost never have another feat as a prerequisite.

4e's system is closer to Guild Wars (or MtG in a sense, although GW and MtG are closer to each other than either are to 4e thanks to the whole collection aspect imo) than anything else; you're essentially slotting a fixed number of powers with various recharge rates.

[Malakili]

I'd like to do what Malakili does and just fool around for the sake of invention, but I can't think of any seriously viable newish MMOGs where that wouldn't doom me to a slow and agonizing playing experience.

Yeah, it isn't really viable in many new games.  The only games I've done it in recently are Torchlight, and Dawn of War 2 (where you get to level up your squads and give them different stats/gear, even though its an RTS).  Frankly, in most games it just just dooming yourself to frustration.  I do it far more in pencil and paper when I play it, because if they GM knows there are 4 quirky characters in the party, he can at least balance the encounters around it (which is a huge benefit of having a GM in the first place actually, but thats not my point here really).  There also tends to be a lot more viable alternatives, though 4th edition D&D has definitely cut down on this a lot, which is one of the main reasons I've found it less enjoyable than 3rd.

[Lucas]

Thirteenth explorable planet unveiled:

http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/planets/hoth

[Malakili]

Oh boy! Hoth, a world with nothing on it.  A world so remote the rebel alliance chose to put a base there because no one would ever go there in their right mind.

Seriously though, I understand they are trying to balance pleasing fans with stuff like this, and making a good game, and I'm sure they'll come up with some "good" reason there are enough people and things to do on Hoth to warrant going there.   

The bigger news though is that there are 13 planets, I didn't realize there were so many already.  Thats actually kind of neat.

[Lucas]

Yes, lots of them, even though, given the approach of Bioware to "story" and such, I wouldn't be surprised if, on each planets, there are lots of small quest hubs that send you in private (solo or group) instances similar to Guild Wars (and well, that would be fine enough for me).

[LK]

Planets implies a sense of scale in playable areas that I don't think will be there.

[Soln]

looks like it will be a PvP BG zone, which is interesting since like forever SWG players were asking for *exactly* that.

[stu]

Holy mackerel. Thirteen planets!

I hope it's true that they are treating some of the planets like unique zones for differing gameplay styles. I wouldn't mind seeing a remote planet dedicated to exploration.

[Sheepherder]

looks like it will be a PvP BG zone, which is interesting ironic since like forever SWG players were asking for *exactly* that.

Because Hoth has no business being a PvP zone in an Old Republic game.

[LK]

Hoth seems a logical choice. Mostly barren, uninteresting, and plenty of open space. I bet their environment artists would appreciate creating one giant flat rock! Coming soon: the asteroid where the worm from Empire Strikes Back is.

Despite the fact Hoth is a hellish place to live (ironic choice of words), they are probably going to doll it up, modify it to be Not-Hoth, and put whatever they want there under the pretense that it all went away or was never explained in EU by the time the timeline syncs up with Star Wars.

[Lantyssa]

It's easy to do.  It is a trash planet of wreckage which will be covered by ice and snow by the time of Empire.

[Furiously]

Hoth should be green and thriving. A jungle world of paradise.

I just watched a few trailers for the game and I lost all interest.

[Slayerik]

Hey, 13 planets!



Still completely unmotivated to play this game. I hope I'm wrong and it's the next coming, though.

[eldaec]

Yes, lots of them, even though, given the approach of Bioware to "story" and such, I wouldn't be surprised if, on each planets, there are lots of small quest hubs that send you in private (solo or group) instances similar to Guild Wars (and well, that would be fine enough for me).

I broadly agree, except I'm expecting each planet to have exactly one mission hub/lobby area. Bioware's preference has always been more instead of bigger.

I can still just about see success with some kind of Diablo/GW-pve influenced effort with a metric butt tonne of story dialog tagged on. But every time they release more info or video it invariably makes me wince.

[Triforcer]

I wouldn't get excited about the number of planets.  Each is probably about the size of two WoW zones, at best.  Everything I've read about this game screams that they aren't big on exploration. 

[Cadaverine]

I'm guessing slightly bigger than KotOR zones, but with 10 times more pointless running around.

[Lucas]

I'm guessing slightly bigger than KotOR zones, but with 10 times more pointless running around.

Lol, nice description, and I tend to agree with that ;)

[Malakili]

I'm guessing slightly bigger than KotOR zones, but with 10 times more pointless running around.

Kill ten Sith.

Thanks for killing 10 Sith

Kill 10 Sith Adept.

I hate you.

[Stabs]

I don't get all the disappointment.

Anyone who at this stage is not expecting WoW in Star Wars Land should be slapped with a wet fish.

I'm actually looking forward to it but I refuse to allow myself to become bitter about any lack of innovation. They're not spending $200m to gamble on things like ffa pvp or permadeath.

[Fordel]

If it's actually as good as WoW, then most of us who want to play will be doing the dance of joy.



It won't be as good as WoW.

[Ollie]

You're probably right. If we forget the cinematic cut scenes for a moment, everything we've seen about the core game points to recycling of tried and true mechanics. It also looks weirdly dated somehow, mechanically that is.

I just hope Bioware throws in some non-combat activities. I know some of you hated SimBeru, but at least there you could do something else than inflict mass genocide on the local fauna. I'm not asking for Space Boredom – The Simulator since we already have EVE for that, but something.

You can all laugh when Bioware throws in the planet scanning minigame from Mass Effect 2. 

[Nebu]

Anyone who at this stage is not expecting WoW in Star Wars Land should be slapped with a wet fish.

I'm actually looking forward to it but I refuse to allow myself to become bitter about any lack of innovation. They're not spending $200m to gamble on things like ffa pvp or permadeath.

I understand the safe path of making yet another crappy WoW clone.  It's what the investors want.  I'm still going to be bitter about it.  I'm sick of WoW.  I'm sick of gear grinds.  I'm sick of YOU MUST BE THIS TALL TO RIDE THIS RIDE.  It's been 10 + years of the same crap.

Time to look for a Rogue clone.  Maybe I can name the ascii characters Darth and Luke and get essentially the same experience.   

[Sky]

I don't get all the disappointment.

It's f13. Mocking mmo is standard. Everyone bitching about this game will be buying it at launch.

[eldaec]

I don't get all the disappointment.

It's f13. Mocking mmo is standard. Everyone bitching about this game will be buying it at launch.

Not just buying, we'll all probably be posting about how great it is, there will be a guild called Cat Munchy or something, until about five and a half weeks in we all suddenly notice what a giant turd it is, move the sub forum to the graveyard and start doing the Bioware AUSTIN routine again whenever the game is mentioned.

Oh f13, never change. (seriously, don't)

[eldaec]

Actually we really should start calling f13 guilds Cat Munchy.

[rattran]

No you.

[Ingmar]

If it's actually as good as WoW, then most of us who want to play will be doing the dance of joy.



It won't be as good as WoW.

It will probably have to be better than WoW to get people to dismantle their guilds to move over long-term, too.

[Malakili]

If it's actually as good as WoW, then most of us who want to play will be doing the dance of joy.



It won't be as good as WoW.

It will probably have to be better than WoW to get people to dismantle their guilds to move over long-term, too.

This doesn't strike me as the type of game that is going to get people to do this.  I'm sure lots of WoW guilds will have guilds in SWTOR that they get together and play a few times a week, but given the nature of the game, which seems much more the story and much less about the meta game of loot collecting (which is what most people that have guilds in WoW have them for, at least the ones who would be hesistant to leave based on being so well established in WoW in the first place), I don't see this being a very "primary" game for people.  I keeping coming back to the point that I think this has the potential to be a pretty decent game, but I remain highly skeptical about whether or not it can be a good MMO.

[Ingmar]

(which is what most people that have guilds in WoW have them for, at least the ones who would be hesistant to leave based on being so well established in WoW in the first place)

I think this is exactly wrong, actually. What will make people hesitant to move is the social ties they've established, if a majority of your social group doesn't want to move that makes it very difficult to strike out on your own. Guilds that are founded purely around the meta loot collecting aspect are much, much more likely to dissolve, change games, etc., in my experience.

[Malakili]

(which is what most people that have guilds in WoW have them for, at least the ones who would be hesistant to leave based on being so well established in WoW in the first place)

I think this is exactly wrong, actually. What will make people hesitant to move is the social ties they've established, if a majority of your social group doesn't want to move that makes it very difficult to strike out on your own. Guilds that are founded purely around the meta loot collecting aspect are much, much more likely to dissolve, change games, etc., in my experience.

My thinking is that guilds that exist for purely social ties can easily move between games, because its the people that matter, not the game.   I feel like a pure raiding guild in WoW is less likely to say "hey, lets randomly do this in another game even though we've spent the last three years doing it in this game" whereas a social group can just say "hey, lets play X for a little while instead" since they aren't so invested in the game itself, but rather the people.  At least that was my reasoning.

[Lantyssa]

How often is a pure raiding guild composed of the same members after three years?  A social guild is far more likely to keep individual members around, and thus make the transition as a guild harder.  I'm also considering social guilds to be small 'family' affairs.  There are some which span across multiple games and number in the hundreds of members, but they operate on a different set of principles.

[Kageru]

The hard core raiding guilds will generally stay with the game because they've tied their ego's to it, don't want to rebuild and probably can't convince everyone to move. Unless it's a pretty obvious upgrade all round like EQ to WoW. The "random" guilds are the same because they have no cohesion anyway. But I'm convinced there's quite a large space between those two.

My guilds been together ~10 years now (EQ->WoW->Vanguard->WoW | EQ2) and after the stress of "do we move, do we stay" questions it's now set up to handle multiple MMO's. Though for that to really be tested there needs to be an MMO that actually provokes interest and looks like it will have some longevity.

[Draegan]

Well we're going to have another round of games to try to get people to move.  We had AOC, WAR and Aion and those didn't work.  Now over the next year and a half or so we're going to have SWTOR, Rift, GW2, TERA(lol), FFXIV and I'm probably forgetting one or two (maybe The Secret World).

I think there is a much better chance (I'm not going to even attempt to say if it's a good one or not, but it's a better chance) this time around that we'll get a decent game that will stick.  We're farther removed from WOW's release.  AOC, WAR and Aion all started development after or only just before the release and success of WOW.  We might see a better quality game.  However we might just get another WOW clone.

If I had to put my money on one of these up coming games to be a "success" it would have to be between Rift and GW2 and GW2 is in the "lead".  Of course this is all on developer hype so who the fuck knows because my hunch is based on absolutely nothing except what type of game ArenaNet has made before and some of the people working on Rift.