SWTOR

[Triforcer]

The last three or four posts present a huge problem for SWTOR.

Not to be a broken record, but either choices matter or they don't.  If you are truly stuck with your choices at endgame, its like WoW without respec.  

Picked the dark-aligned light Jedi choices?  Sorry noob, their endgame skills happen to suck for PvP/Raid DPS etc.  And also that means you never got the quest giving the best anti-Agent pvp protection in the game.  

Chased away a companion with wrong dialogue options?  Sorry noob, he was the best for fighting bounty hunters and now you suck in 1v1 Bounty Hunter PvP.

OR- you can respec everything and get any equipment or companions in the endgame with one trip to an NPC.  At which point, you might as well faceroll the choices between you and max level.


What they'll start with is very inflexible respeccing, and when that gives way to nerdrage they put in an end-game change-alignment grind.  After that pisses people off for 6 or 8 months or so and after retention drops, they'll move to full respeccing and finally kill off "story that matters."  

[caladein]

Yea, this is a really very valid point. At what price "immersion". It's sort of uncanny valley as applied to audio. I'd rather have a game with no VO and more choices. But publishers don't think that way.

Or you can go the Mass Effect route and obfuscate the actual lines from the user.  You're still limited to a handful of options but you're sort of experiencing the dialogue as-it-happens instead of in a more academic "Which of these options would I like to say?" which causes less of the "uncanny valley"-effect you're describing.

Fallout 3 for example was virtually unplayable to me as I kept coming across dialogue decisions where I hated each and every option.

[Malakili]

I kept coming across dialogue decisions where I hated each and every option.

I hate when that happens.  I think Fallout 3 did at least a decently good job of being able to just go "Goodbye" most of the time, though not all the time.  Mostly the options seemed to be "I'm a good guy," "I'm indifferent," "I'm a jerk."  This is why I never talk to anyone in that game if I can help it.

[WindupAtheist]

Yeah, I always found that goddamn annoying, too.  Here I am a force-choking lighting-wielding fuckstick and the Jedi Council is trating me like some noob Force user, and not a Sith Lord with a mindwipe who's slipping into old tendencies with glee.  There should have been a *chops council to bits* option many places.

I guarantee that if KOTOR had that kind of freedom I would make a million-page playthrough/fanfic thread where Revan falls out of his bunk on the newbie tutorial ship, hits his head, realizes who he is five seconds into the game, and spends the rest of his time going on a galactic murder spree. I would shoot Carth in the face as soon as he opened his mouth. I would save immediately prior and just do it over and over again for an hour.

[Sheepherder]

Devious evil is always better than psychopathic evil.

Like if you pushed Carth into an airlock and feigned an accident, so that you could still score some sweaty alien headtentacle love.

[Lantyssa]

Generally, I agree with devious being more appealing, however knowing what I do about Carth... he needs to die a thousand vicious deaths.  WUA has a fitting end for him.

[Triforcer]

I don't remember anything about any of the party members in KOTOR- none of them were as memorable as BG2 characters.  Certainly none of them inspired anger in me. 

[Sky]

Srsly, your meds. Take them.

HK47? Carth? The little blue chick and the wookie? Really?

I was afraid Alistair in DA:O was going to be the modern Carth, pleasantly surprised he's funny to have around.

[Draegan]

I liked Alistair's dialogue in the beginning then I sat him for the whole game because I was making a Templar for my main character.

He'll be my tank my next go around.

[Cyrrex]

I don't remember anything about any of the party members in KOTOR- none of them were as memorable as BG2 characters.  Certainly none of them inspired anger in me. 

I know Sky already said it, but you don't remember HK47?  Bastila?  Canderous Fucking Ordo?  Come on, dude. 

I will agree with you that none of them inspired any rage in my, not even Carth.

[Triforcer]

I played it over five years ago.  Now that you say those names, I recall the droid and the girl with the wookiee vaguely but the rset were just interchangeable humans I didn't listen to.  

[Fordel]

The Next Sith class is: http://swtor.com/info/holonet/classes/Imperial-Agent

Seems to be the rough counterpart to the Republic Smuggler, both in play style and theme.


-edit- It seems to use terrain cover 

I'm going to be sad when every ranged class but the Trooper uses cover like that 

[Sky]

Doesn't the trooper compensate with the bunnyhop skill?

Carth bugged me a bit, but Carth 2 in Mass Effect bothered me more. Sat him ASAP and that's why I expected Carth 3 in DA:O.

[WindupAtheist]

How can anyone not hate Carth's filthy reeking guts? He flees like a coward, leaving Mission to die at the hands of two Sith. By which I mean Revan and Bastila, of course. Have none of you ever done a dark side playthrough? Shooting in the face is too good for that stuttering emo douchebag. I want to stalk him through the jungle with a bowie knife, then gut him alive and leave him for the animals.

Also, Bastila was the hottest chick in any game ever. At least once she quit being a prim and proper Jedi and gave in to her inner Sith slut. Forget all the giant-boobed half-naked whores in other games, all Bastila had to do was call me "mahstuh" in that English accent a couple of times and I was fucking sold.

[Kageh]

I bet that once this game is live, the class distribution is going to look like this: Jedi 40%, Sith Warrior 30%, Bounty Hunter 10%, all other classes 10%.

[Cyrrex]

I bet that once this game is live, the class distribution is going to look like this: Jedi 40%, Sith Warrior 30%, Bounty Hunter 10%, all other classes 10%.

I agree, except with all of the percentages you indicated, which are wrong.

[Kageh]

You mean with me stupidly overlooking they don't add up to 100%  or are you assuming a totally different spread?

[AutomaticZen]

More Sith than Jedi.

[Fordel]

Just means more Trooper drops for me!

[Kageh]

More Sith than Jedi.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit myself, but I somehow doubt it. I think that as far as classic Star Wars goes, more people would roleplay a Luke Skywalker type rather than Vader. And the new trilogy didn't exactly make him more popular.

[Ratman_tf]

But I was going to go to Toshi Station to pick up some power converters!

[Montague]

More Sith than Jedi.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit myself, but I somehow doubt it. I think that as far as classic Star Wars goes, more people would roleplay a Luke Skywalker type rather than Vader. And the new trilogy didn't exactly make him more popular.

Force Choke and Force Lightning never goes out of style.

[Kovacs]

More Sith than Jedi.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit myself, but I somehow doubt it. I think that as far as classic Star Wars goes, more people would roleplay a Luke Skywalker type rather than Vader. And the new trilogy didn't exactly make him more popular.

Of the 1,000 or so roleplayers who buy a box I can believe there'll be a 40-30 jedi to sith split. Of the other 999 thousand+ boxes sold I imagine most'ish of those will probably be sith.  The historical evidence seems pretty conclusive at this point.  I'm thinking primarily of swg's dark side v. light side, Horde v. Alliance and more recently Destro. v. Order.  Bad is beautiful.  I'd imagine that Aion is much more likely than SWOTOR to be the exception that proves the rule if only because with no pregame canon the Asmo.'s sole claim to fame was that they looked like Slightly Less Frufffy Elves not Terrible Looking Baddasses and thus drew only slightly greater numbers.

[Ingmar]

Horde v. Alliance

Uh... this is a pretty strong counter-example actually. At release, Alliance had a huge numerical advantage over Horde across all servers as a whole.

[Merusk]

How can anyone not hate Carth's filthy reeking guts? He flees like a coward, leaving Mission to die at the hands of two Sith. By which I mean Revan and Bastila, of course. Have none of you ever done a dark side playthrough? Shooting in the face is too good for that stuttering emo douchebag. I want to stalk him through the jungle with a bowie knife, then gut him alive and leave him for the animals.

Also, Bastila was the hottest chick in any game ever. At least once she quit being a prim and proper Jedi and gave in to her inner Sith slut. Forget all the giant-boobed half-naked whores in other games, all Bastila had to do was call me "mahstuh" in that English accent a couple of times and I was fucking sold.

It scares me when you post shit that makes me realize you and I think alike at times.

Mmm. Bastila.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlodmblZHNs&feature=related -  3:52 in.

[Goreschach]

Horde v. Alliance

Uh... this is a pretty strong counter-example actually. At release, Alliance had a huge numerical advantage over Horde across all servers as a whole.

If I say 'alliance are the badguys', will WUA go full nerd on us and throw a shitfit?

[Mattemeo]

If I say 'alliance are the badguys', will WUA go full nerd on us and throw a shitfit?

I don't know, but I hear those are the magic words to say if you want to hit 3rd base with Simond.

[WindupAtheist]

It scares me when you post shit that makes me realize you and I think alike at times.

Mmm. Bastila.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlodmblZHNs&feature=related -  3:52 in.

Well we do, because that was the exact scene and line that I was thinking of. I don't care what the canon story is, as far as I'm concerned Revan took over the galaxy, finished off Carth, and lived happily ever after, banging evil Bastila out of her mind every night while she said the filthiest things imaginable with that accent.

If I say 'alliance are the badguys', will WUA go full nerd on us and throw a shitfit?

Yes. Do it.

[Ratman_tf]

Horde v. Alliance

Uh... this is a pretty strong counter-example actually. At release, Alliance had a huge numerical advantage over Horde across all servers as a whole.

But how was the split on PvP servers? My memory is hazy, but I believe it favored Horde.

[Fordel]

Horde v. Alliance

Uh... this is a pretty strong counter-example actually. At release, Alliance had a huge numerical advantage over Horde across all servers as a whole.

But how was the split on PvP servers? My memory is hazy, but I believe it favored Horde.

It did, PvP servers were usually heavily Horde sided, and PvE servers heavily Alliance sided. This is at release. Since then they've opened a shit ton more servers are various times and TBC shifted populations all over the place. People love elves.

[Kail]

How can anyone not hate Carth's filthy reeking guts? He flees like a coward, leaving Mission to die at the hands of two Sith. By which I mean Revan and Bastila, of course. Have none of you ever done a dark side playthrough? Shooting in the face is too good for that stuttering emo douchebag. I want to stalk him through the jungle with a bowie knife, then gut him alive and leave him for the animals.

Also, Bastila was the hottest chick in any game ever. At least once she quit being a prim and proper Jedi and gave in to her inner Sith slut. Forget all the giant-boobed half-naked whores in other games, all Bastila had to do was call me "mahstuh" in that English accent a couple of times and I was fucking sold.

I dunno, I didn't mind Carth.  I played light side, though, so whatever weirdness the plot goes through in the last act I missed.  I've heard a lot of people complain about his voice, but I liked it... sounded like a real guy, rather than an actor, to me.

Bastila was ok, but it always pissed me off how blatantly she was ripped off of Aribeth from NwN, sans pointy ears.  And Aribeth's got that push-up plate mail going for her.

[Fordel]

Now NWN, that's a game I've totally forgotten about, I don't think I ever finished it even.

[UnSub]

I don't think evil sides have an inherent swing towards them - the real question is, "Who looks the best?". WoW had the best looking side in Alliance while WAR had Destro looking a lot better than Order.

By looks, I mean both physical appearance and powers / abilities.

As for SWOR's class distribution: heavy Jedi of either side that will spread out a bit when players do all of the Force-content and then fool around with another character while waiting for new DLC to come out.

[Malakili]

I don't think evil sides have an inherent swing towards them - the real question is, "Who looks the best?". WoW had the best looking side in Alliance while WAR had Destro looking a lot better than Order.

By looks, I mean both physical appearance and powers / abilities.

During beta there was a big discussion in WAR about which side would be over populated.  There was a very vocal group that was going destruction because they thought for sure that it would be the "Horde" of WAR (i.e. viewed as having better PvPers, and a smaller population).  When people realized destruction was over populated even in beta they would say "Oh, thats just cause this is beta, we have more hardcore people who really care about the game, when the game is released Order is going to be flooded with newbs" and such.  Turns out, basically the exact opposite happened.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Are there ANY examples of a PvP MMO setting where the bad guys did not outnumber the good guys?   It seems pretty obvious to me that a whole lot of people like to to a walk on the dark side in these games.  I mean, you get to wear black and kill people without worrying about conscience or consequence!