Useless gaming news & chatter

[Malakili]

It's developed by Neo Nazis.

Who cares? Neo Nazis are allowed to make terrible games too. Looks better than Candy Crush Saga.

People are allowed to do all kinds of terrible (not just in terms of quality) things.  The fact that it is legal doesn't make it not terrible or make it immune to criticism, even moral criticism.  

My problem with the discussion around games lately is that any criticism of a game gets responded to with "Well they are ALLOWED to make it any way they want!" as if that is some kind of trump card.  I don't give a shit about this particular game, I'm just so sick of this kind of argument.  It's the gaming equivalent of your idiot racist uncle saying "It's a free country" when you call him out for being racist. It's a lazy argument and doesn't even address the concerns being raised to begin with.

[Nightblade]

It's developed by Neo Nazis.

Who cares? Neo Nazis are allowed to make terrible games too. Looks better than Candy Crush Saga.

People are allowed to do all kinds of terrible (not just in terms of quality) things.  The fact that it is legal doesn't make it not terrible or make it immune to criticism, even moral criticism.  

My problem with the discussion around games lately is that any criticism of a game gets responded to with "Well they are ALLOWED to make it any way they want!" as if that is some kind of trump card.  I don't give a shit about this particular game, I'm just so sick of this kind of argument.  It's the gaming equivalent of your idiot racist uncle saying "It's a free country" when you call him out for being racist. It's a lazy argument and doesn't even address the concerns being raised to begin with.

It's a game depicting violence for what it actually is, horrifying and brutal. There's nothing wrong with just depicting amoral and disgusting acts.

[Rendakor]

I'm pretty tired of moral criticism of video games.

[Malakili]

I'm pretty tired of moral criticism of video games.

I'm pretty tired of people thinking any media gets a free pass from criticism.  It doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't play it or enjoy it.  It doesn't mean it's the worst thing in the world.  It just means that people need to put on their big boy pants and realize the media they like are subject to criticism just the way film or literature is.  Games don't get a magical free pass.

[Nightblade]

I'm pretty tired of moral criticism of video games.

I'm pretty tired of people thinking any media gets a free pass from criticism.  It doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't play it or enjoy it.  It doesn't mean it's the worst thing in the world.  It just means that people need to put on their big boy pants and realize the media they like are subject to criticism just the way film or literature is.  Games don't get a magical free pass.

Since this has been a point of discussion since the age of Mortal Kombat, I really doubt anyone thinks that "games get a magical free pass".

[Rendakor]

I'm pretty tired of moral criticism of video games.

I'm pretty tired of people thinking any media gets a free pass from criticism.  It doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't play it or enjoy it.  It doesn't mean it's the worst thing in the world.  It just means that people need to put on their big boy pants and realize the media they like are subject to criticism just the way film or literature is.  Games don't get a magical free pass.

This attitude is what gets us banned books lists. Fuck that. Criticize media based on merit, not the fact that you think the subject matter is icky.

[Malakili]

This attitude is what gets us banned books lists. Fuck that. Criticize media based on merit, not the fact that you think the subject matter is icky.

What the fuck are you talking about? Seriously.  Banned books?

Have you ever taken a literature class? Read anything by a literary scholar? Do you think the kind of criticism that comes out of kind of thing is in the business of banning books?  


"Because the subject matter is icky?" Jesus fucking christ, just set the straw man on fire and be done with it. 

Criticism in this context does not mean "I don't like it."

[Rendakor]

So criticizing a game that isn't even out yet, based on the fact that developers are (allegedly?) Neo Nazis is valid, intellectual criticism?

[Malakili]

So criticizing a game that isn't even out yet, based on the fact that developers are (allegedly?) Neo Nazis is valid, intellectual criticism?

Rendakor.  Step back for two seconds and read what I said.  I specifically responded to Schild's post because it is the kind of thing I see ALL THE TIME to dismiss valid criticism.  I don't give a shit about this game. I didn't watch the video.  I'll probably forget the game exists after this conversation ends.  It's about the fact that apparently even bringing up the fact that a game might be problematic in some way gets you shouted down - exactly as you've done here I hasten to add.  Like I'm some kind of fascist trying to bank books.  Please.

[Rendakor]

Except you didn't even criticize the game for anything about the game itself. I don't care if a game dev literally eats babies; if the game is fun, I'll play it.

[Malakili]

Except you didn't even criticize the game for anything about the game itself. I don't care if a game dev literally eats babies; if the game is fun, I'll play it.

First of all, I didn't criticize the game AT ALL.  Because I don't give a fuck about the game. This was about the kind of argument I've seen against criticism of games in general.  It isn't incidental that schild mentioned Quinn in his first post about it, I suspect.

Second of all, I didn't mention the devs at all.  At any point. In any of my posts.

Finally - to use film instead - I'll watch a movie if I like the movie.  Which has absolutely dick all to do with my ability to be critical of it.  Do you not understand what I'm saying?

[Rendakor]

koro: Game is made by Neo Nazis
schild: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You: WHARRGARBL

Your post was in reply to a dismissal of a statement about the devs. If it's not "Bad people shouldn't make video games" I'm not sure what your point is.

[Malakili]

If it's not "Bad people shouldn't make video games" I'm not sure what your point is.

Then you literally have the reading comprehension of a 5 year old.  

My post was in reply to two posts that schild made, first of all but I didn't quote both of them because it's clunky as fuck.  Then, the point I made was that simply being "allowed" to do something - which I agree with, they should be allowed to make this game with whatever shitty content they want - doesn't allow you to sidestep criticism of that content.  It doesn't matter if it's Neo Nazis making this or if it's a well respected AAA developer.  And that seemed to be exactly what schild was suggesting - "well fuck it it's legal for them to make the game so any further discussion of it is pointless." 

If it was a one of comment I probably wouldn't care.  But lately I've been seeing this kind of point being made all the time - especially by gamers - as if it is some trump card to the criticism of video games. 

[jakonovski]

I know the perfect game for you guys to work out your tension. 

[Hawkbit]

Ever, Jane.

[schild]

Jesus christ, what happened in here? Will edit this post after I read it.

Edit:

It's developed by Neo Nazis.

Who cares? Neo Nazis are allowed to make terrible games too. Looks better than Candy Crush Saga.

People are allowed to do all kinds of terrible (not just in terms of quality) things.  The fact that it is legal doesn't make it not terrible or make it immune to criticism, even moral criticism.  

My problem with the discussion around games lately is that any criticism of a game gets responded to with "Well they are ALLOWED to make it any way they want!" as if that is some kind of trump card.  I don't give a shit about this particular game, I'm just so sick of this kind of argument.  It's the gaming equivalent of your idiot racist uncle saying "It's a free country" when you call him out for being racist. It's a lazy argument and doesn't even address the concerns being raised to begin with.

Alright, so this seems to be the main post that kicked this shit off. Dude, no one is hand-waving away criticism with THEY'RE ALLOWED TO, etc. These are neo-nazis (is this proven?) making a game about going on a killing spree. It's so fucking OBVIOUS that it's a moral minefield that its not even worth bringing it up. Yup, it's a killing simulator made by dickbags. It's so on the face stupid and morally reprehensible that even criticizing them is a waste of breath. Raising concerns about it is even goofy. It's a fucking killing simulator. Even sociopaths know what's wrong with it. The clinically insane can probably see the awfulness here ("why fake kill when you can REAL KILL?" [I don't know how to think like the criminally insane]).

Anyway, going out of your way to criticize a killing simulator on a moral or philosophical level is wasted neurons. Clearly it's shitty and in poor taste AND they're also allowed to make it - and I am not one to stop people or even imply that they shouldn't make whatever the hell they want.

Edit 2: Ok, just saw your clarification post (I think you can see how Rendakor may have gotten confused given my response above):

My post was in reply to two posts that schild made, first of all but I didn't quote both of them because it's clunky as fuck.  Then, the point I made was that simply being "allowed" to do something - which I agree with, they should be allowed to make this game with whatever shitty content they want - doesn't allow you to sidestep criticism of that content.  It doesn't matter if it's Neo Nazis making this or if it's a well respected AAA developer.  And that seemed to be exactly what schild was suggesting - "well fuck it it's legal for them to make the game so any further discussion of it is pointless."  

No one is saying they get to sidestep criticism. But I'll flat out say that criticizing it, in any sense of the word, is a big 'ol waste of time. Yes, people can be critical of anything - I sure as shit am - but in this case, why bother? There's intelligent examples of criticism of truely grotesque shit (see papers on Salò: 120 Days of Sodom or A Serbian Film for example). I simply don't think there's intelligent criticism to be made here.

More than anything though, I wanted to kill the possibility for anyone to turn it into a discussion of feminism. Because somebody fucking will, and they'll be wrong to do so.

[schild]

I don't think the people making this are Neo-Nazis. Wherever that came from, I'm pretty sure someone either confused it with Ethnic Cleansing (which was made by Neo-Nazis/White Supremacists). I think what we're dealing with here is merely some polish people that really like heavy metal and eyeliner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatred_%28video_game%29

[Goreschach]

What I don't get is why nobody is criticizing it for being so ridiculous. The video comes off like a stealth parody. At first, I thought that was what they were going for. It's basically the crow doing the batman voice going we're all going to DIEEEE. It would be hilarious if didn't seem that they expect us to actually take it seriously. As it stands, watching the video is just kindof embarrassing.

[Rendakor]

It looks like GTA with the edginess dialed up to 11, and without the thin veneer of story that everyone just ignores anyway.

[Nightblade]

What I don't get is why nobody is criticizing it for being so ridiculous. The video comes off like a stealth parody. At first, I thought that was what they were going for. It's basically the crow doing the batman voice going we're all going to DIEEEE. It would be hilarious if didn't seem that they expect us to actually take it seriously. As it stands, watching the video is just kindof embarrassing.

The introduction dialog makes had my eyes rolling, yeah.

[Maven]

I saw this, thought it worth sharing. Another #GamerGate controversy from Angry Gamer where Allistar Pinoff, a former Destructoid writer, is essentially blacklisted from industry work.

Maybe everything to do with gaming journalism and its lack of maturity and standards is something for a younger crowd to deal with. They won't do it though. Passion for gaming seems to have a blinding effect on most to deal with more serious issues and concerns and can give way to poor emotional regulation. It's a technological bubble of the first world. Some of those e-mails were the height of inappropriate conduct from an employer, but Pinstar and Gonzalez seemed to share a personal relationship.

The EiC list gives the impression that all the sites and their higher-up employees are having some form of communication with each other. That seems to be a bad thing (corrupt?) when it comes to advising on dealings with employees or contractors -- courting groupthink judgments from uninvolved parties isn't what I'd call professionalism. Then again, maybe because these people *lack* business education that they have such trouble when dealing with employees and HR situations? It's sort of like Chris Roberts' Star Citizen to an extent, where to me they've gone into questionable ethical territory.

When I first went into the games industry, there was a big deal made about how small the community is. Networking was crucial. So was not doing anything to jack up your career because your co-worker might be your boss one day. For some reason that makes me think of that one invite-only party I attended at PAX where I knew no one, but which involved a standing-room only bar with female dancers and young, hip developers getting drunk. I felt like everyone's trying to be the cool kids, the in-group, some sort of social power game under everything.

And I sit here thinking it would have been nice to be in one of those groups.

[Maven]

There is something infuriating about seeing the n-th vblog from either a guy too ugly to show his face and a self-deemed expert on the subject, a woman whose more painting than person to attract hits for her opinions, or some other nit influencing a mob audience who uncritically soaks up everything they have to say and goes on the internet to rampage against the system. But isn't sitting behind your screen the height of ineffectiveness, or is it because everyone does everything online that shaming and public humiliation are the only weapons available for someone to exert an influence.

Yes, I'm generalizing, am emotional, and being unfair. Be charitable for a moment. I can't put into words this aggravation about how all this internet communication and tech culture is so detached from ... reality? I don't know! How many different voices and feeds are out there? How can you get past so much noise when everyone wants to throw their 2 cents on something they know nothing about but gives them a soapbox to hash out their principles and "This is what I would have done!"?

What the fuck is social justice anyway? It seems to be some passive-aggressive political system.

[rk47]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[calapine]

The best or worst thing about that game is all the people who literally cheer at exploding heads in any number of other games, but here they suddenly find it objectionable.

edit: for context, I work at a public library. After the decision to start lending out games, there's been talks about banning GTAV (not gonna happen), and some do not want to add M rated games to their respective libraries' collection. If I were to go telling them how GTA is ok and Hatred not ok, I'd look like a complete crazy person.

Ufff....tough to form an opinion here. For me it would be too far. As for why shooter X is ok but this not, uhmm....I think motivation (of being an amok runner) together with the brutal way the killing is shown (as opposed to nuking a town, for example).

It's hard not be hypocritical here, but on the other side I would be lying if I'd say "I am okay with that".

[jakonovski]

The best or worst thing about that game is all the people who literally cheer at exploding heads in any number of other games, but here they suddenly find it objectionable.

edit: for context, I work at a public library. After the decision to start lending out games, there's been talks about banning GTAV (not gonna happen), and some do not want to add M rated games to their respective libraries' collection. If I were to go telling them how GTA is ok and Hatred not ok, I'd look like a complete crazy person.

Ufff....tough to form an opinion here. For me it would be too far. As for why shooter X is ok but this not, uhmm....I think motivation (of being an amok runner) together with the brutal way the killing is shown (as opposed to nuking a town, for example).

It's hard not be hypocritical here, but on the other side I would be lying if I'd say "I am okay with that".

I just go with personal preference. Video games in general are full of gratuitous violence bordering on fetishism, and while it's all just a game, it's still a bit fucked up. The key I feel is to not start making excuses for turning on bloody mess every time you play Fallout. Just accept that we all have questionable taste in some regards.

Where it really gets tough is when the depiction of violence gets political (in game). While I wouldn't play Hatred for a multitude of reasons, I don't feel it goes past a juvenile attempt to shock people.

[calapine]

While I wouldn't play Hatred for a multitude of reasons, I don't feel it goes past a juvenile attempt to shock people.

I'd agree with that assessment.

Plus, we know since 1994 that "indexing" doesn't work. 

[Sky]

It's funny because who gives a fuck.

[Sky]

Hm. I'll go one step further and say I wish there as many varied and creative sexual/erotic video games as there are violent ones, but then something something about the phallic military-industrial patriarchal society stemming from a patriarchal phallic religious cult and repression and this is why I don't talk to people about things because why is everyone fucking mental.

[Merusk]

Boobs in video games on a regular basis would be the thing to finally bring down the wrath of US legislation.  Boobs AND intercourse? We're talking McCarthy hearings level crap.

[Trippy]

Hm. I'll go one step further and say I wish there as many varied and creative sexual/erotic video games as there are violent ones

There are but they are all in Japanese.

[Yegolev]

Ooooh, mokuzai no hi-ge-san...!

[schild]

Hm. I'll go one step further and say I wish there as many varied and creative sexual/erotic video games as there are violent ones

There are but they are all in Japanese.

I keep trying to get rk47 to radicalthon Divi-Dead. It's all of the things Sky is requesting and nearly 20 years old.

[Sky]

Ok, japanasia doesn't count.

[Samwise]

Also those mostly aren't games so much as "visual novels".  Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, but I think that has more to do with why those "don't count" than the fact that they're in Japanese.

[HaemishM]

IOW, Boobs transcend all languages.   

As do tentacles.