Walking Dead

[Tebonas]

That hiker was before Ricks epiphany, though.

I think if they met the hiker last episode they would have taken him in.

[Cyrrex]

Rick's taking on of those people at the end isn't really surprising.  This whole show centers around his journey from one extreme to the other as he fights to figure out whether he should fight to protect his small group, or if he is going to fight for humanity in general.  I think he has finally realized that isolating his own group at all costs is only a short term solution, and that mankind is fucked if they don't stop fighting each other.  I still think he will put his own "family" first, but no longer at the expense of everybody else.

Regarding Carl: 
Will be interesting to see where they go next season.  I think they are going to have to get up-rooted from that prison somehow, or it will begin to get too stale.  The zombies in the last half of the season have been barely more dangerous than cattle, and I think they need to re-introduce some element of the survival against the undead.  I realize they need to show man's struggle against his fellow man as well, but that isn't what makes this show fun or unique.

[Surlyboi]

Oh, for fuck's sake. Cause and effect, people. The hiker was before the speech and before he realized he wasn't the governor.

It's like I'm taking crazy pills.

[Yegolev]

It's like I'm taking crazy pills.

You got this before me.

Regarding Carl: 

I'll agree with dangerous path, since he's a kid, but not "poor decision" since my eyes told me that they would both be dead otherwise.

[luckton]

Regarding Carl:  

[Jamiko]

I had the same feeling while watching that scene.

[Tale]

It was deliberately ambiguous. It's supposed to divide viewers. Enough said.

[Setanta]

Good episode. If only they were writing like that for all the dud's this season.

[tgr]

Next episode on the walking dead:
 

[Yegolev]

It was deliberately ambiguous. It's supposed to divide viewers. Enough said.

This is why I'm angry.  The writers are fucking with me.

[TheWalrus]

I'm with Carl.

[shiznitz]

I thought the final episode was really well done.  The series wandered a bit during this season but ended strong.  The writers have license to do a lot of things for season 4.  Let's hope they keep up the intensity and don't turn the show into something softer.

[Ironwood]

Are you chaps watching the same episode I did ?

Carl just totally murdered someone.

Stop pissing about it, it's quite clear.

Edited :  and he just admitted it.  You people are nuts.

[tgr]

Yes, he did. Someone who apparently took too long to drop the gun when told to do so.

I have to admit, I was thinking "um, isn't he going to put his gun down soon, he said he was going to put it do-holy fuck did that just happen?" during that scene myself. The others aren't wrong, the writers must've deliberately done that to divide the readers and get us arguing amongst ourselves while they make the next season.

[Ironwood]

Oh please.

[HaemishM]

The writers are American. To an American with our love of the gun culture, that scene could go either way depending on where your sympathy towards guns and pre-emptive action lie.

FWIW, I agree with Ironwood.

[Nevermore]

I was leaning towards being on Carl's side based on the shooting scene alone, but I think it becomes clear near the end of the episode when Rick has that talk with Carl that Mazzara wanted the audience to think that Carl overreacted.  Of the reasons Carl gave for shooting the kid, not one indicated that he felt threatened right at that moment.

[Threash]

The writers are American. To an American with our love of the gun culture, that scene could go either way depending on where your sympathy towards guns and pre-emptive action lie.

FWIW, I agree with Ironwood.

I have no love of guns but that was the middle of a battle, Carl was protecting the weak members of the group, and that fucker DID NOT drop the gun when told.

[Merusk]

So I checked out the DVR since my daughter watches this and the discussion here was interesting.  I took Haemish's stance based only on comments, that the writers are American and this was a cultural misunderstanding.

[Threash]

Your first sentence and your last kinda contradict each other.

[MahrinSkel]

Your first sentence and your last kinda contradict each other.

Why are we spoilering this, anyway?

--Dave

[Nevermore]

1) He's a war child. He likely doesn't even remember peace and playing around except in fleeting memories. Decisions are made on a binary of survival vs. death. Morality as you, I, or any of the adults doesn't come in to play. He's 13 and his most formative years have been around this ONE central tenant.  You do what it takes to survive or you die.  THAT is his morality.

Without getting into the rest of it, I believe only a year or so has passed since the zombie apocalypse started. I don't think point 1 really stands up given that.

[MahrinSkel]

Without getting into the rest of it, I believe only a year or so has passed since the zombie apocalypse started. I don't think point 1 really stands up given that.

You don't remember being thirteen, do you? Not all years are created equal when it comes to development.

--Dave

[Nevermore]

Without getting into the rest of it, I believe only a year or so has passed since the zombie apocalypse started. I don't think point 1 really stands up given that.

You don't remember being thirteen, do you? Not all years are created equal when it comes to development.

--Dave

I certainly had more than fleeting memories of the past when I was 13, didn't you?  By the way, who is Frank?

[Surlyboi]

I think he meant Rick.

[MediumHigh]

I'm going to be honest. Most of you still wouldn't have shot the kid. The few that would, would have done so out of fear. That's not what Carl did. Carl shot him because Carl didn't want to deal with the whole aftermath, he didn't want to look over his shoulder, he didn't want to have any doubts. It didn't matter whether the guy he shot was harmless or a serial killer, all Carl saw was a guy with a gun wearing the wrong team jersey. Most people would have waited to the last possible second to pull the trigger if at all. Normal people rather not have to shoot.

[HaemishM]

Normal people rather not have to shoot.

And think this along with Merusk's point about Carl's age is really the crux of this. At this point in time, Carl is NOT a normal person, at fucking all. At a time in his life when the biggest worries he should have is about the facial hair growing on his upper lip, those strange rumblings in his pants and his voice cracking in front of girls, he's instead had to face fighting for his life every single second of every day for the last year from both undead horrors and human shitheads. He's had to put a bullet in his dying mother to keep her from becoming said horror after he watched an almost total stranger cut his baby sister out of his momma's belly. He's watched his dad go through a nervous breakdown AND kill a man that Carl saw as both a moral authority and father figure (Shane) and he's lived through the slow-motion trainwreck disintegration of his parent's marriage. All while he's still just trying to figure out his own place in the world.

Carl is undeniably FUCKED IN THE HEAD. Minus the undead horrors and total collapse of civilization, kid would be looking at some serious counselling to say the least. Whether Carl's choice is the new morality or a poorly telegraphed plot point for next season, it's absolutely understandable what he did.

But again, minus the zombie apocalypse, what he did would be considered murder. It might be justifiable, but it's still fucking murder and a cold-blooded one at that. There's actually a lot of room for some interesting storytelling and character moments with this.

Unfortunately, based on how the writers totally shit the bed on the interesting dilemmas posed by Woodbury and a Governor character that's more than a spray tan character, I'm going to say it'll get annoying by episode 3 if not sooner.

[MahrinSkel]

Without getting into the rest of it, I believe only a year or so has passed since the zombie apocalypse started. I don't think point 1 really stands up given that.

You don't remember being thirteen, do you? Not all years are created equal when it comes to development.

--Dave

I certainly had more than fleeting memories of the past when I was 13, didn't you?  By the way, who is Frank?

Yeah, better than most (I was in my twenties before I realized most people don't really remember their childhood).  I also remember how much more 'in the now' I was at that age, and how much I changed in just a couple of years.  A year of hell at 12 is probably the time it would have maximum impact.  Carl can't be judged by normal standards, because of what he's calibrated his standards against.

I meant Rick, it's fixed.

--Dave

[Nevermore]

To be clear, I think Carl is fucked up by what's been happening since the zombie apocalypse started.  I think fucked up Carl actually a more interesting character.  I just don't think he's fucked up because pre-zombie time is somehow a distant memory.  If we were 5 years into zombie time and he were 8 when it started then yeah, I'd agree with that.

Now I do think that what he's been forced to do has had a greater impact on him than it would on an adult because he's so young.  I also think that one of the unstated reasons he shot that kid is that Carl has completely lost confidence in his father's ability to lead and he doesn't think Rick can make the tough decisions anymore, so Carl will just do it himself.  That attitude has actually been building up over the latter half of the season.

[Ironwood]

Also, the kid was the same age as the blonde girl and had he taken him in, that'd be dick competition.

So boom.

Look, I'm not saying I disagree with any of the good points raised, what I'm saying is I was a little stranged out by the reaction to a guy holding a shotgun by the barrel and clearly terrified being efficiently murdered on screen.  There wasn't even any wiggle room.  Did he relinquish the gun ?  Not really, but he sure as hell wasn't holding it in a way that could be threatening to any imagination.  And then Carl said 'Sure, I wasn't scared or worried or thinking he was going to shoot, he was just a problem and I was getting rid of that problem'. 

And then you come here and find a 'Dilemma' as to what the scene meant.

Hint :  It meant Carl is finally going to be semi interesting.  And a complete nutjob.  For alllll the reasons H mentions.

[Numtini]

I think there's a disconnect between what the scene was supposed to be and what it actually was. The later discussion between Herschel and Rick makes it crystal clear that the kid was shot down, but the actual scene just isn't that black and white. It's bad direction in the shooting scene.

[Tannhauser]

Nope.  If the kid was just going to be gunned down, Carl would have done it without telling him to drop the gun.  Carl gave him two chances to drop the gun and he didn't for whatever reason.

If Carl is a psycho, he wouldn't have given the kid a chance.  Carl's not a psycho, but he will act quickly to kill anyone who he views as a threat.

[Raguel]

I think there's a disconnect between what the scene was supposed to be and what it actually was. The later discussion between Herschel and Rick makes it crystal clear that the kid was shot down, but the actual scene just isn't that black and white. It's bad direction in the shooting scene.

Carl's immediate reaction in that scene IMO looked more like shock and surprise than one of relief or pitiless psycho.  I think he shot Shane and Morgan with less emotion on his face, but then I'd have to re-watch those to be sure. Taken everything as is (as opposed to chalking it up as bad direction/acting, which I agree with), I'd say Carl wants to be trusted with the heavy lifting and didn't want to admit to accidentally shooting someone in the face. He's justifying his actions in hindsight, which sounds more like something an adult would do.

[Ironwood]

 

[Mithas]

Totally unrelated but the actress who plays Beth (the younger girl) is 27. Blew my mind. I thought she was like 17.