f13.net

For more dynamic worlds - whether MMORGPS or single player RPGs - I have wondered about whether folks would one day move to having NPCs interact based on sophisticated models.

WoW.  It's dead simple - but you will see predator attack prey in some zones - and the interaction appears random.  I wonder if the game will develop this further some day - and use this model more widely in the game - creating dnynamic exchanges between animals not unlike ecologists would build into simple environmental models.

Morrowind Oblivion.  The NPCs sound cool - it seems that each has a propensity to engage in different behaviors - and depending upon what those are (determined by some probability) the character itself develops by learning new information by exchanging with others, changing locations or advancing some of their skills.

If Morrowind makes the splash that some expect with the NPCs in its new version - I wonder if this might herald a new era in the way games are developed.  For animals and NPCs - we move beyond spawn timers, and instead see them with a deep repretoire of actions that probablisitic and impact their own "development" over time.  They will appear "real" with their own agendas - rather than sitting or patrolling pointlessly until and PC arrives to engage them.

Okay, I'm going to be a pedantic jerk for a second.

It's The Elder Scrolls IV:  Oblivion

The others were

The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind

The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall

The Elder Scrolls: Arena

Okay, you can carry on now.

Heh - no problem - but I don't follow.  My understanding is that in the NPC behavior AI in Oblivion will be completely unlike its predecessors in the series.

He's just saying it's Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, as opposed to Morrowind:Oblivion.

I didn't know that the ai would be that cool. I might buy it now. ;)

As far as AI goes, I'd love to play a game where the npcs had their own agenda. Seed the mmorpg promises those things but from what I understand they don't even have npcs up yet in their beta so who knows how far we are from that dream.  :|

I'm fairly certain the AI won't be near as good as they're making it out to be. Either way, I'd prefer progression in combat AI before Social AI. Also, moving this to gaming.

Well if the game in question is primarily about combat then I'd agree. Depending on the game though, social AI can make the game more interesting, because you never know when you're going to get stabbed in the back, metaphorically speaking.

Do you have to fight bosses at all during the game? Is the end boss combat based? Combat AI plz. I don't care how social the game is, crap combat makes an angry schild.

I'll buy it if the quests and whatnot are 3/4 as good as Morrowind, and the palatte isn't 256 shades of shite. The AI will not impress me - I already know it'll be no more than another simple parameter to work around, and will most likely be annoying in game terms.

I suspect not.  My plummetting faith in Bethesda aside, we've seen these kinds of things before.  Look at Fable, for instance.  People in that game have schedules; they go to work, they come home, they hang out at the bar, et cetera.  If you're a great noble hero, they'll applaud in the streets, if you're an evil villain, they'll cower before you.  If you run through a town and slaughter half the people, the next time you pass through, the people will remember that.  Market prices fluctuate based on how safe the roads are for traders, as a result of your actions.  And so on.

And, ultimately, very few people cared about all that.  They complained that the game was too short, or the loading times too long, or the maps were too small.  The game has some nice AI, but it's a fairly subtle effect, so people don't notice it very much.  They DO notice when their XBox pauses for thirty seconds to load a twenty foot hallway, though. 

If a game is going to revolutionize the way NPCs are handled, it's going to have to be a game in which the NPC AI is VERY prominent and VERY well done.  Everything I've heard about Oblivion sounds like it's going to be Morrowind II, and putting better AI under that hood is not going to change an awful lot.  The player is still highly limited in his interactions with NPCs and the world, there is still a scripted story to follow, and most of the AI you're going to be interacting with is going to be on the other end of your sword.  I don't think it's going to make a much larger impression than Morrowind, even if they manage to pull off everything they promise.

I'll admit I'd love to play a game like WoW, but where they replace the asshat players with NPCs that were shinier asshats.

If the AI in Oblivion works as well as they promise the only thing that'll be said of it by people who haven't played the previous game is that, "The world feels pretty alive, that's kinda cool". That's a nice reaction, but was it worth the work? Pearls before swine as it were.

I remember looking at the boards and reading Fallout posts and how the fans replaying the game were trying to figure out at what exact moment the city Necropolis fell into ruin.

It's that kind of instinct - to explore your world - even influence it in more subtle ways - that could be supported by more sophisticated NPC AI.  So I am still inclined to think this could be a new direction for gaming - if that market need is really there.

Right now most games take the museum approach to NPCs - they stand there waiting for the PC.  It's little wonder then that part of the popularity of MMORPGs may come from the presence of other players that make the world feel "alive".

It'll be so nice they have AI equal to what Garriot was doing in the 80s. Even more recent titles like Gothic have had NPC scheduling, it's not like it's something new. I prefer NPC scheduling, it makes the world much nicer, it's way too bizarre to have static npcs and takes me right out of the game.

UO tried to use Ultima's scheduling originally (heh), but guess what? Players whined about it.

NOLF2 had a nice AI programming with the npcs having goals that react to the world state, they notice a light on and go check it out. If their thirst threshold is wanting, they might make a cup of coffee before they shut off the light, etc. Made for some decent dynamic interactions, but the game world was too limited to really capitalize on the feature.

The thief series has always had nice AI, but it wasn't scheduled, just patterns with a nice alarm AI laid on top.

I'm appalled at the state of AI in gaming, it's atrocious. It's one of my very favorite features in any game that has taken the time to make it special.

I think few people cared about the AI bits in Fable because the AI didn't really engage them. They didn't come to the player, the player had to go to the NPC's and then just about all he was rewarded with was a "Hi, Arseface!" and other bits of dialogue. Unless the player hit a scripted spot, they were never just approached by an NPC and asked to do something. I mean, if a player saves a village from destruction, shouldn't the next time he comes to the town, NPC's come up and offer to feed him, a key to the city, or another mission? Not just standing there (or walking around) with a little "!" over their head waiting to be triggered, but actually engaging the player.

The Fable AI was decent, but it was too subtle.

I agree with you a million percent on that.  What I'm quibbling about is the idea that Oblivion (or any other game I'm aware of) is heading in this direction.  What I'm hearing about Oblivion (and I may well be misinformed) is that it's going down a similar road to Fable.  You've got THE STORY to Oblivion, where character X does Y independant of any AI calculations, but with maybe a few branching plot points.  And then underneath all that, you've got the AI which can do some interesting, dynamic things.  The problem is that the big things, the flow of the story, is not determined by the AI, it's still going to be scripted.  And so will most of the rest of the things in the world.  You're not going to be able to just leave off the heroing business and run a blacksmithing shop, you're not going to be able to head down to the tavern and chat about those cursed Jabberwockies that have ruined this year's harvest.  You're still going to be extremely limited in what you can do and so the AI is still going to be extremely limited in what it can react to you doing.

I'd argue that if someone were to develop AI Jesus, they'd basically have to do it in the form of a virtual world.  No pre-set storyline, at all.  Let the player do whatever he wants, and then let the AI react to that.  Make the AI actually responsible for running the world.  Then, you'd have NPCs that really mattered.  When I punch the king in the stomach, have the AI respond in a way that would be appropriate for the situation, not in a way that was scripted eight months ago by the designers.  But I don't see this in Oblivion.

I think a social AI will sell more games than a combat AI. Why? Because people don't like it when the NPCs turn the tables on them and use all the same tricks a player can. I was playing EVE last night and got wtfpwned by some pirates who used a mostly PC tactic (warp scrambling) to keep me from escaping, then proceeded to kick the shit out of me. It kind of sucked, but it was cool at the same time. The gamers here (hardcore experienced types) can appreciate that, but Joe Public is going to think it is too hard.

No matter what happens, I will buy Oblivion, likely be fascinated by it, play it for 2 weeks straight, then 'take a break' and never play it again. Seems to be my modus operandi lately. 

I'm not sure what Oblivion is doing for the purely social aspects of thier AI.  They have mentioned that NPC's will gather and talk about events that have occured/are occuring which can lead to new quest information.  That NPC's do have thier own schedules and will go to bed when tired, eat when hungry (so maybe you will find more NPC's at the taverns at lunch/dinner time?) and other such things that no one has really tried to do since the Ultimas.

How much the world is really affected by that, I have no clue.

One of the preview movies does show an assault on one of the Oblivion gates with the NPC warriors reacting dynamically to the PC, turning the look you in the face and say something.   This sort of thing which helps A LOT for immersion.

I have been a big fan of the series since Arena so I'm going a little fanbois over this one.

Me too.  I love me some Elder Scrolls.  Except that 3d battlespire one.  It was awful.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/686/686663p1.html

 No, seriously don't do that to me.

It sounds fucking great and I know I'll end up dissapointed in some fashion.

(Though I really liked Morrowind.  Lots.)

My only concern with the radiant ai is that if I dick around too long in the game will the NPC's win it for me?

I really worry how the hard the game's going to be when the Orcs are owning the designers.

Gothic was cool for that. If a human npc knocked you out, often they'd just grab your gold and weapon and let you live. You could then return the favor later and get your stuff back.

Even though it's stuff that's been in other games before, it's a welcome addition to TES. I just wish they'd bring back the huge dungeons...and that I wouldn't need a new pc to play it!

Ssshhh.  Let's not bring that up.  Elder Scrolls with combat focus?  I didn't play it.  Remember the rule of not listening to people who don't like your game, please.

Oblivion sounds awesome.  Save often and in different slots, though.

It's a deep personal wound for me.

My wife, knowing my love of the Elder Scrolls, purchased me it in the hope that my eyes would light up and I'd love her more and more the more I played it.

She realised she'd made a mistake when she had to talk me down off the ledge.  Such a shame.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  If you want to have a realistic, complex AI system, it is going to do things you don't expect.  That's the whole point of game AI.  To say "we're going to play our cards conservatively so it doesn't interfere with the story we've already written" is to relegate that AI far, far into the background.  So before your NPCs stood around town for no reason, and now with this stunning new AI they will go to the bar when they get thirsty.  Before, they were billboards, with all their actions scripted beforehand, but NOW, with the NEW GREAT AI, they're MOVING billboards.  They still can't do anything relevant to the game (because that might taint the precious storyline), so they play the same role that NPCs have played since Final Fantasy 1.

While you have a point I have to disagree.  The moving billboard thing is a pain and is exactly why most games don't do it BUT for improvement to be made in the genre there needs to be at least someone trying to make it work.  If no one is even trying it will never improve, these are problems to be solved, not insurmountable barriers.  The Elder Scrolls series has always pushed the envelop in trying to offer a compelete experience and they really have learned A LOT through the iterative experience.  As far as I can tell they have been trying to find that perfect mix between huge expansive gameworld and tight interesting gameplay since Arena and each game has gotten closer to this goal than anyone else at the time they released it.  Morrowind was very close, hopefully Oblivion will be even closer.

Kail wants a pure sandbox. Which sounds great, but besides being a long way off from a programming standpoint, it probably wouldn't work out the way you'd want. A game world is far too complex to let the npcs develop the story from your actions alone, and then there's the sticky part about having to have a backstory so you have a reason why everyone is where they are when the game begins. Sounds like you don't have to concrete an idea, anyway. Just griping about things without a solution isn't usefully cynical commentary, it's just bitching.

As for having AI do things you don't expect, that's precisely where Thief:Deadly Shadows falls apart, turning into some medieval keystone cops about halfway through the game. There's interesting things you don't expect, and then there's sheer lunacy that detracts from gameplay, which is what I'm sure the Bethesda folks allude to.

I would be interested to hear a few stories on that point - could be good.

Certainly with NPC AI it will increase the re-playability of a favorite game dramatically.  I am talking about the small story arcs and the chance to dig deeper into the interactions among NPCs.

What Sky is referring to is things like that NPC practicing his archery misses and hits a guard.  The guard attacks the NPC another NPC attacks the guard and then you get a general melee until everyone is dead and then the game is pretty much over until you reset.

I don't see them getting better with any consistency, though.  I mean, let's take NPC AI, for example.  In Daggerfall, you ask an NPC where a building is, they'll say "Oh, it's a bit northeast of here" or something, depending on where they are relative to it.  You ask an NPC in Morrowind where a building is, they'll give you the whole "go to the east site of the river and find the merchant square, it's on the north side, on the second floor, next to the mages guild" speech, even when they're standing close enough to the entrance that they can reach out and touch it.  That's a step back, not a step forward.

Again, I agree that it would be nice if someone tried to make this kind of thing work.  But I seriously doubt it's going to be Oblivion that does it.  Everything I've read about Oblivion has sounded almost exactly like the press for Fable.  NPCs will drink beer if they're at the bar, they'll go hunting, they'll practice their spells at the mages guild, yadda yadda yadda.  What they won't do is anything that impacts you or the world in any relevant way outside of the pre-scripted cutscenes.  That sounds exactly like Fable to me.


I'm not saying I personally want anything.  What I'm saying is that if you're going to make the AI the star of the show, you need to let the AI actually DO SOMETHING.  It's great and everything that the AI eats a sandwich when it's hungry, but those kinds of effects are extremely, exremely subtle, compared to the scripted plot points (e.g. the king deciding to order your execution).  I'm not saying that would be the perfect game (certainly not with today's tech), but if great AI is the game's major selling point and this great AI can't actually do anything, then the game is going to be in trouble.

I'm not trying to bitch about the quality of Oblivion here; it may well turn out to be a good game.  What I am skeptical about is the claim that the AI is going to be the overriding factor, or that it will usher in a new era of gaming (to paraphrase the OP).  Oblivion will sink or swim based on it's graphics, it's controls, it's story.  If they manage to pull off all this stuff they're talking about with the AI, great; it'll be icing on the cake.  But if the game is a buggy jumble of awkward controls tacked on to a generic storyline, the AI is not going to save it.  And if the game is a shining masterpiece of unprecedented scope and beauty, I'll sing it's praises even if the NPCs don't ever get thirsty.

Excellent job restating your initial post in mind numbing depth.  However, I still disagree for exactly the same reason as before; there needs to be an iterative process because the mechanisms for what you want will not ever spring up from nothing.  There has to be something to get better FROM.

I'm less concerned with their AI and more with their advancement system, which blows.  And their magic system, which also blows.  Though there's always the amusing boots of uber jumping deal, which allow you to jump across all of Morrowind in a single bound...  however, they are very short duration, be sure to activate them again before you hit the ground, as the skill buff won't last the entire flight.

I'd prefer something a little more useful, less able to be goofy with.

Alkiera

It's not. Being the 4th iteration of a great series is. Their AI needed work, grabbing sandwiches > standing around. Maybe next time around they can get to something more directly interactive with the plot. It sounds rather like Gothic, though, and Gothic's scheduling really added a lot of depth to the game. Sure, some of it was subtle, so what? Subtle touches are what seperates the great games from the good ones.
Not sure what you mean here. Usage-based skill advancement with a light class architecture, I think it's pretty great.

Also, I thought the magic system was cool beans. You want a spell? Make it, just be sure you have the mana to cast it. And that's without delving into the editor to make funky stuff on the cheap.

The most important difference between TES IV and Fable is that Molyneux isn't involved.  Say what you will about Bethesda, but they didn't make Black & White 2.  Or Fable, which suck-suck-sucked.  Bethesda has had its issues but you can't fault them for trying their damndest to make the best iteration they can of an ideal game world.  They also created TESCS which is an incredible tool, really, with which we discovered most people have really crappy RPG design ideas.

It has to be good first.

When the hell is this damn game coming out.

It is a slow, agonizing race between Oblivion and Twilight Princess.  I am betting Twilight Princess hits first, perhaps mid-May, with TES IV surfacing towards the end of June.

JFC, I had been hoping Oblivion and NWN 2 would keep me going until the WoW expansion.  Now it looks like I will have to go outside or something.

Please be careful.  The world has changed since the 60s.  There are more holes.   :?

Sometime in between last November and the November after next.

I always knew you cared  :heart:

She just doesn't want to trip on you when you fall.

Specifically, she doen't want any marks on your skin or the meat to get bruised...

It rubs the lotion on its skin or it gets the Hrose again.

 :crying_panda:

You people are so mean.  Don't worry, El Gallo, I care.  In fact, I'd like to hug you to within an inch of your life... or more.

85 minute interview podcast with Pete Hines:

main page
http://www.gamingsteve.com/

direct link
http://www.gamingsteve.com/podcasts/Gaming-Steve-2006-02-20.mp3

speaking of ai, this is pretty cool:

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060216/blumberg_01.shtml

Big mile stone must have passed, there are about a dozen new hands-on previews from different places up overnight.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=244903

The couple that I read mentioned how stable the game was and that everything seemed to be finished and ready to go so I'm guessing a gold announcement soonish and in stores a few weeks after that.


check out the video interview with Pete Hines: http://media.pc.ign.com/media/702/702491/vids_1.html

At the end he pretty much says they will be making a gold announcement in the next week or two.

Not all seems well in Oblivionland. (http://wiredblogs.tripod.com/games/index.blog?entry_id=1422030)

I always felt Bethesdasoft was unreliable with lots of luck. They should have just remade daggerfall instead of dicking around with this for 3 years. Then they could've moved on to fucking up the Fallout license.

That article is the one and only time I actually hoped for one of those annoying sigs which detail a computer system, for all I know he's trying to run it on an old computer.

I wonder if it will run better on a high end computer or the 360.  With the 360 are you able to patch a game using the hard drive and more importantly has that ever been done?  I ask because I know that regardless of its release date there will be quite a few spectacular bugs and if you are unable to patch them it will be very frustrating.

I got the impression that the preview was on the 360?

It WAS on the 360. He never mentioned a PC version in there.

You had me worried there with the description on that link. If all he is going to bitch about is the draw distance and frame rate on the console versions, then officially I'm still in pre-Oblivion orgasm mode.

Oh, sorry my mind tunes out for at least a sentence or two as soon as I read the words "the highly anticipated", it's an automatic gag reflex.

In that case I choose to blame it entirely on the 360 hardware.  Yes I know that's not a fair or legitimate stance but I'm going to stick with it so that I can naively hope that the game will run flawlessly when I get it home.  Delusions are perfectly acceptable so long as you recognize them.

Frequent loading is pretty much always a RAM limitation; it could easily be the 512MB of system RAM on the 360 that's causing that.  See EQ2 for the difference going from 512 to 1024 system RAM makes on loading (I have 2048 so if my machine chokes on loads they have problems.)  Pop in would be more related to video card issues, obviously the 360's video card is high end, but pop in of graphical extra's is not something thats a make or break deal for me, if the individual leaves popping in at 10 meters bothers me then I will disable them, if it's not an option to disable them I might whine a bit.

There are gameplay movies floating around that show little to no pop-in and view distances that go pretty damned far though so I'll keep an eye open for further complaints but it's not really affecting my purchase decision yet.

Oblivion's still a pre-order/day 1 item for me.

Yeah, once I saw it was the 360 I felt a bit better. I am not really a graphics whore, but that didn't sound too good in the preview.


I will buy it the day after it comes out, since I won't hear it is out until someone here buys it  :-D

I am going to wait on this.  I felt burned by Morrowind.  The high-end graphics plus large mostly static world plus boring combat made the game feel like a chore.  And if I have suffer through another "Chosen One" contribed story-line again, I am gonna go Haemish.

I'll wait to after release and see if any of this AI hype pans out.

I'm personally guessing Oblivion will be better in a lot of ways, but it'll be buggy as fuck to start, quests will be broken, and performance will be an issue. There will be a good half dozen bugfix patches, maybe some official addons, gameplay/script/quest problems will most likely end up being fixed by fans.

This is the PC version by the way. The 360 version will suck.

As for the blog impressions, that doesn't really surpise me all that much. Flip a coin on the constant loading and severe framerate/terrain pop-in being fixed a small bit by release.

A "me too" post, but it is obvious this guy isn't familiar with LOD or "console limitations".  He might not realize it but he's complaining about the 360 rather than Oblivion.  In fact, I have better hopes for the PC version of TESIV, since my optimism allows me to think the PC version will have better performance/shiney if run on a capable machine... meaning it won't be limited by the constraints applied to the 360 version.  PC port to 360, Yeg happy; 360 port to PC, Yeg smash.

Despite what that guy says, I still highly doubt the PC version will look as good or run as good as the 360 version. What's more than that, I doubt the game itself will be very good. My faith in bethsoft drops by the minute, rather than the month or day.

Should that be in green, or is it something else we can cast back at you in a couple of months so you can say 'That's not actually what I meant if you read carefully, between the lines, wearing your decoder ring' ?

Which part? That the 360 version will simply be better in all aspects or that my faith in bethsoft drops by the minute? I stand by both. The 360 version will sell more copies. They'll put more love into it. Or money. But what's the difference these days anyway? As for the second part, I fear Bethsoft will have a 4-5 year cycle on making the Fallout game and it will suck balls.

"Look as Good or Run as Good as the 360 Version.  "

Cool.

Cya then.

 :wink:

The audio interview I posted above has a part two up (with more next week) with this guys impressions from playing the PC and 360 versions for about 6 hours at Bethsoft.

He addresses that bloggers pop-in complaint and says he noticed no such thing in either version (except the emperors hair which flickered in on one of his times through the intro *shrug*).  He mentions that in his opinion the PC version looked and ran better but the 360 controllers seemed to provide a more intuitive play experience from a 'feel' POV.  Finally, he mentions repeatedly that 6 hours with the game has done nothing but make him even more eager to get the game than he was before he got a hands on.  I don't recall him addressing the load times issue but I was listening while working and there are people constantly asking me questions throughout the day and I usually just let the thing run while I answer (I'm not so infatuated that I had to rewind and hear every little detail :)

I have no idea what the guys qualifications are or his history of reviews or with Bethsoft.


edit: He's (gamingsteve) got the GDC video of Spore (35 min) up on his front page.  I had never seen it before but um, wow thats quite the sandbox.

edit the second:

Um, may wanna think about that a bit dude. Oblivion was started a PC title before the 360 version was started. The PC version is getting the toolset. The PC version can also be patched and have the graphics quality adjusted.

Also, the Xbox version of Morrowind was utter shit compared to the PC version in every way.

Shhhh, don't spoil it.

Ironically, on the PC Morrowind was utter shit as well. It's tough when the bar is set that you have to actually work to make it shittier. Also, the xbox didn't have near enough on board memory (graphics, ram or otherwise) to even be a reasonable contestant for a platform to play Morrowind on. The 360 has it in spades. Also, PC Gaming is dead. Much like Deus Ex 2 was made for consoles, enjoy your new white and silver overlord. Sure, there are exception, but the retailers don't give a shit. Not when Oblivion 360 is out pre-selling Oblivion PC 10 to 1.

You keep singing the same tune while I destroy other civilizations all over the galaxy on my PC with no alternative on your treasured consoles in sight.

Roleplaying Games of the non-action variant and Turn Based Strategy Games seem really lacking on consoles. I really thought about kicking my PC out and do my serious stuff on the Mac while playing my games on a console. Doesn't work yet for my particular gaming tastes.

You're joking, right?

Compared to PCs, no I am not.

Of course, you have a different taste in games than me. It is fine you love your console, want to give it a name and have little half-console kids with it. For me, most console titles don't have the appeal and durability needed for me to love a game. Thats why I said "My particular gaming tastes" and I would like you to crawl off my back because for me games are not fast food to be consumed and quickly forgotten.

Maybe you should explain what "Roleplaying Games of the non-action variant and Turn Based Strategy Games seem really lacking on consoles" means then. Like what sort of games are you playing right now on your PC?

Right now? Lets see, I have installed (and play according to mood)

ADOM
Astral Masters
Civilization 4
Darklands
Galactic Civilization 2
Magic: The Gathering
Master of Magic
Need for Speed: Most Wanted
Nethack
Neverwinter Nights
Uplink
Warlords 4

The Roleplaying Games I mean are things like the old Bards Tales, Wizardrys, Ultimas, Dark Heart of Uukrul. The Gold Box games. That stuff.

Do we want to go there?

Disgaea/2
Vanguard Bandits
Makai Kingdom
Lost in Blue
Animal Crossing
Fire Emblem/1&2GBA
Final Fantasy Tactics/Advance
Hoshigami
Kartia
Rhapsody
Generation of Chaos
La Pucelle Tactics
Brigadine
Gladius
Age of Empires DS
Battles: Prince of Persia
Advance Wars/2/DS
Rebelstar
Stella Deus
Suikoden Tactics
Romance of the Three Kingdoms 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10
Shaman King
Phantom Brave
Harvest Moon/7 different varieties
River King
Culdcept
Outpost Kaloki
Full Spectrum Warrior/Ten Ton Hammer
Wrath Unleashed
Magic: Battlegrounds
Tactics Ogre/2/GBA
Earthbound (arguably)

That's just stuff on my shelf (except some of the sequels - like Romance and Tactics Ogre [le sigh]). I would highly suggest you don't go down this wrote. I will smite you with the burning fire of a thousand superior TBS and RPG titles.

The problem here, Matt, is that you don't understand Japan and Turn Based Spreadsheets.

BtW, NWN doesn't fall into either of your categories - at all. And Need for Speed is reaching - especially when you know those people got out of their car and shot eachother after the race. The only questionable one on my list is Earthbound.

[ Bah schild beat me to it oh well I don't feel like rewriting this ]

Have you tried any of the console SRPGs like Disgaea or Gladius? And Japanese RPGs are nothing but the latest in the evolution the CRPG formulas pioneered by Wizardry and Ultima. Empire-building turn-based strategy games like Civ or GalCiv are a bit lacking on the console side though there is Romance of Three Kingdoms like schild mentioned.

Whatever Japan pulled from early American stuff is completely unnoticeable. It's not even worth comparing. Older titles like Shining Force and Langrisser was doing more advanced stuff in the 80s in Japan than we were doing here. Hell, than we're doing now. Gladius is a completely JSRPG ripoff. As far as Empire building goes - I don't know how else to say it, but total army building in the NIS stuff (La Pucelle, Makai Kingdom, Phantom Brave, and most of all Disgaea) is more indepth than any PC strategy game to date. ANY. As far as Civ and GalCiv goes, I'm not entirely sure they could compete against the staples of console gaming. Keyboards are a necessity. They'd have to be stripped down. Yet somehow, Romance X feels like a more advanced sim title than Civ 4. Color me surprised. I don't even have the balls to play all the way through a game on Romance yet. It's too intimidating. Civ 4 turned out to be a shelf-sitter. If I ever want to play a gussied up version of Civ 1, I'll play Civ 4. Sid Meier has no new ideas.

Here's the thing. I love PC gaming. It's the most natural feeling gaming for me. But frankly, PC Gaming doesn't offer me much that consoles don't. And more often than not, PC TBS and Sim titles are completely lacking in story, while the foundation of a good TBS title on a console is the story they build the game around. When you look at the total package, if Tebonas is being straight up, he should own a PS2 and this conversation never should have happened. But then, I don't know how many of those titles made it to Europe.

I give you Romance of Three Kingdoms, loved those old PC ports and the later should be even better.

Sounds like I would have some options if I bought a PS3 then, but still not the same options I have with my PC. Maybe I can work myself up to a one of both kinds deal, but I see nothing there that replaces the high replayability of some old PC titles, even if for no other reason than plain nostalgia.

The problem is right as Schild suspected. Most of these tiltes didn't make it to my retail outlets here. I know some specialized game outlets for my PC needs, but consoles might screw me over with that whole PAL/NTSC nonsense. All we got in our supermarkets are what is suspected to sell good. Knowing our youth, that are mostly adaptions from movies and TV series, sports and action games. I can order my PC games directly from the USA if need be, no such luck with consoles.

Edit: Neverwinter Nights is only a substitude until the next thing comes along, some of those community modules are really good. Need for Speed is just for blowing off steam when I feel like it. Just went from top to bottom on my desktop, didn't want to hold back on you people.

The army (or party) building SRPGs aren't 4X games, though, which makes them totally different style and Tebonas clearly likes the 4X genre. Maybe he would like them (it's hard not to like Disgaea if you enjoy tactical turn-based combat) which is why I asked if he had tried it or Gladius.

If you're into TBS games you're into TBS games. If you're into 4x games, you're into a TINY subset of a genre. Tiny Tiny Tiny. Hell, if you're into any computer specific genre you're into a tiny corner of a genre. Simply put, there are more TBS games out there than you can shake a stick at. Yet no one has made one in a horror setting yet., I mean real supernatural horror. God, a combination of horror and strategy nearly makes me twitch. I want to summon an old one.

To be fair I like the party building RPGs most. The list is only skewed because there are not many I haven't played several times and didn't bother to reinstall them yet since my last PC reinstall.

Where are you getting that number from?  I would have thought that with the 360 supply problems even if every single person in North America who has a 360 buys Oblivion that it still wouldn't be able to outsell the PC  :-P.

As an aside, Bethesda has set the official launch date as March 20th, so there won't be another six month delay.

Harvest Moon was forgotten on that list, and it belongs even if Natsume milks that damn franchise worse than Capcom does Mega Man.

I'd love it if Oblivion was a good game, but really I'd hold more faith in a Gothic 3 being worth the time.  Morrowind was a really underwhelming game.

Oh, this discussion again?

Someone let me know when it actually amounts to something other than e-peen waiving.

News flash, consoles out-sell PC's for game purchases since 1978.  PC gaming still alive, kicking and innovating, more at 11.

MY DICK IS HUGE.

No.  It wasn't.

Come over and see my Morrowind house.  You can play with the stuff on the floor but DON'T TOUCH THE STUFF ON THE SHELVES OK ?

I guess we'll know soon enough (http://www.elderscrolls.com/news/press_030206.htm).

My inner fanboy is erect with anticipation.

If someone were to simply update the graphics of X-COM and make a <insert theme> TC, they could do the Scrooge McDuck money-dive within a month.

Stupid Gollops.


Maybe you just don't like Morrowind itself, but the PC version was the Real game.  Did you play the PC version?  I suspect so, but I had to ask.


Been dead for a while, but I still get good stuff on it... my questionable tastes aside.  Plus, I can't think of a console that I can do my taxes on.  And if I am going to own a Cube, why not a PC too?  Weak arguments FTW!  I rock.


I am going to love it no matter how it turns out.

I'll pick it up. It's guaranteed to serve up massive hours of gameplay.

MMOs ruined me for Morrowind.  I played it for awhile and thought it sucked.  Then I realized I had spent the last 45 minutes jumping in place in town to increase Acrobatics.  Then I went to bed to cry.

Yeah, doing such things lose their appeal if you don't have other people around you egging you on by doing the same retarded things.

For me Morrowind was a MMorpg without other people around you, which improved it for me.

The ideal Elder Scrolls world (or most any RPG world) would be one with a storyline you can go through yourself or with friends, though cutscenes are all from a one player perspective. In other words, I'd want to set up an f13 server and have you fuckers wandering around my world.

I've thought for a long while now that micro-sized persistant worlds is the real future of gaming and that this massive stuff will die with a whimper because of the cost of content creation for a million catasses.

See, I never did that kind of stuff in Morrowind. I knew it was an option but I just didn't do it.  No casting the same spell xMillion times just to raise destruction or whatever.  Skills went up plenty quick just doing normal activites in the game.  To each his own, but I stopped doing those sorts of things in games a LONG time ago - if they are required to advance then I stop playing the game, Morrowind did not require that you do that (at least in my experience.)

Yes, lord knows those Civilization games all went over like lead balloons. And GalCiv is tanking big time (http://forums.galciv2.com/index.aspx?forumid=161&aid=104297&c=1).

I get what you're saying, they're a small percentage of the total "TBS genre." But they do sell, and nothing quite like them exists on consoles to my knowledge.

My thoughts exactly.  Simple enough.

You're out of your fucking mind. Now I'm starting to suspect you're getting M$. The idea that a console will run a game better than a high-end pc is stupid. In a couple years, mid-lifecycle, a mid-range pc will beat it out. And by the end of the life cycle (the xbox last year), somebody's grandma's online poker pc can dust it.

I remember reading about how innovative the Emotion Engine for the PS2 was, how it was going to be a paradigm shift away from low bandwitch/low speed communication and huge memory areas. It was going to be all about throughput, so you 'wouldn't need' those big buckets, because the big pipes would keep everything moving. Except it was totally wrong, and the PS2 had shitty textures, shitty anti-aliasing, shitty polygons. You /need/ the big buckets /and/ the big pipes, and you can only get that in a pc.

If you think the 360 version of Oblivion is going to look or run better than a top end AMD64 rig loaded with 2GB RAM and some 7800GTX SLI, you're japaretarded.
The 360 has it in spades? Spades? Do you know what that means? The 360 only has double the memory of my /video card/. And shares that with the system. My pc has double the system memory. My pc is two years old, yet has 1.25GB of memory for gpu/cpu, and the 360 has 512. Spades? Right. Oh, windows overhead must be using that other 725MB RAM.

PC gaming is dead? Your console bias doesn't make that a reality, it makes it a troll. How many pc gamers do you know that are buying their games on consoles now, instead of pc? Maybe a few exclusive /in addition/ to the pc games they play. But "Screw this pc, I'm buying an xbox"? Puh-lease. Not everyone is you, schild. In fact, very few are. Look at your game shelf. That's not normal. At least I admit I'm a niche audience, you seem to think you are the common man.

Stop it, you sly rogue.  I'm giggling.

 :heart: U SKY!

You should be crying when you do this in a MMO.  How about, I don't know, playing the game instead of being a dork?

(http://www.thenoobcomic.com/images/20050211.jpg)

That could be you!

Im sure Blizzard would agree, as they wipe they asses with $100 bills.

It's all about standardization. Sure, I have more PC Games from the last than I do any console (except maybe the PS2) and I definately don't have console bias. I own every system and gladly support every system. But I call it as I see them. Blizzard and Valve are a respirator for the PC gaming industry. But let's just break it down this specific situation for fun.

1. Your graphics card at release probably cost as much as the 360 premium. Yet people were complaining about the price of the 360. Right.
2. The 360 is a standardized platform, optimization is easy compared to PCs. There may be a few machines out there that will outperform the 360. But it won't be the norm and 90% of PC Gamers will probably never see the PC version in 1080i. You might, grats ding, don't care. Because of #1.
3. You have your PC plugged into a projector and play on a couch. Your PC is a console. You treat it as such. How you are so pro PC evades me.

-

As for Stormwaltz's comments - you just made my point. I just called that stuff a tiny subset and you only managed to name, at total, about 7 games if you count up all the Firaxis stuff that falls into that category. I wasn't talking about number sold (though I'm fairly sure many on my list outside most on the PC list), but rather variety of games. You know why I stopped playing Civ 4? It was a shiny, shiny, shiny Civ 1. No new storyline or anything, just more. You know why I'll play Disgaea 2? The gameplay of Disgaea 1 with more brilliant story. That's one of my biggest problems with PC tactics titles, story is pretty much thrown out the window. But I'm pretty sure I already said that somewhere.

-


(http://www.mass.gov/dos/images/respirator.jpg)

The only thing I can think of that this means is that you have been in Signe's sex toy closet again.

I believe that was his response to:

The 360 has it in spades? Spades? Do you know what that means? The 360 only has double the memory of my /video card/. And shares that with the system. My pc has double the system memory. My pc is two years old, yet has 1.25GB of memory for gpu/cpu, and the 360 has 512. Spades? Right. Oh, windows overhead must be using that other 725MB RAM.


Which is to say, not a response at all, but rather a way of ignoring this excellent point.

Actually, I think he was trying to tell me to "Breath".

But referencing Signe's sex toys was much more fun.

Well, she calls it a closet but it's actually a converted doublewide trailer...

Actually, he was remaking his point about Blizzard being a 'respirator' for PC Gaming.

I tend to like my PC gaming precisely because it has no story. I may be a bit of a WoW junkie at the moment but I cut my teeth on TBS games which were substance, substance, substance and no real style; a bit of a vague backstory and they turn you loose.

I love it. I'm looking forward to Spore because it lets me play in a huge world doing a bunch of nothing and make the story I want to make. I love Civ X and GalCiv 2 for the same reason. Morrowind/Oblivion, same.

That's just different strokes and all that but I don't see many games like that on the console. A few but not as many.

I changed the title of this thread slightly so this hopeless fucking derail that goes on for pages on this thread looks like insightful commentary I sparked at the outset  :-D

First off, I don't have any sex toys.  I don't even like sex.  Second, I don't know what the fuck that thing is and where the bloody hell you could stick it!!

Unfortunately, time has proven that optimization and standardization != better quality. I'm sure it'll be different this time!  :roll:
It's connected to a DLP rptv, actually. How I am so pro-PC? Quality.

Also, my PC is not a 'console'. Can I record and mix music on a console? Do my taxes? Buy stuff? Pay my bills? Post on f13? Run thousands of free software? Process my photography? Process my pornography? The 360 is a game platform. Aren't all the media features streaming, necessitating a pc (honest question, I haven't listened closely).

I won't argue that the console segment has grown immensely. I wouldn't expect John Public to maintain a modern pc. But I've been using computers since 1975. I'll stick with them, thanks. They've ALWAYS been a better gaming platform, except for sofa multiplayer, which I don't really do these days. Consoles definitely have their place (I mean...I own an xbox and gc for crissakes...I just don't have a ton of games for them...exclusives only).

And the games are better on the pc, even games on super-optimized platforms like the PS2. I'm talking about GTA:SA. It's better on the pc, period. And Battlefield. Then there is Civ and HoMaM. As I said, if you truly believe Oblivion will be a better gaming experience on the 360 than on a 2005 gaming computer (same 'gen' as the 360)....well, nothing I can say can pierce that kind of delusion.

Oh, and the TES:Construction Set.

This is the important bit to remember about TESIV and is the biggest single factor that made TESIII on PC superior, followed closely by loading times.  Even if you aren't going to use TESCS, the load times on Morrowind for Xbox are night-and-day from the PC version.  I see no reason for it to be different with TESIV.

That said... lots of people will and should get the 360 version, since they won't have a gaming rig to properly run the game but will or can get a 360 plugged in.  Which version is better depends on which machine someone has is better: PC or 360.  Any TESIV is better than zero.

Hmm the games you like yes. I have a kick ass PC and a 360 both connected to a Sammy HLN56" DLP. I play EVE (MMORPGS), FPS games, and strategy games on my PC. I play Project Gotham III, FIFA, NHL2K6, DoA and Kameo on my 360. My racing and sports games on the 360 far outclass anything on the PC - just due to the nature of the games and the ability to play with friends on my couch. The PC kicks the hell out the 360 for MMOGs, FPS and TBS/God games. I win both ways, neither is 'better' than the other.

If you all you own is a hammer, you tend to treat everything as a nail.

That said i will get this title for the PC.

That's all I was saying.

Do you all know the release date is March 20?  Just thought I'd throw that out there in case El Gallo hasn't been refreshing elderscrolls.com lately.

Assuming there are no more delays of course...

Receipt for my EBGames preorder is in my wallet, of course.

I wish they would add Co-op to Elder Scrolls. I think it would be really fun to play through with a friend.

I do, too.  If it's as big as the last one, I NEED someone to play it with... preferably my hubby, but nearly any of you lot will do in a pinch, too.  But, it seems, that eventually I'll just resort to my usual cheating ways when it's gets to be too much for me.

Sitting at my desk right now watching the PC Gamer Video's of this game.

Fuck me gently, but it looks good.

Linky to video please?

Well, it's on my desk in DVD form.  I guess it might be downloadable somewhere.  You could buy the magazine and whatnot.

Hmmm.

Is that the PC Gamer UK edition?

Yeah.

I'd probably have the game before it (the magazine) came in the mail.

She puts her dog to sleep and then sets it on fire.

I'm fairly sure that wasn't meant to be in the video.  Some complaints incoming I think.

Personally, I'd buy the game on the strength of that alone.

The putting the dog to sleep then burning it was on a video that's been linked elsewhere in this thread.

Ahh, ok I've seen that.  It's from last years E3 closed doors presentation.  I don't know if the AI is still going to be that dynamic, recent interviews have said that they have spent a lot of time 'tuning' the AI not to go over the top with its emergent gameplay (like brawls between guards and townspeople in the cities that escalate out of control and end up killing everyone before the PC ever even gets there.)

I thought it was cute. But after having thought about it for a long time, how is "when task = tedious; dog = yippy; result = fire" emergent gameplay? It's just very well scripted shit. Emergent gameplay will occur when I light the dog on fire and throw him down the stairs and the girl goes, "Excuse me, but did you just light my dog on fire and throw him down the stairs?" "Yes" "Good Show. He was getting rather obnoxious."


If that could happen. I'd buy their brand of tea. It would also make for a crazy amazing game if the only person left was the quest giver. Ohhhhh the corpses to loot.

Don't think so, as there were 7 videos, one of which was entitled 'e3 presentation'.  I'm guessing the other six are new, but possibly I'm wrong.

It's been known.

Anyway, if that's last years footage, it could only have got, you know, better, and it DOES look slick polished and lovely in these other 6 videos...


Edited to add :  hmmmm.  I think you could be right.  That's not hurting my enthusiasm anyways.  If that's what it was like a year ago....

I wish you all luck with your Elder Scrolls dreams.  My bet is that it looks good, the AI is a buggy piece of shit, and you can exploit-kill every mob by getting it stuck on a dropped bag.  They'll try to fix it wil a patch but there will still be an unpassable bug in the main story which they won't fix for three months.

Wait for the reviews...

We just got a puppy.  It's only 5 months old, would you like to come over and kick it?

The great thing about single player games is that exploits do not affect me in the slightest.  I'm not going to go out of my way to trivialize the content just so I can end a game I paid good money for quickly. 

Bugs that prevent me from progressing are the devil though.

Yes, they'll be there.  Yes, I'll be pissed.  Yes, I'll still buy the game at release because that's the way we've always done it and we liked it!

What Dren Said.

And Blow Me.

I will love it despite its flaws.  I won't need to wait for the reviews.  I'll play it and love it, and I'll download the TESCS and fix bugs myself, same as I did with TESIII.

I wonder what people who play computer games but aren't on the internets do about buggy games?  They wouldn't know when there's a patch to fix the bugs or help available when they get stuck.  They probably don't even know how to cheat when they stop caring about the game.  Having said all that... why do I still envy people who aren't online yet?

I blame The Vault, Signe. That place makes me wonder where sex-ed went wrong. It's the only website with a smell; Broken latex.

 :heart:

These are the same people who buy a $1500 TV and attach it to an old aerial antenna.  Their logic is impenetrable.

All I know is that PC gaming has been declared deceased every year since ~1990.

I wish it would hurry up all ready.

Anyhoo! Off to more GalCiv!

Just because something is dead doesn't mean stuff still isn't being made. There's still an American company that makes Pinball machines, but arcades in america are dead as we know it. There's still a company out there making Pogs. Dead != Extinct.

Schild, seriously man, give up the rhetoric.  I've been hearing this statement since the mid 90's and you know what?  The only games I am interested in playing this year are coming out on the PC.

The fact that you discount MMOG gaming is a serious hole in your stance, it's a prime example of the how the flexibility of PC's continues to make them relevent versus the how the dedicated purpose of consoles constantly leaves them behind the leading edge.

It's not the flexibility anymore. It's the lack of a mouse/keyboard/hdd on consoles that's keeping the gap from being bridged. I do not discount MMOGs in any way whatsoever. I just want compelling games. The current and nearly all of the upcoming crop of MMOGs doesn't offer that. I'm just not willing to accept mediocrity anymore.

It's great that you're only looking forward to PC titles. That has no bearing on whether or not any console/handheld titles are coming out that are worth your time. It just means you'll miss them.

But that doesn't mean that PC gaming is dead or unimportant, it just means that I will miss out on a few games that I might have enjoyed.  It's not pokemon, I don't have to catch them all.

Murg-Teenie-Tiny-Table-Tops, it is Pokemon and you DO have to catch them all!

Countdown to release video:

http://elderscrolls.com/downloads/media_movies.htm

Sounds like they are going to do one of these a day until next week.  The video seems a little dark but I think they are trying to show the dynamic lighting change around one of the oblivion gates (which I assume will be shown the day before release).  If that frame rate and detail level are actually achievable on a mortal rig I may have to go against everything I hold dear and buy leading edge computer parts (I'm looking at you Mr. Video Card.)

If you can resist catch-them-all (I have a tough time with this), surely you can just wait until 2007 to turn on all of the bells and whistles.  This time next year should give us one or two more iterations of video-cocks, so just bide your time.

A year is a long time to wait w/ an unopened game staring you down.

When you can snatch the stone from my hand, you may open Oblivion.

Do they have monty hats? And money toilet paper? Hell, money suits?

Not a good comparison.

Goddamn stores stock the shelves with empty cases.

My Tears Fall Like Rose Petals on a Wounded Dog.

Lit on fire and thrown down stairs.

This game makes my system cry, but it is playable at lower settings (2.8 ghz, 1 gig, Radeon 9800). I have started looking into vid card upgrades (damn you, PCI-E!)

When is it due to be available for you?   It is on Direct2Drive for North America if you have someone you trust you could probaby get it.


It runs well on my 3500+ at 1024x1280 but with my 9800 Pro I can't turn on AA and that's even at 800x600.  I have a new PCI-E MB on the shelf I just haven't bought a new video card yet.

I've only played a few hours but it's enjoyable so far and thank goodness the NPC's aren't overly wordy.  I tried starting Morrowind several times and just couldn't get into it.  This one is very similar interface wise but it's nowhere near as ugly and I don't feel like I'm moving at glacial speeds.

Merged recent talk to here (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=6330.0).

There are entire "companies" doing little more than carve replacement wooden spokes for Model T's.  Damn automobile - just an aberration, a fad, when you can sip Starbucks on the train. ;)

You will change your avatar before I stab you in ZEE EYES. By the way, welcome back, it's nice to see you. Wondered where you ran off to last month (well, almost 2 months ago now).