SWTOR

[Draegan]

I guess people are angry because they can't be a moisture farmer.

I'm angry they're going with the same old "three jobs required, two of which nobody likes" routine we're all sick of.

Companions?

[sam, an eggplant]

Yes, the plan is that companions will fill necessary roles in the party. For example, 4 damage dealing classes could overcome group content by taking along 3 healing companions and one tank companion.

Now how effective that will be, and how well you'll do with companions taking on essential roles, remains to be seen. The AI requirements would be pretty steep, otherwise you end up micromanaging your pet rather filling your character's role.

[WindupAtheist]

Is there just some kinda meme out there among developers that if you make every class a balls-out fun one-man army ala Diablo, nobody will stick with the game? If so, where the fuck does it come from?

[sam, an eggplant]

The prevailing wind is blowing in the exact opposite direction, actually. Back in the EQ days most classes couldn't even solo at all; if you wanted to progress your character you had to join a group, full stop. I remember sitting at the zone-in to lower guk trying for a group for almost two hours. Every 5 minutes or so, "/ooc lvl whatever ranger LFG", and nothing. The developers were convinced that player dependence was on the critical path to success. Obviously they were wrong, because DaOC allowed players to level through PvP and grinding (although its success is debatable), and of course subsequently WoW concluded that particular argument when it allowed players to solo to maxlevel through directed quest-based leveling.

Now obviously some content needs to be restricted to groups of players, otherwise there's literally no reason to have your game multiplayer in the first place. You need to hold something back.

[Malakili]

The prevailing wind is blowing in the exact opposite direction, actually. Back in the EQ days most classes couldn't even solo at all; if you wanted to progress your character you had to join a group, full stop. I remember sitting at the zone-in to lower guk trying for a group for almost two hours. Every 5 minutes or so, "/ooc lvl whatever ranger LFG", and nothing. The developers were convinced that player dependence was on the critical path to success. Obviously they were wrong, because DaOC allowed players to level through PvP and grinding (although its success is debatable), and of course subsequently WoW concluded that particular argument when it allowed players to solo to maxlevel through directed quest-based leveling.

Now obviously some content needs to be restricted to groups of players, otherwise there's literally no reason to have your game multiplayer in the first place. You need to hold something back.

To me its less solo v. group as it is 1v1 fights and 1vmany fights.  One of the best parts of Diablo is leaving entire demon amries in your wake.  In WoW i get to level 80 and fight REALLY POWERFUL kobolds 1 on 1.  I mean sure, a lot of classes can take 2 or 3 at a time pretty efficiently, but that isn't my point.

You could do that, and STILL have group content, hypothetically.  This is why I've been saying, Diablo III is more likely to "kill WoW' than anything else.  WoW is just a loot collection game ala Diablo II at this point, but with some more social stuff and raiding.  Diablo III is going to be better at everything that I play WoW for in the first place.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The fact that you people seem to think there is going to eight separate single player games worth of story to this game is beyond quaint.  This is an MMO, you will get an MMO worth of story, which means questing.  You may get some deviation depending on your class but don't expect much, if you played AOC you will know exactly what you're getting.

All I can say is that I have high hopes for SWTOR's single-player experience.

Same exact thing people said about AoC, then they realized tortage wasn't the entire game. Beta testing or not, I'm willing to bet you aren't seeing people playing to max level.

[DLRiley]

Its not a matter of group vs solo anymore. that debate has been settled. its whether or not the group gameplay that has to exist is compelling. If its not than playing with your friends is only a glorified chat lobby.

[Rendakor]

Why the fuck are people surprised that they're going tank/healer/meleedps/rangeddps? This game is going to be WoW Star Wars. Stop shitting up the thread complaining that this isn't fucking SWG 2.0.

[Malakili]

Same exact thing people said about AoC, then they realized tortage wasn't the entire game. Beta testing or not, I'm willing to bet you aren't seeing people playing to max level.

This was one of the major problems with the Champions Online (and Star Trek Online) limited beta test schedule.  I didn't care much for STO rigtht from the get go, but I thought Champions Online was/(is!) pretty fun sort of in isolation, but the big picture kind of sucks when you talk about levelling up, advancing through the game and so forth.  The great balance patch fiasco that ended up costing them big time (I think) was directly due to that fact that their beta testing schedule allowed them to test the individual elements of their game, but never really let them see how their meta game would work.  The result was/is a game that is actually kind of fun to play, but has just doesn't really "work" as an MMO.  

I guess we will have to see.

[Draegan]

I thought both games, STO and Champs, were shit from the moment I tried them.

[WindupAtheist]

Now obviously some content needs to be restricted to groups of players, otherwise there's literally no reason to have your game multiplayer in the first place. You need to hold something back.

If only Diablo 2 had healing/tanking classes and group-only content, then people might have played it online with one another.

[Velorath]

The fact that you people seem to think there is going to eight separate single player games worth of story to this game is beyond quaint.  This is an MMO, you will get an MMO worth of story, which means questing.  You may get some deviation depending on your class but don't expect much, if you played AOC you will know exactly what you're getting.

All I can say is that I have high hopes for SWTOR's single-player experience.

Same exact thing people said about AoC, then they realized tortage wasn't the entire game. Beta testing or not, I'm willing to bet you aren't seeing people playing to max level.

Funcom didn't have anywhere near the money EA is throwing at SWTOR, which is what prevented them from making the rest of the game like Tortage.

[sam, an eggplant]

If only Diablo 2 had healing/tanking classes and group-only content, then people might have played it online with one another.

You're trying to make the opposite point, but you somehow managed to forget that most people didn't play with others in diablo2, they just used battle.net to trade items. Any reasonably built character could solo the entire game through hell baal, so there was no particular incentive to group up. Obviously if you had friends playing it could be fun, but there was no carrot on the end of the stick.

[DLRiley]

I think you guys are mistaking the incentive to group with the incentive to pug.

[Ingmar]

It is also somewhat an open question whether people would have ponied up a sub fee for D2 levels of multiplayer.

[DLRiley]

Given the alternatives? Yes.

[Lantyssa]

Why the fuck are people surprised that they're going tank/healer/meleedps/rangeddps? This game is going to be WoW Star Wars. Stop shitting up the thread complaining that this isn't fucking SWG 2.0.

I don't recall healers in the previous KotOR games.  So I was just kinda sorta hoping we'd stick with that instead of going for the Holy Trinity incarnate.

[Ingmar]

Why the fuck are people surprised that they're going tank/healer/meleedps/rangeddps? This game is going to be WoW Star Wars. Stop shitting up the thread complaining that this isn't fucking SWG 2.0.

I don't recall healers in the previous KotOR games.  So I was just kinda sorta hoping we'd stick with that instead of going for the Holy Trinity incarnate.

Jedi healers isn't really anything new.

[Draegan]

Ingmar beat me to it.

[Malakili]

You know, at this point the problem is I just can't bring myself to give a shit about RPGs anymore in the long run whether there are jedi healers, or trooper tanks or farming for new light saber crystals, or whatever the hell, I just can't get excited about it.   As much as my criticism has been for this game, really any point I've made is against the genre in general.   The thought of leveling up a character/doing PvE content in any RPG and/or MMO just makes me want to take a nap.   Thats probably  a burn out issue, and not the fault of any developer, but I've just lost the ability to see the appeal anymore.

[DLRiley]

I don't mind leveling up in an rpg, its literally bothers me to the point of uninstall to level up in an mmo. I know friends to this day that don't understand the difference between the two.

[Margalis]

This just in:  People who disliked every previous SWTOR video dislike most recent SWTOR video!

Anyone who thinks that footage looked "polished" is delusional.

[Velorath]

This just in:  People who disliked every previous SWTOR video dislike most recent SWTOR video!

Anyone who thinks that footage looked "polished" is delusional.

I'd say that for a game that will probably hit Q2 2011 at the earliest, it's at least somewhat polished if your biggest complaint is a lack of shadows.

Meanwhile, FFXIV comes out in a few months and from the what they've been saying in interviews they've made some fairly significant changes to core gameplay stuff.  Don't see you over in that thread nitpicking everything though.

[Rendakor]

Thanks Ingmar; I knew I had Bastilla specced as a healbot in KOTOR. My main character I had decked out in the best armor I could find (tank) and my third party member was HK-47 (ranged dps). The only notable change we'll see in SWTOR is that your tank will also have to dps, since most of us will be duoing (PC + Companion).

I really don't get why people expect MMOs to be anything different than what's come before. The best we can hope for from SWTOR is KOTOR + WoW. If they give me KOTOR III, I'll be happy with the purchase; if there are somehow 8 unique stories, I'll be impressed.

[sam, an eggplant]

I think non-diku MMOs are great. But people are foolish to think anything with the budget of SWTOR would be anything but diku-based. They're spending too much money to take chances.

[Rendakor]

Fair point; I figured it would be obvious since the series (KOTOR, not SW in general) has its roots in DIKU; the original KOTOR even uses the d20 system.

[Goreschach]

Fair point; I figured it would be obvious since the series (KOTOR, not SW in general) has its roots in DIKU; the original KOTOR even uses the d20 system.

d20 is a tabletop system. It has nothing to do with DIKU.

[Malakili]

Fair point; I figured it would be obvious since the series (KOTOR, not SW in general) has its roots in DIKU; the original KOTOR even uses the d20 system.

d20 is a tabletop system. It has nothing to do with DIKU.

Oh no you di'nt.

[Rendakor]

d20 is a tabletop system. It has nothing to do with DIKU.

The d20 system, being the core of 3.0 and 3.5 D&D, is an exact example of DIKU. First we've got the classes, who fit neatly into even the classic holy trinity: Tank (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian), Healer (Cleric, Druid), CC (Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer maybe), DPS (Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard), with a few left over (Monk, Bard). You've got character advancement by level and gear, you've got fantasy monsters, etc. What, exactly, is non DIKU about any of that?

[Malakili]

d20 is a tabletop system. It has nothing to do with DIKU.

The d20 system, being the core of 3.0 and 3.5 D&D, is an exact example of DIKU. First we've got the classes, who fit neatly into even the classic holy trinity: Tank (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian), Healer (Cleric, Druid), CC (Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer maybe), DPS (Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard), with a few left over (Monk, Bard). You've got character advancement by level and gear, you've got fantasy monsters, etc. What, exactly, is non DIKU about any of that?

Clearly the lineage is there.  The huge gap between computer RPGs or muds and table top though, is the DM.  I once played a campaign in which one of the PCs was a fighter with a really high charisma and the only character any NPC every knew about.  He build a reputation for being the most deadly fighter in the land because he was followed around by the other PCs (all rogues with crazy hide checks) that would kill everything without ever being seen, leaving just the fighter as this somewhat mythical combatant.  This is possible MAINLY because the DM thought it was a neat idea for a campaign and intentionally didn't put lots of encounters in there that required, say, spam heals.  (not to say anything of things like use magic device and wands of cure light or whatever)

I think thats the sort of thing that separates the two, regardless of similarities in mechanics, you'll never something like that possible in an MMO simply because its impossible balance for every quirky idea people could come up with.  Instead, you balance things around 1 part tank, 1 part healer and party size - 2 DPS, and force people to go in with more or less that balance of classes.

[Goreschach]

Advancement by level and gear could broadly define half the games ever made. And setting has fuckall to do with game systems, so I don't even know why you'd bother to mention it. Try actually playing DnD and EQ back to back, then come here and tell us the gameplay is similar.

[WindupAtheist]

snip images

And those were the only two healing 'spells' in the game, with the latter replacing the former. Really it was just one healing spell you could put an extra point into for an upgrade. One healing spell does not "a healer" make. Bastila had it and it was handy, but her main function was still asswhooping.

[Rendakor]

It's certainly possible to play a D&D game without the holy trinity, but that's largely because there are systems in place for that purpose. Going without a healer is doable (potions, UMD'd wands of CLW, etc), as is not having a CC or dedicated DPS; but playing D&D (and actually having combat, not just RPing) pretty much requires some sort of tank.

Don't get me wrong, PnP games are always going to have way more flexibility than video games. I just don't see how you can say it has "nothing to do with DIKU".


Fake edit: Originally DIKU MUDs were based on AD&D. EQ1 was based on DIKU. How is there not a connection?

[Malakili]

It's certainly possible to play a D&D game without the holy trinity, but that's largely because there are systems in place for that purpose. Going without a healer is doable (potions, UMD'd wands of CLW, etc), as is not having a CC or dedicated DPS; but playing D&D (and actually having combat, not just RPing) pretty much requires some sort of tank.

Don't get me wrong, PnP games are always going to have way more flexibility than video games. I just don't see how you can say it has "nothing to do with DIKU".


Fake edit: Originally DIKU MUDs were based on AD&D. EQ1 was based on DIKU. How is there not a connection?

Oh, I agree there is a lineage there for sure.  I just don't think you can say "well it was in table top, now its computer games" and leave it at that.  As you said so clearly:

It's certainly possible to play a D&D game without the holy trinity, but that's largely because there are systems in place for that purpose.

I guess this companions with healing spells is sort of a similar solution, but I have to say it just isn't my cup of tea anyway.  Its just too formulaic.  I don't think I ever played a 3rd edition game with a "normal" party in all my years of playing that system.  Building quirky characters and parties was/is easily my favorite part of the table top experience, including actually playing the game.   Thats the sort of thing that won't be translated well to CRPGs, and its the reason we see the reliance on the holy trinity so much.  Also, of course, because if you get a PUG of Tank/Healer/DPS DPS DPS, you can be sure you, if nothing else, have the right group makeup. Most D&D parties at least consult with each other so that they have a viable party, even if that viability is based on quirky characters and mechanics (like the rogues + warrior party I mentioned above).  Any of those characters would've had their usefulness diminished in a major way outside of that party.

[Rendakor]

Fair point; most of my D&D parties were duos, so while we didn't frequently have the holy trinity, we had a clear tank and some way of healing him. When we did have a 4 man group, we almost always had someone focus on durability, and someone else at least able to heal in some capacity. (Hell, sometimes our cleric would be the tank and the healer. Persistent DMM FTW!).

Anyway Malakili, Goreschach is the one who said that there was no connection whatsoever.