f13.net

Ya know, I hate to be so...feminine(?), but if MMOG devs need to make a cel-shaded game for women to break free of the typical lame shit associated with MMO's I'm all for it.

Here's another tidbit


Did anyone happen to sit in on this? I can't seem to find information about the story or anything. Perhaps information is as ultra thin as these reports say.

With THERE dying, it sounds like fun.

Yea, fun in the year 2005 though.

Fun to grief maybe...

You know, the title of this thread made me think of something. It's rare but it happens.

Women gaming are a HUGE demographic...but they are playing hearts and spades and such. One thing I really liked about UO was being able to sit down at a player-run tavern and enjoy a chess game with someone half a world away.

Imagine the WAF (wife approval factor) of mmogs if you could sit and play card games, or any other minigame that's netted that large female (and older aged_ demographic...and be fun for everyone else, as well. I like a good card game now and again, imagine being able to sit down and play a game of poker with your guildies, for ingame cash...

Just don't make us do some long camp to get cards....

THERE added cards and they were very popular. Unfortunately the company's board had been taken over by the investment people and it was too little too late. They had the one game of spades and never added anything else. Seems like once the card tables and interface was done, changing the rules to add other games should have been easy. But development was glacial and there was no commitment or understanding of the genre from management.

Adding this type of thing to mainstream games I think is a problem because while it might appeal to women, RPers, and other social gamers, it's not going to pass the UAF: the uber acceptance factor. Anytime you do anything in a game not oriented around the high end of action characters, the ubers have a meltdown screaming at the devs and abusing social/RP gamers for daring to want some content of our own.

Korean gaming seems to attract a lot more women than US gaming does. Ragnarok was absolutely pandering with the cute costumes and things like a valentine's day contest with the zoning graphics being replaced by pictures of couples that met in the game. Hopefully NCsoft will make the effort to keep a genre game for women going.

I watched the trailer for this at E3 and read a little flyer they handed out, but very little information as to actually how the gameplay works.  The trailer was some stylized cartoon thing (half-anime, half-Craig McCracken) involving running around and meeting up with someone in a secret club.  It's not clear if this is just supposed to be a social space, or a Sims-like simulation, or exactly what.

Bruce

Well, if they are truly throwing the male-centric gaming out the window and making a game for women, sign me on, because shit, if that's what it takes to make a kickass MMO, then do it.

Ironically, I'm pretty sure, not a soul on the planet knows how to target a game at a women, let alone women. Most women gamers I know tend to be towards the hardcore side rather than the social side. The social girls I know would rather go out and drink. I think I'll be following the development of this title pretty closely over the next 2 years.

Edit: Homonyms are hard.

Developing for catasses is so 1990's.

Catasses will become a disturbing footnote in gaming history imo, once it's properly identified and treated as a disorder.

By 2005, cel shading will be as fun and popular as the 1970's Astros uniforms. Meaning, in their day, they were all the rage - but looking back now, they look pretty ugly.

did I mention I'm sick of bumpmapped textures? oh and 2-d sprites can go away.

Dude, graphics aren't fucking fashion plates.

Edit: Also, I seem to remember these things called Polygons that were all the fad when Starfox came out. Aren't they still around?

As we should all know, the sooner developers learn the proper way to treat the Gotta Be Uber: Gotta Have 'Em All Pokemon masters in MMOG's, the better.

The proper way to treat this crowd?

FUCK THEM. FUCK THEM IN THEIR STUPID ASSES.

Or hire them to make your game!

Story driven....interesting. I'd like to see how they plan overcoming this hurdle.

They won't.

I have now saved you hours of speculation.

I agree. But I'm too old to believe in fairy tales about developers with a clue.

Companies have had better luck designing for men and having women be interested than in designing for women and dragging along the man. For all its success, The Sims did not start as a female-targetted game. EA learned that later.

Female-targetted games are a financial risk for any company that hasn't built a strong foundation in male/androgynous-targetted titles. There are exceptions, but the industry doesn't run by exceptions.


With every future game either getting instancing or "everything doable in two hour blocks" (or both), I would assume this has already happened. Nobody seems to be designing for catasses anymore. Catasses find ways to catass anything, so why bother designing for an insignificant demographic that alienates the larger potential markets?

There are plenty of people who know how to market to women, and do so successfully.  There aren't many game developers who think about that problem, and attitude probably has a lot to do with it.  How many times have you heard devs say "we're building a game we'd like to play" - because that's the extent of their market research?

What a stupid ass comment if given in all seriousness.  As a producer of anything (game, clothes, etc) you make product for your customers, not neccessarily you.  Making products for you is making stuff for niche (which may be ok, if that's your goal).  Of course there are problems making games for women - most game devs want in their heart of hearts to make something "cool", which is defined as a 25-35 year oldish male mentality, of someone trying to find his inner 18 year old self again.

And our demographic for gamers is...

...how to target a GAME towards women. I know many companies know how to target towards women, they have the buying power in a house. The man gets his games, or football, or beer, or whatever. But the woman makes all the big purchases.

As for marketing a game towards women, do you have anything original to say or are you just going to make advertising generalizations to me that most children comprehend?

Combine an oprah lovefest hub world with minigames that they already love. Rake in the dough. The hurdle is moving them from the minigame by itself to a larger framework where they can yenta it up with other housewives, providing a better portal than yahoo (or whoever) does now. I would think a lot more housewives and working women would pony up the cash for this kind of thing than the rabid gamer demographic that bitches about $15/mo.

I've been saying that since EQ began developing around the unholy trinity. But, as usual, someone else put it far more eloquently than I'm capable of...

Eh?  I just wrote two paragraphs about game devs, which is more than your one line posts.  Flaming at random today, or just giving me special love?

Now, you have me worried.  He flames me all the time.. and FAST!  Sometimes so quickly, I have to look behind me just to make sure no one is there.  You're not trying to suggest he LOVES me, too... are you?

I'm nervous.

Shutup Signe.

I would expect the catass to dominate both WoW and EQ2, which seem to have endgames all about instanced multigroup raiding.  Perhaps not as extreme as post-Ssra temple EQ catassing, but easily as much catassing as EQ had before then.  Perhaps more.   I would also expect WoW, EQ2, or both to dominate the English-speaking MMOG world for quite some time.

We may just disagree on what catass means.  To me, the guild where everyone powergames 40 hours a week until every possible ability and equipment slot is maxed out for every character is a catass.  Dollars to donuts, at least some of the expansion content will be directed towards these people.

I don't know that I agree though. EQlive is a catasser's nirvana realized, but there are plenty of people that aren't catassers. I knew all 50 of them ;) Seriously though, catassing is easier to see from outside the game than it is from inside partly because, like WoW and EQ2, those players are off in their own little sandbox. Anecdotes of dungeon-owning uber <insert class here> asshat aside, for the most part, non powergamers in one place while the 24/7 dedicated sometimes-eBaying l33t psychos are way off in another. The meet in the economy and sometimes crossing paths in towns.

I don't think a game being catassable makes it just about catasses because by virtue of the lifestyle, all games are catass havens.

I also don't agree that EQ2 is going to dominate anything, much less WoW. This isn't EQ2 vs WoW to me though. It's EQ2 against just about everything. In terms of the "next big thing", WoW definitely has that (to me). It's from an irrationally-beloved company that isn't the reviled Evil Bringer of Vision(tm). How long Blizzard will be able to ride their wave in MMOGs is anyone's guess. But they've garnered a masochistically-rabid following over the last decade and those folks are being dragged into the subscription model. Rather than bringing in that mythical vast group of casual gamers so many claim exists, they're bringing in a new type of addictive-personality powergaming l33ts. Oh the social clashes that will ensue.

It doesn't hurt them that WoW isn't a bad game, but I sometimes wonder if that even matters. Like many wondered whether anything actually needed to be in the SWG box to garner sales early last year, I wonder the same about WoW for the coming one.

Well, there's one fun future whine: "But why do we have to pay for it? Diablo2 was freeeeeee!!11!one"

There seems to be a misconception that women gamers play less than men. You have to realize that a gamer is a gamer regardless of gender. A female Counter Strike player is not that much different than a male one.  In my EQ guild the girls were on as much as the guys. Gamers are gamers regardless of gender. It's just like jocks. female and male athletes are basically the same when it comes to playing on the field/court.

Women aren't going to play games that have been designed for them unless they like the type of game to begin with. Just like a guy isn't going to play a RTS that's designed for guys if he doesn't like RTS games.

Marketing speak is mostly smoke and mirrors. Whats the first question you ask for getting a product known? "How does this product stand out from the crowd?" Market it as being designed for women. You aren't going to actually attract buyers, but you will attract publicity which will get the game known. However if you stamp "Made for Women." On Doom 3, you aren't going to get any woman to buy the game that wouldn't have already.

Mainly because if you stamp "Made for Women" on the box, you aren't really very good at marketing and should go back to business school.

Female gamers will play games as much as men, but there are differences in how games are made and played by women gamers. I realize this is just another Sloth troll whereby you'll start by saying something really fucking stupid like you just did, but let's just cut to the chase.

You are wrong.

Designing a game with women players in mind will produce a different game than one made with no thought to player gender. It just will. The same goes for a marketing message.

Designing a game with X in mind over Y is always going to produce something different than Y. Thats what is called a Truisim. The reality though is that it doesn't matter because no one buys games based on gender. You aren't going to have people buying games based on a sticker that says made for a man or made for a woman.

Now if you want to broaden out beyond gamers and into the realm of non gamers, then clearly more men would be more likely to play Quake than women. But those people aren't gamers and you aren't attracting them based on gender but content. Just like if you took 10 girls and 10 guys and gave them a basketball more guys than girls would want to play basketball despite there being a WNBA.

The problem is you don't really understand games even though you like to talk about them, or rather complain about them. If you did understand you'd know that basketball would be the same sport wether it was made by a woman or a man, or any sport for that matter. Look at the game of Quidditch, it was designed by a woman but works the same as any other game besides being played on flying broomsticks. You telling me that women are more likely to play Quidditch than Basketball? ( and there are Quidditch leagues.) I've seen pictures of people Harry Potter conventions playing Quidditch it is an equal number of guys and girls.

Haemish will probably have things to say about this, but friend, you are barking up the wrong tree.

EDIT: Madness is one step beyond.

This isn't about game design. It's about marketing and sexism. Get it straight :)

You missed the point.  Doesn't matter who makes it, what matters is who it's made for.  Groups of people have different collective (statistical) interests.  Women as a whole have different interests than men as a whole.  Yeah, there women with interest in men's things, and then there are men who are fags, but you're talking statistical abnormalities.  Women are more sociable, men are visually stimulated, etc.  You have age differences to; high school kids have a culture different from that of your statistically average college kid, from your 20 something guy, from your 30-40 something parent, etc.  This is why, for example, you will find that FPS games tend to have younger people playing them than MMOGs do - the things in each of these products appeal to different groups differently.  No, that doesn't mean that you won't find a 70 year old playing Quake 7, but it's unlikely.

Goddamn, you are fucking stupid. I'm starting to reserve a special chamber of hate for you in my cold, black heart.

You missed the fucking point... again. Gamers don't buy games based on gender, they buy games based on what interests them. Where did I ever say that gamers buy things based on gender. Do you even know what the fuck a demographic is, you raging bundle of retard? A person's interests, which statistically speaking ARE related to their gender, determines their statistical buying habits, as well as the manner in which they interface with a game, as well as the reaction they have to a particular set of marketing. It can be quite subtle, but there are entire industries based on these little differences. It can and does affect the color palette you use in the design of marketing, to the packaging, the placement of media buys (you know, what magazines to advertise in, when to advertise on TV or the radio, what programs to advertise on), to the interface of the game, as well as the content. Content is only a small part of game design, and in some cases, it isn't even the most important part.

As for the sticker thing, you are flat out, no doubt about it, wrong. People DO buy different products based on stickers on the front. Let's just throw out some examples that your pea brain can understand.

"NEW AND IMPROVED!" is a big one. An established product can change their product formula, put the "NEW AND IMPROVED" sticker on it, and it will sell better, at least until the "NEW AND IMPROVED" fades into memory. It's a catch phrase that draws attention, and marketing is all about capturing attention. It's all about standing out from the crowd. It's the same concept early ad banners used on the web: put the words "FREE" on the banner somewhere, and you got higher click-thrus. Ergo, people like free shit. Hell, look at most ad banner designs, on somewhere on there you'll see the words "Click Here" or some other form of what we term a "Call to Action" on them. Now, you'll think "No one needs to be told to click on an ad banner, it's redundant." Not the case. Calls to action are made to stir the person into doing something, and they work... until they fade into the normal background of other ad banners. Once that happens, you need something else to draw the eye.




That's nice. But no, the game of basketball is not different because a man or woman is PLAYING IT. But that's irrelevant to what was being said. If the makers of basketball were designing it with women in mind, it would have been a different game. Look at football... that was most certainly NOT designed as a game for women to play. That's not saying they CAN'T play it, but statistically speaking, they won't be attracted to the faux violence. Will some women play football? Sure, but statistically, they are anamolies, a percent of a percent.

When you are talking about marketing, or game design, your first step is to determine the audience. Who do we want to play/buy this game, or be attracted to this design? Men/Women? Young/Middle Age/Old? Your audience is a big determining factor in what you do and how you do it. Watch the trailer for an action movie, then immediately watch a trailer for a romantic comedy. Notice the difference in music between the two. Notice the difference in scene selection. Hell, notice the difference in COLOR PALLETTE or FONT, for that matter. If the marketers are doing their jobs correctly, basing their product on research, you will see both subtle and drastic differences.

See, Sloth, you are talking about individuals, which mean exactly jack and shit to the theory of marketing and design. You want to hit specific demographics, and individuals are unimportant to demographics. Demographics are all about hitting the acceptable ranges of aggregate groups of people who fit specific criteria.

????????

You complain that Haemish doesn't understand games (ludicrous as that statement is), and then you go off on a tangent unrelated to the topic (hint- discussion is about target demographics, NOT developer demographics). Perhaps you should remove your head from your ass before you start making accusations.

In typical hamish fashion you make alot of statements without any examples and foam at the mouth and get worked up like a spaz. New and Improved stickers are related to product quality. Made for Men/Women sticker doesn't have anything to do with quality unless you're under the false assumption that one gender is better than the other. If you tell the consumer product X is better than old product X or product Y than clearly you are appealing to common sense in the consumer. However it doesn't really have anything to do with the topic.

You still don't understand that woman and man demographic is not what is going to sell games the vast majority of your games. Let me put it this way, what is a better way to sell a candy bar? To design some kind of gender based candy bar or to appeal to the people who like chocolate? I'd wager more women than men like chocolate, but you don't need female based marketing to sell chocolate bars to women.

Lets put it another way, would Doom 3 sell more units if it was marketed directly at men? No of course not. How is doom 3 marketed? Its marketed at people who want to be blown away with cuttting edge technology and action gameplay.

This is why I say you don't understand games. You keep assuming that marketing toward genders is the right way to do things. It is the right way to market makeup or jock straps, but its not a useful way to market games.

The other point that completely went over your head is that games like basketball, football, counterstrike, and hearts aren't made for a specific gender. In the former cases they are made for athletes and the latter cases made for table top gamers. Which if you can put 2 and 2 together is what supported my original point that you don't need to market games based on gender. Why do women play in the WNBA and college basketball? Is it because the WNBA and college is marketed toward women? Or is it because they like playing basketball?

heh

I don't think that FPS have more younger people playing them than MMOGs. If there are it is more likely do to Credit Card limitations than content. Women and Men have different interests, but we're talking about Gamers. A female gamer and a male gamer are roughly the same as far as what they like. For instance a CS female gamer and a CS male gamer play roughly the same. And a female hearts player and a male hearts player play roughly the same. Now within each genre one gender might out number the other, but at no point do you need gender specific marketing to attract potential customers.

When I play a new game I never think about if its made for guys or marketed at guys. I'm just as likely to play Sims Hot Date as I am to play Diablo. The gender marketing doesn't even factor into it. The back of the box screenshots or web screenshots of gameplay are 90% of my decision to buy/play a game. Which is about how the majority of gamers make their decisions too. Then you factor in things like price, word of mouth, story overview, and genre.

Making really broad generalizations on large demographics based on yourself makes you look super smart.

go to best buy or compusa and watch how people buy games. The first thing they do is turn the box over or look at the inside cover. If the screenshots are uninteresting they'll put it right down if not they'll read more about it. How many people look at the screenshots first when they hear about a new game? This is not anything new. Screenshots are the #1 way to sell product. I assumed everyone knew that.

Gaming doesn't quite have the 'impulse' sale that other things such as DVD's and CD's or magazines have. Games cost $30-$50 a piece, and often are bought for the investment or for a reason. Sure you look at screenshots, hell even when I've preordered something I look at the box. But when someone is going to buy a game, more often then not their mind is made up before they walk into a store.

As to the gender thing. Bullshit on your traditional economic theory, jackass. I bet fist over hand that the people who theorized and designed the Sims thought about women gamers and women in general. It brought a LOT of females to the game world. Maxis has a lot of bright women working for them.

All this leads up to reasons why you should never work in PR or deal with marketing. You are spouting grossly inappicable theory to the sales of video games. Just stop, now.

So you don't think Dove, See's and Godiva go after the female demographic? But I think you do have a gem of truth in here, "You don't need female based marketing to sell chocolate bars to women." I agree, but without the female based marketing they might grab a snickers instead of a dove bar.



How many units would it sell if it was targeted only at women/preteen girls? Nice pink letters in the Barbie font with huggable bears instead of evil looking monsters? and the guns shoot hearts.

I think you are confusing the target demographics and target advertising demographics. Doom isnt a good example because there is a following from Doom 1 and 2.



If I make a pair of Unisex underwear, then I should target the advertising for everyone except people who don't like unisex underwear (and even then I should have a campaign to convert them). If I make female underwear I should target females... I should know my target audience when I design my product.



Using your WNBA example. Its the design / not the marketing again. You design the game so they are not forced to compete with men who are physically larger so they have a fair game.

You're right there aren't many impulse buys , but gamers still window shop. And screenshots are the primary thing that peak their interest. Plus my statement also includes game previews. Most gamers when they see X game preview they look at the first screenshot before even reading the article. Its the same principle as box flipping. I'm sure everyone here has at one time or another heard "That game sucks look at the graphics."

As for your last part. Sims online was not designed with women in mind, it was designed based off games like Sim City. It was a micro approach to a sim city world. if you go back in the thread you'll see Darniaq explaining it. it was designed with the sandbox gamer in mind.

Holy God, the stupid is out in force today, all wrapped up in the Sloth Avatar.

Where did I say that gender is the ONLY factor in determining game design or marketing? It is ONE of the factors. You are essentially saying that gender matters not one iota in marketing or game design. In other words, talking out of your ass based on an individual, i.e. you. And not a very smart individual at that.

Was Doom designed with a gender in mind? Yes. The male gender. How do I know this? Because Doom was built to be a game that the designers want to play. The designers were men. Was it a conscious decision to design the game for men? No. But I'm sure as they got more successful, they started doing a little market research on the sequels. And strangely enough, their user base is mostly men. So had they decided to change the color scheme to tafita, and turned Doom into a game of "Dress the Space Marine," I'm sure Doom2 wouldn't have sold quite as well.

Know your audience.

If your audience is mostly men, you don't make a game that focuses around activities that are not what men enjoy. If you want your target audience to be women, you won't design avatars that have gigantic boobs and walk around screaming "I am woman, I must be subservient to the men in this game." FPS games HAVE changed design to appeal to some women, such as a small, cosmetic change like adding female avatars for the players. Does it all of a sudden make UT2k4 a predominantly female-oriented game? No, because FPS gamers are traditionally and statistically MALE. Know your fucking audience, fuckstick.

So if you make an FPS game, and you want to advertise it in a magazine, and the game is for PC, which of the following magazines would you advertise in provided budget wasn't an issue?

Redbook
Cosmopolitan
The National Enquirer
Computer Gaming World
Entertainment Weekly
People
Maxim
Playboy
Playgirl

I'm not saying that game developers make very good choices in regards to gender-based design or marketing, for a number of reasons. Most hate the marketing side, or have about as little understanding of actual marketing as Sloth does. The industry is predominantly male, and the stereotype, which has a basis in reality, if of very non-social (and non-dating) males as well. This is changing, but it's about as slow as getting good MMOG's.

We're basically on the same page, but just to clarify my position. The underwear example is basically what I'm saying, female underwear is for females. Like a jock strap is for men. Gender based marketing is a good idea here. With games though, your market is the people who like that style. You don't need to appeal to the inner woman to get women who like sandbox games to play sandbox games. Lets assume you do female based ad campaign, if the woman doesn't want to play the game is she still going to buy it based on the marketing strategy? No, because that type of game doesn't interest her. However yeah you'll get a woman that it does interest, but she'd have bought the game anyway with a gender neutral campaign.
 
As for your last part, I'm not so sure thats the case. I know that the Hoops tournament that goes around the country has men vs women games. No one likes to lose, so by that token I wouldn't want to play basketball against Shaq and kobe because I'd get trounced, i'd prefer to play against my skill level or at least guys who I can at least get the ball from. However I still like playing basketball over all even though I know I can't compete against the Lakers.

I was discussing this with an actual woman (gasp), one of the librarians here, same age as me, very smart girl.

She's not a gamer, but she's heard my supervisor and myself discussing enough games to know a decent spread. She said the shoot-em-up stuff seemed kinda silly to her, she would like something that used more of her intellect.

The game she wants to try out?

Civilization.

I didn't see this at E3, but would have loved to.  

Agreeing some with Hamish.  I think there is a huge market for female gamers, but before it is common place to see tons of women gaming, the attitudes will need to change.  Women shouldn't be forced into playing an avatar with Barbie proportions and dressed in a swimsuit.  That puts off quite a few women.  And before I hear you are not forced to - wtf are the alternatives (not play certain types of games, get asked to cyber everytime you log in, or play as a male avatar).  None really appeal to me, especially when it would be so easy to offer choices (like more clothing options).  For me, offering more options in the games "designed for younger males" doesn't take anything away from the male experience, but really makes it much easier for women to enjoy playing.  When you feel comfortable, you are more likely to buy, play more, and the company will make more money.  

In addition, at least attempt to market to me, not continually show booth babe types on screenshots, on a box, or E3 with no men or anything else that makes me think you had a single female on staff.  Even if companies don't want to do for any other reason, they ought to look at the money they are keeping on the table.  Knowing the audience is key, but MMORPG's are large enough to appeal to both males and females without taking anything away from either experience.  Not every game is going to be for everyone, but most should not be going out of their way to offend, especially when it takes just a few changes to make it female friendly.  Sadly, bringing women gamers into the mix isn't even on the radar of most devs.  However, bonus points go to NCSoft for trying out some new ideas lately - when everyone else in the business seems to be getting conservative, they are showing innovation.

You're not even making a point between your clumsy insults and ranting one liners circa 1999 lumthemad. Once again, games designed by men or women don't unintentionally favor one gender or the other. For some reason you have the shortest attention span. As I said 3 posts back Quidditch was designed by a woman and it is the same basic sports concept as soccer, basketball, and baseball. It doesn't matter that id made a game they wanted to play that doesn't make it "Men only" or "Men biased". That means they made a fun game that anyone who likes blowing up demons will enjoy. Just because more men are likely to play Doom than girls doesn't mean its men biased. Because the demographic is gamers. Gaming girls and gaming guys are going to enjoy Doom in roughly the same way.

You have fallacious perspective that because more men than women like something or vice versa that it is gender biased. Gender Biased would be something specifically designed to exclude one or the other. Jock Straps are gender biased. Doom is not.

Traditionally and statistically more men play video games, thats not a revelation nor does that mean the lower minority women are excluded. I'm not saying that if a woman plays football with 24 other guys the guys themselves won't exclude the girl, but the game itself doesn't do that. You might have 24 jerks, but at the same time you might have 24 racists who exclude the black guy. Its not footballs fault.

There are no females characters in Counterstrike, there never will be, but women play it just the same. Its not about your gender being represented, its about a fun game. You always seem to spaz out claiming I'm putting words in your mouth, but as usual your attention span doesn't see past the last post. This thread is about a game marketed at women. Hence why its the focus of discussion. And you're basically right about one thing, gender marketing barely registers when compared to marketing the quality of the game overall.

You are just NOT getting it.  There would be more women playing if they weren't excluded.  What does exclude them is how it is shown and played, not by the concept of the game.  Take the example of Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball.  How many women do you think play it now?  The reason has to do with what the women are wearing, not that women intrinsicly dislike volleyball games.  Now immagine that the devs added in men in speedos that you could date in the game so that women have the same options as men do in the game.  It then appeals to a much wider audience.   Then women are NOT excluded.

How comfortable would you be with an avatar that only wore a speedo in a MMORPG or even use it as an avatar on a message board?  Besides it not having the appearance of armor, making you the but of jokes, and other comments, how much hell do you think you would get?  What would you think about having to play a female character in every game you played (because they really don't make male characters in them)?   Would you buy that game that offered only the speedo or would you buy another game that offered you more choices?  What if there were NO alternatives and the ONLY option was the speedo or play a female character, sure you might end up playing, but enjoy it more if someone had considered your point of view?  Do you feel somewhat excluded?  Welcome to the world of a female gamer.  Most games offer only an experience as a male or offer a female characters that are secondary roles and dressed so that you have all the 16 yr old boys asking you to cyber.   It is very noticable which games actually have women devs on them or in charge of them.  All women gamers want is a few more of the same choices men already have so that they feel just as comfortable in game as out of game.

DOA beach volley ball is a bad example because no one likes it. Its a boring game. Especially for volleyball. Although graphically its pretty good.

As for your last point you're wrong about the women devs. Many of EQs scantily clad outfits were made by a woman artist. One of the UO2 designers a woman said she liked "feeling sexy" in the skimpy outfits. I hate to break it to you but many guys prefer to play female characters. They don't care that other guys hit on them. If you want to play Diablo characters you have to pick a female to play sorceror or amazon. Or archer in the original. I also point to all the female fashion designers, not to mention the other half are gay men. You rarely see conservative outfits on the runway. Don't fool yourself into thinking its a conspiracy of men to make you feel uncomfortable. Besides which most games now offer both skimpy outfits and conservative outfits. Just look at WoW, you can wear the amazon look or you can wear an undershit underneath.

I certainly don't care about speedos. I played Altered Beast and the guys start out in speedos. One of my favorite movies is Conan and he's got nothing but a fur loin cloth on. Look at Wrestling, tons of oiled up guys in nothing but speedos. Boxing is similar. Swimming has the speedo look. Look at super heroes like Robin the old 60's version, thats a pedophiles dream there. Don't fool yourself into thinking guys are all in 3 piece suits with spats.

(http://archive.gamespy.com/devcorner/january01/carlson/pong.gif)

WEEEEEE.

Look, it is another Sloth vs everyone thread. Charming.


Sloth, when everyone is telling you that you don't get it (in this case, Haemish, who actually has job experience in marketing, and Mi_Tes, who is a FEMALE GAMER), you might want to look around and reevaluate your position. I know it is hard to see with your head firmly in your colon, but might be worth a shot.

Or we could just have another 5 page thread where you tell everyone they are wrong, all evidence and opinion to the contrary.

Just because you feel a need to go with the largest crowd doesn't mean you're right. So far no ones been able to provide any legitimate example to prove their point but I've provided countless examples.

One day you should read up on the biography of Galileo and maybe you'll understand the difference between majority and being right.

Someone really needs to make a GORDON gimmick account for statements like this.

Keep fighting the the good fight, plugging your ears, and throwing all reason right out the window, ohh message board Jesus.

(http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Filibuster.jpg)

Filibuster (http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame57.html)

See, when a motherfucker starts comparing himself indirectly to Galileo as if to "fight da powa o' da establishment!" you just pretty much have to call the thread done.

Sloth, you don't get it. You won't get it. Your brown-colored glasses and rectal disposition have assured me that arguing with you is like arguing with a blind man about the color blue. You lack the faculties to discuss the subject with anything other than subjective guesses.

Or as schild put it, heh.

the irony is you act the same way you accuse me of acting only you add a shot of immaturity doing it. Although from my point of view its actually more entertaining to discuss a topic with someone who gets all in a tither. Sort of like Bill O'Reilly when some "radical lefty" gets under his skin. Now thats good TV.

Didn't we already have this 'games for women' arguement?

Changing the subject,


City of Heroes Task Forces (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=general&Number=613338&Forum=All_Forums&Words=task%20force&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=611350&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=0&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post613338)

I loved DOA Beach Volleyball. Still do. Call me what you will, but I can play that game for hours on end and never get bored. Why? I guess I'm just a pervert who can relax with mindless fun.

As to its appeal for women, well, my best friends wife would play alongside me on that game for hours as well. Mind you, she spent a lot of time shopping and getting swimsuits, but she had a blast playing it. Perhaps she is in the minority, but she's one woman who liked playing DOA Beach Volleyball.

Of course, none of the above really has any bearing on Alter Life, but I felt the need to share this morning. Enjoy!

I recently read a brief interview regarding DnL.  The interviewer states that the majority of those playing mmorpg's are women.  I'm not completely convinced of the accuracy of that claim as he only refers to his sources as 'studies'.  I do wish people would back these things up with links.  He did get a response, though.

I've only found a couple of gender studies that are specific to mmorpgs.  One thing that seems to stand out in all of them is the propensity for women (playing mmorpgs) to be significantly older than the men.  Except for me, that is.  I'm very young, you know.  Really, I am.  Just ask me.


http://articles.filefront.com/9


And I'm cute, too.  Oh yes, I am.  Ever so cute.

The majority of people playing mmorpgs are women? Hahahahaha. Ok. That's funny to me. Not because of these mythical 'women' but because the DnL guy has no game out and doesn't.

Everyone knows the majority of the people playing MMO's are geeks, not men or women.

He might have been confusing it with this (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/000194.php). There are more older women playing than older men but more younger men than younger women. And before anyone jumps all of that, keep in mind it's one guy's research.



As to who games are designed for? Games are designed for people who will buy and play them. This is based on demographics, which yes Sloth, includes gender. Yes some women are just as capable of enjoying Doom, but it was designed by guys for guys because they knew guys would fucking play it. Remember: nothing is designed in a vacuum. ID didn't dream up this shit one day and just decide to do it. The Truism is everything is an evolutionary step beyond every previous thing. ID had years of knowing who liked what because they weren't first.

That is the straight dope, backed up by a multi-billion dollar industry that's had fucking half a century to get it just right. And it's the same in all industries. Baseball can be fun for women but who drives it? Football, the same thing. Fucking cars are so obviously designed for men or women. However, some of this shit is just more obvious to a professional industrial designer than others who might say "I like this, I don't like that, and therefore that must be wrong."

There is no wrong. There is only demographics.

You're gonna need more than a fictional game to break that down. You're thinking too one dimensional. You assume "gamer" is gender neutral (first mistake) and that there is no layers underneath (second).

The majority of people who play ONLINE GAMES are women, but that includes all the free stuff like card games, parlor games, flash games, etc.  At least, I've seen studies that report that.

Not MMOGs.  But it is true that most guild leaders in MMOGs are women.

Bruce

Those online Hearts guilds are brutal.

Prove it.

I call shennanigans.

Well, that explains Hammy's kilt...

Right. I see those studies confused with MMOs all the time. Most MMOs are at most 70/30 male/female, with some being as low as 10% female. The question we must ask ourselves though is that if women are willing to play games online, why are so few playing MMOs? It's not just the genre.

As far as guilds, I think it's more accurate to say that women MMO players are more apt to take a community leader role (such as a guild leader) than men are. So of the female gamers playing MMOs, a higher percentage of them seek out community leader roles than men do. For example, even though UO skewed heavily towards a male audience, over 50% of the applications for Counselors, Seers, and even the Fan Faire Hosts were women.  But males still represent a larger percentage of the total number of guild leaders, simply because they represent a much larger portion of the players.

Sorry, no chart for this one.  All I have is what various devs have told me with regards to their own game.

I guess it's not a big surprise.  Going all the way back to my TinyMUD days, women ran the big social areas  -- The Rec Room, T|D on Islandia, etc.

Bruce

I guess it depends on what you mean by genre.  I don't think it's the case that women as a demographic dislike MM online games with persistant worlds - if anything, MMO lends itself to the socializing qualities that women like.  I do think that, as a whole, MMOGs are geared toward competition, something that women as a whole aren't drawn to.  Again, if we're talking trends, men tend to be compeditive and heirarchal, while women social and cooperative.  

I think it's also important to look at what women seem to want to do with their spare time.  Sims was an obscene success, while TSO was only a marginal success.  Most of the women who I know who were playing Sims seemd to like "playing house" in a grown up way.  They usually didn't play the "game", but spent time designing their house.  Look how many websites are out there that offer up add ons for your house (furniture, etc).  Women who were attracted to that feature could do that totally without TSO - the game competed with itself, and poorly at that, since it lacked user content.



More correctly, I think the generally older female audiance is more apt to take a community leadership role than the generally younger/immature male audiance.  Young boys/men who are more concerned with nudie pics and scoring a omgwtfpwn!!1 are less likely to make wonderful leaders.  With age comes maturity, and the average male MMOG gamer doesn't qualify.

God, this reminds me of the AWFUL "Sudeki" advertisement in the latest Xbox Magazine.  Sudeki is an RPG, a genre that has every chance of appealing to women.  It is a console style with anime inspired graphics.  With the Anime thing skimpy outfits are sort of a given, but their advertisement is of one of the half naked female characters filling the whole page with big lettering at the top:  "Get prepared for a FULL FRONTAL assault!".  I was embarassed to be in the same room as that fucking ad.  Who wrote that?  The developer's 13 year old boy?

That is the type of attitude that drives women away.  And the industry still revels in it almost as much as the porn industry.

Regarding women in MMOG games.

Over 50% of our 100 or so active person SWG guild is female.  Very anecdotal I know, but I find it interesting.  Lots of women playing SWG.

I will admit women enjoy roleplaying more than men it seems in online games, the ones I encountered at least. We had a number of them in my guild on SWG. And as much as I sound like an asshat, they filled the position of dancers, musicians, and image designers. Though, we had a few that were marksmen and creature handlers.

The cantinas in SWG provided the best oppurtunity for roleplaying. I wish more games had places like them. I think if headquarters had been put into CoH at launch I would've remained subbed just to use it as a virtual chat room as it was very nice to my dual monitor setup.

[quote="schild"
The cantinas in SWG provided the best oppurtunity for roleplaying. I wish more games had places like them. I think if headquarters had been put into CoH at launch I would've remained subbed just to use it as a virtual chat room as it was very nice to my dual monitor setup.[/quote]

I agree.  I had some really good times in SWG's cantinas. I wouldn't mind a bit having a place just like that, filled with people just doing the 'social' thing.  Card games, parlor games, tailors, image designers... that sort of thing.  Years ago, The Sierra Network had a service that included game rooms for cards, a very unsophisticated rpg (well, by todays standards), a childrens gaming area, and a casino area named after Leisure Suit Larry.  Unfortunately, Larry World was too adult for me.  It turned into constant requests for phone or cyber sex and completely alienated anyone just looking to play poker or slot machines.  

If THERE had the look and atmosphere of SWG, I would have given it a go.  It has to have the 'look', though.  I NEED to be adorable in a game like that.

I'd take it one step further, most games are designed by a male who would like to play that game. Fifteen programers figure out what can and can't be done with the given budget and time constraints and the resulting game is what happens. This is then targeted at 14-25 year old males who have a subscription to PC gamer and think "The Ved" is the ultimate.

Or

Its a game targeted at a particular audience (See Mary-Kate and Ashley games) which no one cares about producing and usually shows. (I think there are exceptions such as the first Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego).

I think the nail was hit on the head that you seem to think games are just divinely delivered to the stores, and that the programmer's and designer's thoughts and intentions didn't play ANY part in coming up with or shaping the game in any fashion.

One final point, look at the famous women game designers compared to the famous male ones. Better yet, I don't think this would be so bright, because I will end up in a sex change discussion. Needless to say, there are not nearly enough females in positions to create and program games.

A pale shadow of The Reet's Retreat in AO. :-)

There had a majority of women players. There seem to be more women in Second Life than most games. I think Sims Online was a flop simply because it was a bad game, not necessarily because it didn't click the same buttons as Sims, though that didn't help.

I don't think I've ever been in a guild that didn't have a woman as leader.

I think that's causal. The 15 programmers used to be the gamers others tossed shit at. It's not that the 14-25 year old male crowd is targetted because of their discerning taste. It's mostly because what attracts them to a game is so well-known, only those entirely new to the industry even have to ask how to sell them a game.


This is sooo true in not just a few markets. There is nothing more amazing than watching a room full of middle-aged men design something for tween girls (since tweens are a huge ass market of primary purchasers and household purchase drivers, and tween girls have more money than tween boys). There is no connection for these people, no deep-seated understanding of both another age and the other gender. So they'll continue going with the easy path: "what would I play". Which, of course, eventually leads to "what would I have played if I had two more years of development and publishers with the patience of Job?"


It's nice to have an AO fanboi here. I don't think I've ever actually seen one. Rare species to be sure.

<laughs> Actually I'm playing SWG right now. But for going clubbing in a game, AO's just amazing. Mostly due to a very active and dedicated in game radiostation, gridstream productions. Whlie the avatars are pretty primitive, their dance emotes can be strung together pretty creatively as well.

AO's club scene is a perfect example to me of a community forming in a game that really wasn't designed very well with that community in mind. It's one of those organic things that just happened, in spite of all the bugs and fuckupery of the early release. It also goes to show what happens when developers DON'T try to steer a community in a particular way; they tried with the storyline and got bitch-slapped, which I think made them lay off the club scene. American developers would get all in a tizzy thinking about "What if minors are having cyber sex!?!?" or "What if the radio station plays copyrighted music?!"

Yeah, that's not fanboi, that's how it is. And AO didn't need friggin' battle fatigue to foster that community.

Misquote for teh win!

I think not having an American developer has helped foster AO's social community a lot. The small population has helped with a lot with people not abusing the freedom they have.

They actually have been going through Live 365 to be legal for as long as I've listened to GSP. You listen through a standard player though, so Funcom really isn't involved at all other than promoting the station and events.

The best part is your misquote actually proves my point even further. :) AO wasn't, IMO, designed as a big social exercise, but it happened in spite of mind-numbingly EQ-like gameplay. SWG was designed with the cantina population in mind, and all it seems to have fostered was AFK macroing dancers and a great big vaccum sound.