Return of the Book Thread

[dd0029]

Re-read some Lloyd Alexander that I have not read for a very long time.  Westmark,The Kestraland The Beggar Queen.  I would call these historical fantasy.  There's no magic, but its not Kansas.  I didn't notice it when I read these nearly 20 years ago in 8th grade, but these are fairly bleak.  Thinking back on a number of other children's or young adult books I have reread, lots of them are fairly bleak.

Also read The Book of Lost Things by John Connolly.  Its one of those adult fairy tale retelling stories, but good.  It reminded me of Pan's Labyrinth.  The interlude with Snow White and the seven communist dwarves is entertaining.  Particularly the line "If you come across a prince or a young nobleman, in fact if you see anyone who looks desperate enough to marry a big woman for money, you send him to us, right?"

[Sheepherder]

I should probably read Machiavelli's Discourses on Livy again sometime, the formation and expansion of Rome makes for a pretty good read.

[Endie]

I should probably read Machiavelli's Discourses on Livy again sometime, the formation and expansion of Rome makes for a pretty good read.

Why not read Livy himself?  We have about 25 more books than the ten discussed by Machiavelli, and they're fun.

[Sheepherder]

Hmm, I might have to do that.  Or maybe The Secret History of the Mongols if I can find a decent translation: there's just something intriguing about the notion of using prisoners of war to sandbag your way across a moat.

[Rendakor]

I just started reading Robin Hobb's Shaman's Crossing. It's pretty good so far; I really liked the Farseer and Tawny Man trilogies so I was really excited to see she had something else out.

[Reg]

Oh you're smart for not starting this series until they were all done. I read them as they came out and had to wait a year or two between books. I just finished the last of them and it was an excellent series. As good as anything else she's written anyway.

[dd0029]

I enjoyed that Hobb series, but I thought it was quite different from the Farseer/Tawny Man series.  I particularly enjoyed the first book.  The second book was something else.  There were parts to like, but as a whole I thought it was fairly weak.  The final book was better, but not as good as the first and it had perhaps the worst last couple of paragraphs in terms of character destruction I have ever seen.

[Rendakor]

Oh you're smart for not starting this series until they were all done. I read them as they came out and had to wait a year or two between books. I just finished the last of them and it was an excellent series. As good as anything else she's written anyway.

It took me a long time to finally learn to wait until a series is finished. Martin, Jordan, I'm looking at you here.

Gonna avoid dd0029's spoiler, because I'm only about 1/3 of the way through the first book.

[dd0029]

Just reread Treasure Box by Orson Scott Card.  He's really good.  This is one of his few fantastic/lite horror fiction pieces he wrote in the mid to late '90s.  An interesting take on witches. Why'd he have to turn into a wingnut?  You can see the crazy approaching if you look for it here though.  How does one go from Ender's Game to A War of Gifts?

[MahrinSkel]

I really enjoyed the Phoenix Guards and 500 Years After as well. The Three Musketeers style of writing he used was entertaining to me though I suspect some might be annoyed by it.

Count me as one of the annoyed. I absolutely love the Vlad books, but could not finish the Phoenix Guards. The writing style annoyed the Hell out of me and I found I wasn't reading it out of enjoyment, but because I felt I aught to.

I felt the exact same way. I have enjoyed everything else from Brust, but the Phoenix Guards stuff bored me to tears.

It's almost supposed to.  The Dumas-style writing, where at least 500 words have to be expended describing each meal, and another 100 on the outfits worn by every named character (every time they change), and dialogue that circles the point 3 times before actually getting there, is a deliberate affectation, the whole series could be shortened to 1000 pages total just by disposing of those paragraphs (which can literally run for pages of pointless exposition).  For me, once I learned to apply the same skimming techniques I use for technical material (read without processing until you hit a sentence that isn't filler, then restart the internal narrator), it went pretty quick.

But if you actually *read* every word, it's an awful long way between meaningful plot points.

--Dave

[Morat20]

It's almost supposed to.  The Dumas-style writing, where at least 500 words have to be expended describing each meal, and another 100 on the outfits worn by every named character (every time they change), and dialogue that circles the point 3 times before actually getting there, is a deliberate affectation, the whole series could be shortened to 1000 pages total just by disposing of those paragraphs (which can literally run for pages of pointless exposition).  For me, once I learned to apply the same skimming techniques I use for technical material (read without processing until you hit a sentence that isn't filler, then restart the internal narrator), it went pretty quick.

But if you actually *read* every word, it's an awful long way between meaningful plot points.

--Dave

Sounds a bit like Stephenson's Baroque Cycle -- Stephenson's always been wordy, but he decided to fit the writing to the times.

[Reg]

I wonder if Brust was just trying to make a point with those Phoenix Guard books.  Everything else I've read by him is unusually short. I wouldn't be surprised if he was getting constant pressure from fans and editors to write longer novels.

[Johny Cee]

It's almost supposed to.  The Dumas-style writing, where at least 500 words have to be expended describing each meal, and another 100 on the outfits worn by every named character (every time they change), and dialogue that circles the point 3 times before actually getting there, is a deliberate affectation, the whole series could be shortened to 1000 pages total just by disposing of those paragraphs (which can literally run for pages of pointless exposition).  For me, once I learned to apply the same skimming techniques I use for technical material (read without processing until you hit a sentence that isn't filler, then restart the internal narrator), it went pretty quick.

But if you actually *read* every word, it's an awful long way between meaningful plot points.

--Dave

Sounds a bit like Stephenson's Baroque Cycle -- Stephenson's always been wordy, but he decided to fit the writing to the times.

Stephenson isn't half the writer Brust is.  Half the fun is that the narrator (Paarfi) is supposed to be an in-world historical fiction hack writing at the time of the Vlad books in a heavily romanticized style...  In the afterword of one of the books, there is a dialogue between Brust and Paarfi where they get a little snippy with each other. 

Part of the point in the breezy, overwrought language is hinting around the subtext since we don't have an unreliable first person narrator.  When you hit a revelation later on, it can change the interpretation of earlier supposedly filler conversation.  For instance, Tazendra confessing who she has always been in love with changed the way I read much of the earlier books.


I've just reread a few of the Vlad novels, skipping Teckla again.  Teckla is a wonderful book, but I find it too depressing.  Cuts a little too close to home.

[Ard]

Yeah, Teckla is just straight up soul crushing.  You can actually see the exact moment where Brust gets his heart ripped out.   I'm glad he at least mostly got over it for the rest of his books, I hate watching characters get tortured endlessly.

I read Son of a Witch last week.  Next time I get an idea this utterly stupid, one of you guys really needs to just put a bullet in me.  I should have seen the massive fanwank cash in coming a mile away.  It's almost like the book was written by another author entirely.  I haven't wanted to just throw a book like this since high school for being so completely dumb.

[dd0029]

Could not stay away from the Orson Scott Card wingnut, finished a re-read of Enchantment.  Now I remember why this was the last Card book I read.  The wingnut is coming to full bloom in this one.  Lots of inexplicable rightwing anti-intellectualism.   Full of railing about elitist professors focusing on useless subjects coming from a character working on a dissertation about Ukrainian folk lore.  For additional fun, the book actually contains a bibliography.

[dd0029]

Picked up a good one at work today, Already Dead by Charlie Huston.  I'd call it an R rated Dresden Files.  We have our standard noir detective Joe Pitt.  Joe's a vampyre, yes with the annoying y.  I will definitely pick up the later books.

[Johny Cee]

Picked up a good one at work today, Already Dead by Charlie Huston.  I'd call it an R rated Dresden Files.  We have our standard noir detective Joe Pitt.  Joe's a vampyre, yes with the annoying y.  I will definitely pick up the later books.

Huston writes bleak crime novels with asshole protagonists and a bleak noir worldview.  The Joe Pitt books just happen to have vampires.  The Joe Pitt books are good, but his Shotgun Rule and The Mystic Arts of Erasing All Signs of Death are wonderful though non-genre besides the fact that they are slightly absurdist.

[Lt.Dan]

Just started Game of Thrones.  I'm all for making unlikeable villains but really: incest and pedo?  What's up with that?

[Morat20]

Just started Game of Thrones.  I'm all for making unlikeable villains but really: incest and pedo?  What's up with that?

An accurate description of royalty? It's not like it was exactly unknown.

[Arrrgh]

Picked up a good one at work today, Already Dead by Charlie Huston.  I'd call it an R rated Dresden Files.  We have our standard noir detective Joe Pitt.  Joe's a vampyre, yes with the annoying y.  I will definitely pick up the later books.

The series just ended with the 5th book. Every book is strong and the ending doesn't suck.

[Murgos]

The number of times in history that nobility is mentioned to have married 11-13 year old cousins, sisters and cousin-sisters was enough that I didn't even think to question that part of the story.

[Draegan]

So I burned through the first two Culture novels and I liked them a lot.  I'm currently reading Use of Weapons and this book is terrible.  It's so disjointed and doesn't flow.  There is no plot line to follow because you're jumping around the main characters life it's hard to care.

I'm a bit past the half way mark so I'll have to finish it, but Jesus Christ it's grueling.

---

Someone tell me about Sanderson's Mistborn series (brought up in the Red Eagle thread in the MMOG section).

[Sky]

On the second novel of Kevin Anderson's Saga of Seven Suns series. Humanity uses ancient dead civilization tech to turn a gas giant into a small sun so they can colonize the moons. Woops, test run was on the home planet of a hidden empire of gas giant dwellers. Who have nigh invincible tech and probably wiped out the ancient dead civilization. Or did they?

Some good twists, lots of character viewpoints. A bit of mystery, intrigue and archeology.

[HaemishM]

I tried to read a couple of indie author books. One was decent but didn't grab me at all (too Dan Brown for my tastes, except not badly written) and one was so devoid of scientific logic (and it was a sci-fi book) that I couldn't finish it and gave it a bad review on Goodreads. The author got pissy with me about my review even though it was probably one of the nicest negative reviews I've ever written - I didn't even curse.

I've been wanting to finish the William Gibson trilogy that starts with Virtual Light and ends with All Tomorrow's Parties, so I started re-reading Virtual Light. It's been too long since I read it so didn't remember much. I'm about halfway through it and remembering why I love Gibson. I figure the books are short, I'll burn through all 3 before going on to something else.

[Viin]

Someone tell me about Sanderson's Mistborn series (brought up in the Red Eagle thread in the MMOG section).

They are good. I enjoyed them. It's nice to read a well written fantasy series that's a trilogy rather than fiction writing 101 with 15+ books and no ending.

[Ard]

Yeah, Mistborn was a fairly good series.  It has an interesting setting, although it ends a bit predictably.  Felt a lot like Perdido Street Station without the torture porn to me. 

Avoid his other books, other than the Wheel of Time one I haven't read, they're painfully bad.  Elantris is okay if you read it as his first real stab at writing, but falls into Neal Stephenson's territory where he clearly went "oh crap, I have to finish this book" after a few hundred pages of meandering through the story.  Warbreaker is just plain abysmal though.  It felt like it was written by a 12 year old who thought he was being clever.

[Morat20]

So I burned through the first two Culture novels and I liked them a lot.  I'm currently reading Use of Weapons and this book is terrible.  It's so disjointed and doesn't flow.  There is no plot line to follow because you're jumping around the main characters life it's hard to care.

I'm a bit past the half way mark so I'll have to finish it, but Jesus Christ it's grueling.

Use of Weapons is actually one of the best Culture novels. It jumps between two time-lines every chapter, ending up at the beginning of the novel. It was a PITA to get used to, and it was on the second read through that I got comfortable enough with it to really enjoy the book.

Stick with it to the ending.

[Quinton]

Use of Weapons is probably my favorite culture novel.  Love the ending.

[Draegan]

Really?  It's not bad, it's just confusing and disjointed at times.  There doesn't seem to be a story just a bunch of memories.

[MahrinSkel]

Trust us, the ending is worth it.

--Dave

[Johny Cee]

Yeah, Mistborn was a fairly good series.  It has an interesting setting, although it ends a bit predictably.  Felt a lot like Perdido Street Station without the torture porn to me. 

Avoid his other books, other than the Wheel of Time one I haven't read, they're painfully bad.  Elantris is okay if you read it as his first real stab at writing, but falls into Neal Stephenson's territory where he clearly went "oh crap, I have to finish this book" after a few hundred pages of meandering through the story.  Warbreaker is just plain abysmal though.  It felt like it was written by a 12 year old who thought he was being clever.

Tried Elantris, and put it away after 100 pages.  Seemed like mediocre Ren-faire pap.

[Morat20]

Really?  It's not bad, it's just confusing and disjointed at times.  There doesn't seem to be a story just a bunch of memories.

He originally wrote it without the disjointed timeline -- one progressing forward, the other backward -- and it didn't work at all. This does, and yes it IS really confusing in places.

Banks' Culture novels are entirely critiques of Utopia -- nothing really new, as that's pretty much what Utopias are for -- but he focuses on the nerd post-scarcity, secular, materialistic Utopia. And what happens to misfits. And how that Utopia manages to deal with a universe that isn't so nice.

Use of Weapons is about the living weapons the Culture uses -- the Special Circumstances people it recruits and turns into mercenaries for them, and how that works and how it can bite them on the ass, and a bit about how they meddle. Banks explores that theme more in Inversions (which is about two SC agents in a medieval society, and thus the Culture is barely even hinted at) and in Look to Windward which showcases a particular Culture clusterfuck in meddling with another society (bookended, of course, by the last of the Idrian war fallout -- wherein the Culture started the war, via vote, because it appeared inevietable).

The ending is worth struggling through the timeline, and I found that once I had read the entirety of  the book, the format was almost necessary and the disjointed timelines fell into place and the whole story just coalesced.

[Draegan]

This is why I love the Culture books because of the perspective of the Utopian society.  It's just the writing style of this book.  Often the memories don't seem to be of the same person.  I've been reading this one slower than the previous two and it's hard to keep a line on what's going on.  I would of been better off just sitting down and finishing it in a weekend.

[Sheepherder]

Just started Game of Thrones.  I'm all for making unlikeable villains but really: incest and pedo?  What's up with that?

An accurate description of royalty? It's not like it was exactly unknown.

Yes.  This.

Don't ever dig deep into history if Game of Thrones puts you off.

[Margalis]

I have to agree that the depiction of the villains in Game of Thrones was a little hamfisted and overdone. Just in case you didn't dislike these characters enough now we'll depict them fucking each other - gross!

He might as well have named them Cruella Deville and Snidely Wiplash.