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Title: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 02:28:24 AM Without being a TOO negative, I'm just wondering how to do it.
See, there seems to be a problem. 1. I refuse to grind on mobs. 2. I would grind PvP but scenarios don't pop since like 5-10% of the server is in tier 4. 3. There's no open RvR to speak of because, well, see #2. 4. Can't finish public quests really since there's so few people and tier 4 is so big. So I have to wonder, with the leveling curve as steep as it is for 22-31 (I did Tor Anroc a few hundred times), I'm trying to figure out what the design decisions were here. Did MJ and Co really think that many, many people would hit tier 4 at the same time and thus populate the ever-living fuck out of it? Is it one of those, well, eventually most of the server will be tier 4 :oh_i_see: type decisions? Or is it simpler than that - is it just bad design? Right now, I'm flabbergasted by how little the quest rewards were. Near the end of tier 3, I was getting 5k-7k per quest and upwards 11k per quest in Gunbad. Even for fedex missions. In tier 4 it drops back to 4k-5k. Mind BLOWN. As such, obviously no one wants me questing. Also, quest rewards magically suck in tier 4, though the PQ stuff looks decent, but well, see #4. As such, what's the solution here? Cut the experience in half to level, double (triple, or quadruple) quest exp, or something more radical? Maybe allow tier 4 people into tier 3 RvR or Scenarios? I'm at a loss. I still fully plan on seeing it through, I'm just wondering what I'm supposed to do. Right now I suppose I can sit with my thumb up my ass for a few weeks, but it seems.... stupid. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: trias_e on October 06, 2008, 05:07:52 AM If you're going to separate your players into four distinct groups, you need to allow those in higher groups to move down. Otherwise you are going to see these problems. What is happening to those in t4 now is going to be happening to those in t1-t2 in a month. It's terrible design, unless you allow those in higher tiers to move down at will.
The T4 problem is actually the much more short-term of the two. The later T1-T3 problem is even more harmful as well, because no new player in their right mind will ever play WAR past the first week at that point. My solutions are as follows: First, increase the reward for scenarios/open RvR on underpopulated tiers. So if you only have a scenario pop once in a hour, make it give 3 times as much xp as a tier that has a scenario pop once every 5 minutes. Second, double quest xp flat out in tier 3 and tier 4. Third, and this is the big one, you need to allow deleveling. If I'm 32, I should be able to delevel to 28 and play in tier 3 anytime I want, and still gain xp from whatever I'm doing. I honestly can't believe this isn't in a game with the design they have. Big Fail. And this was obvious before the game even came out as well. In fact, this is a total no-brainer for WAR to succeed in the long term, especially considering all those scenarios you enjoyed while leveling just poof into non-existance every new tier you get into, and on open servers you are fucking getting chickened in PvE content which is the most retarded thing I've ever seen. Just WTF Mythic. Maybe they simply thought they'd cross that bridge when they come to it, but that sure as hell doesn't help the T4 folks now. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Phunked on October 06, 2008, 05:11:53 AM I recently hit t3 for the second time (order alt now main).
There is already a content grind: I'm sure I'll be maxed influence with all PQs and quests done in regular zones in all 3 areas by say...27 or so, and thats with queues constantly running for TA. Insert 5 levels of TA grind. Hit t4 and .... :oh_i_see: I realize that they don't want us skipping the content just to run to end game and catass. But when you look at it and understand that there isn't ACTUALLY any content to speak of (hi2u five other scenarios that never pop in t3) . Is it just going to be murderball in a temple then murderball in a volcano then murderball in a [insert here] for the whole end game? Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 05:17:40 AM Ironically, the best sounding Scenario in tier 4 isn't even available. Caledor Woods. Straight up King of the (Literal) Hill death match. One capture point at the top of the hill. Hold it, gain extra points, both sides get 10 per kill. Quests for it are still given out in High Elf Chapter 15. But where's the scenario? Fucking MIA, that's where.
Honestly, I like that they're putting out patches for the fucking WORKING chat system that I don't give a fuck about, but come off it, they need to work on more important things right now. Like a deleveling system and streamlining content (still think they should double or triple all quest exp). Getting to 40 should be a joy and super fast. I don't see the harm in having a game full of tier 4 people. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: amiable on October 06, 2008, 05:28:08 AM Getting to 40 should be a joy and super fast. I don't see the harm in having a game full of tier 4 people. Do you think this may have something to do with developer ego? Maybe they do not like the fact that folks want to skip over the content they worked so hard to develop to get to endgame? I'm glad I'm leveling my healer now, because there is no way in hell I would PvE a healer up to Tier 4. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 05:30:27 AM I don't think it's developer ego so much as just stupid decisions. I still fully plan on taking an alt very slowly from 1-40 reading all the quest text and whatnot, but Tryst is basically, get quest - don't read shit - go to red splotch - finish red splot objective - maximize damage output along the way - get to tier 4.
I haven't decided what my Just Fun alt will be from 1-40, and I may very well wait til they add in other classes. But right now I'm just GROWL SNAP SNARL STOP FUCKING AROUND WITH GOLD SPAMMERS AND DOUBLE MY FUCKING QUEST EXP AND HALF THE REQUIRED EXP. FUCK YOU ELVES, FUCK YOU AND YOUR FETCH QUESTS GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH. God are they lucky the PVP rocks my fucking face off. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Zetor on October 06, 2008, 05:55:49 AM I liked the empire-chaos tier4 scenarios during c-beta, though the "campaign" effectively restricts you to only 1-2 per pairing at all times, so yeah. Praag is a "frontline map" [like cp_granary or cp_well in tf2], and Reikland is a fast-response dynamic capture-and-hold (only 2 nodes are capturable at any time, and they randomly rotate every minute; kills award NO points).
-- Z. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 05:57:39 AM Doesn't really matter since no one is at Tier 4 and Tier 3 is a is the fucking devil!
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: amiable on October 06, 2008, 05:59:03 AM Doesn't really matter since no one is at Tier 4 and Tier 3 is a is the fucking devil! I played Temple of Isha a few times yesterday, it was actually a lot of fun... and I earned more reknown and xp than I did in Tor Anroc (but we absolutely rolled destro, they got like 1000xp each.) Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: trias_e on October 06, 2008, 06:10:36 AM Ooh, I just had a good idea that helps two issues at once. Have each scenario build up an xp bonus based on how long it takes before it pops, perhaps maxing at 3x xp at an hour. Tired of doing Tor Anroc? (I sure as hell am) This will solve your problem. People will be very motivated to spread out over the various scenarios. And those at underpopulated tiers get a perma boost to scenario xp.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: amiable on October 06, 2008, 06:14:30 AM Ooh, I just had a good idea that helps two issues at once. Have each scenario build up an xp bonus based on how long it takes before it pops, perhaps maxing at 3x xp at an hour. Tired of doing Tor Anroc? (I sure as hell am) This will solve your problem. People will be very motivated to spread out over the various scenarios. And those at underpopulated tiers get a perma boost to scenario xp. Mark Jacobs - steal this idea. Please. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 06:18:06 AM I really don't think that's good enough. They need to cut the experience in tier 3 and 4, in half, at a minimum. If they worked so hard on the endgame structure, they wouldn't keep people out of it for so goddamn long.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 06:31:42 AM From the locked thread in the regular WAR forum:
Review Article Here (http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/reviews/41975/Warhammer-Online-Review-21-30) I'm hitting level 30 tonight, and I know some of you are into T4 already. It seems that the issues listed in the review span across both T3 and T4 content. Honestly this has me worried because right now there is no way in hell I'd ever roll an ALT in this game with the leveling system as it currently stands. My biggest game related concerns to date are: 1. Quests, Exp, Rewards Massive exp drop off starting in T3. Quest rewards are way too low, and don't give out enough gear as you advance. Public Quests in the higher tiers are usually done by very small groups, and stage II and III become virtually impossible. The influence needed to gain the rewards is also very high, and contributes to the idea that PQ's are a boring grind. Imagine having to level an ALT in this game without scenario PVP exp rates as the game ages and new players aren't plentiful at lower tiers. I can't, and that's why I'll never roll an ALT unless they make PVE advancement better. 2. Gearing Out and Itemization Renown gear is just terrible starting in T3, and the game forces you into long PQ grinds, PVE questing, or farming something like Mount Gunbad. I'm looking at level 30 PVP gear for accessories with leading stats like +30 Initiative or +30 Ballistic skill and unimpressive resists. The gear just doesn't seem itemized correctly for most classes, and the PVE gear oddly enough does. Talismans are neat, but they can get very expensive on the auction house just for the temporary ones. But the PVP gear is so bad that even Talismans really can't help much. General gearing out via Scenarios, RvR seems slow. I wish they could increase the frequency in which loot drops on player corpses. Elf scenarios drop mostly elf based loot, same with the other races. I wish they would mix it up a little more considering each tier seems to have a favorite PQ and the others get abandoned. When loot does drop its almost always green con stuff, and maybe its just me but tons of healer, engineer, mage junk drops while few tank weapons seem to drop. 3. Knockbacks and Roots vs diminishing returns The more people hit level 30, the more these things seem to be out of control. We were fighting a lot of Zealots over the weekend, and they seemingly have some pulsing knockbacks. The result was that when I wasn't being chain rooted, a single Zealot (or maybe more..its hard to tell) could knock me back 3-5 in a single action. Then there are the never ending roots. You can be chain rooted and they vastly overpower the skills used to mitigate them. I'm an Ironbreaker, so I get rooted and then hit Juggernaut to get out of it. I'll be rooted 5 more times before that skill even recycles. I love the knockbacks and understand the need for roots, but there needs to be some serious consideration for some diminishing returns code or improvement of existing code if there is any. 4. Keep Upkeep 6 Gold per hour and 144 Gold per day for a keep that 6 people can ninja, and benefits that don't appear to be very tangible. I've been on record for a while as hating a siege system with Windows of Opportunity (Woo's) like Shadowbane and Age of Conan had, but I've also hated the fact that DAOC and now Warhammer Keeps change hands so easily. Part of that I think is because the guards in the outer/inner walls are so easy to take out compared to the mobs around the Keep Lord. Bottom line is that it should take a real force, not 6 people, to take a keep, the upkeep should be more like 6 gold per day, and there should be some obvious benefits to owning one. 5. Scenarios and RvR Scenarios that are popular are popular simply because of the exp/renown per hour potential. The other scenarios force you to play the full time and if your team is getting rocked, your rewards are pretty bad. The bauble and king of the hill scenarios are the most popular, so Mythic should consider that before making any adjustments. RVR is picking up, but nowhere near as rewarding as just sticking with scenarios if you want to level via PVP with a decent rate of speed. Mythic did it with DAOC with the RVR Zones, but maybe they should look at clustering scenarios so that you are queuing with a pool from multiple servers. That might help more scenarios pop, and might give a larger pool of players to still level via PVP with as the game ages. Verdict Much like AOC shined in the 1-40 range and lost its luster afterwards, Warhammer starts to smell a little once you move into Tier 3. The way that PVE/PQ's and Gear are currently configured, leveling ALT's when the game is no longer new doesn't look appealing at all. Considering AOC's great launch sales and then catastrophic retention rate it shows that a game has to get its act in gear much sooner than in the past or risk losing lots of people. The lower tiers are fun in WAR,but the real end game is in T4 so Mythic needs to really look at the issues that keep cropping up and figure out how to get people there better while also ensuring that people have the right amount of gear so they aren't insta kills when they show up. We have folks in T4 and we have a T4 keep, but its slow since most of our server is still in T2-T3. Can anyone here give a good T4 overview? Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Numtini on October 06, 2008, 06:43:47 AM Quote Public Quests in the higher tiers are usually done by very small groups, and stage II and III become virtually impossible I've been playing somewhat off hours but I haven't seen anyone doing a PQ in all of T2 on either of my characters. The last couple I did on my RP were grinding out the first wave again and again and again. I don't even bother to look anymore and pretty much figured everyone else had given up as well. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Hawkbit on October 06, 2008, 06:44:52 AM I don't think it's developer ego so much as just stupid decisions. I still fully plan on taking an alt very slowly from 1-40 reading all the quest text and whatnot, but Tryst is basically, get quest - don't read shit - go to red splotch - finish red splot objective - maximize damage output along the way - get to tier 4. I haven't decided what my Just Fun alt will be from 1-40, and I may very well wait til they add in other classes. But right now I'm just GROWL SNAP SNARL STOP FUCKING AROUND WITH GOLD SPAMMERS AND DOUBLE MY FUCKING QUEST EXP AND HALF THE REQUIRED EXP. FUCK YOU ELVES, FUCK YOU AND YOUR FETCH QUESTS GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH. God are they lucky the PVP rocks my fucking face off. This. Beta/PW gave me the impression that I'd roll a main and get it to 40 asap so that I can participate in guild stuff whenever I'm needed or whenever I want to play. I assumed that the real game was going to start in the T4 bracket at 30. So I rolled this toon and didn't give a shit about quests or anything... I'll do that on an alt one day. What I'm seeing, though, is that our guild is split with a few of the more 'hardcore' players in T4 and a shit-ton of others stuck in the 20s. Look at the sheer amount of people in Bat Country stuck between 20-25. I know I feel stuck at 22... and I was at 20 ten days ago. Now I'm segregated from a fair portion of the other people I was playing with and I'm finding less and less desire to log in to GRIND it out to T4. T3 has been the only part of this game that is a deal-breaker for me. Fuck an alt, I don't even want to grind through it on my main. I would propose: Immediately reduce XP needed to level for all of T3 by 1/2 to 2/3 of the numbers where it is now. If they absolutely feel the need to make us grind, let us do it all together in T4. At least then we can all play together. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 06:46:11 AM Well, in all of my rambling, of which there's more, much more, I still fully admit that I killed t3 in uhhh 2 days.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: trias_e on October 06, 2008, 06:49:24 AM Quote I really don't think that's good enough. They need to cut the experience in tier 3 and 4, in half, at a minimum. If they worked so hard on the endgame structure, they wouldn't keep people out of it for so goddamn long. I don't think they should simply cut the xp needed to level in half. Regardless, whether they need to or don't need to, it's an unrealistic request. At least, not for months when people are complaining about alt leveling speed. Double quest XP, make it easier to find PQ groups across zones (perhaps allow the open group window to go across zones), increase scenario xp when they don't pop as often...I don't think you can ask for much more than that at this point. Other than deleveling. Which they refuse to do. Quote I've been playing somewhat off hours but I haven't seen anyone doing a PQ in all of T2 on either of my characters. The last couple I did on my RP were grinding out the first wave again and again and again. I don't even bother to look anymore and pretty much figured everyone else had given up as well. Can't say I didn't see this one coming. The only solution to this problem that I can see is scaling PQs to amount of players. Making them soloable is a decent idea, although in t3 you have to kill like 200 mobs just to get to stage 2, so it's not soloable just out of soul-crushing boredom. You have to wonder if Mythic simply has no foresight whatsoever beyond the immediate. They did realize that having all of these problems become more and more prevalent when WoW gets closer and closer to releasing WoTLK was a bad idea, right? They certainly saw these problems coming...I hope. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Hawkbit on October 06, 2008, 06:54:26 AM Doubling quest XP in T3 won't make a lick of difference. Maybe if it were 4-5X, maybe.
It is essential for subscription retention that they get as many people as possible into T4 playing together by November 13th. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Nebu on October 06, 2008, 06:57:01 AM It is essential for subscription retention that they get as many people as possible into T4 playing together by November 13th. Excellent point. I think that they would be well served to make getting to 40 easy for a cohesive group of 6 people. It encourages participation in the endgame, it encourages rerolls (less pain along the way means having more alts to play in the endgame), and it encourages retention. WAR should be about the endgame. The way to the endgame becomes meaningless after the sales pitch which is the newbie experience. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: trias_e on October 06, 2008, 07:11:04 AM Quote Doubling quest XP in T3 won't make a lick of difference. Maybe if it were 4-5X, maybe. That's a bit extreme. If you go to 4x xp, no one would ever run scenarios until they ran out of quests, which they probably wouldn't at 4x xp. I guess if you want to boost scenario xp as well, that's fine. I do agree that they need to get people through T3 faster, certainly. But, I think the problem is that their end game isn't polished enough to have mass amounts of players in T4. I doubt they nerfed xp before release just for shits and giggles. And again this comes back to some serious :ye_gods: potential in November. If the people in T4 are all involved in buggy unfinished end game, and the people in T3 are in a crappy grind with not enough population to get consistent scenario pops...that's just double :ye_gods: Randomly: Why is this thread in the Bat Country forum instead of the general WAR forum? Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Nija on October 06, 2008, 07:11:20 AM In a way I'm happy that I'm on an Open RVR server because this problem doesn't exist there.
However, another problem does exist. Destruction has a few entire GUILDS that contain level 40 people. They begin crushing your nutsack around level 25. They don't stop until you're 40. See, what really stings with this is that every single one of the people that are 40, and have been for a week or more, got there by AE grinding PQs and getting the +20% killing streak bonus. They disabled that shit AFTER all these guys already did it, so we're stuck leveling at a glacial pace while getting fOWNED in scenarios the entire time. So these fuck sticks have all the super good PQ rewards, they have their level 40 skills, and they have nothing better to do but stick 1-2 people in each Order PQ just to fuck it up for you. Oh and they'll be attacking our city soon, to add insult to injury. Edit: and this is my 4th fucking character. My small guild went destruction on a random server and destruction happened to outnumber order 4:1 after a week. So I got a guy to T3, another to 15ish then moved to the order side on the Praag server. I made a White Lion, got to level 13, then realized that our only healer plays super odd hours. So here I am as a level 18 Archmage... Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: waylander on October 06, 2008, 07:22:38 AM In a way I'm happy that I'm on an Open RVR server because this problem doesn't exist there. However, another problem does exist. Destruction has a few entire GUILDS that contain level 40 people. They begin crushing your nutsack around level 25. They don't stop until you're 40. See, what really stings with this is that every single one of the people that are 40, and have been for a week or more, got there by AE grinding PQs and getting the +20% killing streak bonus. They disabled that shit AFTER all these guys already did it, so we're stuck leveling at a glacial pace while getting fOWNED in scenarios the entire time. So these fuck sticks have all the super good PQ rewards, they have their level 40 skills, and they have nothing better to do but stick 1-2 people in each Order PQ just to fuck it up for you. Oh and they'll be attacking our city soon, to add insult to injury. That's why guilds like LotD, Darkhand, Sinister, etc all rolled on the Core Ruleset. We all trend towards open PVP environments, but Warhammer was designed with the Core Set in mind. Open PVP servers always suffer the same fate. They start off good until the uber PL's max out in levels and gear, then those same people camp and PK lower levels who have 0 chance to fight back, the server population dwindles as people get fed up, and eventually the place is a ghost town. Personally I'm tired of investing a lot of time into character development just to see a server turn into a ghost town in under 6 months. Have fun, but the Core Ruleset is much better if you want to stay on a server that can maintain a healthy population over time. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 06, 2008, 07:49:15 AM I complain a lot about warhammer, so take it with a grain of salt but I simply can't log in for more than an hour or so. I'm 23 1/2 now and this grind is fucking killing me. Here's the thing, I'm not sure levelling in warhammer is even slower than wow and it's probably not. I remember it took me ten days /played to get my rogue to 60 on original wow.
What IS different though to me, is variety. First there's 20 less levels in warhammer so while hitting cap may be the same it 'feel's slower. Secondly variety in what you're doing. A level one greenskin is killing dwarfs, a level 10 greenskin is killing dwarfs, a level 20 greenskin is killing dwarfs ad infinitum. Oh sure the scenery changes a bit but there's this intangible blah feeling about it all. But lakov, pve sucks, this game is about pvp! You're right and pvp is indeed where the fun is at but rvr is non-existant save for quick zergs and not very rewarding for time spent. There's also sport pvp scenarios but guess what, only one of the ever pops with any regularity. Do you like tor anroc? i SURE hope so, since you'll be running it a few hundred times! All in all warhammer just feels like a chore to me, from day one people keep exposing the virtues of the pvp endgame but while it may be a little piece of ambrosia, I don't feel like wading through shit to get there. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 07:55:12 AM Once again, need I remind you, I took one weekend out of my life, gave it to Warhammer and went from 23 - 32 doing nothing but one scenario. Get in your own group if you're DPS and burn the shit out of that place. Now, you said you're a chosen in another thread.
Protip: Knock someone in the lava after hitting them a couple times and if they die in the lava, you'll get full exp from the kill. I was racking up between 15 and 25k on the board regularly while in all getting 30-50k from just killing exp (no, the scoreboard does not measure it correctly). Edit: Yes, you are right about running Tor Anroc 300 times. Or whatever. But honestly, I'm pretty fucking (read: really fucking) good at PVP now. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Righ on October 06, 2008, 08:10:05 AM Fuck an alt, I don't even want to grind through it on my main. See, that promotes the opposite reaction for me. Yay alts. For as long as there are other low level people around, I'll be happily leveling every class to 22. Isn't that the endgame? Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Nebu on October 06, 2008, 08:24:11 AM When I get bored, I just play an alt in Nordenwatch. I think the whole game should be as fun as that scenario is for me. Even with a level 1 toon, I can go in there and blow stuff up. It's when you start adding in all the min/max and the absurd cc/skill tree abilities in the later tiers that the game starts become more about spreadsheets and gear than fun.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: tazelbain on October 06, 2008, 08:27:24 AM I don't have a problem with tier 3 but I am not focused on leveling. My main disappointment is a lack t3 tanks to scenario with.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 08:29:17 AM This is Tier 3. (http://www.getdropbox.com/gallery/39720/2/scenario%20scoreboards/tor%20anroc?h=14da72) If you don't want this for 1/4 of your class levels, don't play WAR.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: kildorn on October 06, 2008, 08:35:53 AM I did T3 via mostly quest, since tor anroc without knockbacks is fucking annoying and stupid.
Sadly I'm into T4 content at 29 now, woo. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Nebu on October 06, 2008, 08:36:02 AM This is Tier 3. (http://www.getdropbox.com/gallery/39720/2/scenario%20scoreboards/tor%20anroc?h=14da72) If you don't want this for 1/4 of your class levels, don't play WAR. Leveling should be a byproduct of having fun. If the pvp scenarios are fun to play, then I don't care about my level and will log on to play them. It's when the game reminds me that I need to be of a certain level or have certain gear/spec to have fun that it goes sour. Yes... I know this is an MMO and I should know better. Hope is a tough thing to give up. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: trias_e on October 06, 2008, 08:41:11 AM Quote This is Tier 3. If you don't want this for 1/4 of your class levels, don't play WAR. I totally disagree with you schild. But I'm one of those idiots who play other scenarios for fun, do open rvr/pqs/gunbad for fun not loot, and just do whatever the hell I want without caring what level I am (well, except for power discrepancy in PvP, but thats not so bad at 25) Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 08:43:30 AM I queued for everything available all the time. Whatever popped first, I played.
That was Tor Anroc, over and over and over. And I did gunbad twice for fun and loot and did RvR for fun, hell the first time I led us to take keeps, where we took 4 of them, it was just because someone said they wanted to go shopping for renown gear before the city dinged for Sigmar's Hammer. But none of that compares to getting 20-30k in Tor Anroc in terms of leveling. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: trias_e on October 06, 2008, 08:47:14 AM I actually queue just for temple/dam/cemetary/crater specifically not so I avoid TA so much as so I have time inbetween scenarios to do quests and grind influence. I'm weird, I know.
(of course out of those, it's dam 80% of the time, crater 10%, temple 10%...so it's still not that diverse of an experience unfortunately.) Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 08:49:52 AM To argue Tor Anroc, that scenario makes you really aware of your surroundings and who is alive, who is dead and who is running back. And how to track, flank, and organize yourselves. It separates the men from the elves, so to speak.
The cemetery and dam are just a mess. Isha was...god, a nightmare. And I never got to play Crater, much to my dismay. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: trias_e on October 06, 2008, 08:52:51 AM I don't think TA is a bad scenario, (certainly doesn't hurt that I get a knockback :grin: )but I don't think it's better than any of the others (except for basin which is terrible).
YMMV. Rather, YMHasV. Isha supposedly has the best XP/hour. I haven't played it enough to know for sure. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: insouciant on October 06, 2008, 09:26:58 AM Include me with the calls for a drastic change of xp awards. But I have never seen a game where such calls have been heeded, no matter how obvious (CoH anyone?).
On a tangential issue, I wonder if WoW has changed the experience of developers regarding retention. Four years ago, even if a game had problems you stuck with it since: 1. you had few, if any, real alternatives, 2. You were inured to the grind by prior experience (EQ or similar), or 3. Most people did not hop from game to game, returning to old toons. In these modern times, where everyone and their aunt has one or more max-level WoW toons, that are there waiting for you even if you no longer subscribe, I am of the opinion that the customer who you could have had for six, or at least three months in the past, is now there only for 30 or 60 days if they are even the least bit dissatisfied. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Nebu on October 06, 2008, 09:39:36 AM What people may be missing is that Mythic games rely on a cohesive group for success. If you play with the same 6 people every night the game is a vastly different experience than playing with random people (even if from within the same guild). Tactics and rapid communication can turn a frustrating evening into an exhilirating one.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Morfiend on October 06, 2008, 10:26:51 AM Once again, need I remind you, I took one weekend out of my life, gave it to Warhammer and went from 23 - 32 doing nothing but one scenario. To be fair, you basically exploited a design flaw that allows DPS classes to get massive amounts of EXP. I spent a huge chunk of my weekend winning Tor Anroc, and AE grinding PQs, and I managed to go from 21 to 24.5, basing your leveling time on what you did is unrealistic for most people. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: rk47 on October 06, 2008, 11:44:16 AM yeah axe tagging ftw according to schild for my chosen would work in TA seperate party Roflles
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Arthur_Parker on October 06, 2008, 12:02:15 PM My major concern with WAR has shifted, it used to be player population in general but now it's specifically with Tor Anroc, everyone is doing it. The obvious reason for it being so popular is that the players believe that it gives the best exp/realm points per minute played (they might even be right).
I don't believe Mythic intended for one scenario at each tier to the be the most popular by a very wide margin, it snowballs until it affects the other scenarios, eventually it harms PQ's & open RVR. So you'd think to yourself no problem, they will boost the exp for questing, open RVR & other scenarios. But will they? On past experience from other games the more likely outcome is an incoming nerf to Tor Anroc. Now, I'm left wondering about the gold situation. I like the fact that gold is plentiful, but if they are so clueless about Tor Anroc, does that mean the current economic system is a total accident? If so, can we also expect them to start introducing pointless gold sinks? Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Nebu on October 06, 2008, 12:34:11 PM Seems that there should be easy ways to normalize xp/rp gains among scenarios just by data mining outcomes from the first 2 weeks of live play. This would go a long way toward ensuring populations in the among the scenarios.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: tazelbain on October 06, 2008, 12:43:37 PM Scenarios are great.
They could be even better. Scaling in t1 and t2 needs to been looked at. Exp/RP rewards need to be normalized across a tier. Soloists need to be neutered. Winning needs to be more rewarding in t3 Most of the maps another pass for fun factor and balance. Some need better explanation as to what is going on. There needs to be an epic quest to do all the scenerios in a tier. There needs to be tome unlocks for playing a bunch of scenarios. Dogs of War as pets to help balance the numbers. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: kildorn on October 06, 2008, 01:14:15 PM Dogs of War as pets to help balance the numbers. Man, have you SEEN pet AI? :ye_gods: Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: tazelbain on October 06, 2008, 01:23:28 PM Ya, bad pet AI rob WL of part of their dps because having a pet is factored into their class balance. A DoW pet would be additional help when someone disconnects or diclines the queue. It doesn't need to work 100% to help out.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Fordel on October 06, 2008, 02:53:00 PM Mythic making their game unnecessarily grindy for no good reason?
:awesome_for_real: Sjofn said it best the other day, 'Mythic is some sort of idiot savant'. They manage to do things no one else can seemingly get right, but then cock it all up with their own stupidity. IE: Design a compelling RvR end game, but ensure it's as annoying as possible to actually reach said end game! It's DaoC all over again. :uhrr: Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Goreschach on October 06, 2008, 03:41:43 PM Sjofn said it best the other day, 'Mythic is some sort of idiot savant'. No, they're pretty much just an idiot. I'm having fun in WAR, but I've had fun in a lot of mmo's for a brief period. But at this point I fully expect this game to go the same way of AOC. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Rasix on October 06, 2008, 04:04:42 PM But at this point I fully expect this game to go the same way of AOC. Possibly, I'm the token lowbie again like in AOC. Again, I'm the guy that can't decide on a class due to conflicting desires of playing some sort of DPS (finger wave or fight with tools?), playing a needed class, and trying something outside my comfort zone. And again, my fairly decent machine is having mixed results, but with a less impressive graphics engine. However, I'm having fun. When I stop having fun, I'll stop playing. Kinda like AOC, which I had fun in also. :oh_i_see: One major exception is that I'm pvping in a game, at the scenario level alone, which feels leaps and bounds better than WoW with a reward system that isn't a complete goddamn joke like WoW's is. That could prolong me going back to consoles and single player games exclusively a bit longer than normal. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Sjofn on October 06, 2008, 04:44:42 PM Sjofn said it best the other day, 'Mythic is some sort of idiot savant'. No, they're pretty much just an idiot. I'm having fun in WAR, but I've had fun in a lot of mmo's for a brief period. But at this point I fully expect this game to go the same way of AOC. Well, there are a few things I think Mythic does better than anyone else. For WHATEVER REASON, I love their PvP. Love, love, love. Any other game with PvP in it gets a giant "meh" from me, but DAoC and WAR both turn me into some sort of PvP bitch. The problem is they're completely moronic about other shit. Simple shit other games figured out long ago. And I really don't get why this is. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 06, 2008, 04:46:20 PM yeah axe tagging ftw according to schild for my chosen would work in TA seperate party Roflles Would work if you chucked someone in the lava ^_^ Just gotta hit them once and hope no one else does. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: UnSub on October 06, 2008, 07:34:46 PM Include me with the calls for a drastic change of xp awards. But I have never seen a game where such calls have been heeded, no matter how obvious (CoH anyone?). CoH/V did change the xp awards needed to lvl to make lvling easier. Admittedly WAR might be waiting until they have a few months of data to work out if xp rates need to be increased, but it does seem odd that so much focus is on a PvP game that you have PvE constantly to get through. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Falwell on October 06, 2008, 08:29:48 PM Doomfist Crater is probably the most enjoyable scenario for me in T3 and I WISH it would pop more often. The biggest drawback to it is that it's a long game. Not quite Phoenix Gate to the timer long, but close.
EDIT: And on the Tor Arnoc issue, yeah it's a problem. We were discussing this topic last night in vent and one guy suggested giving a fairly substantial XP / renown bonus for "running the circuit." Playing in every scenario in the tier and then turning in a quest for a nice bump. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Arinon on October 06, 2008, 09:15:29 PM Tor Arnoc is a shithole generally. I’d rather wait 10 minutes for any of the other ones to pop then risk going in there. It’s entirely governed by the number and intelligence of knockback-enabled people. I’m happy to pay 10 seconds or 1-1.5k HP for getting punted but it might as well be an insta-gib most of the time. Tone down the lava damage or the snare already.
There seems to have been a lot of wasted design time spent in the T2 and T3 brackets (haven't seen T4 yet) in an effort to make them much broader then they needed to be. T1 is great and gives people a taste but is anyone gonna be using the world PvP areas outside T4 like at all? Seems to me you go out there once, see what it is, then buckle down with the instanced PvP until end game. It's more fun, and its more productive. I'm hoping the T4 scenarios don't suffer as much polarization as the other tiers but I doubt it. Who knows, maybe there is a CTF that doesn't have a huge map and always ends in a low scoring overtime. Also agree with everyone else about deleveling but that would probably just end up having the whole population queued for 2-3 and ignoring then rest. What about a random queue option that applies a modifier to renown gain? Hell with that and proper deleveling you could keep the newbie queues short enough to keep them hooked in 3 months from now when the PQs are ghost towns. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Hawkbit on October 06, 2008, 09:30:30 PM I spent hours today grinding TA, got from 22.5 to 23.5.
I have a strong suspicion that I'm not going to make it to T4. The grind is simply not fun. I want to bitch more, but my brain is burnt from the same fucking scenario over and over. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: FatuousTwat on October 06, 2008, 10:15:12 PM This is pretty much why I quit playing Cbeta towards the end.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: tazelbain on October 07, 2008, 06:47:09 AM Dammit people, it's like you are deliberately trying to burn yourselves out.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 07, 2008, 06:49:20 AM Dammit people, it like you are deliberately trying burn yourselves out. Thats what i'm reading. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 07, 2008, 07:17:22 AM Dammit people, it's like you are deliberately trying burn yourselves out. I'm not ^_^ Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: amiable on October 07, 2008, 07:43:20 AM If TA is burning you out, stop playing TA, the other scenarios do pop, just not as frequently. Quest in between. You won't earn as much XP as you would chaining TA, but you will still advance at relatively decent clip (proportionally).
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: rattran on October 07, 2008, 08:55:17 AM I ONLY play TA when I get in the guild group. Otherwise I quest, do some open field pvp, and queue for Doomfist Crater. Nice small 'capture the flag and kill people' map, with 3 +25% damage balls for whoever doesn't hold the flag. It tends to take longer than TA (except for blowouts) but not as long as the other scenarios. And racks up huge points for both sides. 4k renown and 20k xp for 12 minutes once an hour seems good to me. It barely popped at all yesterday though.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Venkman on October 07, 2008, 11:58:06 AM First, increase the reward for scenarios/open RvR on underpopulated tiers. So if you only have a scenario pop once in a hour, make it give 3 times as much xp as a tier that has a scenario pop once every 5 minutes. Second, double quest xp flat out in tier 3 and tier 4. Third, and this is the big one, you need to allow deleveling. All good ideas. Beta testers were asking for variants on this since last year though, because even back then we saw the writing on the wall. Two things were never really solved:
Hawkbits idea of zone-wide variable XP is also great, but I don't really know if the system can absorb that. It seems much more static statistics driven than based on dynamic formulae. This isn't to toot the horn of people who were around for a year. Rather, it's to highlight the obvious disagreement Mythic continues to have with these assertions. They just don't seem to agree with what people have noticed in this regard. Or they do but think everything's fine. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: trias_e on October 07, 2008, 01:17:34 PM Well, if DAOC is any indication, they'll admit their mistakes and incorporate some of these solutions into the game....3 years from now.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Nija on October 07, 2008, 02:12:33 PM There was, afaik, never a period of time during which the servers were up long enough for people to be able to test going from 1-40. Oh, there sure was. I got to 34 during one of those times. As a class that doesn't currently exist in the game. Maybe I was just 100% wrong from the get-go, but I always thought the max level was going to be 50, and that by capping us at 40 they were hiding the end game content. One thing that has existed since there was a single digit number of players on the beta server is the destruction population imbalance. There were dozens of threads talking about it and brainstorming how to get more people playing Order. I guess nothing ever became of it. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Nebu on October 07, 2008, 02:25:08 PM One thing that has existed since there was a single digit number of players on the beta server is the destruction population imbalance. There were dozens of threads talking about it and brainstorming how to get more people playing Order. I guess nothing ever became of it. Art revamp would do it. If the order classes looked half as interesting as the destruction classes, problem would be solved. Zealot, sorc, squig herder, black orc, etc all look better. Warrior priest is the only decent looking toon on the order side. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Goreschach on October 07, 2008, 02:29:25 PM Art revamp would do it. If the order classes looked half as interesting as the destruction classes, problem would be solved. Zealot, sorc, squig herder, black orc, etc all look better. Warrior priest is the only decent looking toon on the order side. You seem to have confused Witch Hunter and Warrior Priest. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 07, 2008, 02:39:20 PM He must've. Warrior Priest is like the most uninteresting class I've ever seen in an MMOG.
Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: Morfiend on October 07, 2008, 02:55:34 PM He must've. Warrior Priest is like the most uninteresting class I've ever seen in an MMOG. You are so wrong, again. Like John, WP are fantastic. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: schild on October 07, 2008, 03:37:28 PM I forgot the word "looking." They are the most uninteresting LOOKING class.
John still sucked. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: rk47 on October 07, 2008, 04:31:50 PM One thing that has existed since there was a single digit number of players on the beta server is the destruction population imbalance. There were dozens of threads talking about it and brainstorming how to get more people playing Order. I guess nothing ever became of it. Art revamp would do it. If the order classes looked half as interesting as the destruction classes, problem would be solved. Zealot, sorc, squig herder, black orc, etc all look better. Warrior priest is the only decent looking toon on the order side. Y'know being on the Destro side for a week gave me new insight on how Order classes are actually better, but given worse presentation compared to the Destruction counterparts. Let's look at the comparison shall we? Bright Wizards - Sorcerers : overall BW pulls ahead with single target damage vs sorceror's aoe. I'm kinda mixed, but in my opinion BW, snap-dots + aoes are nastier. Engineers - Magus : No contest. Magus sucks dick. It has cool presentation but piss poor implementation. Their demons are pathetic and did jackshit. Their spells not doing enough damage to justify their 'ranged dps' tag. Let me give a clear example: Having of their 4 dots being outdamaged by one Bright Wizard detonate of the same level is enough evidence of its suckage. Order vs Destruction tanks: Nothing comes close to ironbreaker amazing CC & Burst Grudge dps. Nothing. Couple to the fact that Swordmasters get aoe knockbacks that is usable every 10 sec, that is quite a mean thing to encounter at T3 Tor Anroc. Too bad people can't look past the 'a fuckin midget, it sucks' or 'a dress wearing tank, it sucks' to roll one. Who could blame them? Chosen & Black Orcs looks much better. Chosen aura stack mechanics may give Destro the edge in grp buffs & debuffs, but having Ironbreakers with full grudge with 2hander handing out knockbacks and 75% armour reduction attacks is something that can't be ignored. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: HaemishM on October 08, 2008, 09:44:26 AM If TA is burning you out, stop playing TA, the other scenarios do pop, just not as frequently. Quest in between. You won't earn as much XP as you would chaining TA, but you will still advance at relatively decent clip (proportionally). That's what I've started doing in T2. Mourkain Temple is really a shitty scenario. Laggy as fuck, and most often degenerates into 1 or 3 fights. Either you are fed through the meat grinder of the chokepoint right around the temple's entrance, or one side gets the murderball and pulls everyone back towards their respective spawn areas. Phoenix Gate is MUCH more interesting to me, and it seems to be more lucrative as well. Less chokepoints, more strategy, and I don't even care if no one gets to 500 for a win before the timer is up. Stone Troll Crossing is decent as well, taking that murderball concept and giving it more strategy than just "Go kill the other guy." But everyone loves that fucking Temple. If I'm solo, I don't even bother queuing up for MT. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: tazelbain on October 08, 2008, 09:50:29 AM People like MT and TA because they are the most farmable. Other scenarios make you run around a lot. You get no xp from running.
We should play Doomfist more. It's focused and isn't biased against order like TA. Title: Re: Level 32 to 40 Post by: amiable on October 08, 2008, 10:25:23 AM People like MT and TA because they are the most farmable. Other scenarios make you run around a lot. You get no xp from running. We should play Doomfist more. It's focused and isn't biased against order like TA. Kirth, Rattran, Sianne and myself put a hurting on Doomfist last night. Sadly it only popped for us once, but the nice thing about it is that the action is pretty non-stop. |