Marvel Universe (Thar be spoilers ahead.)

[Johny Cee]

Yeah, that's my expectation.  Anyone that thinks this will get any more cerebral than, say, Sorcerers Apprentice is really fooling themselves.

Yep, exactly what I expect to be disappointed by.  Also why I've just stopped going to MCU movies at theaters beyond the first in the series. I can catch "captain beat-em-up-this-time-its-serious pt2" on DVD or HBO for cheaper than taking the family out.

Most of the MCU is basically "well done actiony/scifi movie" which is fine, and I never ran out and saw each movie in the theater.  You guys are undervaluing the good stuff that even a by-the-numbers MCU movie does:  consistent tone and backstory/world development.  Think of how most film franchises go way off the rails by the third installment.  The MCU has largely held a quality line through however many movies they've shit out.

We have been spoiled a bit in that each new release isn't up to par with the best films they've put out (Iron Man, Winter Soldier, insert whichever one you particularly liked), but even weaker movies are solid 3 or 3.5 star big budget movies.

[Ironwood]

I think I've been misunderstood here :  I liked Sorcerers Apprentice.  It's actually one of the few Nic Cage films I can stomach.

My point was more "Stop wishing for Highbrow Art in Strange.  You Won't Get It."

[Merusk]

Yeah, that's my expectation.  Anyone that thinks this will get any more cerebral than, say, Sorcerers Apprentice is really fooling themselves.

Yep, exactly what I expect to be disappointed by.  Also why I've just stopped going to MCU movies at theaters beyond the first in the series. I can catch "captain beat-em-up-this-time-its-serious pt2" on DVD or HBO for cheaper than taking the family out.

Most of the MCU is basically "well done actiony/scifi movie" which is fine, and I never ran out and saw each movie in the theater.  You guys are undervaluing the good stuff that even a by-the-numbers MCU movie does:  consistent tone and backstory/world development.  Think of how most film franchises go way off the rails by the third installment.  The MCU has largely held a quality line through however many movies they've shit out.

We have been spoiled a bit in that each new release isn't up to par with the best films they've put out (Iron Man, Winter Soldier, insert whichever one you particularly liked), but even weaker movies are solid 3 or 3.5 star big budget movies.

Didn't mean to imply that they weren't good movies. I just have no desire to see the same story and structure with the same characters again and again in a theater at $40-$70 each night out. It doesn't matter how consistently well-done they are, I'm paying for 4 people, not just myself.  After a while (7 years now) you just start to say, "Meh I'll catch the DVD instead."

[jgsugden]

I think I've been misunderstood here :  I liked Sorcerers Apprentice.  It's actually one of the few Nic Cage films I can stomach.

My point was more "Stop wishing for Highbrow Art in Strange.  You Won't Get It."

Fair enough.  I'm hoping for a departure like Empire Strikes Back, not Momento (not that Momento is High Brow Art).

[Khaldun]

I think I've been misunderstood here :  I liked Sorcerers Apprentice.  It's actually one of the few Nic Cage films I can stomach.

My point was more "Stop wishing for Highbrow Art in Strange.  You Won't Get It."

Dude, you think "And then he fights Baron Mordo and then he fights a demon with a flame face using mystic kung fu and then his hot alien princess lover is dropped into a dimensional toilet bowl and then he meets the spirit of the entire Universe" is Highbrow Art?

I'm just saying that if they want to use the actual stories for a template (which they've done here and there), Strange has a lot of stories that are more personal and more focused on his own antagonists, less on the Third Act in Which the World Is Doomed If You Don't Stop the Bomb/Stop the Villain/Unite the Team. I mean, I'm sure there are going to be stakes other than "Does Dr. Strange survive???" given that he is protecting our dimension and all that. But I can see a film that has a different kind of third act.

[Evildrider]

If you think that introducing Dr. Strange, as the Sorcerer Supreme in the Marvel Universe, without him having some "save the world" aspect in his movie is going to happen.  Keep dreaming. 

[jgsugden]

There are many ways to have a movie climax without a shoot em up fight. I am hoping for something different than the end of Iron Man 3 with magic replacing repulsors.

[Ironwood]

I think I've been misunderstood here :  I liked Sorcerers Apprentice.  It's actually one of the few Nic Cage films I can stomach.

My point was more "Stop wishing for Highbrow Art in Strange.  You Won't Get It."

Dude, you think "And then he fights Baron Mordo and then he fights a demon with a flame face using mystic kung fu and then his hot alien princess lover is dropped into a dimensional toilet bowl and then he meets the spirit of the entire Universe" is Highbrow Art?

I'm just saying that if they want to use the actual stories for a template (which they've done here and there), Strange has a lot of stories that are more personal and more focused on his own antagonists, less on the Third Act in Which the World Is Doomed If You Don't Stop the Bomb/Stop the Villain/Unite the Team. I mean, I'm sure there are going to be stakes other than "Does Dr. Strange survive???" given that he is protecting our dimension and all that. But I can see a film that has a different kind of third act.

No, no, no, you're missing my point.  I GET that you can see a different kind of third act.  There's 50 fucking pages of JGSugden wishing for his own head version of the Marvel Movie Universe.

I get it, ok ?  I can understand you scraping away at your prodigious knowledge of ACTUAL COOL SHIT WRITTEN WELL in comics and saying 'Hey, hope they use that' in the same way as me reading Age of Ultron and saying 'Jesus Fuck, I hope they don't use that.  Ever.  I hope no-one does.  I hope they stop printing it and this ends up being the only copy in the world because I'm just going to take a big Dorito shit and then wipe my claggy arse with these pages because Jesus Fuck Age of Ultron Comic is BAD'.

I get it.

But what I'm saying is that thus far the studio has a formula that works and, if Hollywood has taught us ANYTHING, it's that they will ride it into the fucking GROUND while it still makes money for them.  These movies, though I enjoy them IMMENSELY are making movies with the same formula.  So, until it stops working, stop fucking wishing.  Because you sound like HIM.

And that's not a good thing.

[eldaec]

Dr Strange will be as different as CA2 was a "conspiracy thriller".

[Ironwood]

Well, to be fair, it did have the first two acts with some of the trappings of it, but then went on to the 'kill the death star' portion of the movie.

[eldaec]

Are you typing from the future about Strange?

[Ironwood]

Heh.  Probably.  You can dig these posts up once it hits.

[jgsugden]

Marvel takes more chances than most studios. Some of these directors were out of the action film genre. Talking raccoon and his tree friend. Staying truer to the comic origins than most prior comics. Embracing the core of the characters rather than apologizing for it.

Treating Marvel as if it will follow the rules of every other studio is underestimating them. Heck, we all know where Civil War will end. Would that ever happen to Bond? F13 is a place for usefully cynical commentary. Don't people get tired of generating pointlessly cynical comments?

[Lakov_Sanite]

Marvel takes more chances than most studios. Some of these directors were out of the action film genre. Talking raccoon and his tree friend. Staying truer to the comic origins than most prior comics. Embracing the core of the characters rather than apologizing for it.

Treating Marvel as if it will follow the rules of every other studio is underestimating them. Heck, we all know where Civil War will end. Would that ever happen to Bond? F13 is a place for usefully cynical commentary. Don't people get tired of generating pointlessly cynical comments?

Calling it right now they pull a batman ending and cap is retired somewhere in france with the secret agent girl.

[Lantyssa]

Don't people get tired of generating pointlessly cynical comments?

Nope.

And Zod is right.

[HaemishM]

I expect the big punch up ending of Dr. Strange to involve a giant fuckstupid portal with a giant fuckstupid FlameHead Dormamu crawling out of it, which Strange has to shut with his magic kung-fu lasers. Like the ending of Avengers 1 only with less Alien Cock Ships and more Flamey Demon Head.

[Merusk]

I expect the big punch up ending of Dr. Strange to involve a giant fuckstupid portal with a giant fuckstupid FlameHead Dormamu crawling out of it, which Strange has to shut with his magic kung-fu lasers. Like the ending of Avengers 1 only with less Alien Cock Ships and more Flamey Demon Head.

Avengers 1 AND 2. Though the city was floating, there was still the "we must protect this and then blow that up" mcguffin.

[Khaldun]

So are there any superhero films (aside from comedies) which don't follow the formula, Marvel or otherwise?

I'd argue Dark Knight mostly doesn't--the civilians actually resolve the boat dilemma themselves, and the final confrontation, such as it is, is almost a kind of falling action after the real climax rather than a big "we have to blow up the Death Star" sort of thing.

Batman films generally tend to personalize the final showdown, even the lame ones.

Superman II, the Christopher Reeve one, has a final battle that isn't the big set-piece, it's more modest than what came earlier in the film.

Watchmen, but that almost doesn't count.

And that's about it in terms of what I can think of. The stakes in most others are "there's a bomb/device/threat that's going to kill everyone and in this big roller-coaster action sequence, I/we must stop it".

Frankly, this is true of most action films in whatever genre. It's pretty rare for them to have a plot structure that doesn't do something like this.

[Hutch]

Don't people get tired of generating pointlessly cynical comments?

We have more in common with the Roast reddit than one might think.

[Ironwood]

Yeah, that's kinda my point Khaldun.

[Khaldun]

Well, then, we agree, except:

I enjoy fanwankery of the things of which I am a fan and I confess helplessly that Dr. Strange is for whatever perverse reasons high on my own list;

I actually think the Marvel Studios guys are slightly smarter than your average bear and might not kill their golden goose at the typical rate.

The analogy I'd give on the latter is this: there were a fuckton of Westerns. Lots of them were generic. But scattered in there the smart studios managed to let a few key directors make some really great stuff that either executed the formula so well that it transcended it or defied & subverted the formula or in a few cases came up with a new formula. I think what gave me hope with Marvel Studios was not only hiring James Gunn but giving him a lot of room to do his thing in (mostly) his way. Captain America 2 also gave me some hope. I think maybe they understand that they can't just ape certain genres, but also that they've got to mix it up a bit on plot structures. Daredevil might give them an extra shot of courage, considering how well it's been received.

[HaemishM]

I'm hoping Daredevil gives them the impetus to do more true super heroes (as opposed to SHIELD stuff) on TV, whether it be ABC or Netflix. I think the serial nature of TV is such a better fit for super-heroes than movies.

[Evildrider]

I'm hoping Daredevil gives them the impetus to do more true super heroes (as opposed to SHIELD stuff) on TV, whether it be ABC or Netflix. I think the serial nature of TV is such a better fit for super-heroes than movies.

Well I mean, you have all the Defender stuff happening on Netflix.

[HaemishM]

I mean above street level heroes. Less gritty, more like MCU style heroes only on TV.

[Margalis]

I didn't mean to imply the Marvel movies are bad, just that they are samey.

IM3 was supposed to be very different because it was going to have some Shane Black edge. CA2 was going to be a political thriller. Ant Man was going to be a comedy. In the end they are all the Marvel Movie genre, with maybe a smidgen of some other genre thrown in. Marvel movies have the same color palette, the same level of quippyness, some emotional beats but not enough emotion to actually be a drama, the same "the stakes are both personal and existential" ending.

Doctor Strange isn't going to be like the movie Constantine, for example. It's just not going to happen - just the color palette of Constantine would never happen. The tone is too serous and decidedly un-quippy. I don't think Marvel movies will depart much until they start to fail - then maybe Marvel will experiment.

Marvel movies are sort of like Kevin Smith or Diablo Cody movies - you kind of know what you're getting. That's not bad, maybe, but it's not surprising. They have a strong authorial voice, except that voice doesn't come from the director or writer, it comes from the studio. They are all Kevin Feige movies.

Again, if you like that it's fine. It's why even the worst Marvel movie is still fine. But I'll be shocked if Doctor Strange isn't another fairly standard Marvel movie.

[eldaec]

So are there any superhero films (aside from comedies) which don't follow the formula, Marvel or otherwise?

I'd argue Dark Knight mostly doesn't--the civilians actually resolve the boat dilemma themselves, and the final confrontation, such as it is, is almost a kind of falling action after the real climax rather than a big "we have to blow up the Death Star" sort of thing.

Batman films generally tend to personalize the final showdown, even the lame ones.

Superman II, the Christopher Reeve one, has a final battle that isn't the big set-piece, it's more modest than what came earlier in the film.

Watchmen, but that almost doesn't count.

And that's about it in terms of what I can think of. The stakes in most others are "there's a bomb/device/threat that's going to kill everyone and in this big roller-coaster action sequence, I/we must stop it".

Frankly, this is true of most action films in whatever genre. It's pretty rare for them to have a plot structure that doesn't do something like this.

The best action movies still explode a death star at the end, but manage to keep doing the themes and character growth/conflict that went on in the first half (Dark Knight, X2, spiderman, Star Wars, GotG and to an extent Thor and CA1). Marvel hasn't been great at that - anything with Tony Stark seems to particularly struggle. But it's ok. Because explosions. It's not like the final acts have been as dreadful as DKR, Trek Into Lensflare, X3 or Amazing Spiderman.

[Sir T]

I'd argue X3 was actually not that bad a movie for the first half of it, but it turned into a mess the second Xavier did. The scene with Cyclops by the lake was beautifully done, for example.

[Ironwood]

Trek Into Lensflare

lol

 

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'd argue X3 was actually not that bad a movie for the first half of it, but it turned into a mess the second Xavier did. The scene with Cyclops by the lake was beautifully done, for example.

You mean how they just killed off a main character in the opening scene for no other reason than the actor wanted out?

[Sir T]

He was going off to do Superman Returns and and only had a few days to film it, yeah. But the scene was really beautifully shot. That was my point.

[HaemishM]

I thought that scene was fucking terrible, and not just because Cyclops has always been one of my favorite characters. It felt extremely tacked on and unnecessary.

[Khaldun]

But at least he was going on to a very exciting and complicated role in Superman Returns. That gives it deeper meaning.

[jgsugden]

A shakeup at Marvel that seems to do two things:

1.) TV and Movies are now under different chains of command (Loeb/TV stays in the old structure, Feige/movies is outside the old control chain), and
2.) Potentially opens up the purse strings for the Movies a bit more (this is speculation from a few articles - not sure I believe it) so that talent might be retained beyond current contracts.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/marvel-shake-up-film-chief-819205

[Khaldun]

Interesting. I am guessing that the cheapness has become an issue for the further development of the franchise.

[HaemishM]

If Perlmutter was that cheap, that's probably why a lot of the bigger-name directors bolted after 1 or 2 movies. Directors who make billion-dollar grossing films take exception to being nickel-and-dimed on the sequel. See Favreau and Whedon for good examples.

Feige has made Disney the $4 billion they paid for Marvel back and more. I'm pretty sure after Guardians he could have probably walked into the head muckety-muck's office at Disney film and gotten what he wanted.