Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

[Nayr]

I don't know how often it gets mentioned, but I really appreciate the delicate tuning of the Empire v. Stormcloaks conflict. I think most players would side intuitively with the Stormcloaks, but Ulfric is an egotistical jerk and the Empire does have a point about being the only thing that can keep the Aldmeri Dominion at bay, plus General Tullius comes off as a fairly reasonable sort. On the other other hand, they tried to kill you and I'm sure most players would say 'And I was innocent' in their vision of the backstory. (or at least, 'where's your evidence?')  It's really well-calculated to make either choice plausible to a wide variety of characterizations.

Thalmor, though, those guys were built to be hated.

Ulfric has reason to be the way he is though.

He fought for the Empire in the Great War. He watched his friends die, fellow Nords who fought out of loyalty to the Emperor. He was captured and tortured by Elenwen herself and then released only to find out that the Emperor he'd sworn his fealty to had surrendered and given the Thalmor full permission to strip away his beliefs. I'd feel betrayed too.

That same empire put the player character on a chopping block for being guilty of nothing except crossing the border at the wrong time. Even Hadvar noticed that the player wasn't on their list, but the Imperial Captain was basically "fuck him, we'll kill him anyway just to be safe" and General Tullius was right there, hearing everything, and didn't do a thing to stop it.

Also "keeping the dominion at bay" is not the same as stopping them. And if you raid Elenwen's private files, a Stormcloak victory is just as detrimental to them as an Imperial one.

Not to mention Hammerfell seceded from the Empire after the White-Gold Concordat and fought a war with the Aldmerri Dominion alone. They won and drove the Thalmor out of their lands. If Hammerfell can do it, so can Skyrim.

[Paelos]

From a theoretical viewpoint, the Redguard would have an easier time throwing the Dominion off Hammerfel due to their aptitudes in both physical combat and destructive magic. They would be able to form up ranks of battlemages to take on the magic tossing elves, and cut them down.

The Nords have no such magic, nor do they care about it. In fact many of them fear it. I would doubt they could simply toss a bunch of mages off their island with their martial skills alone.

[Nayr]

From a theoretical viewpoint, the Redguard would have an easier time throwing the Dominion off Hammerfel due to their aptitudes in both physical combat and destructive magic. They would be able to form up ranks of battlemages to take on the magic tossing elves, and cut them down.

The Nords have no such magic, nor do they care about it. In fact many of them fear it. I would doubt they could simply toss a bunch of mages off their island with their martial skills alone.

The Redguards had all of those things when they were fighting the dominion as part of the empire. The Empire still lost. Because Titus Mede II decided he'd rather "negotiate" after he retook the Imperial City than fight the war to the bitter end.

So it's not that anybody lacks the power to defeat the Thalmor, they lost because of remarkably poor leadership.

And btw, Nords have the Voice, Ulfric knows it and can train others to use shouts. And there's also the Dragonborn, who may or may not have Parthurrnax and Odaving on his side. Not to mention the new DLC gives the player the ability to control Dragons.

[koro]

Regarding the Stormcloaks:

[PalmTrees]

When it comes to loot I Always used the 10 value : 1 weight rule. Sell specialty items to the corresponding merchant (weapons and armor to a smith, etc), then unload what's left to a general merchant. No sense using up the general merchant's money on swords because the smith isn't going to buy that scroll. Don't waste perks on barter, eventually you get to a point where you don't need money anymore and it starts piling up and the mobs drop more expensive stuff that you need to do a tour of the cities to unload. Even after three full houses I think my guy was sitting on like 300k with nothing to do with it.

[Paelos]

The Redguards had all of those things when they were fighting the dominion as part of the empire. The Empire still lost. Because Titus Mede II decided he'd rather "negotiate" after he retook the Imperial City than fight the war to the bitter end.

So it's not that anybody lacks the power to defeat the Thalmor, they lost because of remarkably poor leadership.

And btw, Nords have the Voice, Ulfric knows it and can train others to use shouts. And there's also the Dragonborn, who may or may not have Parthurrnax and Odaving on his side. Not to mention the new DLC gives the player the ability to control Dragons.

Shouts are rare though. How much can you train? We don't know that. We don't know how many people can even learn it. There are 4 guys sitting on a mountaintop, and one guy in power. That doesn't indicate to me that the shouts are an incredibly effective defense. I think you're mistaking the Redguard situation, their natural defenses, and the fact they operate in a totally different climate, that gives them a natural advantage in defense against a flimsy elven assault based on magical attacks.

[Khaldun]

I don't know how often it gets mentioned, but I really appreciate the delicate tuning of the Empire v. Stormcloaks conflict. I think most players would side intuitively with the Stormcloaks, but Ulfric is an egotistical jerk and the Empire does have a point about being the only thing that can keep the Aldmeri Dominion at bay, plus General Tullius comes off as a fairly reasonable sort. On the other other hand, they tried to kill you and I'm sure most players would say 'And I was innocent' in their vision of the backstory. (or at least, 'where's your evidence?')  It's really well-calculated to make either choice plausible to a wide variety of characterizations.

Thalmor, though, those guys were built to be hated.

Ulfric has reason to be the way he is though.

He fought for the Empire in the Great War. He watched his friends die, fellow Nords who fought out of loyalty to the Emperor. He was captured and tortured by Elenwen herself and then released only to find out that the Emperor he'd sworn his fealty to had surrendered and given the Thalmor full permission to strip away his beliefs. I'd feel betrayed too.

That same empire put the player character on a chopping block for being guilty of nothing except crossing the border at the wrong time. Even Hadvar noticed that the player wasn't on their list, but the Imperial Captain was basically "fuck him, we'll kill him anyway just to be safe" and General Tullius was right there, hearing everything, and didn't do a thing to stop it.

Also "keeping the dominion at bay" is not the same as stopping them. And if you raid Elenwen's private files, a Stormcloak victory is just as detrimental to them as an Imperial one.

Not to mention Hammerfell seceded from the Empire after the White-Gold Concordat and fought a war with the Aldmerri Dominion alone. They won and drove the Thalmor out of their lands. If Hammerfell can do it, so can Skyrim.

Ulfric is still a colossal douche though. And an egomaniac.

[Sir T]

And a dribbling racist. That's made clear from talking with his followers who don't like what he does to non nords. There's no reason for that in his back story, and there's dark hints that he might start massacring all the non nords in Skyrym if he wins.

The sides are evenly balanced in asshattary so take your choice.

[Tebonas]

Since I was a Nord myself, I just imagine I'd tell Ulfric to get in line if he doesn't want to end up accidently eaten by one or two dragons after we won our independence. I presume my claim would be higher than his is anyway and the people liked me more.

[Fabricated]

Then after all of this, just riding around while you're in your flaming deathgod armor made from ebony twisted with the souls of tormented daedra, blowing up mountains and summoning undead dragons with your voice, a bandit accosts you and demands 20 gold pieces. You attempt to intimidate him...and fail because of level scaling.

[cironian]

You attempt to intimidate him...and fail because of level scaling.

"Pssssh, yeah. Nice try. Everyone knows that the *real* Dragonborn is 10 feet tall and has flames shooting from his eyes at all times."

[Nayr]

And a dribbling racist. That's made clear from talking with his followers who don't like what he does to non nords. There's no reason for that in his back story, and there's dark hints that he might start massacring all the non nords in Skyrym if he wins.

The sides are evenly balanced in asshattary so take your choice.

I've done that. He acts indifferent most of the time, as others say, he treats other races like they don't exist, ignores them. And since his supporters act very racist, and since he turns a blind eye, they go unpunished for their abuses.

But he does show some respect to Delphine, who is a Breton, not a Nord. Could be because she's one of the Blades tho.

You could compare the Stormcloaks to the Terra Firma party in Mass Effect. Terra Firma is portrayed as a racist earth-first group, but if you talk to Ashley about them, you find out that the group's founder wasn't a racist, and just wanted humans to be able to stand on their own two feet. And that the group(like Charles Saracino) twisted around his principles into xenophobia(Thanks to the Illusive Man.)

So Ulfric, not so bad, but after he's gone, his followers will go Nazi on everybody.

[UnSub]

And a dribbling racist. That's made clear from talking with his followers who don't like what he does to non nords. There's no reason for that in his back story, and there's dark hints that he might start massacring all the non nords in Skyrym if he wins.

The sides are evenly balanced in asshattary so take your choice.

I went Empire because:

1) Ulfric was a douchebag, as noted above.

2) Any comparative interactions between Ulfric and the General made the General seem a lot more reasonable.

3) Ulfric looked set to send his people into a war they couldn't possibly win, with a lot of larger ramifications to the world.

4) As mentioned, the Stormcloaks are just waiting to do a lot of ethnic cleansing.

And besides, it didn't really matter what I picked - as the Dragonborn, the world revolves around me.

[JWIV]

And a dribbling racist. That's made clear from talking with his followers who don't like what he does to non nords. There's no reason for that in his back story, and there's dark hints that he might start massacring all the non nords in Skyrym if he wins.

The sides are evenly balanced in asshattary so take your choice.

I went Empire because:

1) Ulfric was a douchebag, as noted above.

2) Any comparative interactions between Ulfric and the General made the General seem a lot more reasonable.

3) Ulfric looked set to send his people into a war they couldn't possibly win, with a lot of larger ramifications to the world.

4) As mentioned, the Stormcloaks are just waiting to do a lot of ethnic cleansing.

And besides, it didn't really matter what I picked - as the Dragonborn, the world revolves around me.

I went Stormcloaks for right now, mostly because I'm playing as an Argonian right now and playing rebellion felt better with them.

[Tebonas]

Good thing you can finish the game without taking sides for those not wanting to decide between rock and hard place.

[Merusk]

I haven't advanced the main storyline beyond escaping and the meet-up afterwards at the first city.  I followed the Stormcloak guy because following the guys who just tried to kill me seemed, well, imbecilic.  The only background I have on any of this is what the NPCs say and the scripted events in cities when you first enter them. 

Given that, the story direction seems to very strongly push you towards siding with the Stormcloaks.  Imperials tried to kill you, strike one against them.   They execute a guy who let Ulfric in and afterwards the citizens all seem to agree it was a fair fight, not an assassination and only one said it was a just execution.  The Imperials have banned worship of some Talos guy, which is just puzzling but seems like a dick move.  The Jarls are varied between playing sides to come out ahead or siding based on personal grudges, so pure politics here as I'd expect and they're no real help. 

However, many of the Nords seem like small-minded xenophobes.  Shoving other races in to small enclaves, threatening them openly, shunning all magic as a coward's tool.  I'm not really inclined to see them gain more power based on this.

Based on where I am right now, though, I think I'd side with the Stormcloaks anyway.  Part of that xenophobia seems to be a reaction to being oppressed, and it's not as if they outright ban magic.  The Imps just feel like the bigger problem, and since I don't know the "history" of the Elder Scrolls world, I sure don't care about a bigger picture that some of you have mentioned.

[Fabricated]

The Imperials basically want to take over the entire world, but generally they've been far less dickish to the majority of the peoples they've conquered. Usually you just get rolled right into the empire and you're a full citizen with rights and the ability to do whatever and typically high ranks aren't usually restricted by race/status.

The empire in Skyrim is in real bad shape and doing some shady shit because of it. They can't afford division now because it'll kill them, and with no dragonborn-descended emperor they don't really have the morale/gravitas they used to so they're being more assholish than usual.

Doesn't mean the empire is GREAT, but they're not actually completely fascist/racist assholes, or at least they weren't always that way. They're well, basically America.

And they did stupid shit like try to colonize/take over the black marsh, which is where the Argonians are from. It's likely gonna get mangled in TES:O but in the lore it's a gigantic fuck-off alien-as-hell looking swamp that's so infested with disease that if you're not Argonian you pretty much fall over dead if you try to walk into it. The empire literally did a Zapp Branigan style invasion of it where they tried to lay roads and invade just by throwing wave after wave of their own men at it to the tune of hundreds of thousands+ people. After they all died and their roads kept sinking into the swamp they pretty much gave up and I think that's about the only time in the lore the empire ever really decides to give up on something they want.

I'm probably mis-remembering half of this shit, so if there's a bigger TES nerd here go ahead and correct this.

[koro]

Regarding the Empire, banning Talos worship, and the selling out to the Thalmor:

It's made pretty clear at various points in-game (in fact, the Emperor himself may even mention it if you talk to him, but I can't remember) that the terrible peace treaty was only signed to prevent the total destruction and enslavement of the Empire and its people and give the Empire time to rest and rebuild and prepare for the inevitable resumption of hostilities.

It's a short term sacrifice to help avert disaster in the long term.

[Paelos]

Titus Mede crushed the Aldmeri forces in Cyrodil before the signing of the treaty at the Battle of the Red Ring. That basically knocked them off their foothold in the Empire, without necessarily stopping the threat. It gave them a bargaining chip in that the Dominion would have to invest more money and resources into a war against a wounded foe. The Empire had lost 3 of it's legions, the Dominion had no immediate foothold. There was essentially a standstill before things could ramp up. So, the peace treaty was signed to keep the Dominion off Empire soil en masse, with the only sacrifice of a religious figure. In logistical terms, it was an easy deal to strike for the army.

Part of the treaty also gave the Dominion much of Hammerfell. Redguards resisted and eventually told the Empire to go fuck itself. The Dominion were beaten back by the Redguards, and had to withdraw from Redguard lands. However, much of the damage was done, because Hammerfell was now independent, and the Empire no long had any chance of pulling them back into the fold. Speculation was that the Domnion saw the Hammerfell parts of the treaty as a win-win. Either they would hold the region themselves, or the Redguards would go independent, but the Empire would lose access no matter what.

[Tebonas]

The Empire lost the Redguard, and the Empire is in serious threat to lose the Nord. Even if not, they lose both Nord and Empire troops to keep Skyim.

Thalmor basically won the upcoming war with that peace treaty. The two conditions they asked were tailor-made to alienate two of the more battle-ready regions of the Empire. While being a minor deity for the Empire at large, Talos is a big thing in Skyrim. They can't take that laying down any more than the Redguard could losing part of Hammerfell.

The Thalmor may be bastards, but they are magnificent bastards.

[Nayr]

Titus Mede crushed the Aldmeri forces in Cyrodil before the signing of the treaty at the Battle of the Red Ring. That basically knocked them off their foothold in the Empire, without necessarily stopping the threat. It gave them a bargaining chip in that the Dominion would have to invest more money and resources into a war against a wounded foe. The Empire had lost 3 of it's legions, the Dominion had no immediate foothold. There was essentially a standstill before things could ramp up. So, the peace treaty was signed to keep the Dominion off Empire soil en masse, with the only sacrifice of a religious figure. In logistical terms, it was an easy deal to strike for the army.

Part of the treaty also gave the Dominion much of Hammerfell. Redguards resisted and eventually told the Empire to go fuck itself. The Dominion were beaten back by the Redguards, and had to withdraw from Redguard lands. However, much of the damage was done, because Hammerfell was now independent, and the Empire no long had any chance of pulling them back into the fold. Speculation was that the Domnion saw the Hammerfell parts of the treaty as a win-win. Either they would hold the region themselves, or the Redguards would go independent, but the Empire would lose access no matter what.

There's a couple other tidbits.

1. The reason the Dominion wanted Talos banned was to cause a schism between the Empire and Skyrim, weakening them both. Talos, in life, was Tiber Septim, a Dragonborn and the man who united Tamriel, creating the Empire. When he died, his soul ascended and became one of the Divines(as evidenced by his role in previous games(Anybody who played Oblivion's "The Knights of the Nine" would know he's legit.) Talos was also a Nord, which is why the people of Skyrim revere him.

2. At the same time, Elenwen had Ulfric Stormcloak brutally interrogated and led him to believe that the info the elves had extracted from him caused the Imperial City to fall, instilling a prejudice against them.

3. At first, everybody basically kept worshiping Talos in secret, but the Thalmor started cracking down, which outraged Ulfric for obvious reasons, and when High-King Torygg refused to secede Skyrim, he challenged him to a traditional duel for power(in the old Nordic traditions, Ulfric winning means that he would be High-King) and killed him, and everybody took it as an assassination.

[Sir T]

TO be honest, I don't see the Thalmor in a great position regardless of the way things go. While the empire is wounded, the Thalmor basically faught a war of conquest and lost every singly bit of their troops in Cyrodil only to basically wind up right back where they started 5 years later gaining effectively nothing bar the right to send people around looking for Talos worshipers, which lasts exactly as long as the empire wants allows it. Regardless of which way the war goes, all of Hammerfell, Skyrim and the the rest of the Empire would immediately unite if they even blink. And once the Skyrim war is over the instability in the empire essentially ends which mean all their maneuvering basically ends up as having everyone pissed at them and the Thalmor not bieng able to do anything. Skyrim's economic and social ties to the empire wont end with independence, and who knows how long Ulfic will last on the throne anyway.

Essentially, the Thalmor have no allies left in the area once Ulfric wins or loses, and who knows what terms Skirym and the empire would come to for peace afterwards. Tossing the white gold concordat for the rest of the empire in exchange for an alliance with Hammerfell against incursions by the Thalmor? Hell yes, why not. We have seen they cant even stand agains Hammerfell by itself after their losses against the Empire

The ending of the war in Skyrym is a disaster for the Thalmor no matter which way it goes. That's they used Ulfric as their agent in destablising the region. The people getting kidnapped would have been tolerated as they were acting against the rebel stormcloaks, but can you actually see that bieng allowed to go on after peace, no matter who wins?

So basically the Thalmor are screwed in terms of conquest for now.

[Sheepherder]

From a theoretical viewpoint, the Redguard would have an easier time throwing the Dominion off Hammerfel due to their aptitudes in both physical combat and destructive magic. They would be able to form up ranks of battlemages to take on the magic tossing elves, and cut them down.

The Nords have no such magic, nor do they care about it. In fact many of them fear it. I would doubt they could simply toss a bunch of mages off their island with their martial skills alone.

"I'm Trayvond the Redguard, Mages Guild Evoker. Surprised? Yes, you don't see many Redguards in the Mages Guild. We don't much like spellcasters in Hammerfell. Wizards steal souls and tamper with minds. If you use magic, you're weak or wicked. My family didn't approve of my vocation, so I had to come to Cyrodiil for my education. I admit... I still have strong prejudices against necromancy, summoning, and illusion. Profaning the remains or souls of the dead is just wrong. And I'm uneasy about tampering with other's minds and trafficking with Daedra."

[Sheepherder]

While the empire is wounded, the Thalmor basically faught a war of conquest and lost every singly bit of their troops in Cyrodil only to basically wind up right back where they started 5 years later gaining effectively nothing bar the right to send people around looking for Talos worshipers, which lasts exactly as long as the empire wants dragonborn allows it.

Does not last long.

[Paelos]

From a theoretical viewpoint, the Redguard would have an easier time throwing the Dominion off Hammerfel due to their aptitudes in both physical combat and destructive magic. They would be able to form up ranks of battlemages to take on the magic tossing elves, and cut them down.

The Nords have no such magic, nor do they care about it. In fact many of them fear it. I would doubt they could simply toss a bunch of mages off their island with their martial skills alone.

"I'm Trayvond the Redguard, Mages Guild Evoker. Surprised? Yes, you don't see many Redguards in the Mages Guild. We don't much like spellcasters in Hammerfell. Wizards steal souls and tamper with minds. If you use magic, you're weak or wicked. My family didn't approve of my vocation, so I had to come to Cyrodiil for my education. I admit... I still have strong prejudices against necromancy, summoning, and illusion. Profaning the remains or souls of the dead is just wrong. And I'm uneasy about tampering with other's minds and trafficking with Daedra."

They don't think of Destructive magic as "spellcasting" though in the Redguard culture, it's just another weapon. They think about summoning ghosts and shit like that as profaine.

[Nayr]

One other thing. Even if it's implied a little that the Stormcloaks support ethnic cleansing as the worst case scenario and mass deportation as the best case. It's better than the Thalmor who want the complete and total genocide of the human race, Argonians, and Khajit, and to establish Altmer supremacy over all of the lesser elven races - Dunmer, Orsimer, Falmer, and Bosmer.

Also fun fact: Elenwen, the leader of the Thalmor in Skyrim, is voiced by Jean Gilpin, who voices Knight-Commander Meredith in Dragon Age II. Which is hilarious given the parallels between the two characters. Personality-wise, they're exactly alike(mean, oppressive, genocidal), but would hate each other because Meredith is a human who hates mages, and Elenwen is a mage who hates humans.

[Sir T]

While the empire is wounded, the Thalmor basically faught a war of conquest and lost every singly bit of their troops in Cyrodil only to basically wind up right back where they started 5 years later gaining effectively nothing bar the right to send people around looking for Talos worshipers, which lasts exactly as long as the empire wants dragonborn allows it.

Does not last long.

I support your product and or service, good sir.

[Wasted]

I was somewhat disappointed when I made a high elf that I intended to play as the worst kind of racist bastard that I had no options to be friendly with the Thalmor.

[Merusk]

It probably mirrors my disappointment that as an Imperial I was going to be executed by my own kind.  Which added to my character's, "Fuck these guys..." mindset.

[Sheepherder]

They don't think of Destructive magic as "spellcasting" though in the Redguard culture, it's just another weapon. They think about summoning ghosts and shit like that as profaine.

Redguards are loud, loutish, and boastful. With education and discipline, they make passable mercenaries. They are stubborn and bloody-minded, but courageous and tough. They have little aptitude for the arcane arts, but they are quick enough to make good archers and skirmishers. They have little respect for law or tradition, and are often successful as smugglers and bandits.

Copypasta directly from the TES3 Editor.  Generic dark elf noble text.

[Paelos]

They gave them a destruction bonus in Skyrim though.

[Ingmar]

There also doesn't have to be any particular contradiction there, given the amount of time that passes between games. Cultures change.

[Khaldun]

Then after all of this, just riding around while you're in your flaming deathgod armor made from ebony twisted with the souls of tormented daedra, blowing up mountains and summoning undead dragons with your voice, a bandit accosts you and demands 20 gold pieces. You attempt to intimidate him...and fail because of level scaling.

Since each Elder Scrolls game jumps the timeline by quite a bit, I'm hoping the next one will have some throwaway dialogue about how in faraway Skyrim, bears and sabre cats mysteriously went extinct hundreds of years ago.

[Khaldun]

Also on the Empire/Stormcloak thing, another nice touch is that the most sympathetic Jarl is in the first city you come to and the first place (the only place pre-DLC) you had a home of your own--and he perfectly balances a loyalty to Nordic culture, an interest in Talon worship, a pragmatic dedication to the Empire and personal dislike for Ulfric. He's a great mirror for the player's own ambivalence. The other Jarls are also very nicely balanced in terms of unappealing and appealing personalities on each side.

The cities and regions also have really nicely distinct feelings. I could spend all day killing Forsaken, for example...I hate those fuckers not only for their nutbaggery but also because they have the discourtesy to have such bad loot.

[rk47]

They gave them a destruction bonus in Skyrim though.

Ever played Redguard?