Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

[Ingmar]

Overall Steam is probably still a plus for the big games too. They have a MUCH longer tail than they used to, it used to be that a game that was over a year old was absent from stores entirely. The problem exists in the short term, I am guessing - a game might eventually still be profitable since people will be buying it in Steam sales and such, but in the short term company goes ARGH FAILURE and lays everyone off, cancels DLC, or whatever.

[shiznitz]

I wonder if there isn't a nice little business model in buying up old game rights for the long term Steam sales when gaming houses go boom.

[Ingmar]

The soundtrack alone is worth $20!

[Amaron]

Buying at full price is almost crazy these days, and that's very bad for the industry... sort of.

It's hardly crazy. There's a large social aspect to playing games sometime before they go on mega sale.  Even for single player.  It just looks bad as a percentage of total purchases. 

It also makes most of us just scoff at people who whine about no PC game resales.  Choosing between mega sales and Gamestop is probably the biggest no-brainer in the industry.  They keep desperately looking for a way to bring the practice to consoles for a reason.

[KallDrexx]

The only two games I've paid full price for in the past 2 years are Diablo 3 and Guild Wars 2, because both are unlikely to ever go on sale (GW1 took forever to go on sale, and blizzard games don't go on sale for many many years).

Everything else I buy used on amazon when they get to the $10-20 range.

Edit: not sure how you aren't crazy to buy games at full price unless you truly don't have a backlog or it's a multiplayer game that needs a high population to be fun

[Amaron]

Edit: not sure how you aren't crazy to buy games at full price unless you truly don't have a backlog

Every time there's a steam sale everyone's practically bragging about all the games they bought they'll never play.  Backlog doesn't really come into it.

[lamaros]

Edit: not sure how you aren't crazy to buy games at full price unless you truly don't have a backlog

Every time there's a steam sale everyone's practically bragging about all the games they bought they'll never play.  Backlog doesn't really come into it.

I've got 112 hours out of mine so far, with only Jade Empire yet to be given a run. For $30 or whatever it was I call it value!

[Simond]

I wonder if there isn't a nice little business model in buying up old game rights for the long term Steam sales when gaming houses go boom.

It's called GOG. You may have heard of it. 

And Steam is still a net positive for (non-EA/Actiblizzion) publishers because a sale at a discounted price is still a sale rather than someone just not buying it or even pirating a copy. If it wasn't a positive, they wouldn't be doing it.

[Merusk]

The thing that shows me just how hard publishers were raping developers are the successful indy shops selling their games - which are AAA quality - for $10-$15.   

Torchlight, Orcs Must Die, Magica come to my mind and I'm sure there's more.  All were games I bought for a fraction of a big-pub game and got the same amount of play-time out of but a much better gaming experience.

Sure, they don't have the 'big name' voice actors or some of the flashier bullshit wrapped-up in modern games.  However, I think they illustrated that you don't need all that to make a good game that appeals to a wider audience.  A focused, well-balanced experience will get you play and sales. Bean counters just don't know that.

[amiable]

As Ruvaldt said, Skyrim had very, very few problems even at release (actually that was my experience with F:NV too.) It's one of the best games I've ever played. If that isn't worth supporting with a full price purchase, this industry is fucked.

Don't get me wrong, Skyrim is a wonderful game that I have sunk well over 200 hours into already!  (I did pay full price for Skyrim by-the-by).  My point isn't that the games aren't necissarily worth full price, my point is why even take the risk?  For every Skyrim there are 5 Dragon Age2's, Mass Effect 3's, Civ 5's and Diablo 3's.   All the games I just cited were released from publishers that I (had) considered competent folks who don't push out crap, but i ended up dissappointed anyway.

If I spend 10 dollars on a game + all DLC's and it turns out to be crap and I only get 4-5 game hours of play out of it, I don't consider it a big loss.  If I spend 70+ dollars I do.  Every game nowdays ships with a lot of bugs, even Skyrim.  I had crash bugs until patch 1.3 and there are still annoying bugs and gamplay problems in the game (npc companions don't level properly, Destruction magic is poorly balanced, etc...).  Why pay full price now for an incomplete game if I can wait year and pay 10% of the price for a better product?  The only thing it costs me is patience.

[Amaron]

Why pay full price now for an incomplete game if I can wait year and pay 10% of the price for a better product?  The only thing it costs me is patience.

You shouldn't if all it costs you is patience.  For other people there are other factors clearly.  Playing a game at the right time (so I can fit everything in) is a big deal to me for instance.  Other people want the watercooler effect.   Games are going to continue selling well on day 1 (if they are worth it) for those and many other reasons.

The only part of the industry troubled by this is the part that keeps pumping out shitty games.  Everyone waits for word of mouth now and won't touch that crap unless it goes on deep discounting.

[Lantyssa]

The thing that shows me just how hard publishers were raping developers are the successful indy shops selling their games - which are AAA quality - for $10-$15.   

Much like healthcare, the cost of using big-name publishers is their overhead.  Once upon a time having one meant the difference between possibly getting noticed, and selling five copies.

Steam has changed that.

[Ingmar]

As Ruvaldt said, Skyrim had very, very few problems even at release (actually that was my experience with F:NV too.) It's one of the best games I've ever played. If that isn't worth supporting with a full price purchase, this industry is fucked.

Don't get me wrong, Skyrim is a wonderful game that I have sunk well over 200 hours into already!  (I did pay full price for Skyrim by-the-by).  My point isn't that the games aren't necissarily worth full price, my point is why even take the risk?  For every Skyrim there are 5 Dragon Age2's, Mass Effect 3's, Civ 5's and Diablo 3's.   All the games I just cited were released from publishers that I (had) considered competent folks who don't push out crap, but i ended up dissappointed anyway.

If I spend 10 dollars on a game + all DLC's and it turns out to be crap and I only get 4-5 game hours of play out of it, I don't consider it a big loss.  If I spend 70+ dollars I do.  Every game nowdays ships with a lot of bugs, even Skyrim.  I had crash bugs until patch 1.3 and there are still annoying bugs and gamplay problems in the game (npc companions don't level properly, Destruction magic is poorly balanced, etc...).  Why pay full price now for an incomplete game if I can wait year and pay 10% of the price for a better product?  The only thing it costs me is patience.

I liked and have logged 80+ hours in all 4 of those games.  

Watercooler effect and no-accidental-spoilers effect are important to me, though.

[LK]

As a poor gamer who doesn't want to pirate and is willing to be patient, I picked up a half-dozen AAA titles from the last year for under 50 bucks that had hundreds of hours of game play. When I had a lot of money, I wouldn't even think of picking up the games only because I was impatient and part of the hype machine.

I do miss the watercooler effect, but the discussions over games drive me insane now. I used to be a diehard loretard, but now, not so much.

[Sir T]

What, the great stories of "Princess Moretits and the dashing hero Phal Lus and their struggle against the evil Cloudylord Saw-Ron" aren't inspiring you any longer?

[LK]

Yeah, most game stories are shit. But I grew up dumb, I guess.

[Sir T]

Ok some comments on the DLC. With spoiler tag for those that care

[cmlancas]

I guess I should be grateful they don't sparkle.

Did you suddenly feel like playing baseball in a thunderstorm?

[Kail]

Ok some comments on the DLC. With spoiler tag for those that care

My take:

[Tebonas]

I'm a Werewolf during the DLC, so I can tell you you still have to reequip all your armor after you change back.

Good thing I stay in Human form and just enjoy the Disease immunity it bestows upon me.

[amiable]

Where vampires really become good is with the necromage perk.  since you are undead the perk efects you...  what does this mean?  Greater healing and longer spell effects, but more importnatly all enchantments on your itmes are increased 25% if you equip them after you have vampirism+perk.  this also apllies to some abilities you get in game such as the lord stone perk.  You can become ungodly powerful if you do this right.

[brellium]

Where vampires really become good is with the necromage perk.  since you are undead the perk efects you...  what does this mean?  Greater healing and longer spell effects, but more importnatly all enchantments on your itmes are increased 25% if you equip them after you have vampirism+perk.  this also apllies to some abilities you get in game such as the lord stone perk.  You can become ungodly powerful if you do this right.

Soooo...

Full Alchemy crafting set, use set to make + enchant potions, to make new set of alchemy/smithing gear.

Might be worth it to see if I can get from 250 damage on my 1h to 350 damage.

[amiable]

Where vampires really become good is with the necromage perk.  since you are undead the perk efects you...  what does this mean?  Greater healing and longer spell effects, but more importnatly all enchantments on your itmes are increased 25% if you equip them after you have vampirism+perk.  this also apllies to some abilities you get in game such as the lord stone perk.  You can become ungodly powerful if you do this right.

Soooo...

Full Alchemy crafting set, use set to make + enchant potions, to make new set of alchemy/smithing gear.

Might be worth it to see if I can get from 250 damage on my 1h to 350 damage.

Yeah, among other things.  Lets say you have a set of gear that gives you a total of +120% one handed damage.  If you are a Vampire with Necromage the same gear would give you a 150% bonus (25% of 120 being 30, 30+120 being 150).  You can now get 0% casting cost on a spell school with just 3 27% reduction items.  Vampire + necromage really is amazing.

[Rendakor]

Are there any new character abilities for someone who is neither a Vampire nor Werewolf?

[Kail]

A bit, they added Dragonbone weapons for you to craft if you have the Dragon Armor smithing perk, and there's the new crossbow weapon.  And there are some new shouts and some new spells (mostly undead killing or healing or summoning spells, notably the new summon for a skeletal horse to use as a mount).  But it's probably not going to rock your world or anything if you're staying away from the new quests.

[Rendakor]

Dragonbone weapons were necessary so I'm thankful for that; I am looking forward to the new quests but have no interest in either of the transformations since they don't suit my playstyle (stealth archer).

[Ingmar]

SirT:

Being a vampire was an awful choice before Dawnguard, the changes make it actually worth messing around with. I don't think it has shit to do with Twilight fans.  And you're still crippled with zero regen of any kind in sunlight, transforming so you can actually use your powers will cause everyone to attack you, etc. It's much more on par with the werewolf in terms of being an OK choice to keep it now. Sure, maybe it's a little OP, but it isn't like you can't make yourself Superhero McInvulnerable without it anyway.

[Amaron]

I don't think it has shit to do with Twilight fans. 

The vampire transformation makes that pretty obvious.  Nothing could be more calculated to turn off female teenagers imagining hunky vampire guys.

[Sir T]

Meh, I was just pissed about the removal of everyone attacking you at stage 4. Its not like feeding was a big problem anyway, at least for me. Feeding doesn't break invisibility, for example, which you can get with potions and the loads of Vampire dust you are picking up in the quest :)

Playing a Darkelf will invalidate the fire resistance penalty as well, and you can still use your histskin power to regenerate in sunlight once a day if you are Argonian.

[Tebonas]

Ingmars point, and I tend to agree with that, is that there are a zillion ways you can be comically overpowered in this game. And why not, its a single player sandbox, so you can choose which way you do or don't cheese. I would even go as far and say that was always a hallmark of the Elder Scroll Games. Permainvisibility and helpless enemies in Morrowind anyone?

This is just way one-zillion-and-one to totally dominate the game. Using it just shows weakness of character, not a fault in the game design 

[amiable]

Ingmars point, and I tend to agree with that, is that there are a zillion ways you can be comically overpowered in this game. And why not, its a single player sandbox, so you can choose which way you do or don't cheese. I would even go as far and say that was always a hallmark of the Elder Scroll Games. Permainvisibility and helpless enemies in Morrowind anyone?

This is just way one-zillion-and-one to totally dominate the game. Using it just shows weakness of character, not a fault in the game design 

Pretty much this.  I mean in all the elder Scroll games (save maybe for Oblivion) you are some fated badass who is destined to have a huge impact on the world, so why not be overpowered?   Each new way to be overpowered brings its own joy whether it is by being a nigh invisible archer who can one-shot every enemy in the game from stealth or a badass necromancer with an army of thralls who do his killing for him.

[brellium]

Ingmars point, and I tend to agree with that, is that there are a zillion ways you can be comically overpowered in this game. And why not, its a single player sandbox, so you can choose which way you do or don't cheese. I would even go as far and say that was always a hallmark of the Elder Scroll Games. Permainvisibility and helpless enemies in Morrowind anyone?

This is just way one-zillion-and-one to totally dominate the game. Using it just shows weakness of character, not a fault in the game design 

I was always fond of the 30,000 point ability potions that could last a week to a month in that game.

[brellium]

or...

The point system for enchanting, I had a nice daedric tower shield 180 enchanting points, 1 click would trigger a damage spell that fired off 5 different damage spells at 30 points of damage with a 20 foot radius.

[Sir T]

Oh one other thing that was added as well in the DLC. YOu can hit things while on horseback. Woohoo.

But yeah fair enough :) I Still miss the ability to flying from Morrowind. And the ability to jump over tall buildings... :P

[Amaron]

The point system for enchanting, I had a nice daedric tower shield 180 enchanting points, 1 click would trigger a damage spell that fired off 5 different damage spells at 30 points of damage with a 20 foot radius.

That brings me back to Morrowind.  I'd steal some expensive soul stones and make some ridiculous gloves that would just spam out a nuke.  Made the whole game easy mode at the start.